CCI Digest 850 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke by "Tony Grange-Bennett" 2) Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke by Nick Forder 3) Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke by "Tony Grange-Bennett" 4) RE: "Finest" squadron? by "John Grech" 5) RE: "Finest" squadron? by Nick Forder 6) RE: "Finest" squadron? by Gregory Alegi 7) RE: "Finest" squadron? by "John Grech" 8) Re: An old chestnut by "Andy Kemp" 9) Re: An old chestnut by Nick Forder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:48:09 -0000 From: "Tony Grange-Bennett" To: Subject: Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke Message-ID: <001701c2ee05$1bfe6820$09219fd4@oemcomputer> Nick, thanks for your further notes on RE Duke. I see we have a slight variation as to the date of his fatal accident. You have 4 April 1922 whereas I had 7 April 1922. The location ties up well. Grandvilliers is about 4 kms north of Thieuloy-St. Antoine and is the larger of the two places. The railway line comes in from the west about 1 km to the south of Grandvilliers and then turns south to pass about 1 km to the east of Thieuloy-St. Antoine so he probably came down somewhere between the two. But which way was he going? I have no knowledge of Daimler Airways operations, but presume he was flying on a London-Paris route. And can you tell me which aerodrome Daimler flew from in England? Regards Tony ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:51:22 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A57@EXCHANGE> Tony Duke would have been flying between Croydon and Le Bourget. I'll check the date. Would you like a copy of the 'work in progress' on Daimler Airway ? Nick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Grange-Bennett [mailto:TonyGB@graben.force9.co.uk] Sent: 19 March 2003 10:47 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke Nick, thanks for your further notes on RE Duke. I see we have a slight variation as to the date of his fatal accident. You have 4 April 1922 whereas I had 7 April 1922. The location ties up well. Grandvilliers is about 4 kms north of Thieuloy-St. Antoine and is the larger of the two places. The railway line comes in from the west about 1 km to the south of Grandvilliers and then turns south to pass about 1 km to the east of Thieuloy-St. Antoine so he probably came down somewhere between the two. But which way was he going? I have no knowledge of Daimler Airways operations, but presume he was flying on a London-Paris route. And can you tell me which aerodrome Daimler flew from in England? Regards Tony ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:23:32 -0000 From: "Tony Grange-Bennett" To: Subject: Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke Message-ID: <000601c2ee12$5bb1dbc0$01299fd4@oemcomputer> Nick Thank you for the offer of the Daimler 'work-in-progress.' Yes, I would very much like to receive a copy. Regards Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: 19 March 2003 11:03 Subject: [CCI] Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke > Tony > > Duke would have been flying between Croydon and Le Bourget. I'll check the > date. Would you like a copy of the 'work in progress' on Daimler Airway ? > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:20:25 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: Subject: RE: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <002401c2ee1a$4d5e47e0$b97c69d5@your9al5izx2s9> I might add that 66 sqn had a quite fine footie team in 1918 playing their home games not to far away from Milan ! John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:26 AM Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > Jay > > If you want to write it, I'll buy a copy ! > > However, such a thing would not be 'conclusive' because squadrons existed > for different periods of time and undertook different duties at different > times against different opposition. Look at 24 Squadron's use of the DH2, > its initial success, its decline against the Albatros and Halberstadt and > then its record with the DH5. > > BTW I mentioned Gregory's comment about Milan v Man U to one of the other > curators here. Her response (after I had explained the context) was that she > firmly believed that even 66 Squadron could field a team to beat Milan ! > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] > Sent: 18 March 2003 18:11 > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? > > > Hello all, just a thought. > Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. > sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks > Jay Gilmour > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:16:25 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A61@EXCHANGE> John I think that Andrea was suggesting that the same 1918 team could still beat the current Milan team... Nick -----Original Message----- From: John Grech [mailto:john.grech@ntlworld.com] Sent: 19 March 2003 13:21 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? I might add that 66 sqn had a quite fine footie team in 1918 playing their home games not to far away from Milan ! John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:26 AM Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > Jay > > If you want to write it, I'll buy a copy ! > > However, such a thing would not be 'conclusive' because squadrons existed > for different periods of time and undertook different duties at different > times against different opposition. Look at 24 Squadron's use of the DH2, > its initial success, its decline against the Albatros and Halberstadt and > then its record with the DH5. > > BTW I mentioned Gregory's comment about Milan v Man U to one of the other > curators here. Her response (after I had explained the context) was that she > firmly believed that even 66 Squadron could field a team to beat Milan ! > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] > Sent: 18 March 2003 18:11 > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? > > > Hello all, just a thought. > Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. > sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks > Jay Gilmour > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:52:33 +0100 From: Gregory Alegi To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: Nick Yes, news of Milan's defeat last night has reached the shores of the Tiber, let alone the Piave. Still, I am sure even Barker had his bad days. But in the end, he survived the war which his side won. Reliable sources tell me that von Richthofen did not survive the war which his side lost. By the way, and totally off-topic. Milan, Inter, Genoa and a whole group of other Italian clubs were founded around the turn of the century as football and cricket clubs by British expatriates. It is no wonder that cricket did not catch on, but it is very amusing to read the early team rosters: there is hardly an Italian name to be found! On the other hand, the very first player of Lazio (meaning the chap wearing no. 1 on his jersey in the very first game) was one Giuseppe Valle, later a distinguished airship pilot in WW1, chief of Air Staff under Balbo, then undersecretary of Aeronautics up to 1939. The captain of the Lazio team which won the championship in 1974 then became a DC-9 captain with Ati and Alitalia. Gregory >John > >I think that Andrea was suggesting that the same 1918 team could still beat >the current Milan team... > >Nick > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Grech [mailto:john.grech@ntlworld.com] >Sent: 19 March 2003 13:21 >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > > >I might add that 66 sqn had a quite fine footie team in 1918 playing their >home games not to far away from Milan ! >John >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Nick Forder" >To: "Multiple recipients of list" >Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:26 AM >Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > > >> Jay >> >> If you want to write it, I'll buy a copy ! >> >> However, such a thing would not be 'conclusive' because squadrons existed >> for different periods of time and undertook different duties at different >> times against different opposition. Look at 24 Squadron's use of the DH2, >> its initial success, its decline against the Albatros and Halberstadt and >> then its record with the DH5. >> >> BTW I mentioned Gregory's comment about Milan v Man U to one of the other >> curators here. Her response (after I had explained the context) was that >she >> firmly believed that even 66 Squadron could field a team to beat Milan ! >> >> Nick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] >> Sent: 18 March 2003 18:11 >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? >> >> >> Hello all, just a thought. >> Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. >> sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks >> Jay Gilmour >> >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:11:24 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: Subject: RE: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <003401c2ee21$6d1a8060$b97c69d5@your9al5izx2s9> I agree ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:27 PM Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > John > > I think that Andrea was suggesting that the same 1918 team could still beat > the current Milan team... > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Grech [mailto:john.grech@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 19 March 2003 13:21 > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > > > I might add that 66 sqn had a quite fine footie team in 1918 playing their > home games not to far away from Milan ! > John > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Forder" > To: "Multiple recipients of list" > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:26 AM > Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" squadron? > > > > Jay > > > > If you want to write it, I'll buy a copy ! > > > > However, such a thing would not be 'conclusive' because squadrons existed > > for different periods of time and undertook different duties at different > > times against different opposition. Look at 24 Squadron's use of the DH2, > > its initial success, its decline against the Albatros and Halberstadt and > > then its record with the DH5. > > > > BTW I mentioned Gregory's comment about Milan v Man U to one of the other > > curators here. Her response (after I had explained the context) was that > she > > firmly believed that even 66 Squadron could field a team to beat Milan ! > > > > Nick > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] > > Sent: 18 March 2003 18:11 > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? > > > > > > Hello all, just a thought. > > Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. > > sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks > > Jay Gilmour > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:23:33 -0000 From: "Andy Kemp" To: Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <000201c2ee22$cf34adb0$0100a8c0@DAD> Nick I'll see what I can find in the way of quotes from the "library". I'm off work with a crocked back just now, so although I'm moving slowly, at least I'm at home and in reach of the books :-) Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:10 AM Subject: [CCI] Re: An old chestnut > Andy > > I wish I had more for this sort of thing too ! It is (probably) going to be > Wed next week before I can devote any time to looking for the file (if I > still have it). > > The most difficult thing to 'reconstruct' will be the 'quotes' on camouflage > and markings. However, this will be ideal for the eGroup discussion ! > > What I am looking for is attributable quotes along the lines of "as soon as > I saw the all red triplane I knew it had to be von R" or "I could barely > discern the Hannover against the backdrop of the spring wheat crop". Get the > idea ? > > Over to you.... > > Nick > > PS I may be doing some Army/Navy List (and possibly Army MIC)research over > the long weekend if anyone needs anything looking up. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:35:23 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A65@EXCHANGE> Andy I seem to recall finding good examples in 'The Red Air Fighter', 'Air Command' (Collishaw) and (possibly) Alex Revell's book on the Maxwell brothers; so there's a start for you. I think that it is important to keep the grey matter active even though you are malingering. I injured my knee moving a 1905 Royce before Xmas but continued working (probably why it still isn't quite right !)as I couldn't face the prospect of daytime TV ! Nick -----Original Message----- From: Andy Kemp [mailto:andy.kemp@mail.com] Sent: 19 March 2003 14:22 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: An old chestnut Nick I'll see what I can find in the way of quotes from the "library". I'm off work with a crocked back just now, so although I'm moving slowly, at least I'm at home and in reach of the books :-) Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:10 AM Subject: [CCI] Re: An old chestnut > Andy > > I wish I had more for this sort of thing too ! It is (probably) going to be > Wed next week before I can devote any time to looking for the file (if I > still have it). > > The most difficult thing to 'reconstruct' will be the 'quotes' on camouflage > and markings. However, this will be ideal for the eGroup discussion ! > > What I am looking for is attributable quotes along the lines of "as soon as > I saw the all red triplane I knew it had to be von R" or "I could barely > discern the Hannover against the backdrop of the spring wheat crop". Get the > idea ? > > Over to you.... > > Nick > > PS I may be doing some Army/Navy List (and possibly Army MIC)research over > the long weekend if anyone needs anything looking up. > > > ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 850 *********************