CCI Digest 806 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Sopwith Schneider by "Peter Wright" 2) Re: Sopwith Schneider by "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" 3) Re: Sopwith Schneider by Ian Burns 4) Re: Sopwith Schneider by "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" 5) Re: Sopwith Schneider by Zulis@aol.com 6) Re: Sopwith Schneider by Ian Burns 7) FW: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection by Nick Forder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:42:48 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <000a01c2ca9f$9f8cc990$7b1b8351@NELLIE> Warren, Bruce Robertson's 'British Military Aircraft Serials' gives Schneiders 3707,3709,3765,3806, as transferred to the Canadian Government. Peter Wright. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Munkasy" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:13 AM Subject: [CCI] Sopwith Schneider > Please help me with this mystery: a Sopwith Schneider (advanced Tabloid > on floats), in USAS markings and "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia on the > fuselage, is in the latest 1/48 plastic kit from Special Hobby (Czech > Republic). Instructions state this is US aircraft "A-394" and ex-British > "3765". The latter is a legitimate British production batch number. > I have searched the Putnam and Crowood Sopwith Aircraft books, The Hat > in the Ring Gang, Larkins' USN and USMC books, US Navy histories, and > several others to try to resolve: > > 1. Was this a US European combat aircraft? To what unit might it belong- > U.S. Naval, Marine? Is the "A-394" number a correct U.S. match for > ex-British "3765"? The references don't mention that the US even > operated Schneiders; at best, the kit instructions only say that > "Several. were delivered to Canada and the USA". > > 2. I read "somewhere" that the "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia was a general > US graphic expression until it became associated only with the 94th Aero > Squadron. Is that why it appears on a naval floatplane, or is this just > the kit maker's imagination? > > 3. Has the US use of "Schneiders" in WW I been covered in a publication? > > Thanks for your attention. > Warren Munkasy > > machmaster727@earthlink.net > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:30:38 +0100 From: "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" To: Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <002201c2cab6$fcbdc8f0$fb2b97d4@ditt216euufe0s> Warren Air Britains Royal Aircraft and Serials 1911-1919 by Ray Stutivant and Gordon Page has this to say 3765 Deld Calshot 31.12.15. Collided with Calshot pier taxying 9.7.16 (2/Lt A. Nelidow, Russian Cavalry, unhurt). Blackburn 3.8.16-3.17 (repair). To RCNAS without engine 1918, then to US Navy as A394. The Schiffer book United States Naval Aviation 1910-1918 by Noel Shirley confirms that A-394 was a gift from the British Admiralty. Together with A-407 I believe these were the only two Baby's (Babies??) operated by the US Navy in the States. What the US Navy did with their two aeroplanes is beyond me, but I find it farfetched that they should have handed them over to the Army. The US Navy is also reported to have received some Baby's in Europe for training, but how any of these could have ended up with 94 Sq is beyond me. The way I see it, A-394 was operated in USA and not in Europe. If there exists any photo of A-394, that would of course settle the matter once and for all Cheers Stig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Wright" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:40 AM Subject: [CCI] Re: Sopwith Schneider > Warren, Bruce Robertson's 'British Military Aircraft Serials' gives > Schneiders 3707,3709,3765,3806, as transferred to the Canadian Government. > > Peter Wright. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Warren Munkasy" > To: "Multiple recipients of list" > Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:13 AM > Subject: [CCI] Sopwith Schneider > > > > Please help me with this mystery: a Sopwith Schneider (advanced Tabloid > > on floats), in USAS markings and "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia on the > > fuselage, is in the latest 1/48 plastic kit from Special Hobby (Czech > > Republic). Instructions state this is US aircraft "A-394" and ex-British > > "3765". The latter is a legitimate British production batch number. > > I have searched the Putnam and Crowood Sopwith Aircraft books, The Hat > > in the Ring Gang, Larkins' USN and USMC books, US Navy histories, and > > several others to try to resolve: > > > > 1. Was this a US European combat aircraft? To what unit might it belong- > > U.S. Naval, Marine? Is the "A-394" number a correct U.S. match for > > ex-British "3765"? The references don't mention that the US even > > operated Schneiders; at best, the kit instructions only say that > > "Several. were delivered to Canada and the USA". > > > > 2. I read "somewhere" that the "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia was a general > > US graphic expression until it became associated only with the 94th Aero > > Squadron. Is that why it appears on a naval floatplane, or is this just > > the kit maker's imagination? > > > > 3. Has the US use of "Schneiders" in WW I been covered in a publication? > > > > Thanks for your attention. > > Warren Munkasy > > > > machmaster727@earthlink.net > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 13:43:49 -0500 From: Ian Burns To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <3E3D66E5.E99DC65C@sympatico.ca> Warren, Sopwith Baby by J M Bruce. Windsock Datafile #60, 1996. Page 35 has a photo of A-394 with the Hat-in-the-Ring marking, plua a colour profile. Warren Munkasy wrote: > Please help me with this mystery: a Sopwith Schneider (advanced Tabloid > on floats), in USAS markings and "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia on the > fuselage, is in the latest 1/48 plastic kit from Special Hobby (Czech > Republic). Instructions state this is US aircraft "A-394" and ex-British > "3765". The latter is a legitimate British production batch number. > I have searched the Putnam and Crowood Sopwith Aircraft books, The Hat > in the Ring Gang, Larkins' USN and USMC books, US Navy histories, and > several others to try to resolve: > > 1. Was this a US European combat aircraft? To what unit might it belong- > U.S. Naval, Marine? Is the "A-394" number a correct U.S. match for > ex-British "3765"? The references don't mention that the US even > operated Schneiders; at best, the kit instructions only say that > "Several. were delivered to Canada and the USA". > > 2. I read "somewhere" that the "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia was a general > US graphic expression until it became associated only with the 94th Aero > Squadron. Is that why it appears on a naval floatplane, or is this just > the kit maker's imagination? > > 3. Has the US use of "Schneiders" in WW I been covered in a publication? > > Thanks for your attention. > Warren Munkasy > > machmaster727@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:22:23 +0100 From: "Marit Hagel/Stig Jarlevik" To: Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <007201c2caf0$97b09890$fb2b97d4@ditt216euufe0s> Hi Ian What does the text say? B Rgds Stig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Burns" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 7:49 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: Sopwith Schneider > Warren, > Sopwith Baby by J M Bruce. Windsock Datafile #60, 1996. Page 35 has a > photo of A-394 with the Hat-in-the-Ring marking, plua a colour profile. > > Warren Munkasy wrote: > > > Please help me with this mystery: a Sopwith Schneider (advanced Tabloid > > on floats), in USAS markings and "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia on the > > fuselage, is in the latest 1/48 plastic kit from Special Hobby (Czech > > Republic). Instructions state this is US aircraft "A-394" and ex-British > > "3765". The latter is a legitimate British production batch number. > > I have searched the Putnam and Crowood Sopwith Aircraft books, The Hat > > in the Ring Gang, Larkins' USN and USMC books, US Navy histories, and > > several others to try to resolve: > > > > 1. Was this a US European combat aircraft? To what unit might it belong- > > U.S. Naval, Marine? Is the "A-394" number a correct U.S. match for > > ex-British "3765"? The references don't mention that the US even > > operated Schneiders; at best, the kit instructions only say that > > "Several. were delivered to Canada and the USA". > > > > 2. I read "somewhere" that the "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia was a general > > US graphic expression until it became associated only with the 94th Aero > > Squadron. Is that why it appears on a naval floatplane, or is this just > > the kit maker's imagination? > > > > 3. Has the US use of "Schneiders" in WW I been covered in a publication? > > > > Thanks for your attention. > > Warren Munkasy > > > > machmaster727@earthlink.net > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 15:35:23 -0500 From: Zulis@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <36FF9B45.672EF782.000121E7@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2003 2:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, hagel.jarlevik@swipnet.se writes: > What does the text say? I have it handy on my desk, so I thought I would chime in here... The photo is captioned: " The US Navy's A-394 (ex-3765) here repainted with American roundels and the addition of a 'hat-in-the-ring' marking." The plane is also profiled on the back cover, and the caption on page 36 pertaining to the profile reads: "Sopwith Schneider A-394 (ex-3709)USN, August 1918. This American Schneider is finished overall in light grey although the floats appear to be clear varnished. US roundels in six positions and fuselage emblem of 'Uncle Sam's' hat in the national colours." Note that the two captions identify it with a different "ex" number. Also, note that it is not THE hat-in-the-ring emblem as used by Rickenbacker's bunch, but a much simplified two-dimensional appearing version. DZ. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:54:20 -0500 From: Ian Burns To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Sopwith Schneider Message-ID: <3E3D938C.A51C82A@sympatico.ca> Stig, To add to what DZ has sent: USN use was minimal. Some years back I started to collect information for a possible history. Well, that got put aside 'to br taken up later when time permits', you know the story... However, I was able to identify just 6 US Babies. The Bu Air numbers follow: A.394 - which started this. A.407. Photos at Pensacola show this with both US serial on the rudder and British serial, N.8209, on the rear fuselage. Oddly, N8209 was allocated to a batch of unbuilt Sopwith 2F1 Ship's Camels. The phot is reproduced on p30 of the Datafile with the statement that the N prefix is spurious, which makes 8209 a Sopwith built Baby. A.869 to A.872. It is possible that these serials were allocated to Babies used for training at RNAS Killingholme. The Datafile has a photo of 'N3709' in US roundels on Page 30, and is discussed extensively in related photo captions. It appears to be a bit of a mystery machine. Again, the N prefix is spurious, 3709 being a Sopwith built machine that somehow acquired a Blackburn trademark on it's fin. The Schneider/Baby had a really interesting career, which is well summarused in the Datafile. I strongly recommend it to anyone interested in the type. Other related titles are: Mini Datafile #9 - Sopwith Tabloid. Mini Datafile #15 - Ansaldo (built) Baby. There is also an excellent Norwegian piblication on the Norwegian Naval Babies. Norsk Flyhistorisk Forening- Profil NR.4. I have a partial translation of the text if anyone needs it. It was published ca.1993, but I have no idea whether it is still available. Regards, Ian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:35:02 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: FW: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F86F3@EXCHANGE> -----Original Message----- From: mcmillan_p [mailto:paul.mcmillan@email4u.com] Sent: 01 February 2003 14:46 To: ab-ix@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AB-IX] The late JM Bruce Book Collection All This is a difficult subject to bring up... Recently I bought a copy of JA Griffin's Canadian Military Aircraft book in the UK. When I received it I found out that it came from the collection of the late JM Bruce.. I would have thought that there might be a few readers of the AB-IX site that might be interested in ensuring that some of his treasured books found a safe and worthwhile home. The bookshop is not one of the common aviation ones. See: www.francisedwards.co.uk for a browse of their online catalogue Paul Visit our group web page for Files and Databases http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ab-ix Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 806 *********************