CCI Digest 790 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Entertainers by Nick Forder 2) Re: Biard by "John Grech" 3) Re: Biard by Gregory Alegi 4) Re: Biard by Nick Forder 5) Admiralty Compasses by Nick Forder 6) Re: Biard by Gregory Alegi 7) Re: Biard by Nick Forder 8) Re: Biard by Gregory Alegi 9) Re: e-mails by "Brian.E.Hall" 10) Re: e-mails by Nick Forder 11) H C Biard by "John Grech" 12) Biard by "John Grech" 13) Re: e-mails by "Peter Wright" 14) Entertainers in WWi by GaGin1@aol.com 15) Re: Biard by GaGin1@aol.com 16) (no subject) by GaGin1@aol.com 17) Re: e-mails by "johnbarfoot" 18) Re: Biard by "Brian.E.Hall" 19) Re: e-mails by "John Grech" 20) Re: (no subject) by Steve Cox 21) Re: (no subject) by GaGin1@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:26:17 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: Entertainers Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F317839D@EXCHANGE> I nearly bought a biography of Jack Warner once, on the strength of his his WW1 service. However the specific content seemed to be restricted to a couple of photos; one showing (Flight ?) Sergeant Warner (sic) in uniform, the other showing him as a member of a concert party. Instead I spent my pennies on a copy of Campbell's 'The Water Barrier' and a biog of Billy Cotton 'My Way' (complete with a set of the lyrics on the flyleaf). There is a chapter in 'My Way' on Cotton's wartime service, which I seem to recall was with 16 Squadron. However I think that this was probably 16 Reserve Squadron as I don't recall any operational service. Perhaps I should copy it and send it to John for Logbook (or whatever it is we call it now) ? 'Hangar Notes' did contain a list of entertainers with RAF/RFC/RNAS service for anyone who cares to spend an evening trawling through back issues. Nick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:54:00 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: <005701c2be05$fa6b11b0$1cc00650@your9al5izx2s9> Nick, Thanks for the info, I am really looking to finish the ten or so line's(due to space limitations) with "he died on the ????? at xxxx. His aero club cert was No 218 4 June 1912 , he was a contemporary of Salmond whom he mentions in his book " One of my closest friends at the school (Graheme Whites) was a burley" powerful fellow, considerably older than myself, by the name of John Salmon." Biard does mention Hucks, but does not say directly if he was instructed by him. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Forder" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:13 AM Subject: [CCI] Re: Biard > John > > I think that Nev Doyle will have the answer. I'll write to him today. There > isn't much point 'phoning him as he is deaf (unless his wife is there, he > doesn't even know the phone is ringing). Looks like he didn't retire to > Guernsey, which may have made him easier to find. > > Other refs to Biard include Broughton's book on the British Light Aeroplane > (Supermarine Sparrow) and Thomas Foxworth's 'The Speed Seekers' (wonderful > book) covers all the Schneider stuff (S4, Sea Urchin & Sea Lion), notes that > Biard was "extremely tactiturn"; learned to fly with the Grahame White > School at Hendon in 1912 (I'll have to check these dates - he may have been > a contemporary of Salmond as a pupil and taught by BC Hucks); served in RNAS > in WW1; became Supermarine Test Pilot in 1920 (NB Was Alex Henshaw his > immediate successor ?). > > Foxworth quotes 'Wings' Chapter 4 (Hurst & Blackett, London, 1934) which > contains Biard's account of the S4 crash. > > There was a book on Scott-Paine & Supermarine's called 'Fast Boats and > Flying Boats' which may tell you something of interest. Phil Jarrett was the > publisher's editor, so that is a shortcut you might like to consider ! > > Nick > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:04:15 +0100 From: Gregory Alegi To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: > became Supermarine Test Pilot in 1920 (NB Was Alex Henshaw his >immediate successor ?). About 20 years I contacted Alex Henshaw while researching the history of Spitfire IX MK805, then in the process of being restored. He was very cooperative and sent a copy of SIGH FOR A MERLIN, perusing which I cannot find any reference to Biard, possibly because Henshaw went straight to Vickers. Other test pilots mentioned for Sept-Oct 1939 are Summers, Quill and Hare. Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:30:10 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F31783BF@EXCHANGE> But that time Supermarine was, technically speaking, Vickers-Supermarine. Quill did Spitfire work, possibly taking over from Summers (who did the prototype testing ?). I seem to recall that Summers did the Wellington development work, including the test drops of the bouncing bomb ? Not that this helps us much with Biard, and Gregory has answered my implied query about whether there was likely to be a ref in 'Sigh for a Merlin'. Nick -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Alegi [mailto:gregory.alegi@fastwebnet.it] Sent: 17 January 2003 09:04 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: Biard > became Supermarine Test Pilot in 1920 (NB Was Alex Henshaw his >immediate successor ?). About 20 years I contacted Alex Henshaw while researching the history of Spitfire IX MK805, then in the process of being restored. He was very cooperative and sent a copy of SIGH FOR A MERLIN, perusing which I cannot find any reference to Biard, possibly because Henshaw went straight to Vickers. Other test pilots mentioned for Sept-Oct 1939 are Summers, Quill and Hare. Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:34:41 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "Cci (E-mail)" Subject: Admiralty Compasses Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F31783C1@EXCHANGE> Does anyone know what sort of aircraft (including airships) might have had Admiralty Pattern 200 and/or 201 compasses ? I have seen plans of British built Longhorns being fitted with this sort of compass (in RNAS service), but I would appreciate some confirmation based on tech literature. I should be able to provide scans for interested parties. Thanks Nick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:50:52 +0100 From: Gregory Alegi To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: >But that time Supermarine was, technically speaking, Vickers-Supermarine. Absolutely yes. But the facilities were physically separate and Henshaw recalled the interview taking place at Weybridge and the first flight, in a Wellington, at Brooklands. Anyway, I also checked the (rather basic) WHO'S WHO IN AVIATION HISTORY compiled a few years ago by Bill Longyard (Novato, Presidio Press, 1994) and sure enough, the Biard entry only carries a birth year ... Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:53:59 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F31783C2@EXCHANGE> I would recommend extreme caution when using WHO'S WHO IN AVIATION HISTORY. I had my doubts about it when I noted that it didn't contain BC Hucks (references to the first Englishman to loop are usually my yardstick when evaluating such books). Some of the other entries are not only sketchy but the information contained within them is wrong. A great pity really as this sort of book would be/should be really useful. Nick -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Alegi [mailto:gregory.alegi@fastwebnet.it] Sent: 17 January 2003 09:50 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: Biard >But that time Supermarine was, technically speaking, Vickers-Supermarine. Absolutely yes. But the facilities were physically separate and Henshaw recalled the interview taking place at Weybridge and the first flight, in a Wellington, at Brooklands. Anyway, I also checked the (rather basic) WHO'S WHO IN AVIATION HISTORY compiled a few years ago by Bill Longyard (Novato, Presidio Press, 1994) and sure enough, the Biard entry only carries a birth year ... Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:31:44 +0100 From: Gregory Alegi To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: Nick That is what I meant by "rather basic". On the other hand, I remember that I provided Bill with a number of birth/death dates for Italian entries and discovered that no such data had been compiled in Italy by anyone. The book is far from perfect, but we have been scratching our collective heads for a week now without getting much farther with Biard's deate of death than he did ... Similarly, he doesn't have a date of death for Gustave Delage, but no one in France seems to have it at hand either ... Much the same happened years later with basic data for the Italian aces for the Grub Street book (sorry for the advertising!). After combing all known sources there remained three pilots whose passing had gone unrecorded. Eventually, I wrote to the "Anagrafe" (City Registrar?) of their birthplace which - under our centralised system - always receives a notification of death for people born in their town. Would that work in the UK? If I can be provocative without seeming gratuitously offensive, the Hucks example seems a bit too British for a book which aims to be international in outlook. I am more surprised about the omission of people such as Piazza, who flew the world's first heavier than air operational sortie, or Gavotti, who dropped the first bombs in anger, and so on. Gregory >I would recommend extreme caution when using WHO'S WHO IN AVIATION >HISTORY. I had my doubts about it when I noted that it didn't contain BC >Hucks (references to the first Englishman to loop are usually my yardstick >when evaluating such books). Some of the other entries are not only sketchy >but the information contained within them is wrong. A great pity really as >this sort of book would be/should be really useful. > >Nick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gregory Alegi [mailto:gregory.alegi@fastwebnet.it] >Sent: 17 January 2003 09:50 >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [CCI] Re: Biard > > >>But that time Supermarine was, technically speaking, Vickers-Supermarine. > >Absolutely yes. But the facilities were physically separate and >Henshaw recalled the interview taking place at Weybridge and the >first flight, in a Wellington, at Brooklands. > >Anyway, I also checked the (rather basic) WHO'S WHO IN AVIATION >HISTORY compiled a few years ago by Bill Longyard (Novato, Presidio >Press, 1994) and sure enough, the Biard entry only carries a birth >year ... > >Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:06:20 -0500 From: "Brian.E.Hall" To: "cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: e-mails Message-ID: <200301170706_MC3-1-24D8-B05D@compuserve.com> John Glad to hear you acknowledge there are other counties besides Essex! You may not have noticed on your journey that on your left you failed to notice the "Jewel in the Crown" of counties, namely Hampshire! With regard to your list of entertainers, surely the best known at the time was Robert Lorraine. Another, more widely known to Stage and to post WW2 radio listeners was Billy Cotton. I seem to remember he flew as a gunner in FE2b's... Brian.E ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:14:37 -0000 From: Nick Forder To: "'cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Re: e-mails Message-ID: <059A77A01B10D611B19C00065B19D2F31783C6@EXCHANGE> Brian I'll confirm the 'Billy Cotton experience' next week. Less said about Essex the better (full of people claiming they live in East Anglia). Not overly impressed with Hampshire. God's own county of Norfolk ? Different matter entirely... Nick -----Original Message----- From: Brian.E.Hall [mailto:Sedgecope@compuserve.com] Sent: 17 January 2003 12:08 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [CCI] Re: e-mails John Glad to hear you acknowledge there are other counties besides Essex! You may not have noticed on your journey that on your left you failed to notice the "Jewel in the Crown" of counties, namely Hampshire! With regard to your list of entertainers, surely the best known at the time was Robert Lorraine. Another, more widely known to Stage and to post WW2 radio listeners was Billy Cotton. I seem to remember he flew as a gunner in FE2b's... Brian.E ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:42:04 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: "Discussion group" Subject: H C Biard Message-ID: <00da01c2be2e$388134c0$1cc00650@your9al5izx2s9> Gregory If he had been born and died in Scotland, as I understand it, then his birth and Death certificate would have been filed together. But this is not the case in England and Wales, his birth and death certificate would be lodged with the Registrar of the district where he was born or died. Copies of these entries are then sent to the Office of Population Studies at Smedley Hydro, but they are filed together. In this case as I understand Biard was possibly born in France, his birth certificate is presumably French. Peter Wright has given me a possible clue though and I shall have to try the Fareham location as the next step. A check of the indices to The Aerospace Chronology MJH Taylor, Tri service publications, Biard gets a mention but not in the Guinness Book of Air Facts & Feats. You pays your money!!! John G ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:09:33 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: "Discussion group" Subject: Biard Message-ID: <010b01c2be3a$70f5c210$1cc00650@your9al5izx2s9> According to Biards RAeC card, he was born at Godalming in Surrey (now that really is god's country) 1 January 1892? And was using the name Henry Charles Biard. John G ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:52:51 -0000 From: "Peter Wright" To: Subject: Re: e-mails Message-ID: <002701c2be59$b83f05e0$8b0f073e@NELLIE> John Dogzbody, Another entertainment RFC/RNAS lad was writer-cum-farce producer Ben Travers. I have a signed photo of him in RNAS uniform at Chingford. He was taught to fly by Warren Merriam. Peter W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "johnbarfoot" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:32 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: e-mails > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian.E.Hall > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:42 PM > Subject: [CCI] Re: e-mails > > > Evening WWI Buffs and Spammers! I have just returned from a few days in > Dorset to find 36 emails awaiting my pleasure. > Simple soul that I am, I thought, at last long last we CCI members have > another discussion in full swing, thanks to the Red Baron or who ever. I > deleted the offending spam email without reading it for obvious reasons, but > the majority of the remaining 35 have little to do with the war to end all > wars! If we want to get out of our prams about something, may I point out > that Nick Forder has been missed off the New Years Honours list in spite of > all his efforts to keep this discussion group interesting, keep up the good > work Nick. During F/Sgt Dogzbody's trip down memory lane at Christmas he > mentioned Jack Warner (Jack Waters) who served with No.12 Sqn RFC/RAF, how > many more well known entertainers served with the RFC/RAF & RNAS during WWI. > Others that come to mind as I type are Ivor Novello (David Ivor Davies) RNAS > and Mervyn Johns RFC/RAF, I expect there are a few more, any suggestions > anyone? if not use the delete button! The best of British as I remember > it, John B. Essex Chapter. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:00:34 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Entertainers in WWi Message-ID: <186.1498882f.2b59acd2@aol.com> Entertainers who served in WWI: Basil Hallam, Robert Loraine, Basil Rathbone (who lost his brother John in the war), Lewis Casson, Russell Thorndike, Felx Aylmar. Loraine "demobed" a number of actors into his production of Cyrano de Bergerac. I have the cast list here which I can reproduce but do not know what names might be recognizeed by U.K. members with some knowledge of the stage. Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:04:02 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: <4e.1641ab01.2b59ada2@aol.com> In Britain I know there is a place you can get death certificates, but I think you have to have date of death, which is the problem anyhow. Keep trucking. We once looked for the obit of a gentleman who it ended up died at age 98: llucky we did not give up say at age 90. Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:07:11 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <115.1da75f70.2b59ae5f@aol.com> Robert Loraine complained and made jokes all his life about people who endowed his last name with an extra "r." Lannie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:04:22 -0000 From: "johnbarfoot" To: Subject: Re: e-mails Message-ID: <009701c2be6a$87a8e980$cc926fd4@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian.E.Hall To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:07 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: e-mails Hello Brian, Yes I agree Robert Lorraine a very famous pre-our war actor and aviator must have been the best known entertainer serving with the RFC/RNAS. We must of course add dear old Billy Cotton to our list, I hope Nick reminds us of what young Billy got up to as a serviceman. There was another dance band leader who also served in the RFC, it could have been Henry Hall, can anyone out there confirm this? Two more pre-our war entertainers who served with the RFC were Basil Hallam Radford and Vernon Castle. Two film actors from the 1930/40's and beyond we can add to the list are Reginald Denny, and Ronald Adam. Sorry old mate, these days Essex must qualify for the "Jewel in the Crown" title with our vast expanding rapidly population from India and Pakistan. Thank's for the reminder Nick, I will look up Hanger Notes when time permits, I had forgotten about that list. John B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:33:24 -0500 From: "Brian.E.Hall" To: "cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Biard Message-ID: <200301171633_MC3-1-2532-6585@compuserve.com> Lannie >> I think you have to have date of death, << If you know the name (which must be the most frequently mentioned on this list for some time!) providing you give the date within a year or so, the Office of Population Statistics (OPCS) at Southport, Lancs will usually oblige. If you don't know the date within a few years for a few extra quid they will do a ten year search. The address is OPCS, Smedley Hydro, Merseyside, PR8 2HH. As it is some time since I used the service, the telephone number I have is probably obisolete: they probably have a website as well now. If you want a quick answer I suggest you telephone the "Family Tree Magazine" on 01472 840111 who I am sure will be only too pleased to help you with the telephone number. Brian.E ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:20:37 -0000 From: "John Grech" To: Subject: Re: e-mails Message-ID: <01e701c2be76$a98613f0$1cc00650@your9al5izx2s9> John How about Pat O'Brien ex 66 Squadron , who appeared with his wife in "Shadows of the West" (circa 1920) and then when she left him, he committed suicide. John G P.S. Surrey is the jewel in the crown. ----- Original Message ----- From: "johnbarfoot" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [CCI] Re: e-mails > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian.E.Hall > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:07 PM > Subject: [CCI] Re: e-mails > > > Hello Brian, Yes I agree Robert Lorraine a very famous pre-our war actor > and aviator must have been the best known entertainer serving with the > RFC/RNAS. We must of course add dear old Billy Cotton to our list, I hope > Nick reminds us of what young Billy got up to as a serviceman. There was > another dance band leader who also served in the RFC, it could have been > Henry Hall, can anyone out there confirm this? Two more pre-our war > entertainers who served with the RFC were Basil Hallam Radford and Vernon > Castle. Two film actors from the 1930/40's and beyond we can add to the > list are Reginald Denny, and Ronald Adam. Sorry old mate, these days Essex > must qualify for the "Jewel in the Crown" title with our vast expanding > rapidly > population from India and Pakistan. Thank's for the reminder Nick, I will > look > up Hanger Notes when time permits, I had forgotten about that list. John B. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:20:09 +0000 From: Steve Cox To: Subject: Re: (no subject) Message-ID: > From: GaGin1@aol.com > Robert Loraine complained and made jokes all his life about people who > endowed his last name with an extra "r." > Lannie > Well would *you* want to be called Lorainer? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:30:11 EST From: GaGin1@aol.com To: cci@mustang.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: (no subject) Message-ID: <22.350484ff.2b59fa13@aol.com> Ah, Steve, I am beginning to think this discussion line contains a hard core of comedians. Lannie ------------------------------ End of CCI Digest 790 *********************