CCI Digest 849 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: An old chestnut by Nick Forder 2) RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? by Nick Forder 3) Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke by Nick Forder 4) Re: An old chestnut by Dick Bolt 5) Re: An old chestnut by Nick Forder 6) RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? by "John Grech" 7) RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? by Gregory Alegi 8) by "John Grech" 9) Re: by Gregory Alegi 10) "Finest" squadron? by "Jay Gilmour" 11) Re: "Finest" squadron? by peter.lambert@us.army.mil 12) Re: "Finest" squadron? by "John Grech" 13) Re: An old chestnut by "Andy Kemp" 14) Re: Re Hinchliffe by "johnbarfoot" 15) Re: An old chestnut by Nick Forder 16) RE: "Finest" squadron? by Nick Forder 17) Re: "Finest" squadron? by Nick Forder 18) C&C AGM by Nick Forder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:01:28 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A26@EXCHANGE> If only the exhibition which Fergus Read, Colin Baxter and I developed for the RAF Museum 10+ years ago had not been 'chopped' at the eleventh hour by the RAF Museum... The exhibition was to examine the development of camouflage and markings on WW1 aircraft, using the Cross & Cockade emblem as a motif, with quotes from pilots, examples from nature (camouflage and the coloring of wasps etc) and simple interactives. The funding for this was to come from C&CI. Perhaps it is worth revisiting as a website development ? Trouble is, I think that I dumped all the notes 5 years ago when I moved... Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:52:42 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A24@EXCHANGE> I rather think that John was stating a (not totally unbiased) opinion ! I used to have dealings with a retired Major General, who was not only Colonel of my Regiment but also headed the 'Cavalry Colonels'. He refered to every regiment as being 'fine', as indeed they are; though not always all the time ! The RAF Squadron system has always been slightly unusual. It equates to an Army company (or squadron if you are cavalry) and so is a much smaller unit, with more regular changes of personnel and is more likely to experience periods of 'suspended animation' (though tends to escape the confusion of amalgamation). Objectively speaking, the statement 'X Squadron is the finest the RFC/RAF ever had' is about as easy to justify as the claim that Man U is a better club than either Liverpool or Arsenal ! Nick -----Original Message----- From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] Sent: 14 March 2003 19:29 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] "Finest" fighter sqn? John Grech wrote: > Hi all, Collier served with 66 squadron (Perhaps the finest fighter squadron > the RFC/RAF had?) Interesting question. How does one evaluate a squadron's performance/contribution? If the primary criterion is 'victories', do they follow the flyers (a la Bishop), or should they remain with the squadron. How do we assign a value to the successful raids on dirigible sheds and recon information that allowed/prevented major assaults. What measures should be applied? Thank you, John. I'll have to give that some thought. Best, Jay Gilmour ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:06:55 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: Daimler Staff - RE Duke Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A27@EXCHANGE> Tony Many thanks for this. From my notes, this is what happened to Duke : "Tragedy struck only two days after services began (4 April 1922)when Daimler lost its first aircraft. This was the DH18A G-EAOW. Piloted by Robin E Duke the DH18A collided with Farman Goliath F-GEAD in bad visibility near Grandvilliers in Northern France. The pilots of both aircraft had been navigating by following the same railway line. Both aircraft crashed and burned. Duke and five passengers were killed. " Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:51:38 -0800 From: Dick Bolt To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <3E77327A.705A76A8@his.com> I am quite interested in this topic. Dick Nick Forder wrote: > If only the exhibition which Fergus Read, Colin Baxter and I developed for > the RAF Museum 10+ years ago had not been 'chopped' at the eleventh hour by > the RAF Museum... > > The exhibition was to examine the development of camouflage and markings on > WW1 aircraft, using the Cross & Cockade emblem as a motif, with quotes from > pilots, examples from nature (camouflage and the coloring of wasps etc) and > simple interactives. The funding for this was to come from C&CI. > > Perhaps it is worth revisiting as a website development ? Trouble is, I > think that I dumped all the notes 5 years ago when I moved... > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:17:12 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A3A@EXCHANGE> Dick I'll have a look through the files in the next week or so to see if I can find anything. If not I will see what I can do to 'reconstruct' the project. Nick Anyone else interested in this ? Is it practical to look at this sort of thing for the website Andy ? -----Original Message----- From: Dick Bolt [mailto:dickbolt@his.com] Sent: 18 March 2003 11:59 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: An old chestnut I am quite interested in this topic. Dick Nick Forder wrote: > If only the exhibition which Fergus Read, Colin Baxter and I developed for > the RAF Museum 10+ years ago had not been 'chopped' at the eleventh hour by > the RAF Museum... > > The exhibition was to examine the development of camouflage and markings on > WW1 aircraft, using the Cross & Cockade emblem as a motif, with quotes from > pilots, examples from nature (camouflage and the coloring of wasps etc) and > simple interactives. The funding for this was to come from C&CI. > > Perhaps it is worth revisiting as a website development ? Trouble is, I > think that I dumped all the notes 5 years ago when I moved... > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:52:10 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: Subject: RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? Message-ID: <00a101c2ed5d$f4a8cd80$b97c69d5@your9al5izx2s9> Nick "biased opinion", I suppose it is, someone has to stick up for the squadrons in the "Side shows". (not that this was the question) Looking at 66 in Italy, they seem to have a very good "espirt de corps" this was reflected through the squadron journal, the wing as a whole seemed to enjoy the sporting competitions organised between the squadrons and other units. This might have rubbed off on some of the other squadrons in theatre as there was quite a bit of movement of personnel between them. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:14 AM Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? > I rather think that John was stating a (not totally unbiased) opinion ! > > I used to have dealings with a retired Major General, who was not only > Colonel of my Regiment but also headed the 'Cavalry Colonels'. He refered to > every regiment as being 'fine', as indeed they are; though not always all > the time ! > > The RAF Squadron system has always been slightly unusual. It equates to an > Army company (or squadron if you are cavalry) and so is a much smaller unit, > with more regular changes of personnel and is more likely to experience > periods of 'suspended animation' (though tends to escape the confusion of > amalgamation). > > Objectively speaking, the statement 'X Squadron is the finest the RFC/RAF > ever had' is about as easy to justify as the claim that Man U is a better > club than either Liverpool or Arsenal ! > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] > Sent: 14 March 2003 19:29 > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [CCI] "Finest" fighter sqn? > > > John Grech wrote: > > Hi all, Collier served with 66 squadron (Perhaps the finest fighter > squadron > > the RFC/RAF had?) > > Interesting question. How does one evaluate a squadron's > performance/contribution? If the primary criterion is 'victories', do they > follow the flyers (a la Bishop), or should they remain with the squadron. > How do we assign a value to the successful raids on dirigible sheds and > recon information that allowed/prevented major assaults. What measures > should be applied? > Thank you, John. I'll have to give that some thought. > Best, > Jay Gilmour > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:17:06 +0100 From: Gregory Alegi To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? Message-ID: Writing from "side show country" (but apparently all on the same side in the upcoming big show), an irreverent comment springs to mind. Given that the victories claimed by RFC squadrons in Italy far exceeded those of the native units, as well as the losses of the local enemies, how is this factored into evaluations of the relative merits of X and Y squadrons? Nothing too serious - just trying to stir up controversy and debate! Gregory (who knows very well that Milan is much better than Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal ;-)) >Nick >"biased opinion", I suppose it is, someone has to stick up for the squadrons >in the "Side shows". (not that this was the question) Looking at 66 in >Italy, they seem to have a very good "espirt de corps" this was reflected >through the squadron journal, the wing as a whole seemed to enjoy the >sporting competitions organised between the squadrons and other units. This >might have rubbed off on some of the other squadrons in theatre as there was >quite a bit of movement of personnel between them. > >John >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Nick Forder" >To: "Multiple recipients of list" >Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:14 AM >Subject: [CCI] RE: "Finest" fighter sqn? > > >> I rather think that John was stating a (not totally unbiased) opinion ! >> >> I used to have dealings with a retired Major General, who was not only >> Colonel of my Regiment but also headed the 'Cavalry Colonels'. He refered >to >> every regiment as being 'fine', as indeed they are; though not always all >> the time ! >> >> The RAF Squadron system has always been slightly unusual. It equates to an >> Army company (or squadron if you are cavalry) and so is a much smaller >unit, >> with more regular changes of personnel and is more likely to experience >> periods of 'suspended animation' (though tends to escape the confusion of >> amalgamation). >> >> Objectively speaking, the statement 'X Squadron is the finest the RFC/RAF >> ever had' is about as easy to justify as the claim that Man U is a better >> club than either Liverpool or Arsenal ! >> >> Nick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] >> Sent: 14 March 2003 19:29 >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: [CCI] "Finest" fighter sqn? >> >> >> John Grech wrote: >> > Hi all, Collier served with 66 squadron (Perhaps the finest fighter >> squadron >> > the RFC/RAF had?) >> >> Interesting question. How does one evaluate a squadron's >> performance/contribution? If the primary criterion is 'victories', do they >> follow the flyers (a la Bishop), or should they remain with the squadron. >> How do we assign a value to the successful raids on dirigible sheds and >> recon information that allowed/prevented major assaults. What measures >> should be applied? >> Thank you, John. I'll have to give that some thought. >> Best, >> Jay Gilmour >> >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:52:25 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: "Discussion group" Message-ID: <00b701c2ed66$5f32ff60$b97c69d5@your9al5izx2s9> Gregory This comes back to Jay's point. I am not comparing one squadrons combat claims against another, unless they fought side by side with exactly the same equipment, conditions, missions,adversaries etc, then a comparison might be possible. As Jay notes, how would you compare the work of a Scout squadron against a Corps squadron or a capital ships flight? They all made a valid contribution. I honestly feel that 66 is the best, in the sense of it's whole entity. (not too tongue in cheek!) John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:06:51 +0100 From: Gregory Alegi To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Message-ID: John I agree and as I said I wanted to be provocative. Still I do think that certain factors tend to cloud our judgments about squadrons, pilots, aircraft. My favourite example is the Ansaldo A.1 Balilla - considered a second rate fighter by Baracca and his mates of the 91.a Squadriglia but rated superior to the Fokker D.VII by US pilots in Polish service ... very strange! Gregory > Gregory > >This comes back to Jay's point. I am not comparing one squadrons combat >claims against another, unless they fought side by side with exactly the >same equipment, conditions, missions,adversaries etc, then a comparison >might be possible. As Jay notes, how would you compare the work of a Scout >squadron against a Corps squadron or a capital ships flight? They all made a >valid contribution. >I honestly feel that 66 is the best, in the sense of it's whole entity. >(not too tongue in cheek!) > > >John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:10:06 -0800 From: "Jay Gilmour" To: "C&CI" Subject: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <00ab01c2ed79$9b3717e0$b59027d8@jagil> Hello all, just a thought. Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks Jay Gilmour ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:19:24 -0600 From: peter.lambert@us.army.mil To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <426517042633a5.42633a54265170@us.army.mil> Trevor Henshaw's Book documents KIA, WIA POWS...also Above the Trenches compiles victories Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay Gilmour Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:11 pm Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? > Hello all, just a thought. > Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by > squadron; e.g. > sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks > Jay Gilmour > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:45:36 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: Subject: Re: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <00e201c2ed7e$922c8a90$b97c69d5@your9al5izx2s9> Jay, There must have been some thing done after the war, after all War in the Air does carry some interesting stats, but they do not seem to cover every squadron/unit. Individual squadrons also compiled some basic stats. 66 for one. Peter Above the Trenches and Sky their Battlefield are both excellent sources, but I am not sure they give the detail that we would require to ascertain "Finest" squadron as they are consolidated figures and you would still have to find away of weighting the various roles. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Gilmour" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 6:11 PM Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? > Hello all, just a thought. > Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. > sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks > Jay Gilmour > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:49:27 -0000 From: "Andy Kemp" To: Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <001501c2ed87$829c6290$0100a8c0@DAD> Hi Nick I think it would make an excellent addition to the web site! If you and Dick can organise the relevant material, I'd be delighted to do the technical bit, and mount it on the site for all to enjoy. To be honest, I just wish I had time to contribute to the content ... Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: An old chestnut > Dick > > I'll have a look through the files in the next week or so to see if I can > find anything. If not I will see what I can do to 'reconstruct' the project. > > > Nick > > Anyone else interested in this ? > Is it practical to look at this sort of thing for the website Andy ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Bolt [mailto:dickbolt@his.com] > Sent: 18 March 2003 11:59 > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [CCI] Re: An old chestnut > > > I am quite interested in this topic. > Dick > > Nick Forder wrote: > > > If only the exhibition which Fergus Read, Colin Baxter and I developed for > > the RAF Museum 10+ years ago had not been 'chopped' at the eleventh hour > by > > the RAF Museum... > > > > The exhibition was to examine the development of camouflage and markings > on > > WW1 aircraft, using the Cross & Cockade emblem as a motif, with quotes > from > > pilots, examples from nature (camouflage and the coloring of wasps etc) > and > > simple interactives. The funding for this was to come from C&CI. > > > > Perhaps it is worth revisiting as a website development ? Trouble is, I > > think that I dumped all the notes 5 years ago when I moved... > > > > Nick > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:48:27 -0000 From: "johnbarfoot" To: Subject: Re: Re Hinchliffe Message-ID: <002c01c2ed90$58eb89e0$8b926fd4@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Barnes To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: [CCI] Re: Re Hinchliffe > > Seems he was a bit of a lad ! Would make a good film !! > >Hello David, I second that on both counts. It is seventy five years and five days since Elsie Mackay and Hinchliffe set out fly the Atlantic, I remember it well! By the way, Hinchliffe has asked me to point out that the 'Daily Express' spelt his name with two C's when they reported him missing! John B. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:58:42 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: An old chestnut Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A43@EXCHANGE> Andy I wish I had more for this sort of thing too ! It is (probably) going to be Wed next week before I can devote any time to looking for the file (if I still have it). The most difficult thing to 'reconstruct' will be the 'quotes' on camouflage and markings. However, this will be ideal for the eGroup discussion ! What I am looking for is attributable quotes along the lines of "as soon as I saw the all red triplane I knew it had to be von R" or "I could barely discern the Hannover against the backdrop of the spring wheat crop". Get the idea ? Over to you.... Nick PS I may be doing some Army/Navy List (and possibly Army MIC)research over the long weekend if anyone needs anything looking up. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 08:14:23 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A48@EXCHANGE> Jay If you want to write it, I'll buy a copy ! However, such a thing would not be 'conclusive' because squadrons existed for different periods of time and undertook different duties at different times against different opposition. Look at 24 Squadron's use of the DH2, its initial success, its decline against the Albatros and Halberstadt and then its record with the DH5. BTW I mentioned Gregory's comment about Milan v Man U to one of the other curators here. Her response (after I had explained the context) was that she firmly believed that even 66 Squadron could field a team to beat Milan ! Nick -----Original Message----- From: Jay Gilmour [mailto:jagil@oz.net] Sent: 18 March 2003 18:11 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] "Finest" squadron? Hello all, just a thought. Is there a reference work that has compiled statistics by squadron; e.g. sorties, victories, KIA, WIA, POWs, lost machines and the like? Thanks Jay Gilmour ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 08:17:16 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: "Finest" squadron? Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A49@EXCHANGE> Yes, but how accurate are these records and, in particular, the claims ? Again I am reminded of Paul Leaman's assertion that 'Above the Trenches' contains more Fokker Dr1 claims than aircraft built... Nick There must have been some thing done after the war, after all War in the Air does carry some interesting stats, but they do not seem to cover every squadron/unit. Individual squadrons also compiled some basic stats. 66 for one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 08:42:16 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: C&C AGM Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8A4C@EXCHANGE> Peter has just reminded me that the Cross & Cockade AGM is at RAF Museum (Hendon) in the Halton Gallery (which is at the rear of the museum)on 26 April 2003. I hope that everyone on the list will be attending, and those who aren't members already can join on the day ! Nick ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 849 *********************