CCI Digest 807 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) FW: [AB-IX] Belgian Martinsyde by Nick Forder 2) Re: FW: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection by "Peter Wright" 3) Re: Sopwith Schneider by "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" 4) Re: Sopwith Schneider by "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" 5) Re: Sopwith Schneider by Ian Burns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:54:02 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: FW: [AB-IX] Belgian Martinsyde Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F86F9@EXCHANGE> From: lucwittemans [mailto:lucwittemans@hotmail.com] At the Belgian Aviation History Association website can be found two photo's of a Martinsyde F.4 operated by the Belgian Military Aviation in the early twenties. Except for these photo's little or nothing is know about the origins of these aircraft. At that time, the Belgian Military Aviation operated quite a few, especially German, aircraft types in one and two's. I often wondered if it weren't the individual pilots who picked out an aircraft from among the hundreds in various states left following the German withdrawel to fly them to satisfy their curiosity. http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/baha2/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryP ics/interbellum/martinsyde_f4.htm Does the AB Martinsyde book say anything about a Belgian connection with this aircraft type? Thanks for the help, Luc Wittemans, Sint-Truiden, Belgium AB 13091 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:28:27 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: Re: FW: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection Message-ID: <000f01c2cbba$827e5c30$c0e27ad5@NELLIE> Nick, If the family of our late Vice-President wish to sell his book collection at auction, which I understand did happen in late 2002, then there is really nothing that the Society can do about it. This is a family matter entirely and no doubt other book titles will appear in the months ahead. Please, can some kind person explain to me just what the AB-IX Group is? Peter Wright. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:44 AM Subject: [CCI] FW: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection > > > -----Original Message----- > From: mcmillan_p > [mailto:paul.mcmillan@email4u.com] > Sent: 01 February 2003 14:46 > To: ab-ix@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection > > > All > > This is a difficult subject to bring up... > > Recently I bought a copy of JA Griffin's Canadian Military Aircraft > book in the UK. When I received it I found out that it came from the > collection of the late JM Bruce.. > > I would have thought that there might be a few readers of the AB-IX > site that might be interested in ensuring that some of his treasured > books found a safe and worthwhile home. The bookshop is not one of > the common aviation ones. > > See: www.francisedwards.co.uk > > for a browse of their online catalogue > > Paul > > > Visit our group web page for Files and Databases > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ab-ix > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:56:12 +0100 From: "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" To: Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <006d01c2cbc4$3f9df420$982797d4@ditt216euufe0s> Thanks Since I don't have the issue my first thought "how-unlike-Jack-Bruce", to make a mistake like that, but come to think of it, my bet is that Bruce wrote the text to his own photos while the caption to the color profile is most likely to have been written by the series editor. Also note that Bruce text corresponds to Sturtivant's statement in the Air Britain book. I also need to correct my statement about Baby. At the time the order was made from Sopwith they were referred to as Sopwith Modified Schneider Tractore biplane seaplanes! By the time in 1918/19 they came to America they were referred to as Baby and are listed as such by the US Navy. I believe your mentioning HOW the hat in the ring looks like, we can rule out any US Army use in the States. But perhaps there is a common factor here. Anyone that knows the origin of the hat in the ring symbol? Cheers Stig ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: Sopwith Schneider > In a message dated 2/2/2003 2:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, hagel.jarlevik@swipnet.se writes: > > > What does the text say? > > I have it handy on my desk, so I thought I would chime in here... > > The photo is captioned: > " The US Navy's A-394 (ex-3765) here repainted with American roundels and the addition of a 'hat-in-the-ring' marking." > > The plane is also profiled on the back cover, and the caption on page 36 pertaining to the profile reads: > "Sopwith Schneider A-394 (ex-3709)USN, August 1918. This American Schneider is finished overall in light grey although the floats appear to be clear varnished. US roundels in six positions and fuselage emblem of 'Uncle Sam's' hat in the national colours." > > Note that the two captions identify it with a different "ex" number. Also, note that it is not THE hat-in-the-ring emblem as used by Rickenbacker's bunch, but a much simplified two-dimensional appearing version. > > DZ. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:25:25 +0100 From: "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" To: Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <006e01c2cbc4$400bf830$982797d4@ditt216euufe0s> Hallo Ian MANY thanks for your update. Sturtivant confirms that A407 was ex 8209 The others went to Canada without engines. At least 3709 was handed over to US Navy and prefixed N-3709 (picture is in the Putnam book about US Naval aeroplanes). I believe it was not altogether unusual to add an N to whatever serial aeroplanes had after April 1st, 1918 perhaps to identify it as a now defunct "Royal Navy" aeroplane. Perhaps others can confirm or deny that? I am however MOST mystified by the mentioning of A869-A872 as Babies. The Putnam book by Swanborough/Bowers ALSO mentions that, but A869-A872 WERE no Babies, they were in a batch of 100 RAF FE 2b!! No mentioning is made by Sturtivant/Page in their book about Royal Naval aircraft 1911-19 either, so until anyone really can show some evidence to the contrary I have dimissed this as simply untrue. They are anyway unknown to all the sources I have. Does Bruce mention them?? That a Blackburn fin can appear on a Sopwith built aeroplane, must be related to parts swapping in the field, and was probably quite common. "You took what you got" :-) Cheers Stig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Burns" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: Sopwith Schneider > Stig, > To add to what DZ has sent: > > USN use was minimal. Some years back I started to collect information > for a > possible history. Well, that got put aside 'to br taken up later when > time > permits', you know the story... > > However, I was able to identify just 6 US Babies. The Bu Air numbers > follow: > A.394 - which started this. > A.407. Photos at Pensacola show this with both US serial on the rudder > and > British serial, N.8209, on the rear fuselage. Oddly, N8209 was > allocated to a > batch of unbuilt Sopwith 2F1 Ship's Camels. The phot is reproduced on > p30 of > the Datafile with the statement that the N prefix is spurious, which > makes 8209 > a Sopwith built Baby. > A.869 to A.872. It is possible that these serials were allocated to > Babies used > for training at RNAS Killingholme. The Datafile has a photo of 'N3709' > in US > roundels on Page 30, and is discussed extensively in related photo > captions. It > appears to be a bit of a mystery machine. Again, the N prefix is > spurious, 3709 > being a Sopwith built machine that somehow acquired a Blackburn > trademark on > it's fin. > > The Schneider/Baby had a really interesting career, which is well > summarused in > the Datafile. I strongly recommend it to anyone interested in the > type. Other > related titles are: > Mini Datafile #9 - Sopwith Tabloid. > Mini Datafile #15 - Ansaldo (built) Baby. > There is also an excellent Norwegian piblication on the Norwegian Naval > Babies. > Norsk Flyhistorisk Forening- Profil NR.4. I have a partial translation > of the > text if anyone needs it. It was published ca.1993, but I have no idea > whether > it is still available. > > Regards, > Ian > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:38:30 -0500 From: Ian Burns To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <3E3EEF66.3DE93055@sympatico.ca> A869-A872 were Bu(reau of) Air(onautics), ie USNavy serials. The sequence is still in use today... ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 807 *********************