CCI Digest 796 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Dutch Avros by Nick Forder 2) Re: Dutch Avros by Nick Forder 3) Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by Nick Forder 4) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by Dick Bolt 5) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by Dick Bolt 6) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by Dick Bolt 7) Re: Dutch Avros by "Brian.E.Hall" 8) Re: Dutch Avros by "Peter Wright" 9) Re: Dutch Avros by "Brian.E.Hall" 10) Re: German Bombers by "johnbarfoot" 11) Re: German Bombers by Zulis@aol.com 12) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by "mbbarrass" 13) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by GaGin1@aol.com 14) Re: German Bombers by GaGin1@aol.com 15) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by GaGin1@aol.com 16) Re: German Bombers by "Bob Pearson" 17) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by "Bob Pearson" 18) Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft by "Peter Wright" 19) RE: [AB-IX] Henri Biard - Air-Britain wins through !!! by Nick Forder 20) Re: German Bombers by "Peter Wright" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:25:35 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: Dutch Avros Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F3178414@EXCHANGE> Brian I would be interested to see your photo. I am beginning to think that the 4th aircraft may be an Austin Whippet, though I have yet to confirm that one was there. Nick -----Original Message----- From: Brian.E.Hall [mailto:Sedgecope@compuserve.com] Sent: 22 January 2003 20:16 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: Dutch Avros Nick No, I haven't any clues (or comments) I'm afraid. I do have a photo showing another two aircraft of a similar vintage. Unfortunately the registration of only one is (nearly) decipherable. This is G-EB(C)Y. These are both single engined, two bay biplanes with four passenger windows cut in the fuselage. Can anyone identify the type from the registration numbers? Scanned copies are available to anyone interested. Brian.E.Hall. Alton, Hampshire, UK using OzWin II v 2.33 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:44:46 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: Dutch Avros Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F3178416@EXCHANGE> Daimler Airways DH34 G-EBBY was red overall with white lettering, fitted with a 450 hp Napier Lion, and capable of carrying nine passengers (same as a Dragon Rapide if you used the fold down seat too). Daimler Hire Ltd was awarded a £55 000 subsidy on 1 October 1922 to operate an airline service from Manchester to Amsterdam, via London, with a connection on to Berlin. A number of DH34s were used on this route. The ticket price was £2 3s 0d Manchester-London (though you coul buy a ticket Manchester-Berlin), only slightly more than a first class rail ticket. DH34 G-EBBS inaugerated the service on 23 Oct, flown by our old friend Captain GR Hinchliffe. This aircraft crashed on 14 September 1923, killing 3 passengers and both pilots (GE Pratt & LG Robinson). The service was suspended, but resumed in 1924 for a brief period before Daimler became part of Imperial Airways. Imperial did not include Manchester in its schedules. (I would think that Nev Doyle's Air-Britain book 'Triple Alliance' gives more information). Another possibility is that the aircraft is G-EBQI 'The Lancastrian', a DH50 of Northern Air Lines, based at Wythenshawe initially and then at Barton (Manchester Airport). Nick -----Original Message----- From: Ian Burns [mailto:jenianburns@sympatico.ca] Sent: 23 January 2003 01:37 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: Dutch Avros >From the description they sound like DH34, G-EBBY or G-EBCY. The former served with Daimler Hire (red fuselage) and later Imperial Airways (probably blue or silver fuselage). The later may not have been completed, so the former seems most likely. Ian "Brian.E.Hall" wrote: > Nick > > No, I haven't any clues (or comments) I'm afraid. I do have a photo showing > another two aircraft of a similar vintage. Unfortunately the registration > of only one is (nearly) decipherable. This is G-EB(C)Y. These are both > single engined, two bay biplanes with four passenger windows cut in the > fuselage. > > Can anyone identify the type from the registration numbers? > > Scanned copies are available to anyone interested. > > Brian.E.Hall. Alton, Hampshire, UK using OzWin II v 2.33 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:10:03 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8670@EXCHANGE> It has been suggested to me that wireless telegraphy was developed initially for aircraft use in 1919. I have a vague recollection of wireless telegraphy being used to co-ordinate RAF fighters defending Britain against Gothas in 1917. Can anyone add anything to this ? Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:08:52 -0500 From: Dick Bolt To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <3E302FB2.33DECE5@his.com> I think technology was still in Spark gap technology. If so, unlikely in airplane! I had a friend on a freighter ( Merchant Marine service ) that was the telegrapher in WWI. If they had tubes ( must check out), then possible & likely. Dick, ham operator since 55! Nick Forder wrote: > It has been suggested to me that wireless telegraphy was developed initially > for aircraft use in 1919. I have a vague recollection of wireless telegraphy > being used to co-ordinate RAF fighters defending Britain against Gothas in > 1917. Can anyone add anything to this ? > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:16:38 -0500 From: Dick Bolt To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <3E303185.F3BCFFC8@his.com> >From what I see on page below, I would say yes to both XMIT & Receive. Never expected a microphone, must recheck this one! Dick http://www.sparkmuseum.com/WIREMISC.HTM Nick Forder wrote: > It has been suggested to me that wireless telegraphy was developed initially > for aircraft use in 1919. I have a vague recollection of wireless telegraphy > being used to co-ordinate RAF fighters defending Britain against Gothas in > 1917. Can anyone add anything to this ? > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:29:28 -0500 From: Dick Bolt To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <3E303488.FC3094@his.com> Try this site: http://www.ku.edu/~kansite/WWI-L/2000/06/msg00035.html Nick Forder wrote: > It has been suggested to me that wireless telegraphy was developed initially > for aircraft use in 1919. I have a vague recollection of wireless telegraphy > being used to co-ordinate RAF fighters defending Britain against Gothas in > 1917. Can anyone add anything to this ? > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:36:30 -0500 From: "Brian.E.Hall" To: "cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Dutch Avros Message-ID: <200301231336_MC3-1-2639-7549@compuserve.com> Nick I am afraid as far as interest in aircraft identification is concerned I suffer from tunnel vision! That is there is a sharp cutoff around 1920! I wasn't going to divert the interest of members on such a "modern" aircraft but as storage space is at a premium... I was agreeably surprised (as I continue to be at the broad base of knowledge of members) at the immediate response to my question. If you would like a scanned copy, I should appreciate your email address. On the spur of the moment I have already sent a copy to Peter (using the LIST address) before remembering he wouldn't receive it! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:07:46 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: Re: Dutch Avros Message-ID: <001701c2c312$cc7eb9c0$c9dd7ad5@NELLIE> Brian, Yes, I did receive it and thank you for your trouble. I have printed-out the image and now have yet another civil registration to add to my early British Photographic Register. It is a bit outside our usual interest, but nevertheless, a useful 'tool'. Peter W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian.E.Hall" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: Dutch Avros > Nick > > I am afraid as far as interest in aircraft identification is concerned I > suffer from tunnel vision! That is there is a sharp cutoff around 1920! > > I wasn't going to divert the interest of members on such a "modern" > aircraft but as storage space is at a premium... > > I was agreeably surprised (as I continue to be at the broad base of > knowledge of members) at the immediate response to my question. > > If you would like a scanned copy, I should appreciate your email address. > On the spur of the moment I have already sent a copy to Peter (using the > LIST address) before remembering he wouldn't receive it! > > Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:25:23 -0500 From: "Brian.E.Hall" To: "cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Dutch Avros Message-ID: <200301231525_MC3-1-2654-B09D@compuserve.com> Peter I am surprised you received the image OK. I subscribe to several Lists and I understood it wasn't possible to transmit attachments. Ah well, one learns something every day! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:21:41 -0000 From: "johnbarfoot" To: Subject: Re: German Bombers Message-ID: <004901c2c31d$d2343560$af926fd4@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: Reggie To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: [CCI] German Bombers > Hello Reg, Re- your interest in German air raids on Britain during WWI, yes all the books recommended to you by members are worth reading particularly THE GERMAN GIANTS. Here are two more I have found very helpful in my research over the years and very interesting to read, the first is THE AIR DEFENCE OF BRITAIN by Cole and Cheesman (my bible) and for a look at the war from the other side THE SKY ON FIRE by Fredette, the latter was such a good book it never returned from loan and the former TADOGB I would not lend as I very often need to refer it! Although there were only 28 actual bombing raids on England by Giants, (the largest aeroplanes to bomb the UK during both wars, on average about 37ft larger in span than the WW2 Lancaster and Halifax heavy bombers) these raids had far reaching effects. Britain had so impressed the German military with the introduction and use of tanks during WWI, that they developed their own to put to good use in round two! Likewise the RAF were convinced by the Germans with the success of the Giants (not enough built by 1918 to tip the balance) that they produced heavy bombers for round two, fortunately for us the Germans had concentrated on medium bombers or the 1940/41 Blitz would have been far worse than it was. We must not forget the German 3,4,5&6 engined Giants of WWI were inspired by the remarkable early Sikorsky machines particularly the "Ilia Mourumetz" four engined bombers that were flying in 1914 and in action with the Imperial Russian Air Service by February 1915. Good hunting there are lots of good books to be found. Thanks to the recent input on entertainers that served with the RFC/RAF, RNAS I have been prompted to blow the dust off my copy of ROBERT LORAINE again. The best of British as I remember it John B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:04:53 EST From: Zulis@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: German Bombers Message-ID: <168.19a1a21d.2b61c105@aol.com> --part1_168.19a1a21d.2b61c105_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Gotha Summer, by C.M.White does an excellent job of documenting the Gotha raids on London and vicinity. Not many pictures, but tremendous detail while still remaining very readable. I read it a month ago and quite enjoyed it. Dave Z. --part1_168.19a1a21d.2b61c105_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The Gotha Summer, by C.M.White does an excellent job of documenting the Gotha raids on London and vicinity.    Not many pictures, but tremendous detail while still remaining very readable.  I read it a month ago and quite enjoyed it.

Dave Z. --part1_168.19a1a21d.2b61c105_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:20:17 -0000 From: "mbbarrass" To: Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <007001c2c32d$9c2f85e0$95f287d9@freeserve.co.uk> Hi All W/T was used in aircraft prior to WW1 and was certainly in use for artillery spotting by the RFC from 1914 onwards, No 4 Squadron operated the RFC's W/T Flight. No 9 Squadron was formed as the RFC's W/T squadron attached to RFC HQ in December 1914. At this time aircraft were only able to carry a transmitter and therefore communication wsa one way. Is W/T (continuous wave transmissions using Morse Code) being comfused with Radio Telephony - R/T (modulated transmissions capable of transmitting voice communications)? Malcolm Barrass 'Air of Authority' www.rafweb.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:14:16 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <69.33c291f8.2b61df58@aol.com> aieroplanes could wire to the ground, but the ground could not return a signal via wireless. They communicted back to aircraft with signal strips. Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:19:32 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: German Bombers Message-ID: <10.2bafdd1b.2b61e094@aol.com> If you blew your dust off ROBERT LORAINE you will find he was the first man in England to wireless from a plane to the ground at Army Maneuvers 1910, flying at his own expense to prove the point, and having learnt Morse code in the summer Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:24:14 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <76.291b8924.2b61e1ae@aol.com> W/T had been used from the air by the U..S. and the French, azs well as the British, in 1910. Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:13:22 -0800 From: "Bob Pearson" To: CCI Subject: Re: German Bombers Message-ID: <104338166001@smtp-1.vancouver.ipapp.com> The most recent CCI has an article on this very subject and it states that McCurdy and Horton did so on 10 August 1910, Loraine on 26 September. Bob ---------- >From: GaGin1@aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [CCI] Re: German Bombers >Date: Thu, Jan 23, 2003, 4:20 pm > > If you blew your dust off ROBERT LORAINE you will find he was the first man > in England to wireless from a plane to the ground at Army Maneuvers 1910, > flying at his own expense to prove the point, and having learnt Morse code > in the summer > Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:13:55 -0800 From: "Bob Pearson" To: CCI Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <104338166401@smtp-1.vancouver.ipapp.com> Actually there was a German unit that was experimenting with using wireless to direct aircraft from the ground, and the commanding officer in the air was equipped to also transmit to the others in the air, He could communicte both with the ground and send to his men in the air. There is a profile of one of the Halberstadt D.IIIs so equipped, as well as a page of text and some photographs in the Halberstadt Fighter Datafile Special. Supposedly another German scientist had developed a predecessor to radar, but those in high places could forsee no use for it. Regards, Bob Pearson Colours & Markings of the World's Air Forces 1912-20 http://www.internetmodeler.com/cd-roms/RNP_CD/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:07:16 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft Message-ID: <003301c2c380$8c9991e0$b55901d5@NELLIE> Greetings! May I refer you to my article in Journal Vol 30 No 4 1999, which covers this question in a reasonable way. It was titled 'Its Good to Talk'. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mbbarrass" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:19 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: Wireless Telegraphy in aircraft > Hi All > > W/T was used in aircraft prior to WW1 and was certainly in use for artillery > spotting by the RFC from 1914 onwards, No 4 Squadron operated the RFC's W/T > Flight. > > No 9 Squadron was formed as the RFC's W/T squadron attached to RFC HQ in > December 1914. At this time aircraft were only able to carry a transmitter > and therefore communication wsa one way. > > Is W/T (continuous wave transmissions using Morse Code) being comfused with > Radio Telephony - R/T (modulated transmissions capable of transmitting voice > communications)? > > Malcolm Barrass > 'Air of Authority' > www.rafweb.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:11:03 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'Malcolm Fillmore'" Cc: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: RE: [AB-IX] Henri Biard - Air-Britain wins through !!! Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F33F8677@EXCHANGE> Henri Biard is in the 1965 Guernsey directory, but his wife/widow is listed instead in 1966. Henri Biard died on 18 January 1966, aged 74. A short obituary in "Flight" notes that he learned to fly in 1911, searved in the RNAS during WWI, was Supermarine test pilot from 1919 to 1933, served in the RAF in WWII and became the Guernsey met officer. Civil Aviation website at http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/vicsmith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:34:44 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: Re: German Bombers Message-ID: <006001c2c383$87c10060$b55901d5@NELLIE> Hello! When the first issue of the Journal for 2003 appears, we will be offering reprinted copies of 'The German Air Raids on Great Britain 1914-18', in the sales column. Peter W. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:06 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: German Bombers > > --part1_168.19a1a21d.2b61c105_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > The Gotha Summer, by C.M.White does an excellent job of documenting the Gotha > raids on London and vicinity. Not many pictures, but tremendous detail > while still remaining very readable. I read it a month ago and quite enjoyed > it. > > Dave Z. > > --part1_168.19a1a21d.2b61c105_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >
> The Gotha Summer, by C.M.White does an excellent job of documenting the Gotha raids on London and vicinity.    Not many pictures, but tremendous detail while still remaining very readable.  I read it a month ago and quite enjoyed it.
>
> Dave Z. > > --part1_168.19a1a21d.2b61c105_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 796 *********************