WWI Digest 4495 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Bristol M1c - rigging by "Pedro N. Soares" 2) RE: Bristol M1c by Crawford Neil 3) Bristol M1c by Tom Gourdie 4) Bristol M1c - Rigging by Tom Gourdie 5) RE: Bristol M1c - Rigging by Tom Gourdie 6) Re: Bristol M1c - rigging by "Mark Shannon" 7) RE: Bristol M1c - Rigging by Crawford Neil 8) Bristol M1c -Rigging by Tom Gourdie 9) Paints in OT times by "Mark Shannon" 10) RE: Paints in OT times by "Diego Fernetti" 11) Roden Gotha G.V by "Michael Kendix" 12) RE: Bristol M1c - rigging by john@huggins-leahey.com (John Huggins) 13) RE: Bristol M1c by "Diego Fernetti" 14) re: Roden Gotha G.V by "Grzegorz Mazurowski" 15) Re: Paints in OT Times part 1 by "Mark Shannon" 16) RE: Bristol M1c by Crawford Neil 17) re: Roden Gotha G.V by "Michael Kendix" 18) re: Roden Gotha G.V by "Michael Kendix" 19) Re: Paints in OT Times part 2 by "Mark Shannon" 20) RE: Roden Gotha G.V by Volker Haeusler 21) re: Roden Gotha G.V by Volker Haeusler 22) RE: Bristol M1c -Rigging by "Graham Hunter" 23) Re: Morane Saulnier type L & 80 HP LeRhone by "Lance Krieg" 24) re: Roden Gotha G.V by "Grzegorz Mazurowski" 25) re: Roden Gotha G.V by "Grzegorz Mazurowski" 26) Re: paints in OT times by "Hans Trauner" 27) Re: Bristol M1c - rigging by "Lance Krieg" 28) re: paints in OT times by "Hans Trauner" 29) Bristol M1c - Rigging by Tom Gourdie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:59:48 +0100 From: "Pedro N. Soares" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: RE: Bristol M1c - rigging Message-ID: <12AEB3D996DDD311B98A00508B6D75B301C5CCBE@TUFAO> > -----Original Message----- > From: Pedro N. Soares [mailto:pnsoares@naer.pt] > Sent: quarta-feira, 26 de Junho de 2002 12:58 > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [WWI] RE: Bristol M1c - rigging > > > Tom, > > You might consider using 2 single strands of monofilament for > the 4 wires Correction: 4 single strands of monofilament for the 8 wires, since the wires are double. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:11:09 +0200 From: Crawford Neil To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Bristol M1c Message-ID: D: #1 White decal: Measure the aft and front circumferences and > the distance > between them (the width of the band). Using your hard earned geometry > knowledge, draw the development of a truncated cone with the given > measurements. Cut a white decal curve with that pattern and > apply to the > model. You still will have some wrinkles due to the double > curvature of the > spinner, but maybe with decal softening solution all will be > fixed. If the > white band is translucent, add another on top of it. > I'd go for this one, but you can cheat by using straight decal, or not do a perfect curve, just a fairly good one. decal is much more flexible than people think. Make cuts where it wrinkles and slobber on plent of decal setter. Patch with tiny strips of decal where things go wrong. Alternatively use two parallell super thin strips, and paint white in between. /Neil C. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:11:55 +0100 From: Tom Gourdie To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Bristol M1c Message-ID: <02Jun26.131315bst.118096@ucas-firewall.ucas.ac.uk> Diego I wouldn't have been able to think that lot out about painting spinner circles! Unfortunately I was duff at Maths so I have very little hard-earned geometry knowledge. All the more grateful for your detailed advice since I genuinely wouldn't have been able to arrive at that solution on my own. Tom Tom Gourdie Regional Group Coordinator Outreach Department The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) Tel: 01242 544878 Fax: 01242 544954 E-mail: t.gourdie@ucas.ac.uk Website: http://www.ucas.com Registered Office: Rosehill, New Barn Lane, Cheltenham, Glos GL52 3LZ Registered Company Number: 2839815 Registered Charity Number: 1024741 This message is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately. You may not copy it or use this message for any purpose or disclose its contents to any other person or take any action based on them. E-Mails are susceptible to interference. UCAS accepts no responsibility for information, errors or omissions in this e-mail nor for its use or misuse nor for any act committed or omitted in connection with this communication. If in doubt, please verify the authenticity of the contents with the sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:19:26 +0100 From: Tom Gourdie To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Bristol M1c - Rigging Message-ID: <02Jun26.132044bst.118145@ucas-firewall.ucas.ac.uk> Thanks Pedro The only problem is that the attachment points for the landing and flying wires on the M1c are located at different points on the top and bottom of the wing. I don't have details with me but at present but as I recollect the upper attachment points are about 5 cm further outboard (in 1/48) than the underwing points (or it might be the other way round). I did what you suggested with my Flashback Fokker EIII and it worked very well but only because the anchorage points were in the same place top and bottom. Tom Tom Gourdie Regional Group Coordinator Outreach Department The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) Tel: 01242 544878 Fax: 01242 544954 E-mail: t.gourdie@ucas.ac.uk Website: http://www.ucas.com Registered Office: Rosehill, New Barn Lane, Cheltenham, Glos GL52 3LZ Registered Company Number: 2839815 Registered Charity Number: 1024741 This message is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately. You may not copy it or use this message for any purpose or disclose its contents to any other person or take any action based on them. E-Mails are susceptible to interference. UCAS accepts no responsibility for information, errors or omissions in this e-mail nor for its use or misuse nor for any act committed or omitted in connection with this communication. If in doubt, please verify the authenticity of the contents with the sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:39:43 +0100 From: Tom Gourdie To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Bristol M1c - Rigging Message-ID: <02Jun26.134100bst.118125@ucas-firewall.ucas.ac.uk> For 5cm please read 5mm (and the difference is probably not even that great)!! Told you I was duff with figures! Tom -----Original Message----- From: Tom Gourdie [mailto:T.Gourdie@ucas.ac.uk] Sent: 26 June 2002 13:22 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [WWI] Bristol M1c - Rigging Thanks Pedro The only problem is that the attachment points for the landing and flying wires on the M1c are located at different points on the top and bottom of the wing. I don't have details with me but at present but as I recollect the upper attachment points are about 5 cm further outboard (in 1/48) than the underwing points (or it might be the other way round). I did what you suggested with my Flashback Fokker EIII and it worked very well but only because the anchorage points were in the same place top and bottom. Tom Tom Gourdie Regional Group Coordinator Outreach Department The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) Tel: 01242 544878 Fax: 01242 544954 E-mail: t.gourdie@ucas.ac.uk Website: http://www.ucas.com Registered Office: Rosehill, New Barn Lane, Cheltenham, Glos GL52 3LZ Registered Company Number: 2839815 Registered Charity Number: 1024741 This message is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately. You may not copy it or use this message for any purpose or disclose its contents to any other person or take any action based on them. E-Mails are susceptible to interference. UCAS accepts no responsibility for information, errors or omissions in this e-mail nor for its use or misuse nor for any act committed or omitted in connection with this communication. If in doubt, please verify the authenticity of the contents with the sender. This message is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately. You may not copy it or use this message for any purpose or disclose its contents to any other person or take any action based on them. E-Mails are susceptible to interference. UCAS accepts no responsibility for information, errors or omissions in this e-mail nor for its use or misuse nor for any act committed or omitted in connection with this communication. If in doubt, please verify the authenticity of the contents with the sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:52:33 -0500 From: "Mark Shannon" To: Subject: Re: Bristol M1c - rigging Message-ID: I think this might be the perfect place for the semi-patented wire eyebolt method. Make a small eyebolt out of fuse wire or beading wire by wrapping it around a needle and twisting it off. if you wish something a little wider, pass a second wrap around the needle before twisting off, but I would go to a heavier gauge wire before trying to widen by a third pass. At each anchor point, you will need to do a double drilling for the eyebolt. First, you will need to drill deep enough for the 'bolt' (the twisted shank portion) to form an anchor for the eyebolt, then a countersink portion for the eye so that it mostly disappears. Using a dab of gap filling superglue and some sacrificial monofilament, you can glue your eyebolt in place and fair it in, then pull the sacrificial piece(s) of thread out leaving the eye open. When you rig, at one end, you simply pass the mono through the eye and back toward the other anchor point, but at the 'base' anchor point, you can pull the two thread ends through from each direction, put the tension on them, tie them off, glue them off, etc. The width of the eyebolt wire forms the uniform separation of the double wire without any shakiness of your hands, jigs, whatever. Obviously, this takes just a bit of pre-planning, and could be a bit of a problem for the vacu-formed wings, but on Blue Max or Eduard, or just about and injection molded model where there is a bit of depth and structure to the parts, it works. Our thanks to Hiro, a previous list member, for the original suggestions. .Mark. Tom asked: >I'm shortly going to start the Blue Max Bristol and am looking for advice on >the flying wires. These wires are doubled and run from the bottom of the >fuselage up to raised panels on the under side of the wings. >I plan to use monofilament but I usually have some way of tensioning the >monofilament. However, the Bristol layout has me stumped since the wires >are anchored in a solid structure at both ends. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:55:31 +0200 From: Crawford Neil To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Bristol M1c - Rigging Message-ID: > > For 5cm please read 5mm (and the difference is probably not even that > great)!! > > Told you I was duff with figures! > > Tom Still enough to screw up the monofilament rigging though, I suppose you might be able to drill an angled hole that comes out the other side of the wing 5mm away. It would be fun trying! /Neil C. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:04:58 +0100 From: Tom Gourdie To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Bristol M1c -Rigging Message-ID: <02Jun26.140615bst.118122@ucas-firewall.ucas.ac.uk> Mark Thanks for another piece of original thinking! This idea wouldn't have even crossed my mind. Perhaps I should do a mixed media rigging exercise on the Bristol - all the ideas seem to be very feasible! Tom Tom Gourdie Regional Group Coordinator Outreach Department The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) Tel: 01242 544878 Fax: 01242 544954 E-mail: t.gourdie@ucas.ac.uk Website: http://www.ucas.com Registered Office: Rosehill, New Barn Lane, Cheltenham, Glos GL52 3LZ Registered Company Number: 2839815 Registered Charity Number: 1024741 This message is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately. You may not copy it or use this message for any purpose or disclose its contents to any other person or take any action based on them. E-Mails are susceptible to interference. UCAS accepts no responsibility for information, errors or omissions in this e-mail nor for its use or misuse nor for any act committed or omitted in connection with this communication. If in doubt, please verify the authenticity of the contents with the sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:12:15 -0500 From: "Mark Shannon" To: Subject: Paints in OT times Message-ID: Diego wrote: >Even today, when the mixing and processes of paints are even more accurate >than 85 years before, it's likely that you'll find differences amongst for >instance Humbrol 055 from different batches. To which I say, 'Amen, brother! Preach it to the masses!' I have worked for much of my adult life in process development, and the idea of 'specification range' and 'statistical variation' is foreign to many managers of the company, let alone customers. I have had to patiently explain the idea of why there will always be some real, no-zero probability of reject product, no matter how careful the operators and shift supervisors, or robots, or vendors, to corporate people who are making many times the amount of money I ever will in my life every year. Even so, I sometime get caught with it myself. My snake-bit Albatrii recently fell prey to just what Diego said, only the color was Humbrol 03 Brunswick Green, which I was using out of the bottle for Dark Green. My old tin had gone the way of all flesh, as might be expected when a set of kits takes two years to slowly assemble, and the new tin was used for some touch-up. Three days later, I noticed that all three Albatrosen had bluish highlight stripes in their dark green - the very slight difference in tone between the two lots of Humbrol 03. .Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:50:10 -0300 From: "Diego Fernetti" To: "ww1 list" Subject: RE: Paints in OT times Message-ID: <000701c21d18$63ed1e60$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Mark! > Even so, I sometime get caught with it myself. My snake-bit Albatrii recently fell prey to just what Diego said, only the color was Humbrol 03 Brunswick Green, which I was using out of the bottle for Dark Green. My old tin had gone the way of all flesh, as might be expected when a set of kits takes two years to slowly assemble, and the new tin was used for some touch-up. Three days later, I noticed that all three Albatrosen had bluish highlight stripes in their dark green - the very slight difference in tone between the two lots of Humbrol 03. Don't be afraid of the Colour Police! Slight unevenness on the painted surfaces is to me a boon in realism. Remember Hustad's model where this effect was sought after with different shades? There's even a step beyond the "patchy" paintwork: that's what Robert Karr did on his Albatros D.I, reproducing the wavy surfaces of the plywood panels of the fuselage sides. A perfectly smooth finish in a model is not realistic! The skill is on restraining the details so they are not obvious, but adequate to scale. D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:51:50 +0000 From: "Michael Kendix" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: Has anyone seen a review of the Roden Gotha G.V? I looked on Internet Modeler and there was none as far as I can see. Would someone please comment on the decals that come with the kit. I assume there are no rib tapes on this thing? Michael _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:57:38 -0500 From: john@huggins-leahey.com (John Huggins) To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: RE: Bristol M1c - rigging Message-ID: Why not do it the way it was done on the real thing. Drill a series of #80 holes. Insert I rings in the holes. Tie mono to one ring, run it to the other and tie it off there. Functional rigging. No sagging runs, you can add turnbuckles or use white glue or other material to simulate them. The I rings can be made from the suture wire twisted around a #80 drill bit. The turnbuckles can come from places like PART or the local railroad shop, or just drops of white glue that have been painted brass when dry. Invisible thread works very well, is easy to tie, and can be heat shrink it. JP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:03:51 -0300 From: "Diego Fernetti" To: Subject: RE: Bristol M1c Message-ID: <003301c21d1a$4d07b0a0$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Tom! Neil's advice, as always, makes much more sense than mine and it's a lot simpler. Put two thin decal stripes to define the boundaries of the white spinner portion and fill inside with white paint, preferably acrilic as enamel may damage the decals. Coat with varnish or future to even out the results. A lot less work than my wacky methods! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Gourdie > Diego > I wouldn't have been able to think that lot out about painting spinner > circles! > Unfortunately I was duff at Maths so I have very little hard-earned geometry > knowledge. All the more grateful for your detailed advice since I genuinely > wouldn't have been able to arrive at that solution on my own. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:02:26 +0200 From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" To: Subject: re: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: <016f01c21d1a$1a9012c0$0200a8c0@grzesiek> > Has anyone seen a review of the Roden Gotha G.V? I looked on Internet > Modeler and there was none as far as I can see. > > Would someone please comment on the decals that come with the kit. I assume > there are no rib tapes on this thing? http://www.rodenplant.com/HTML/016.htm No rib tapes. And night lozenge a little to light, but in reality darker than on the scan. G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:05:04 -0500 From: "Mark Shannon" To: Subject: Re: Paints in OT Times part 1 Message-ID: Diego also wrote: >Grzes >I can't say for sure, but pigments were found in nature and many were >made from minerals: Iron oxides or cadmium for reds, cobalt or copper >oxides for blues, sulphuric mixes for yellow and such... Many were highly >poisonous. Still are - both made from minerals and highly poisonous. They just don't show up in house paints and on toys like they used to. I don't have my paints chemistry book here, so I don't have all the details, but typically olive greens were made from ochers - iron oxide clays and earths, with black with possibly verdigris - copper oxide/sulfide/acetate salts. Bright yellows were often lead (lithopone - lead sulfide/sulfate) or cadmium based, possibly chromate based, as in the reddish-orange chrome yellows or the yellow-green zinc chromate. Lead yellows were in the 'primrose yellow' range, cadmium in the 'true (sunshine) yellow'. Bright reds were typically from iron oxides, vermillion (mercuric sulfide), or cadmium-barium sulfates. Iron reds tended toward the 'barn reds', and would go rusty as they weathered, for some odd reason. Whites were typically zinc oxide (which was the relatively new one), litharge (lead oxide), or bone and chalk based. Titanium white was unheard of, if I remember correctly, so all whites would have a yellowish tinge to them. Blacks were typically selenium (rare), charcoal, lampblack, burnt bone, or other carbon/soot/char based. Ivory black was an expensive, but popular tint, made from charred ivory - it gave a nice satin black with a depth to the color - similar to a pearlescent paint today but to a lesser extent. .. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:12:19 +0200 From: Crawford Neil To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Bristol M1c Message-ID: Even so I wouldn't do it this way myself, I'd use your method! Trying to cut a good a spiral as possible in decal would probably give the best result, though because my maths are shot, I'd just use guesswork. /Neil C. > Tom! > Neil's advice, as always, makes much more sense than mine and > it's a lot > simpler. Put two thin decal stripes to define the boundaries > of the white > spinner portion and fill inside with white paint, preferably > acrilic as > enamel may damage the decals. Coat with varnish or future to > even out the > results. A lot less work than my wacky methods! > D. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:19:22 +0000 From: "Michael Kendix" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: re: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: >From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" >http://www.rodenplant.com/HTML/016.htm > >No rib tapes. And night lozenge a little to light, but in reality >darker >than on the scan. I understand. The kit decals are different from Bob Wheeler's effort: http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Wheeler/German/index.html and Dave Burke's: http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Burke/GothaVb/index.html I gather there were different types of lozenge used, no? Michael _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:19:04 +0000 From: "Michael Kendix" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: re: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: >From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" >http://www.rodenplant.com/HTML/016.htm > >No rib tapes. And night lozenge a little to light, but in reality >darker >than on the scan. I understand. The kit decals are different from Bob Wheeler's effort: http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Wheeler/German/index.html and Dave Burke's: http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Burke/GothaVb/index.html I gather there were different types of lozenge used, no? Michael _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:24:55 -0500 From: "Mark Shannon" To: Subject: Re: Paints in OT Times part 2 Message-ID: Diego also wrote: >Grzes >I can't say for sure, but pigments were found in nature and many were >made from minerals: Iron oxides or cadmium for reds, cobalt or copper >oxides for blues, sulphuric mixes for yellow and such... Many were highly >poisonous. Still are - both made from minerals and highly poisonous. They just don't show up in house paints and on toys like they used to. Most greens were based on verdigris, terre verte (literally green earth, a coppery soil, but I cannot remember the locale - probably northern Italy, originally), serpentine (the same mineral as asbestos, only a little harder than talc, so it grinds easily and polishes nicely), and malachite (copper carbonate) - Brunswick Green is copper oxychloride. Blue pigment were things like Prussian Blue - Ferrous ammonium ferricyanide, and yes that is cyanide which is fine as long as you don't go playing too hard with the pigment - ultramarine, which was a new one for synthesis, but the best was true French Ultramarine, made from ground gemstone Lapis Lazuli (lazurite). Neither of those particularly liked acidic conditions. Prussian Blue is greenish and tends toward 'bronzing' - getting a coppery haze to the color. Ultramarine is purplish, which becomes more and more prominent as it is lightened - it probably got used in the lilac/mauve. The last class of pigments were the 'lakes'. These were what you got from processes that were something like boiling a dye with chalk - the chalk became infused with the pigment of the dye. The colors could be very vivid and weren't washed out, as you might think, but they might not be as good at covering power. The process was very old, originally done with natural pigment sources like mallow root or the Phoenician snails for Royal Purple, but had gained a new life with the German chemical and dye industry in the thirty years before WWI. Anyway, there were a lot of new pigments introduced since then - many of these are still with us, however. Most of the ones that aren't are because of the toxicity of their manufacture and lack of incentive for specific need - Vermillion isn't needed for a red, anymore, and Red Lead isn't needed as a primer, with modern epoxy coatings and alloys, but zinc chromate is still a primer of choice for certain applications. And, Diego - Yeah, I know about the patchwork look - unfortunately, the lines in contrasting tones of Humbrol 03 were in places where it was obvious what I had been doing and difficult to tie back into the rest of the paint job, but I did it. It is also only noticeable under certain light at certain angles. But I know it is there.... .Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:46:09 +0800 From: Volker Haeusler To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: RE: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: Michael > Has anyone seen a review of the Roden Gotha G.V? I looked on Internet > Modeler and there was none as far as I can see. > > Would someone please comment on the decals that come with the > kit. I assume > there are no rib tapes on this thing? > > First the kit: I just got mine a week or so ago from Earl at NKR (this time even Malysian customs could not delay the delivery, which was within 5 days of order). The kit is *exactly* the same as the G IV, only you use some of those parts not needed for the G IV. So the difference is the decals: Three aircraft, G V 904/17, 906/17 and 947/17. 906 is in "air superiotiy blue", zthe others are in (in the original hand-painted!) lozenge. You get a smallsheet with crosses nd individual codes and markings, and a HUGE sheet (bigger than A 4) with that lozenge. To me it looks reasonable - the size and structure of the lozenges looks good, especially when compared to the EIGHT photos of 904/17 on p 40/41 of the WS "Gotha!". Yes, no rib tapes - there should not be any, as the aircraft was handpainted (even over the wooden surfaces) after the fabric was on - there is one photo in Gotha! showing it without camo. All in all - Roden seems to be improving with every kit (with some reservations on the layout of those Alb D I/II/III wings). Great choice of subjects - the two camouflaged G V´s are those from plates K and L from Gotha! Michael, you also asked for that book. In two words: Get it! Drawings of the G II, III, IV, V , Va and Vb. Around 90 photos, superb details about the camouflage, mainly from Dr. Merrill, who is an aknowledged expert on Gothas. Volker (who just retrieved Fokker D VII Anthology 3 from the post - now THAT is one hell of a book! Have to get more Roden D VII´s...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:51:39 +0800 From: Volker Haeusler To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: re: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: Grzegorz, Michael > >No rib tapes. And night lozenge a little to light, but in > reality >darker > >than on the scan. > > I gather there were different types of lozenge used, no? > As just said: they show HAND PAINTED lozenge. I´m personally a fan of "scale effects", and I think under a coat of two of gloss and satin finish the decals will not look to far of. No idea about the accuracy of the colors, but I think the effect should be ok. Especially when looking on photos 51 and 52 of Gotha! (both showing G V 904/17 "Erika", the lozenges don´t look that dark either. And who will claim knowledge about the colors of THAT specific, hand painted Gotha? IMHO etc Volker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:34:42 -0500 From: "Graham Hunter" To: Subject: RE: Bristol M1c -Rigging Message-ID: <000201c21d1e$9d1dde80$770101c0@ghunter> Tom, When I did my Spin M1c I used monofilament for both flying and landing wires. REMEMBER that the gap in the double wires are tapered. They start out closer together at the fuselage mount and widen at the outer mount. What I did to secure the attachment points was: 1. Drill into the fuselage at the appropriate spots. 2. Drill holes through the rigging "domes" on the wings (now the BM kit may differ here, but the Spin kit had these "domes" moulded into the wings) almost flush with the surface of the wing. I used a #79 bit and chucked it so that it could flex (in order to get the odd angle). For the double wires I angled the holes in each "dome" so that there was only one exit hole. -- / /\ \ \//\\/ Something like this crude drawing. -- 3. When it is time to rig the wings I CA'd the momofilament in the holes in the fuselage. 4. Then running the wire thru the "domes" I pulled it tight and CA'd it. 5. Trim excess mono and touch up with paint or CA or whatever. Another possible solution would be to remove the moulded "domes" and scratch your own "domes". Then for the double wires make slots with a fine saw in the flat side of the "dome" for the rigging to fit into. Graham ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:32:24 -0500 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: Morane Saulnier type L & 80 HP LeRhone Message-ID: Sanjeev is examining the cowl structure, and concludes: "...the cowl did not have a rear wall." I looked at the Datafile (not a very good one, is it?), as well as the one on the Pfalz monoplanes. It looks to me that there IS a rear wall that connects to the cowl cheek pieces, but that it only goes half way down. Therefore, the bottom half of the engine would be visible from behind the cowl. This hypothesis is supported by some of the pictures that appear to show oil staining on the fuselage sides, beginning where the wall stops. I also did a brief survey of 80 HP LeRhones, and concluded that the Albatros Spare Parts catalog is the best; it's for the 80 HP version, and has detail drawings of every component from the throttle quadrant to the prop boss. This, coupled with some of the cutaways found in the early Nieuport Datafiles, should enable someone of your skills to build a very complete replica. Lance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:35:30 +0200 From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" To: Subject: re: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: <01ab01c21d1e$b8c46be0$0200a8c0@grzesiek> > I understand. The kit decals are different from Bob Wheeler's effort: > > http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Wheeler/German/index.html Yes, as it is rather Gotha G.IV. > and Dave Burke's: > http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Burke/GothaVb/index.html This type of lozenge is depicted in the Roden kit and as I wrote, Roden version is said to be a little to light. Dave's looks properly dark, but IMHO Roden one is acceptable too, as it looks really darker and more bluish than on Roden's webpage scan. I've seen it, when I've bought this kit for Hans Trauner. > I gather there were different types of lozenge used, no? More, I think. Also Austrians had their own Gothas. Cheers! Grzegorz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:44:38 +0200 From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" To: Subject: re: Roden Gotha G.V Message-ID: <01db01c21d1f$ff9769e0$0200a8c0@grzesiek> > > >No rib tapes. And night lozenge a little to light, but in > > reality >darker > > >than on the scan. Volker, Michael! I mean that on Roden's website decals looks generally worse than they really are, maybe because of scanning, compression or simply my monitor setings. I like G.V Roden's lozenge. G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:54:04 +0200 From: "Hans Trauner" To: Subject: Re: paints in OT times Message-ID: <008b01c21d21$50f5af80$daab72d4@FRITZweb> German paints were standardised in one way or other. RAL was not a standard yet, but the army colours of Feldgrau, Ocker, Rotbraun, Dunkelgrün and Schwarz looked surprisingly identical on different objects. F.e. in the german WWI museum in Ingolstadt you can compare several feldgrau (fieldgrey) objects like guns or helmets. Even camouflaged objects are comparable. But regrettably I was not able to find any receipes. The famous Fokker receipt for the Fokker D VIII wing, also found in the Datafile, leads to nothing. We have tried, but failed. The pigments followed standards, and every pigment had his name, which exactly made the colour. Compare that with artist's oil paints. Brunswick green is Brunswick green and Alazarin madder is Alazarin madder. Only if you buy paints not named after the pigments you have significant differences between the makes. As already told elsewhere, a friend of mine is producing paints. He has the complete RLM range ( original receipt, including original binder and thinner!) and would be heavily interested in WWI paints, but, alas, no receipts... Hans ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:51:53 -0500 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: Bristol M1c - rigging Message-ID: Tom ruminates about: "...monofilament through the top to allow me to tension them since I'm bothered that I'll damage the top surface of the wing on a way that I cannot conceal." I'm a confirmed monofilament rigger, especially for long runs like those on the Bristol. Personally, I believe the easiest way is to hole the wings and repair the damage, but if that is problematic one could approach the problem thusly: 1. Anchor the monofilament in the wings at the appropriate points by drilling half-way through and using CA. I would drill these half-through holes as close as possible to the correct angle of the rigging run. 2. Cement eyebolts for the lower fuselage attachment points, and use brass for the rigging pylon on the top of the fuslage. I would file a small notch in the pylon top to trap and help position the rigging lines. 3. Stretch the runs from the wings to the fuselage, holding them taut across the pylon or through the eyeboplt while I CAed them in situ. 4. Trim the excess. This is not as convenient as having one long run stretching over the pylon, but it eliminates the need to repair the wings; a modified version of the approach would use one run on the top, and have holes to repair only on the undersides of the wings. I look forward to seeing the result. Lance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:00:15 +0200 From: "Hans Trauner" To: Subject: re: paints in OT times Message-ID: <00af01c21d22$2e4d32e0$daab72d4@FRITZweb> Remember that coloured dopes were used on fabric surfaces and enamels > on metal or wood. Dopes did not flake as easily, but I guess that enamels > covered best. According to my friend, the paint maker, Germany did not used coloured dopes. It was not possible to tint dope exactly and not all pigments worked. Mix Zapponlack with pigments and it will smear. No binder! They have to use enamels / or oil based paints. Binders were organic and therefore on short supply. So they invented Tarnstoff, aka Lozenge. Hans ( the list chemist will lough about my statement, but that's what I understand from my friend...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:57:35 +0100 From: Tom Gourdie To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Bristol M1c - Rigging Message-ID: <02Jun26.155854bst.118147@ucas-firewall.ucas.ac.uk> Graham Thanks for that extensive description. The only problem I have is that the domes/attachment points are very-well moulded on the Blue Max version with quite delicate detail which would be lost if I removed them and rebuilt from scratch. The idea involving the #79 drill appeals to me more although any time I have flexed a fine drill it has usually snapped! I would still prefer to use monofilament simply because that is my preferred material for rigging but I will sit down and look at the wing in closer detail and see which method suggested by yourself, Neil, Diego and Pedro is most suitable for this particular task. I am now leaning towards stainless steel wire of sufficient gauge for rigidity but not out of scale (or not too much out of scale)but I will think carefully about this before committing myself. The help you get from this list still amazes me...! All the best Tom Tom Gourdie Regional Group Coordinator Outreach Department The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) Tel: 01242 544878 Fax: 01242 544954 E-mail: t.gourdie@ucas.ac.uk Website: http://www.ucas.com Registered Office: Rosehill, New Barn Lane, Cheltenham, Glos GL52 3LZ Registered Company Number: 2839815 Registered Charity Number: 1024741 This message is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately. 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