CCI Digest 823 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Aircraft manufacturer by "Alyson Christy" 2) RE: Aircraft manufacturer by Nick Forder 3) RE: Gotha raids on the UK by "Peter Wright" 4) RE: Gotha raids on the UK by "johnbarfoot" 5) German pilot named Bieck captured at Morcourt 30 May 1918 by "Charles Gosse" 6) Gothas by Nick Forder 7) Gotha crews by Nick Forder 8) Hinchliffe (again) by Nick Forder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:01:22 -0000 From: "Alyson Christy" To: "CCI CCI" Subject: Aircraft manufacturer Message-ID: Dear All, Does anyone have information about a company called George & Jobling that made Sopwith Camels and was also producing aircraft before 1914? It was located near the Central Station in Newcastle. Thanks, Joel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:12:10 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Aircraft manufacturer Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8852@EXCHANGE> Joel No it didn't !!! I can tell you about the G&J monoplane, but there is no evidence at all that G&J had anything at all to do with building Camels. This claim comes from a reported conversation with Tommy Sopwith towards the end of his life. We have discussed this on the eGroup before. Nick -----Original Message----- From: Alyson Christy [mailto:jbar.christy@virgin.net] Sent: 19 February 2003 10:05 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Aircraft manufacturer Dear All, Does anyone have information about a company called George & Jobling that made Sopwith Camels and was also producing aircraft before 1914? It was located near the Central Station in Newcastle. Thanks, Joel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:34:31 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: RE: Gotha raids on the UK Message-ID: <000f01c2d834$dd6c3370$8f668751@NELLIE> Nick, Thank you for all the info on German PoWs. What I am really after is some record of which WW1 enemy airmen were in which aircraft, with serial number of machine if known. I guess it's a fairly long shot, but I wondered if there is anything like the 'After the Battle' books on the 'Battle of Britain' and the 'Blitz'. There could possibly be something in the PRO AIR 1 files, for the War Office must have recorded this sort of info somewhere. Peter Wright. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:36 AM Subject: [CCI] RE: Gotha raids on the UK > Peter > > Presumably the Grub St book on German casualties doesn't cover this area ? > The bodies are buried at Cannock Chase, with the Zepp mass graves carrying a > list of names. I assume that the CWGC (? or similar) has registers of German > graves ? > > The omnipresent Kevin Kelly undertook some research in to German POWs in > this country, as an offshoot to research into RFC/RNAS/RAF POWs. I don't > know the details of what he found, but I do know that he compiles a library > of books on the subject (I contributed to it !). > > I know that there are some lists of POWs held at Donnington, and a Derby > photographer became a 'semi official' camp photographer. There was a POW > camp near here at Leigh (about which there is a small A5 booklet - again, my > copy went to Kevin !). > > The Red Cross published monthly lists of 'missing' for the British Army (one > of the 1917 editions was reprinted - I bought a copy for Derby Museum)and, > as an international organisation, should have done the same for the Germans. > > Nick > > Everyone, Does anyone know of a source of finding the crew names of German > aircraft shot down or crashing in this country during WW1? In particular, a > Gotha force-landed near Sturry in Kent on 6/7 December 1917, the crew > injured but surviving. One crew member was believed to be Ltn der Reserve > Franz Schulte, who ended up in a PoW Camp at Skipton and finally succumbed > to the influenza epidemic of 1918. It would be useful to have an answer to > the first sentence of this message, if not all of it. Thanks! > > Peter Wright. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:28:20 -0000 From: "johnbarfoot" To: Subject: RE: Gotha raids on the UK Message-ID: <002a01c2d858$93d7a4a0$17926fd4@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Wright To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 4:36 PM Subject: [CCI] RE: Gotha raids on the UK > Peter, According to my Bible! the crew of the Gotha that fell at Sturry near Canterbury, were Leut S.R. Shulte, Vizefeldwebel B. Senf and Leut P.W.Bernard no serial no for the a/c, but Murphy's law prevails as the other Gotha down on English soil that night G V/906/16 is recorded in TADOB 1914-1918. From memory as SKY ON FIRE is still AWOL from my shelf, did have a lot of info on the lads that flew the Gotha's it may be worth seeing what this author had to say about this crew, who appear to have been very experienced. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:10:37 -0500 From: "Charles Gosse" To: Subject: German pilot named Bieck captured at Morcourt 30 May 1918 Message-ID: <000001c2d874$7f46fd80$6601a8c0@DJ10SB21> On 30 May 1918, Lieutenant Bieck of Jasta 36 failed to return from a patrol and later on was reported to have come down behind British lines at Morcourt and been taken prisoner. Just 28 days out of flight school and flying the rear position in a flight of 3 machines, he would have been an easy target. His airfield was Vivaise by Versigny. Any ideas where I can follow-up on this fellow Bieck? Possible interrogation notes? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:07:49 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: Gothas Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8863@EXCHANGE> Peter There must have been intelligence reports on aircraft brouht down in Britain during the Great War which would, I would have thought, included intereviews with surviving crew members. 'G' numbers were allocated to some crashed aeroplanes, presumably because they were of 'technical interest', and so I would expect the crews to be interviewed. The local police forces may have kept records too. Wasn't the crew of the Zepp shot down at Little Wigborough arrested by a local PC ? As to sources in AIR 1, this might be the sort of thing which the Kent Aviation Historical Research Society/Group looked in to for the Gotha(s) brought down in Kent. I have a fair range of local history aviation books and none of them go in to this sort of detail (quite often the aircraft are misidentified, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise). I will contact the British Aviation Arch Soc to see if they know of anything. Nick BTY the Midland Air Museum acquired a framed piece of Gotha (sic) fabric from a Gotha 'shot down near Coventry' (sic) recently. I don't know whether it is on display yet. I can ask if anyone is interested. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:26:45 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: Gotha crews Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8867@EXCHANGE> Peter Further to my 'bounced' email of yesterday : I see that John has beaten me to the Bible ! I had assumed that it didn't contain German crew details. I brought my copy in to work this morning with a view to answering the questions : 1.How many German aircraft was shot down and crashed down British soil in WW1 ? 2.How many of the crew survived the experience ? 3.How many of those lived to be repatriated after the war ? I suspect that the answer to 3 is 'not many', following the 'flu. The non-survivors should be found in the war graves records, cross referenced with the Grub St book (if Norman et al didn't do that at the time). Nick PS 'Flying : The First World War in Kent' by David Collyer (North Kent books) contains photos of the funnerals of the aircrew killed during the Margate and Thanet raids. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:32:58 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: Hinchliffe (again) Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8868@EXCHANGE> Flt Lt WGR Hinchliffe claimed an Albatros DV, which was seen to crash, south west of Rumbeke aerodrome at 3.15 pm on 3 February 1918. Hinchliffe was flying Camel B6024 'ALLO ! LIL BIRD' of 10 (Naval) Squadron. Don't know how he lost his eye yet, does any one else ? Nick ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 823 *********************