WWI Digest 4642 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. by "stefenk" 2) Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers by ssh 3) Re: Datafile Scale Plans by "Diego Fernetti" 4) Re: Datafile Scale Plans by PetersList@aol.com 5) Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. by xtv16@dial.pipex.com 6) Re: Now Motorcycle questions was/is Dicta Ira Survey by Michael Fletcher 7) Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers by Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) 8) Re: Nieuport build by Michael Fletcher 9) Re: Guynemer Nie.11 question by Michael Fletcher 10) Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. by "Lance Krieg" 11) Re: Datafile Scale Plans by "Lance Krieg" 12) Re:Dave Fleming -> Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers by Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) 13) Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. by Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) 14) Re: Gallipoli, OtF and seaplanes was Re: Re: Gotha seaplanes!!!! by Karen Rychlewski 15) Re: Datafile Scale Plans by "Grzegorz Mazurowski" 16) Pegase by tbittners@sprintmail.com 17) Re: Gallipoli, OtF and seaplanes was Re: Re: Gotha seaplanes!!!! by Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) 18) Re: Datafile Scale Plans by Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) 19) Re: Now Motorcycle questions was/is Dicta Ira Survey by "Brent Theobald" 20) OTF indices by "Bob Pearson" 21) Re: Now Motorcycle questions was/is Dicta Ira Survey by Karen Rychlewski 22) RE: Gotha G.V engine housing's colour by "Liefferinckx Frederic" 23) Re: Datafile Scale Plans by Larry Marshall 24) Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. by Larry Marshall 25) Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. by "Jamie Gagnon" 26) Methuen - FS595 Concordance by "Mark Shannon" 27) Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance by David Fleming 28) Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance by Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) 29) Re: Guynemer Nie.11 (N836) question by Michael Fletcher 30) Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance by Dave Fleming 31) Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance by Larry Marshall 32) Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance by "Bob Pearson" 33) A question by Dennis Ugulano 34) Re: A question by "Matt Bittner" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:51:25 -0400 From: "stefenk" To: "WWI Modeling List" Subject: Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. Message-ID: <103166126501@ispsnet.net> PS. Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:59:57 -0700, "Bob Laskodi" wrote << As someone with over 25 years experience in analyzing data collected from remote sensing platforms (digital & photographic)..." To paraphrase a well-known quip, "Whenever anyone starts talking about the length of their resume, I reach for my Luger." A certain well-known personality and self-appointed color authority at The Aerodrome regularly argues on the basis of his 60 years of research, but it is this very indifidual who appears to have been responsible for all those ever so precies shades of colors on the basis of his analsysis of black-and-white photos. I have the case there that color theory and the science and practice of photography do not permit the absolute identification of hues from black-and-white photographs. However, it would be equally erroneous to suggest that such photographs cannot provide any useful guides, at least in those cases where we have extra-photographic data. In any event, as far as German "purple" goes, the best evidence we now have appears to be the Halberstadt noted above. In my view, this rather constrains the wiggle room allowed by that clarion call to artistic freedom known as "Dicta Ira." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:01:16 -0400 From: ssh To: Subject: Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers Message-ID: <3D7DD1170001A959@mta04.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) Kristjan, - What is Photopositive? - during etching process, how do you prevent the solution from etching the brass from the under side? Thanks very much for this 'primer' Sanjeev ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:04:02 -0300 From: "Diego Fernetti" To: Subject: Re: Datafile Scale Plans Message-ID: <020901c258e3$ae9647a0$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Lance! Compare the rigging with the Albatros D.II on the datafile with the rigging on the Albatros D.II on the Special. Some wires are missing from the newest version! D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:34:11 EDT From: PetersList@aol.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Datafile Scale Plans Message-ID: <6f.2d719401.2aaf7903@aol.com> In common with many listees I build to what I like to call "Datafile Standard". But they definitely need checking every time, and on more than one axis. The 2% error appears to be a common problem with Ian Stair's drawings in particular. Drawings often need just as much correction as kits and it follows that the fact a kit compares well with a certain drawing is no indication of its accuracy. I know of at least one Datafile drawing that is actually based on a kit! It's a jungle out there ;) cheers Peter L ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:34:19 +0100 From: xtv16@dial.pipex.com To: Subject: Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. Message-ID: <1031675659.3d7e1f0bc25b1@netmail.pipex.net> Quoting stefenk : > ever so precies shades of colors on the basis of his analsysis of > black-and-white photos. I have the case there that color theory and the > science and practice of photography do not permit the absolute > identification of hues from black-and-white photographs. However, it > would > be equally erroneous to suggest that such photographs cannot provide any > useful guides, at least in those cases where we have extra-photographic > data. As I said on the recent thread about Albatros fuselage colours, we shouldn't underestimate the possibility that filters were used on these B+W shots. Dave Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:35:40 -0400 From: Michael Fletcher To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Now Motorcycle questions was/is Dicta Ira Survey Message-ID: <3D7E1F5C.770DCDCF@rogers.com> Just finished "An American Pursuit Pilot in France 1917-1919" about one Roland Richardson (1/3 of a vicotry), in which aside from spending a lot of time enjoying his time flying various Nieuports, and complaining about the Sopwiths he was forced to test, also motored around a lot in various motorcycles, including Indians and Harleys, both with and without sidecars. Mike Fl. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:55:23 +0200 From: Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) To: Subject: Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers Message-ID: <000701c258ea$db3e4d00$6653fea9@kristjar> > Kristjan, > - What is Photopositive? Photo positive is a liquid you apply to the Brass sheet with a spray can and let it dry, usually for 12-24 hours. When you lay a negative on top of the coated brass sheet and it is exposed to Ultra Violet light (including sunlight) the UV light causes the part of the Photo Positive coat that is not covered by the black areas of the transparent negative to change chemically. This chemical change causes the unsheilded parts of the photopositive to dissolve quicker if you dip the Brass sheet in Developer liquid than the parts that were not exposed to UV light because they were sheilded by the black areas of the Negative. After the developing process what you are left with are patches of photopositive on the brass sheets surface that correspond to the blackened areas of the negative. When you etch the developed sheet the sections of the sheet not coated by photopositive get eaten away by the Natrium Persulfat. If you leave the sheet in the etching liqid too long the ethcing liquid starts eating under the edges of the coated areas, I call that under-ethcing for lack of a better word. You can also paint the shapes you want to use onto the brass sheet with black paint or you can print the shapes of the Panels and other objects you want to etch onto clear plastic foil with a photocopyer and transfer the Copy toner onto the sheet by laying the plastic foil with the toner down toucing the brass sheet and then lay a steam iron (minus the steam) onto the plastic foil. I mean a steam iron like the ones you use to iron shirts. Photo ethching takes longer but it is easyer and the results are more consistent. > - during etching process, how do you prevent the solution from > etching the brass from the under side? > Thanks very much for this 'primer' > Sanjeev > Either glue Tesa film to the underside (not optimal), coat it with photopositive (not optimal) or you can glue it to a piece of plastic card (not optimal either) with clear lacquer like the PE sets you get from the Rosemont Hobby Shop. I am still looking for a good method the Tesa film makes it hard to seperate the parts from the backing, I do not have the patience for coating the backside with photo positive and the plastic card is too stiff if the brass sheet is slightly curved. If I could I would use the same method as Rosemont does, glue the brass sheet to black plastic rubber sheet with clear lacquer. But I have not been able to find any of the elastic black plastic rubber sheet the guys at Rosemont use to back their PE sheets. When I do find a source for this material I will be a happy camper. KR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:43:09 -0400 From: Michael Fletcher To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Nieuport build Message-ID: <3D7E211D.973C93C4@rogers.com> The 17 was equipped standard with the 110 LeRhone. The 17bis is a different beast, having stringers along the fuselage. On a clean engine the face should present a bare steel appearance while the cylinders generally appear darker (probably shadows). The pipes leading to the heads are brilliant copper. A web search should turn up some colour shots. Mike Fl. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:50:39 -0400 From: Michael Fletcher To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Guynemer Nie.11 question Message-ID: <3D7E22DF.543F4E46@rogers.com> There is a lot of staining for a doped machine in that shot - it seems more consistant with a cdl aircraft, however maybe he just landed and hadn't had it cleaned yet. I have a shot of the other side in "Vie Heroique de Guynemer" showing the other side but it is too heavily retouched to be a good judge, however the undersides of the wing appear to be dark enough for the blue used on other N.11's. Time to practice my French. Mike Fl. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:52:57 -0500 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. Message-ID: There are other sources of German violet (the IWM, at least) in the form of souvenir fabric and/or aircraft components. Admittedly, these artifacts have aged and so perhaps have altered. British researchers (Paul Leaman? - can't recall) have used these to establish Methuen references. But a piece used to give the Methuen shade (25 F 8?- I'm at work and not positive) quoted in various Datafiles is very dark; far more so than the tones painted on the Hendon D.VII. FWIW; I am NOT trying to start something here, and have no opinion on the matter without further research on my part. Lance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:56:33 -0500 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: Datafile Scale Plans Message-ID: Diego reports on discrepancies between the Datafile and the Special for the D.II: "Some wires are missing from the newest version!" Gee, I hadn't gotten that far yet. But the shape has been largely corrected, and overall the outline is much closer to the fine exemplars put forward in WWIAero. Wheels are still too small, though. lance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:12:28 +0200 From: Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) To: Subject: Re:Dave Fleming -> Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers Message-ID: <001501c258ed$3e1481e0$6653fea9@kristjar> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: [WWI] Re: Photo etching the clumsy way Pt1, was - Pe/louvers > > You can get Photoetching kits in Electrical component shops (Maplins in the Uk > do one) for producing etched circuit boards. > > Problem was doing the negative, but the Photoshop onto transparency sounds > good !! Yes this method is good for rough to medium fine stuff which is about 60% of what I do, especially because it is so easy to make alot of copies, but I would recommend professional film for optimal reluts if you want to do ultra fine parts. If you do use this method you may have to print 2-3 copies of the part and lay them one on top of the other for optimal light blocking. Also it helps to photocopy the image onto the transparency so that the toner touches the surface of the brass sheet. If you do not do that there is a ca. 1/10th of a millimeter space between the toner on the surface of the transparency and the photopositive coat. This increases he "fuzzyness" of the edges of the etched part because light gets in there. Somebody also suggested printing onto special translucent paper which makes for sharper lines. One final use for the transparency is to do those "black dials" transparent sheets to sandwich between the Brass dashboard and a plastic card backing just like the ones that come with the Professional PE detail kits. Another thing to do in Photoshop! Only down side is that clear lacquer dissolves the copy toner. KR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:23:46 +0200 From: Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) To: Subject: Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. Message-ID: <003501c258ee$d26636d0$6653fea9@kristjar> Here is an idea! Why not just burn the Methuen books and the FS.595 color fans and paint all the kits in Orthocromatic gray scale. KR P.S. Has that Methuen book been re-issued? I have been looking for one for ages. Perhaps there is a FS.595 to Methuen table somewhere? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:44:04 -0400 From: Karen Rychlewski To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Gallipoli, OtF and seaplanes was Re: Re: Gotha seaplanes!!!! Message-ID: <3D7E3D73.89C1D334@earthlink.net> Kristjan Runarsson wrote: > > I will have to dig up the basic measurements of the WD.2 and compare it to > the WD.13 in my catalog. It will not be a spot on drawing but it should do. > Somebody told me that the article "Over the Wine Dark Sea" appeared in the > 1994 and 1996 volumes of OtF I always thought that the installment in Vol 9 > (1994) was all there was. Has anyone seen the latter part of the article in > OTF? I have the first installment in Vol 9 and am going to order Vol 11 from > the League if they ever get around to giving me a price quote. But I was > wondering if the Gothas are covered in the part I do not have? There was an article titled "The Application of Airpower in Allenby's Megiddo Campaign" in OtF Vol. 8, No. 1, which has the photo I will send you. A 'speed read' of the article found no mention of the WD.2. "Over the Wine Dark Sea" has three installments in Vol 9: No. 1="Aerial Aspects of the Dardanelles/Gallipoli Campaign"--all photos are of British planes and ships; No. 2="Aerial Aspects...Part Two, Operations of HMS Ben-My-Chree"--again, all British; No. 3="Aerial Aspects...Part III: Turco-German Aviation"; Vol.11, No. 2 has "Aerial Aspects...Part 4: The German Wasserfliegerabteilung"--has the same photo I'm sending of WD.2, plus a photo of a Turkish WD.13 and some info on Gotha activities; Vol. 11, No. 3 has "Aerial Aspects...Part Five, The Defense of the Bosphorus and the Fokker Staffel" > I wish somebody would do an index database of all the OtF Issues with > article captions and a short synopsis so one could go shopping for back > issues. But perhaps there is such a thing? OtF started publishing an index with Vol. 11. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:50:49 +0200 From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" To: Subject: Re: Datafile Scale Plans Message-ID: <018101c258fa$fb628000$0200a8c0@grzesiek> > I know of at least one Datafile drawing that is > actually based on a kit! It's a jungle out there ;) > Peter L WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:44:31 -0500 (CDT) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Pegase Message-ID: <200209101844.g8AIiVq26682@king1.kingsnake.com> Does anyone on the list have access to the magazine _Pegase_? It looks like it's the journal for Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace du Bourget. It looks like there's a whole bunch of on topic info in earlier issues. TIA! Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:08:45 +0200 From: Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) To: Subject: Re: Gallipoli, OtF and seaplanes was Re: Re: Gotha seaplanes!!!! Message-ID: <000701c258fd$7d09a730$6653fea9@kristjar> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Rychlewski" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: [WWI] Re: Gallipoli, OtF and seaplanes was Re: Re: Gotha seaplanes!!!! > > > Kristjan Runarsson wrote: > > > > > I will have to dig up the basic measurements of the WD.2 and compare it to > > the WD.13 in my catalog. It will not be a spot on drawing but it should do. > > Somebody told me that the article "Over the Wine Dark Sea" appeared in the > > 1994 and 1996 volumes of OtF I always thought that the installment in Vol 9 > > (1994) was all there was. Has anyone seen the latter part of the article in > > OTF? I have the first installment in Vol 9 and am going to order Vol 11 from > > the League if they ever get around to giving me a price quote. But I was > > wondering if the Gothas are covered in the part I do not have? > > There was an article titled "The Application of Airpower in Allenby's Megiddo > Campaign" in OtF Vol. 8, No. 1, which has the photo I will send you. A 'speed > read' of the article found no mention of the WD.2. "Over the Wine Dark Sea" has > three installments in Vol 9: No. 1="Aerial Aspects of the Dardanelles/Gallipoli > Campaign"--all photos are of British planes and ships; No. 2="Aerial > Aspects...Part Two, Operations of HMS Ben-My-Chree"--again, all British; No. > 3="Aerial Aspects...Part III: Turco-German Aviation"; Vol.11, No. 2 has "Aerial > Aspects...Part 4: The German Wasserfliegerabteilung"--has the same photo I'm > sending of WD.2, plus a photo of a Turkish WD.13 and some info on Gotha > activities; Vol. 11, No. 3 has "Aerial Aspects...Part Five, The Defense of the > Bosphorus and the Fokker Staffel" Thanks for the info, I will order Volume 11 as soon as the League gets around to answering its E-Mail. Looks like I missed the best part of that article. I found this by the way http://kedimaket.tripod.com/gothawd13/page_01.htm Cheers KR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:11:05 +0200 From: Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) To: Subject: Re: Datafile Scale Plans Message-ID: <000d01c258fd$cfc1a5e0$6653fea9@kristjar> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:51 PM Subject: [WWI] Re: Datafile Scale Plans > > I know of at least one Datafile drawing that is > actually based on a kit! It's a jungle out there ;) > Peter L Interesting input. Especially considering the draconian anti copyright clause on the Datafile drawings. I wonder how the Kit manufacturer feels about this? Purely Copyright-wise speaking. KR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:22:45 +0000 From: "Brent Theobald" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Now Motorcycle questions was/is Dicta Ira Survey Message-ID: Howdy! There is one model I saw in MMiR, whose name and manufacturer escape me right now. Both Italian if I remember correctly. I'll look it up tonight. Later! Brent _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:23:02 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: OTF indices Message-ID: <103168604201@smtp-1.vancouver.ipapp.com> >> I wish somebody would do an index database of all the OtF Issues with >> article captions and a short synopsis so one could go shopping for back >> issues. But perhaps there is such a thing? > > OtF started publishing an index with Vol. 11. > I created a database of all the articles in CCI, OTF and Windsock (as of about 3 years ago - I've gotten lazy since) with various fields for search. . this can be found on the http://www.crossandcockade.com site. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:31:47 -0400 From: Karen Rychlewski To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Now Motorcycle questions was/is Dicta Ira Survey Message-ID: <3D7E48A3.4BEF97D3@earthlink.net> Brent Theobald wrote: > There is one model I saw in MMiR, whose name and manufacturer escape me > right now. Both Italian if I remember correctly. > > I'll look it up tonight. Would greatly appreciate that Karen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:48:14 +0200 From: "Liefferinckx Frederic" To: Subject: RE: Gotha G.V engine housing's colour Message-ID: <001301c25903$0872a420$4c9d043e@d6o1v9> ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Crawford Neil" À : "Multiple recipients of list" Envoyé : mardi 10 septembre 2002 15:19 Objet : [WWI] RE: Gotha G.V engine housing's colour > Harry Woodman painted his grey-green on the back of the Gotha Special, > probably for a good reason. But this Brussels museum one looks very > grey (on my computer too) so I think I'd go for grey, it will also look > better. > /Neil C. > > Hi Neil, the Gotha engine nacelle are in a dark grey green, i have some pictures(but no scanner) and saturday i go to the museum i take some pictures and i send on the group.Regards Fred. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:48:21 -0400 From: Larry Marshall To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Datafile Scale Plans Message-ID: <200209101548.21114.larrym@sympatico.ca> > Compare the rigging with the Albatros D.II on the datafile with the rigging > on the Albatros D.II on the Special. Some wires are missing from the newest > version! I noticed that the other day. I don't have the D.II Datafile and so when I did my D.II (Oef) I followed the Special. The result is that the wires from the cabanes to the base of the bottom wing weren't on my model. I guess that's why the shelf fell. In any case, its resurrection is now fully rigged. Cheers --- Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:00:35 -0400 From: Larry Marshall To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. Message-ID: <200209101600.35867.larrym@sympatico.ca> > P.S. Has that Methuen book been re-issued? I hope someone answers yes to this :-) > I have been looking for one for > ages. Perhaps there is a FS.595 to Methuen table somewhere? I don't know if it's still available but "IPMS Color Cross-Reference Guide" by David Klaus contains a 595->Methuen table of a sort in that he takes a lot of the common color names and provides nearest 595a and Methuen numbers. Cheers --- Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:13:15 -0400 From: "Jamie Gagnon" To: Subject: Re: Albatros (read "German") Violet--a P.S. Message-ID: <001401c25906$7f7d7740$5aaa3041@ktgc.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Hi Kristjan or......paint them any colour you like but only take b/w photographs of the result, preferably with 90 year old film and a box camera. ;-) Jamie > Here is an idea! Why not just burn the Methuen books and the FS.595 color > fans and paint all the kits in Orthocromatic gray scale. > > KR > > P.S. Has that Methuen book been re-issued? I have been looking for one for > ages. Perhaps there is a FS.595 to Methuen table somewhere? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:19:29 -0500 From: "Mark Shannon" To: Subject: Methuen - FS595 Concordance Message-ID: Ian Huntley wrote a number of articles on WWII camouflage for Scale Aviation Modeler in the 1980's that included tables of FS 'equivalents' to Methuen and BS___(?) standard colors. Unfortunately, there are a lot of gaps and 'no equivalent color' entries in the tables. Two of the issues were Vol.6, No. 4 and Vol 6, No. 10. There are some oddities in the tables, too, such as one issue saying there is no match in FS595a for a given Methuen code and another issue giving a match. (5D4 in the earlier issue is given as 30219-30257, in the later issue, stated as no match) There is not a single reference that I have found on this. Care must also be taken with the equivalencies. Methuen was intended as a guide for field researchers to report colors in nature. The color chips are printed, not painted, and so vary during a run of an edition through the four color printing presses. FS 595 has its drawbacks as well. It was intended as a catalogue of standard shades for government services, but there are some strange relationships (for example, 15042 Glossy Sea Blue is different in tone to 35042 Non-Specular Sea Blue - the NS version is greener) because it was not the standard color that was the defining factor, it was the standard issue paint to the specification that became the standard to go with that color. I am not as familiar with the BS ___ system, except for hearing the names repeatedly. Finally, be aware that some of Mr. Huntley's tables are based on the specification equivalents rather than the color equivalents from the Lend-Lease days. In some cases the FS color given is only what was approved for use in meeting the British color using standard US paints. .Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:53:26 +0100 From: David Fleming To: Subject: Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance Message-ID: <1031691206.3d7e5bc68e747@netmail.pipex.net> Amit other wise advice, Mark, List Chemist supreme, wrote > Ian Huntley wrote a number of articles on WWII camouflage for Scale > Aviation Modeler Just a note - Scale Aircraft Modelling, rather than it's younger rival > > There is not a single reference that I have found on this. Care must > also be taken with the equivalencies. Methuen was intended as a guide > for field researchers to report colors in nature. The color chips are > printed, not painted, and so vary during a run of an edition through the > four color printing presses. It also varies between editions - I remember some correspondence in Windsock to this effect. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:24:35 +0200 From: Kristjan.Runarsson@t-online.de (Kristjan Runarsson) To: Subject: Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance Message-ID: <002101c25910$766bf2d0$6653fea9@kristjar> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fleming" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:55 PM Subject: [WWI] Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance > > Amit other wise advice, Mark, List Chemist supreme, > wrote > > Ian Huntley wrote a number of articles on WWII camouflage for Scale > > Aviation Modeler > > Just a note - Scale Aircraft Modelling, rather than it's younger rival > > > > > There is not a single reference that I have found on this. Care must > > also be taken with the equivalencies. Methuen was intended as a guide > > for field researchers to report colors in nature. The color chips are > > printed, not painted, and so vary during a run of an edition through the > > four color printing presses. > > It also varies between editions - I remember some correspondence in Windsock to > this effect. I wish that somebody could create a general consensus about replacing the Methuen book with something else. FS.595 is nice but a bit limited in scope. Perhaps we could use RAL or DIN standards in stead? It would have to be something relatively broad in scope, broader than FS.595 but inexpensive and easy to get. Say in the $/Euro 50-60 range? With all due respect to Methuen users those Methuen references are next to completely useless to anyone who entered the WWI modelling/historical research scene after, what, the mid 80's? when they stopped issuing the Methuen bible. KR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:18:52 -0400 From: Michael Fletcher To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Guynemer Nie.11 (N836) question Message-ID: <3D7E61BC.983B240@rogers.com> Thanks Matt, The picture at the top of p34 with a 12 in the background clearly shows the undersurface colour of this machine to be much darker than the CDL of the 12. a third shot is on p38 with it wrecked (with the Caudron G4 that destroyed it) showing dark wing tapes - however this was after it was extensively rebuilt so they may not have done it up the same. A second shot of it wrecked is on p105 which shows no fuselage tapes but does show wing tapes, and the colours again look darker than stock, and the lower surface of the wing is similar to the blue in the underwing roundel. The staining may not be an issue - the shot at the bottom of p104 shows even staining and no rib marks like on the 10, so it may have just been the paint picking up the oil easily, or Guynemer's mechanics not cleaning it properly. I disagree with their profile - the metal components look painted. I am going to have to change my Nieuport 10 N328 profile as well now - it looks like the lettering and the metal panels are blue as well, and maybe the top of the fusleage? Mike Fl. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:50:56 +0100 From: Dave Fleming To: Subject: Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance Message-ID: <1031694656.3d7e6940e8eb6@netmail.pipex.net> Quoting Kristjan Runarsson : > I wish that somebody could create a general consensus about replacing > the > Methuen book with something else. Isn't there an even more expensive colour standard ? Munsell ? > FS.595 is nice but a bit limited in > scope. > Perhaps we could use RAL or DIN standards in stead? It would have to be > something relatively broad in scope, broader than FS.595 but inexpensive > and > easy to get. Problem with all the standards ranges is that they tend to be limited - BS4800 is one of the better ones (a bit like the RAL standard IIRC) in that it's designed for commercial work (so that an architect can say "I want this painted BS4800 @*&^". It also has the advantage of being widely available in the UK at least as a trade chart (small chips, if you are lucky you can get one with actual paint chips, most are printed) although the standard itself is horrendously expensive. Several modern RAF colours began life as BS4800 shades. But it's generality is it's downfall, as it doesn't have all the subtle shade differences we would like. >Say in the $/Euro 50-60 range? With all due respect to > Methuen > users those Methuen references are next to completely useless to anyone > who > entered the WWI modelling/historical research scene after, what, the mid > 80's? when they stopped issuing the Methuen bible. > I agree with that, but the problem remains that you have to choose one standard. How about Pantone ? Or is it just a computer standard ? Although for WW1, maybe Dicta Ira applies - PC-10 could be many shades after all ! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:26:57 -0400 From: Larry Marshall To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance Message-ID: <200209101826.57122.larrym@sympatico.ca> > Problem with all the standards ranges is that they tend to be limited - Another problem is that like it or not, we've got a literature that's full or references to several standard, and colors that aren't standard at all (CDL?). > How about Pantone ? Or is it just a computer standard ? Pantone is a print standard and implemented only poorly (or not at all) on computers. It also suffers from the cost issue you mentioned for the BS4800 in that a Pantone color deck is very expensive. In the end, we'd still need to be able to translate 595, 595a,b, and Methuen colors to whatever standard were used. Possibly a small step in the right direction would be to build a chart that included the basic standards and associated them with country for WWI. Klaus did this for paints and 595 but his coverage of WWI is not very complete as 595 doesn't map as well across WWI as it does for WWII and modern colors. > Although for WW1, maybe Dicta Ira applies - PC-10 could be many shades > after all ! I think this will always be the case. Cheers --- Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:35:32 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Methuen - FS595 Concordance Message-ID: <103170101001@smtp-1.vancouver.ipapp.com> Get "Computer Color: 10,000 computer generated process colors" (No.37,000 on the Amazon.com best seller list). I cross referenced this book to 150 or so WWI colours in the Methuen range with a +- 5% error for each of the CMYK colours ... my current PC10 is 0, 10, 98, 83 which diplays nicely on my screen and printer in RGB mode . . we'll see how well it is handled by a commercial printer in the next CCI. Bob ---------- >From: Dave Fleming > I agree with that, but the problem remains that you have to choose one > standard. > > How about Pantone ? Or is it just a computer standard ? > > Although for WW1, maybe Dicta Ira applies - PC-10 could be many shades after > all ! > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:10:35 -0400 From: Dennis Ugulano To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: A question Message-ID: <200209102010_MC3-1-F94-296B@compuserve.com> If someone was looking for some information of a Nieuport 12 and he promised to build it in French colors, do you think anyone on this list could help him? If sure it will by just a MATTer of time before someone answers. :-) Dennis Dennis Ugulano email: Uggies@compuserve.com http://ronnieuggie.com/uggie/dju.htm Page Revised 08/10/2002 "Each modeler will rise to their own level of masochism." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:47:24 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: "wwi@wwi-models.org" Subject: Re: A question Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:14:17 -0400 (EDT), Dennis Ugulano wrote: > If someone was looking for some information of a Nieuport 12 and he > promised to build it in French colors, do you think anyone on this list > could help him? If sure it will by just a MATTer of time before someone > answers. :-) Did anyone hear something? Hmmm... Matt Bittner ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 4642 **********************