WWI Digest 4972 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? by "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" 2) Re: Columbia by Ken Schmitt 3) Re: No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? by Zulis@aol.com 4) Re: No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? by "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" 5) Re: Polish Albatros C.Is by "Alberto Casirati" 6) Re: Help about Polish Albatros C.Is by "Alberto Casirati" 7) Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? by "Alberto Casirati" 8) Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? by "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" 9) Stupid email.... by "Shane Weier" 10) RE: Stupid email.... by "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" 11) Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? by Nigel Cheffers-Heard 12) RE: Stupid email.... by Shane Weier 13) Re: Columbia by dave.fleming@dial.pipex.com 14) RE: Help about Polish Albatros C.Is by "Tomasz Gronczewski" 15) RE: Stupid email....hotmail subscribers by Shane Weier 16) La familia Disney en tu hogar... by "Alejandra Peraza" 17) Bruno Loerzer Fokker DVII by "ARSENY K (RIGA, LATVIA)" 18) Search for Strombecker Decal Set by Henry Shields 19) why by Clay W Fulcher 20) Wanted decals from A/G No. 112 - Parsons by "David Calhoun" 21) Re: Lothar's Dreidecker by "John & Allison Cyganowski" 22) Re: why by "John & Allison Cyganowski" 23) Re: why by Clay W Fulcher 24) ISO: Spa. 48 SPAD 13s by "stefenk" 25) Info for Warren and for new folks to the WWI List.. by "Dave Burke" 26) Re: Columbia by "Dave Burke" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:52:06 +1100 From: "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" To: Subject: No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? Message-ID: <001101c2ca7f$37d44230$314e2dcb@future> I am working on my 32nd Nieuport. I plan to do it in the Estonian markings that come with the kit. My question is that on page 31 of Nieuport Fighters and again on page 44 it shows an Estonian Nieuport 17 with no MGs at all. Is this correct? Does anyone have any info on these 17s used by this country? Cheers Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 23:59:28 -0600 From: Ken Schmitt To: Subject: Re: Columbia Message-ID: Diego says: > It is a tragedy indeed. May the astronauts of the future be as brave and > daring as all those who gave their lives in the quest of knowledge, whatever > their nationality or beliefs. > They shall live forever This from an internet survey:   In light of the tragedy, the space program should:   Continue despite the risks. 88%    Continue with only unmanned missions. 6%    Be abandoned. It's too dangerous. 6% Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 01:59:21 -0500 From: Zulis@aol.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? Message-ID: <1A803DB8.52EB7479.000121E7@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2003 12:52:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, rossmoor@bigpond.net.au writes: > page 31 of > Nieuport Fighters and again on page 44 it shows an Estonian Nieuport 17 > with no MGs at all. Is this correct? Does anyone have any > info on these > 17s used by this country? Well, I have more Latvian aircraft resources than Estonian, but the Estonian Air Force Special put out by Insignia only has a drawing, side view of no.46... and they have drawn in a machine gun directly in front of the cockpit (not above the wing). So - you decide. Do they have a pic which confirms this, or were they just being sloppy? Dave Z ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:18:38 +1100 From: "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" To: Subject: Re: No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? Message-ID: <001401c2ca8b$4e4c18b0$314e2dcb@future> The pic is not the best but both this pic and the side colour profile don't show the fuselage mounted Vickers. Cheers Ross -----Original Message----- From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org] On Behalf Of Zulis@aol.com Sent: Sunday, 2 February 2003 6:02 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [WWI] Re: No MG on the Estonian Nieuport? In a message dated 2/2/2003 12:52:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, rossmoor@bigpond.net.au writes: > page 31 of > Nieuport Fighters and again on page 44 it shows an Estonian Nieuport 17 > with no MGs at all. Is this correct? Does anyone have any > info on these > 17s used by this country? Well, I have more Latvian aircraft resources than Estonian, but the Estonian Air Force Special put out by Insignia only has a drawing, side view of no.46... and they have drawn in a machine gun directly in front of the cockpit (not above the wing). So - you decide. Do they have a pic which confirms this, or were they just being sloppy? Dave Z ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:53:54 +0100 From: "Alberto Casirati" To: Cc: "WW1 Modeling List" Subject: Re: Polish Albatros C.Is Message-ID: <006801c2ca90$a0f976c0$93ef22d4@s> Thanks, Mike ! Alberto Casirati ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:55:54 +0100 From: "Alberto Casirati" To: "Ray" Cc: "WW1 Modeling List" Subject: Re: Help about Polish Albatros C.Is Message-ID: <006b01c2ca90$a2385f60$93ef22d4@s> Dear Ray, thanks a lot for your kind assistance: I would love getting those scans ! What can I do to reciprocate ? All the veru best, Alberto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: ; "Alberto Casirati" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [WWI] Help about Polish Albatros C.Is Alberto, there a few pictures of C.I'sin polish markings - One of which is upturned so you can see that its wings are camouflaged in Samoloty Wojskowe W Polsce 1918-1924. of course though I have this reference I am not Polish and can only look at the pictures and plans. Anyway if you want I can scan the photos in so you can see them. Ray On Saturday 01 February 2003 09:39, Alberto Casirati wrote: > I am working on the Joystick vacuum-formed kit of the Albatros C.I and > would like to finish it in Polish markings. > Unfortunately, however, my modest reference files do not offer any picture > or reliable colour profile. > Is anyone able to suggest were I can find some ? > > Thanks very much in advance ! > > All the very best, > > Alberto Casirati ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:57:03 +0100 From: "Alberto Casirati" To: "WW1 Modeling List" Subject: Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? Message-ID: <006c01c2ca90$ac8fc5c0$93ef22d4@s> Dear Ross, in the majority of cases, Nieuport fule and oil tanks were plain copper sheet, although, on occasions, they were aluminium. All the very best, Alberto Casirati ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:22:15 +1100 From: "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" To: Subject: Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? Message-ID: <001a01c2ca94$35075a00$314e2dcb@future> Alberto, Thank you for the info. I can now paint my fuel tank. Cheers Ross -----Original Message----- From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Casirati Sent: Sunday, 2 February 2003 7:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [WWI] Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? Dear Ross, in the majority of cases, Nieuport fule and oil tanks were plain copper sheet, although, on occasions, they were aluminium. All the very best, Alberto Casirati ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:10:15 +1000 From: "Shane Weier" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Stupid email.... Message-ID: Hi all I'm not getting any mail from the list and unsubbing/resubbing isn't making any difference. Don't know whether hotmail is extirely blocked by the listserver or something so this is a test mail I can (hopefully) see from a second subscription via my work email Gotta get this fixed - sufferering hellish withdrawal :-( Shane ******************************** My Strine is a Toad in Disguise ******************************** _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:20:21 +1100 From: "Ross & Wendy Moorhouse" To: Subject: RE: Stupid email.... Message-ID: <002001c2ca9c$5255aa50$314e2dcb@future> Its just a slow Sunday Shane. Cheers Ross -----Original Message----- From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org] On Behalf Of Shane Weier Sent: Sunday, 2 February 2003 8:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [WWI] Stupid email.... Hi all I'm not getting any mail from the list and unsubbing/resubbing isn't making any difference. Don't know whether hotmail is extirely blocked by the listserver or something so this is a test mail I can (hopefully) see from a second subscription via my work email Gotta get this fixed - sufferering hellish withdrawal :-( Shane ******************************** My Strine is a Toad in Disguise ******************************** _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:25:46 +0000 From: Nigel Cheffers-Heard To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Colour of Nieuport fuel tanks? Message-ID: >Could someone remind me what colour the fuel tank is in a Nieuport? > >Cheers > >Ross Inside or out? :) N -- Nigel Cheffers-Heard photography + design tel: +44 (0)1392 87 58 57 fax: +44 (0)1392 87 74 97 mobile: 0771 261 4514 nigelch@cheffers.co.uk www.cheffers.co.uk Laburnums, Bridge Hill Topsham, Exeter EX3 0QQ, UK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:19:47 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Stupid email.... Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C710595922C@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Ross > > Its just a slow Sunday Shane. No mate, do me some credit. I can send emails like that test to the list from my work address, but they never show up at my subscribed address on hotmail - OTOH they DO come back to my work address just fine. I can unsubscribe from the hotmail account, do a "review wwi" from work and see that I'm off the susbscriber list, then resub from hotmail (and check it from work to see myself back on the list) Still no listmail. And that includes ones *I* sent, and one Ray was kind enough to echo to me offlist *at* my hotmail account Have done this four times today with no luck :-( The only conclusion is that the listserver won't or can't route mail to my hotmail account. Otherwise the hotmail accound works fine. Starting to wonder whether other hotmail suscribers are having a quiet day.....or whether Matt is having the last laugh! Shane > ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. For general enquires: ++61 7 3833 8000 Support Centre e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au Support Centre phone: Australia 1800500646 International ++61 7 38338042 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 10:47:22 +0000 From: dave.fleming@dial.pipex.com To: Subject: Re: Columbia Message-ID: <1044182842.3e3cf73a4f0e9@netmail.pipex.net> Quoting Mark Vaughan-Jackson : > Out of a long lurk mode (at least a year) Mark! Good to hear from you again! Longer than that I think - wasn't it just after you did that marathon 'Aircraft of Newfoundland' display? > My soul is scarred in this job (imagine working in a news room for this > and > 9-11 and the Gulf War and just about any disaster that hits) > Unlike most I can't turn off the TV or stop looking at the stills and > stories. . .it's my job to sift through them all. > You must wish you were back being the Arts correspondent. > I only hope their loss will herald a new era of space vehicle rather > than a > retreat from this final frontier. It's already underway: http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Sept02/VA0210.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:48:43 +0100 From: "Tomasz Gronczewski" To: Subject: RE: Help about Polish Albatros C.Is Message-ID: > I am working on the Joystick vacuum-formed kit of the Albatros C.I and would > like to finish it in Polish markings. > Unfortunately, however, my modest reference files do not offer any picture > or reliable colour profile. > Is anyone able to suggest were I can find some ? Alberto, I have already sent you off-list the two profiles of the Polish Albatros C.Is in natural wood/CDL schemes. The profiles were published in 2000, thus they seem to be fairly reliable. Tomasz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:23:05 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Cc: "'aew@wwi-models.org'" , Subject: RE: Stupid email....hotmail subscribers Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C710595922F@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Hi all > I'm not getting any mail from the list and > unsubbing/resubbing isn't making > any difference. Are there any other hotmail subscribers receiving email from the list at all? I've just created an entirely new account and subscribed successfully through it (as seen my using my work email to access the subscriber list) .... ....but the new hotmail account doesn't get email from the list either, not even the welcome message from the server when I subscribed. Both hotmail accounts work to and from listees and others inside and outside Australia, just not *from* the list. I suspect that mail routing is stuffed up somewhere (or some @sshole is filtering the list as spam) and want to know whether it's hotmail in general or just hotmail-msn in Australia. I'd be obliged if any hotmail listees who see this answer me either via the list or at.... sdw@qld.mim.com.au Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. For general enquires: ++61 7 3833 8000 Support Centre e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au Support Centre phone: Australia 1800500646 International ++61 7 38338042 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 05:07:41 -0600 From: "Alejandra Peraza" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: La familia Disney en tu hogar... Message-ID: <41327-2200320211740950@leo> ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Imag=EDnate a los personajes cl=E1sicos de Disney como maestros de ingl=E9s=2E=2E=2E Nuestros hijos aprenden divirti=E9ndose con "EL MUNDO DE INGLES DE DISNEY" HAZ CLICK AQUI Y GANATE UN REGALO=2E=20 http://www=2Emundodeingles=2Ecom/start=2Ephp?af=3DP02 *Promoci=F3n v=E1lida solo para la Rep=FAblica Mexicana Este e-mail no podr=E1 ser considerado SPAM mientras incluya una forma de = ser removido=2E=20 Para ser removido de futuros correos simplemente responda con la palabra "= DEVUELTO"=2E=20 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MUNDO DISNEY

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Imag=EDnate a los personajes cl=E1sicos de Disn= ey
como=20 maestros de ingl=E9s=2E=2E=2E

Nuestros hijos aprenden divirti=E9ndose con
"EL = MUNDO DE INGLES DE=20 DISNEY"

HAZ CLICK AQUI Y GANATE UN REGALO=2E
http://www=2Emundodeingles=2Ecom/start=2Ephp?af=3DP= 02
*Promoci=F3n v=E1lida solo para la Rep=FAblica=20 Mexicana


Este e-mail no podr=E1 ser considerado SPAM mientras incluya una = forma de=20 ser removido=2E
Para ser removido de futuros correos simplemente respo= nda con=20 la palabra "DEVUELTO"=2E=20

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:21:18 +0200 From: "ARSENY K (RIGA, LATVIA)" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Bruno Loerzer Fokker DVII Message-ID: <14712213025.20030202152118@inbox.lv> 02.02.03 "Bruno Loerzer Fokker DVII" Hello, colleagues! I have one question, concerning Bruno Loerzer's Fokker DVII (early). Roden's manual shows that wheel discs should be white, but also have Bruno Loerzer's plane's profile with those wheel discs black. Which colour is the right colour? =] Thanx everyone aforehand Best wishes, Arseny Kardash Riga, LATVIA icq #160254499 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 05:58:34 -0800 (PST) From: Henry Shields To: wwi@mustang.sr.unh.edu Cc: hsshields@yahoo.com Subject: Search for Strombecker Decal Set Message-ID: <20030202135834.119.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Your name turned up on a Google search under 'Strombecker', maybe you can help. I have most of the wood parts of a 1950s Strombecker B-29 kit, and would like to complete it properly this time. Need decals, plastic props, and landing gear. Can you provide a source, especially the decals. A complete kit occasionally appears on E-Bay, but don't want to deny that to another buyer when I only need part of it. Please advise, thanks, Henry shields. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 07:56:12 -0700 From: Clay W Fulcher To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: why Message-ID: <20030202.075612.1000.0.mtngoat01@juno.com> Tragic result of bureaucratic fumbling and mismanagement. -Clay http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,887236,00.html ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:04:15 -0500 From: "David Calhoun" To: Subject: Wanted decals from A/G No. 112 - Parsons Message-ID: <001b01c2cacc$5aa38440$8ddb0944@ri.cox.net> Hi everyone, I am looking for a set of 1/48 decals for Edwin Parson's Spa 3 SPAD XIII.. I need them to do his SPAD for our Lafayette Escadrille exhibit that will be displayed at the new England Air Museum. These are on Americal Gryphon sheet #112 Les Cigognes de Guynemer aircraft #38. I would like all markings on this sheet for that aircraft only, and am too cheap to buy the whole sheet for 1 set of markings. I can trade markings for Nieuports from sheet #111 or any plane from the 3 Lafayette Escadrille sheets. Or let me know what you need, I may have it in my collection. Please e-mail me off list, I am not currently subscribed. Thanks, David Calhoun calhoun146@cox.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:21:02 -0500 From: "John & Allison Cyganowski" To: Subject: Re: Lothar's Dreidecker Message-ID: <005801c2cace$b358a500$e23e5b0c@millipore.com> We know LvR crashed Dr.1 454/17 on 13 March 1918. There are crash photos of this ship. It is just difficult to tell what the colors were from the B&W photos (Okay Shane, impossible.) The difficulty is that the photos were probably taken with orthochomatic film which is insensitive to long wavelength light, i.e. yellows and reds come out dark. Add to this all of the print reproduction & re-touching that has gone on since 1919 and it is hard to tell just what you have left. Case in point: Franks & Wyngarten "Fokker Dr.1 Aces of WWI" pg. 26 has one of the crash photos. The part of the upper wing that was still intact (excluding the overpainted cross field), & the top of the turtle deck appear to be light colored. This would appear to rule out a long wavelength color such as yellow or red. However, this could also be glare from a glossy surface that would make the wing appear to be light. A photo on page 17 of "Fokker Dr.1 In Action" captioned as a crash from Jasta 12 is in actuality 454/17 (just one of many mis-captions in this book). In this photo the turtle deck appears dark. On the basis of this photo, it is possible that this ship could have in fact been painted as often depicted; yellow turtle deck & sides from fuselage cross fields aft with a yellow top wing and darkend overpainted cross fields. As you can see there are many difficulties in interpreting B&W photos. In the end this is just what the proposed color schemes are : interpretations. Regards, John Cyg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Brian Kirby" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 7:45 PM Subject: [WWI] Lothar's Dreidecker > So, the yellow outer upper wings on Lothar's Dr.1 > (454/17) are fictional? They have been depicted this > way in paintings, Osprey profiles, kit instructions... > what gives? Am asking 'cause I read this assertion in > old List correspondence. (Thanks again, Google...) > > > Sean > > ===== > www.pitpass.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:27:45 -0500 From: "John & Allison Cyganowski" To: Subject: Re: why Message-ID: <005d01c2cacf$a303ee20$e23e5b0c@millipore.com> The management of NASA is as complex as the shuttle itself. There may well be some merit in these arguments - but lets not rush to judgement. We need to be sure for the the sake of the Astronauts and their families that the conclusions we reach are substantive and not superficial. Regards, John Cyg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay W Fulcher" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: [WWI] why > Tragic result of bureaucratic fumbling and mismanagement. > -Clay > > http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,887236,00.html > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:06:29 -0700 From: Clay W Fulcher To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: why Message-ID: <20030202.090630.1000.1.mtngoat01@juno.com> I agree with this. But if these arguments are substantive and not superficial, changes do need to be made...yes, for the sake of the Astronauts and their families. I am sure there will be ample self-examination (again) by NASA, as well as external examination over the next days, weeks and months. Also, the vast majority of NASA employees, and the teams that work so hard to make the Space program the success that it is and has been, should not be denigrated in any way. There are alot of federal politics and key bureaucratic brick walls that need to be cleaned from the system, in MHO. But we shall see. --Clay On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:26:55 -0500 (EST) "John & Allison Cyganowski" writes: > The management of NASA is as complex as the shuttle itself. There > may well > be some merit in these arguments - but lets not rush to judgement. > We need > to be sure for the the sake of the Astronauts and their families > that the > conclusions we reach are substantive and not superficial. > > Regards, > John Cyg. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clay W Fulcher" > To: "Multiple recipients of list" > Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:59 AM > Subject: [WWI] why > > > Tragic result of bureaucratic fumbling and mismanagement. > > -Clay > > > http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,887236,00.html ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:00:59 -0500 From: "stefenk" To: "WWI Modeling List" Subject: ISO: Spa. 48 SPAD 13s Message-ID: <104419251401@ispsnet.net> G'day, List, Were any of Spa. 48's "yellow" scheme SPAD 13s of the later, square-tipped wing series? If so, where might I find a photo reference? TIA to all and best wishes, Stefen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:08:34 -0600 From: "Dave Burke" To: Subject: Info for Warren and for new folks to the WWI List.. Message-ID: <001801c2cadd$b8fe6c60$4293aec7@computer> Hi Guys, Usually Lee Mesinger does this, but let me step up to the plate: From time to time, stupid chain mail shows up on the List. Sometimes the temptation is too strong to resist to reply to it. HOWEVER The List has software that is supposed to delete the server that sent the spam e-mail to the List. It does this via the subject line. IF YOU CLICK 'REPLY' to a spam e-mail that has been sent thru the List, your account may end up being automatically blocked from the List by this software. It is then a real b*tch to get it straightened out - several other List members know this all too well. I hate those damned begging e-mails too - but should the temptation to reply prove to be too much - ALTER THE SUBJECT LINE slightly so you won't be caught by the software. Dicta Ira!! DB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:34:53 -0600 From: "Dave Burke" To: Subject: Re: Columbia Message-ID: <002001c2cae1$65c4e4d0$4293aec7@computer> Hi Again Folks, The U.S. Space program stands on the shoulders of 17 of its astronauts. Apollo 207 (Apollo I), Challenger, and now Columbia. At such a time, it is appropriate to question why we fly - or why we travel into space. Man has hardly reached 100 years since the first manned, powered flight of a heavier-than-air craft. But why do we choose to fly? There are those who would say that it is envy of birds, of bats, of insects. It is the timeless dream to shoulder wings and step from the firmament to tread upon the air. But I take a more animal approach. Man is a physically defenseless creature. We are not endowed with great speed, nor great strength. We have no claws, no fangs. No thick hide, nor venom. We rely solely on our brains to survive. Throughout history, it is our inquisitive nature, and problem-solving abilities that have allowed us to grow into what we are now. Part of this is the ability to dare, and to take risks. As the saying goes: 'Nothing ventured, nothing gained'. This is the cornerstone of the human animal. Discovery and benefit are not the domain of the timid or faint of heart - one must be able to reach out and command his destiny, regardless of the potential cost. Man flies because he dares to. Because flight not only offers the dream, but the reality of improvements in life and lifestyle. Spaceflight doubly so. To my knowledge, little has been compiled on the benefits of our space program to the average person. Medicines, clothing, food, shelter - the basics for survival - have all been benefitted by the space program. And the ultimate neccessity - knowledge - has been elevated beyond the dreams of but a century ago. For a risk to be justified, there must be a potential reward.We have been rewarded handsomely by the aerospace industry. Should we continue to venture into space? To answer this question, I ask two of my own: First: Can a machine think, react, and behave intuitively as a human does? The answer is no. Not even with the most advanced software and research have we created machines that are truly curious or intuitive. They are not 'the same' as human explorers, nor can they do the job 'as well'. I hope that they never will - for we cannot allow ourselves to be lazy and complacent, sending machines to do a man's job. Would this be the case, we should become bored - and a bored humanity is a very dangerous one. Second: Is everyone's curiousity satified? Do we know enough about the Universe? I leave that question to be answered individually. For me, I say, we must return to space. We cannot admit defeat, nor can we retreat. We must advance for there is no alternative. To the meek, I say, 'Monkey, return to your tree. You are safe there. I am Human, and I must see what is over the next hill'. If NASA needs a volunteer, my helmet size is a Large. I'm ready to go. DB ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 4972 **********************