WWI Digest 4100 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) French Sopwiths by "bruce simard" 2) Re: Re Nigel's Mortars by "Lee M." 3) Re: French Sopwiths by tbittners@sprintmail.com 4) Re: goodies in the mail by tbittners@sprintmail.com 5) Re: Mortar shells by "Lee M." 6) Re: One of the things I dislike about Spads by "Lance Krieg" 7) Re: Butterfly by "Lance Krieg" 8) Re: Butterfly by xtv16@dial.pipex.com 9) Re: Butterfly by tbittners@sprintmail.com 10) R: Re: Baracca's horse by a.casirati@cornali-trasporti.it 11) Re: WW1 Model Gallery by PetersList@aol.com 12) Request from Mexico by "" 13) Re: VAMP Site by Lubos.Vinar@deltax.cz 14) RE: Request from Mexico by "Marcio Antonio Campos" 15) N.11/17 instruments?? by "robert owens" 16) Paint and dope weights by "Grzegorz Mazurowski" 17) quick Hanriot 5 color camo question by Myles Miller 18) Re: N.11/17 instruments?? by "Lance Krieg" 19) RE: quick Hanriot 5 color camo question by "Tomasz Gronczewski" 20) RE: quick Hanriot 5 color camo question by tbittners@sprintmail.com 21) French "beige" by tbittners@sprintmail.com 22) French black by tbittners@sprintmail.com 23) RE: French black by "Tomasz Gronczewski" 24) Re: French "beige" by Mark Miller 25) Re: Nigels mortars: by "Lee M." 26) RE: French "beige" by "Tomasz Gronczewski" 27) Hobbyshop.cz Shipping Costs by Todd Hayes 28) Re: control surface positioning by "Michael and Sharon Alvarado, NSWCC" 29) RE: WW1 Model Gallery by Shane Weier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:04:30 -0500 From: "bruce simard" To: "WWI List" Subject: French Sopwiths Message-ID: <001001c1a41f$42edb2a0$763aaf3f@22by501> List, I've recently been working on Toko's Sopwith Strutter, which will be in French markings. During research for the ordinance carried, I came across an interesting question. Granted, Toko provides us with an external bomb rack, which I have found no evidence of this being used,( by the French anyway ). Research has shown several photos of the "bomb bay" of the single seat bomber (1 B1). There is a great shot in the Datafile of a crashed RNAS example on page 5 , showing the external appearance of the bomb doors. But I can find no evidence of a 2 seater carrying bombs ? The French classified the Sopwith 1A1 as a 2 seat observation ship. The 1B2 apparently was assigned to Bomb Groups as escort fighters for the single seaters. Has anyone ever found any photos of 2 seaters carrying bombs, external or internal ? I've used the Datafile and FMP's "French Aircraft of WWI" as my main reference sources, plus the History of the 90th USAS squadron by Carver. Since the French produced over 4000 Sopwiths, its interesting so little has come to light or print about their use, or am I just missing something big ? Any thoughts ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:04:40 -0600 From: "Lee M." To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Re Nigel's Mortars Message-ID: <3C4ED108.83751DD8@x25.net> Thank you I will check that site. I have never been a real artillery "hound" but I have read a good bit about it. I always considered Mortars as part of that field so it has been a bit neglected. The only one that really attracted my attention was the 88 and I learned more about that than I wanted or ever needed to know. When they will fire an artillery round at one guy they are just oozing confidence. I always wished them bad luck. Lee M. Neil Eddy wrote: > > Hi all > > Here's some info on WWI mortars: > > French 58T Trench Mortar > > projectile weight 35lb (13.2lb explosive) > Elevation: 45 - 80 degrees > Initial velocity 220 feet per second > > 25cm Minenwerfer Model 1912 > > Shell 207.2lbs (weight of charge 103lbs > Rate of fire 20 rounds per hour > Range 215-601 yards > > I couldnt find the other stuff I had - however have a look at this site: > http://www.riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/mortar/ndx.htm > > which has good info on the Stokes, minenwerfer varieties, French mortars > etc. > > HTH > > All the Best > > Neil E > (evening lurk) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:10:28 -0500 (EST) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: French Sopwiths Message-ID: <20020123151028.7DDC0467CE@eclipse.qis.net> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:02:57 -0500 (EST), bruce simard wrote: > I've recently been working on Toko's Sopwith Strutter, which will be in > French markings. During research for the ordinance carried, I came across an > interesting question. Granted, Toko provides us with an external bomb rack, > which I have found no evidence of this being used,( by the French anyway ). > Research has shown several photos of the "bomb bay" of the single seat > bomber (1 B1). There is a great shot in the Datafile of a crashed RNAS > example on page 5 , showing the external appearance of the bomb doors. But I > can find no evidence of a 2 seater carrying bombs ? The French classified > the Sopwith 1A1 as a 2 seat observation ship. The 1B2 apparently was > assigned to Bomb Groups as escort fighters for the single seaters. Has > anyone ever found any photos of 2 seaters carrying bombs, external or > internal ? I've used the Datafile and FMP's "French Aircraft of WWI" as my > main reference sources, plus the History of the 90th USAS squadron by > Carver. Since the French produced over 4000 Sopwiths, its interesting so > little has come to light or print about their use, or am I just missing > something big ? Any thoughts ? He's come across the same problems I did when I built my Flashback kit. Unfortunately there is hardly *any* documentation on the French Strutters. There are two Datafiles on the Strutters, and both contain very little (*very* little) on French use of the type. I also find it odd since the French built more Strutters than the British did. Maybe - one of these days - there will be some more interested in WW1 aviation in France proper. Then we may get more info on French types. Pedro, or anybody - has Avions ever covered the French Strutters? Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:28:26 -0500 (EST) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: goodies in the mail Message-ID: <20020123152826.66C35467CE@eclipse.qis.net> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:57:52 -0500 (EST), Diego Fernetti wrote: > Also, a friend sent me two Roseplane resins, nieuport 24 and Nieuport 27.... > they're vitually the same, except that the 27 has aeroclub metal parts too > (and the wrong type of rudder!). > How accurate are they? The fuselages are mostly solid and the wings are a > bit clumsy.... what's your opinion on this Matt, Mike? Yes, they're clumsy. However, minus the rear, fuselage undersides, they're relatively accurate (oh, and the rudder ;-)). Personally I feel they're better starts than the HR kit. Between the old Rosemont kits and the Luedemann Nie.24, it's really a toss up. Either you finese the Rosemont kit, or you correct the multitude of molding problems with the Luedemann. Both, unfortunately, have very small cockpit openings (although the Rosemont is a better start, in that regard). The Luedemann being the smaller of the two. If money is no object, then from what I can tell from scans, it appears that the Choroszy Nieuports will be the better bet. Plus don't forget about the Omega Nie.21. It too is a great start. Matt Bittner Nieuport-a-holic ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:35:28 -0600 From: "Lee M." To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Mortar shells Message-ID: <3C4ED840.CCBFA47E@x25.net> Most of the mortar shells did not go far up, lose all the speed and then fall to earth. They were sent at an angle and did not lose as much initial velocity as they would at a very steep angle at launch time. So the shells were going fast and accelerated further on the down slope run. Probably not a lot. As you said "Conservation of energy". I also forgot about acceleration = deceleration in free flight up or just falling down. Old age catches up with me on occassion. (Not like an artillery shell that goes fast and straight. Slowing because of friction and dropping because of gravity.) The tubes were usually about 50 to 70 degrees or so and ocassionally as low as 40 and once, I know of, at 89-90 degrees. The little 60mm's were shot more vertically than the large ones since they were used in a more "close support role" and intended for near hits. They were distributed around all Rifle companies and not considered a "Heavy Weapon". I have had them 15-20 yards behind me and the impact was 80 to 100 yards ahead of me. I can not correctly recall but I believe there were about 4 per platoon. (Four rifle Squads and one weapons unit. There was perhaps 1 or 2 bazooka per platoon but I was always with Heavy Weapons so I am not sure. You are totally correct at straight up and straight down It does equalize arriving at virtually "Zero net gain". "ZELNICK, KENNETH T" wrote: > > Greetings all, > > Sorry for the late post, but I'm in digest mode. > > Lee wrote concerning mortar shells: > > > They can arrive at ground level going a good deal faster than > they went up. > > Lee, I respectfully disagree with you on this point. In an ideal system > with no losses, and assuming the impact point is at the same elevation as > the launch point, the impact velocity should be the same as the muzzle > velocity. To be otherwise would violate conservation of energy, or > momentum, or something like that. > > Just trying to recall my high school and college physics, > > Ken Zelnick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:43:45 -0600 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: One of the things I dislike about Spads Message-ID: "Anyone have a good way of making mid-bay supports for Spads?" This would be a good application for PE, ala the DML kit. Of course, I've been waiting since October for the custom PE I sent to Fotocut so one should plan ahead... Lance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:49:35 -0600 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: Butterfly Message-ID: "...influenced/supplied by Rodney Gerrard..." Ray Rimell published a piece on the Gerrard scandal, and identified those WS chips influenced by suspect material. The French colors were not involved, IIRC. And I thought that WS DIDhave chips for the two-color Nieuports? Maybe not... Lance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:04:25 +0000 From: xtv16@dial.pipex.com To: Subject: Re: Butterfly Message-ID: <1011801865.3c4edf096594c@netmail.pipex.net> Quoting Lance Krieg : > "...influenced/supplied by Rodney Gerrard..." > > Ray Rimell published a piece on the Gerrard scandal, and identified > those WS chips influenced by suspect material. The French colors were > not involved, IIRC. I have that article to hand. the French chips in Vol 4 no 3,4 were based on matches by Ian Huntley and info from Butterfly. > > And I thought that WS DIDhave chips for the two-color Nieuports? > Maybe not... > Vol 2 no 3 had a french Green and brown, allegedly from a Nie 11, but these came from samples supplied by Gerrard. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:13:35 -0500 (EST) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Butterfly Message-ID: <20020123161335.26276467CE@eclipse.qis.net> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:07:26 -0500 (EST), xtv16@dial.pipex.com wrote: > I have that article to hand. the French chips in Vol 4 no 3,4 were based on > matches by Ian Huntley and info from Butterfly. It was these and PB (Project Butterfly) that Kiger matched his chips to (which are still available, BTW). > Vol 2 no 3 had a french Green and brown, allegedly from a Nie 11, but these > came from samples supplied by Gerrard. One of the reasons (if memory serves) why PB did not address the early Nieuport colors at length was because of the lack of original examples. Everyone can speculate. It was because of the original fabric that PB came into existence. BTW, people, please put your name to the posts. My memory is getting worse and I can't remember everyone's email addy. :-) Matt Bittner Wishing that either Toelle releases something soon, or gives permission to re-release PB in its original guise ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:34:23 +0100 From: a.casirati@cornali-trasporti.it To: Subject: R: Re: Baracca's horse Message-ID: <43EB244779F3D411966E0060082C59E90F0428@SERVER1> AFAIK, baracca litterally conceived his emblem. He was inspired by his former service with the cavalry regiment "Piemonte Reale". All the very best, Alberto -----Messaggio originale----- Da: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]Per conto di Michael Kendix Inviato: mercoledì 23 gennaio 2002 14.18 A: Multiple recipients of list Oggetto: [WWI] Re: Baracca's horse >From: "David's Mail Lists" > >It was mother of Baracca who gave Enzo the permission to use his >cavalino >rampante as the personal emblem for the Scuderia Ferrari, >which ran Alfa >Romeos. After WWI the emblem was used for the Ferrari factory as well. >However, you will see that factor team cars always had >a 2nd emble for the >scuderia or race team. > >The Porsche horse comes from the seal of Stuttgart. This is what I had read; namely Enzo quoted as saying that he should take her son's emblem for good luckk and put it on his cars. The question is where did Baracca himself obtain the emblem - his family's coat of arms or some other source? Michael _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:46:31 EST From: PetersList@aol.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: WW1 Model Gallery Message-ID: <148.84a838e.298042e7@aol.com> In a message dated 23/01/02 14:03:12 GMT Standard Time, mannock@iprimus.com.au writes: << http://www.us-aircraft.com/steve_lawson_gallery.htm >> Thanks for that Neil. He has some really good stuff on there, that DVII is a cracker. Plus he had the guts to do a Blue Max DrI complete with Pobjoy and lozenge. I think I like this guy. cheers Peter L ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:16:10 -0600 From: "" To: "Request from Mexico" Subject: Request from Mexico Message-ID: <30271-220021323161610180@mextel.net.mx> Dear Sirs, we introduce ourselves as Italian company distributing industrial products in Guadalajara Mexico with an extensive sales organization in: Mexico City, Guadalajara and Monterrey. We would like to inform you that we are looking for followings products to buy and distribute in Mexico: WIRE ROPES with following requirements: -Galvanized and Bright, Black Construction for galvanized= (7X19);(7X7);(1X7) Diameter in inches various: 1/4, 1/8 to 5/16 a 3/8 etc.. Construction for Black, Bright= (6X19);(6X25);(6X21);(6X37) Diameter in inches various: from 1/8 to 5/8 a 3/4 etc.. Furthermore we would like to inform you that those products are very potential for Mexican market and we are ready to distribute it in a average quantity of 1 20ft. container every 1/2 months. If you have the requested materials we would appreciate it if you could send us as follows: -Catalogs & brochures of your line product (Please send only by UPS/DHL due the long shipping times of Mexican mail). -Export price list and terms of sale for distribution. -Payments forms and packing lists. -Some small sample to evaluate the construction of your articles. -If you have a certificate of quality (ISO etc..), please attach it with the information. Thank you for your kind attention, I look forward to your soonest reply. NOTE TO SEND E-MAIL: to send us an e-mail please use following e-mail form: http://eurocomnet.com/email/cavi.htm due the problems that we had with our e-mail in last 2 weeks. Your Truly, Mr. Giuseppe Lombardo E U R O C OM Italia/Messico Address: Ricardo Zermeño 1257 dep.402 Fracc. Paseos Del Sol 45070 - ZAPOPAN, Jalisco MEXICO Phone.+5233-3133-2878 Fax ext. 123 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribuzione prodotti industriali italiani in America Latina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:54:41 +0100 From: Lubos.Vinar@deltax.cz To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: VAMP Site Message-ID: Hi all, problem with login is fixed, Hobbyshop.cz is working now. Unfortunately some accounts are lost. If you can't login, register again please. Thanks. Best regards Lubos Vinar http://www.hobbyshop.cz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:05:33 -0300 From: "Marcio Antonio Campos" To: Subject: RE: Request from Mexico Message-ID: <003401c1a438$8de196a0$5d1ba8c0@officesp.starmedia> Should we give him Mr. Tan's address? Marcio Antonio Campos Redator do GuiaSP StarMedia do Brasil +55 11 30436421 marcio.campos@starmedia.net http://www.guiasp.com.br http://www.guiarj.com.br http://www.nacidade.com.br > -----Original Message----- > > Dear Sirs, > > we introduce ourselves as Italian company distributing > industrial products in Guadalajara Mexico ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:34:24 -0600 From: "robert owens" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: N.11/17 instruments?? Message-ID: Help! Need info re number/type/location of N.11 and 17 flight/engine instruments. any help especially photos/diagrams wud be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Rob Owens IPMS/USA#30993 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:52:59 +0100 From: "Grzegorz Mazurowski" To: "wwi lista" Subject: Paint and dope weights Message-ID: <014701c1a436$ce7a5f00$0200a8c0@x.pl> Hi! Someone (probably Diego) asked earlier about weights of OT paints. >From Goworek book: 1 square meter of German fabric weighted 144g, dope for 1 sq. m weighted 68g, and camouflage paint 92g How many sq. meters average plane has? Another info: on SPADs: Fabric was covered with single layer of dope (300-350g/sq m), and then, after sanding, two layers of camo paint (180-200g/sq m), and finally second layer of dope, thinner than first. Too heavy? Wait untill solvents evaporate!!! After complete evaporation of solvents, all that layers weighted together about 80g per square meter of fabric. Lighter than German! Maybe this is why Germans used printed fabrics, and Allies not. Grzegorz _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:17:34 -0800 From: Myles Miller To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: quick Hanriot 5 color camo question Message-ID: <4.1.20020123120214.009f6850@pop.thc.state.tx.us> Hello - I have a quick question for anyone who has built a Hanriot HD.1 and applied French 5 color camo - I have masked and applied the beige, light and dark green, and a portion of the chestnut, but have noticed some discrepancies among various sources for the black and chestnut patterns. Here is the question: does the black and chestnut pattern on the forward fuselage and cowling as depicted in the Eduard painting diagram match the datafile profile? The Eduard instructions show a black pattern across part of the cowling. However, I notice at least one model in the WWI site gallery has a chestnut color in this location. Unfortunately, the Hanriot datafile was one item on my Xmas list that Santa forgot...... Thanks in advance, Myles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:30:24 -0600 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: N.11/17 instruments?? Message-ID: Rob wants: "...info re number/type/location of N.11 and 17 flight/engine instruments." Mike Fletcher may be able to provide photos, but until he does: IIRC instruments were clipped to the framing members as convenient to the pilot; perhaps a pulsometer on the port, a rev counter on the starboard, and a fuel sight gauge on the gas tank. All else optional! Lance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:10:58 +0100 From: "Tomasz Gronczewski" To: Subject: RE: quick Hanriot 5 color camo question Message-ID: > Here is the question: does the black and chestnut pattern > on the forward > fuselage and cowling as depicted in the Eduard painting > diagram match the > datafile profile? Myles, AFAIR Eduard scheme is very inaccurate. It assumes that the pattern on the fuselage was mirrored. It is all-wrong. Also, one of the rules of French 5-color scheme was that there were NO black areas on metal surfaces. Black was used ONLY on fabric surfaces and had NO aluminum powder added. AFAIK in the case of Hanriots black was present on the port lower wing and as a "footstep" on the upper wing only. Tomasz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:29:35 -0500 (EST) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: RE: quick Hanriot 5 color camo question Message-ID: <20020123192935.CC803467CE@eclipse.qis.net> > AFAIR Eduard scheme is very inaccurate. It assumes that the pattern on > the fuselage was mirrored. It is all-wrong. Also, one of the rules of > French 5-color scheme was that there were NO black areas on metal > surfaces. Black was used ONLY on fabric surfaces and had NO aluminum > powder added. AFAIK in the case of Hanriots black was present on the > port lower wing and as a "footstep" on the upper wing only. Are you sure the black didn't have aluminum powder added? I thought PB mentioned it did. Cripes, I don't remember. Now I have to re-read the articles (not that that's a bad thing...). Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:18:52 -0500 (EST) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: French "beige" Message-ID: <20020123201852.4538E46822@eclipse.qis.net> I'm not sure if this will work or not. In re-reading PB I found the Munsell equivalent for the French five-color "beige". Since this appears to be the most contested of the five-color colors, I thought I would pass along the Munsell equvalent, just in case someone with some software can give us a best equivalent. It's: 10YR-2.SY, 5 - 5.5, 4 Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:25:48 -0500 (EST) From: tbittners@sprintmail.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: French black Message-ID: <20020123202548.0711246822@eclipse.qis.net> Well, I stand corrected. Here's the text IRT black in the French five-color: "Comments: This specimen was not examined in detail. It is pure black and neutral in hue. It contains no aluminum flake." My apologies. Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:02:53 +0100 From: "Tomasz Gronczewski" To: Subject: RE: French black Message-ID: > Well, I stand corrected. Here's the text IRT black in the > French five-color: > > "Comments: This specimen was not examined in detail. It is > pure black and neutral in hue. It contains no aluminum flake." I remember Goworek's quotation from French(?) sources: All colors to be applied onto fabric except of black had aluminum powder added. Tomasz ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 2002 13:13:14 -0800 From: Mark Miller To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: French "beige" Message-ID: <20020123211314.19246.cpmta@c016.snv.cp.net> On Wed, 23 January 2002, tbittners@sprintmail.com wrote: > > I'm not sure if this will work or not. In re-reading PB I found the Munsell equivalent for the French five-color "beige". Since this appears to be the most contested of the five-color colors, I thought I would pass along the Munsell equvalent, just in case someone with some software can give us a best equivalent. It's: 10YR-2.SY, 5 - 5.5, 4 > > > Matt Bittner Matt I'm not sure about the Munsell number you quote here. 2.SY is not a valid value in any case for the Munsell Value: 10.00YR - 5.00 - 5.5 you get: R165 - G129 - B78 Plug the numbers into Photoshop Note - this RGB number assume a maximum value of 256 If you want - I can mail you a .jpg of the color Also note - I have yet to validate the colors this translater is generating. so take it for what it's worth Mark Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:28:21 -0600 From: "Lee M." To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Nigels mortars: Message-ID: <3C4F2AF5.5DA3B5CA@x25.net> That good sir is exactly what I mentioned in a very early message. Modern explosives and techniques can not be well compared to events in a far different time frame. WW II mortars were not WW I mortars and they did not play by the same rules. I am sure the ammo in Beirut was not the same as we used in Belgium and Normandy. (I was not there on D-Day but the same ammo was.) I have never seen the "specs" on the 1960-70s ballistics so It is a big mystery to me. A number of artillery piece that give no warning. Speed of sound is 1056 per second (roughly). The 88mm Flak 41 had a muzzle velocity of 3280 FPS triple the speed of sound. Even the big 128MM Pak, (Anti-tank) 449l/55) had a muzzle velocity of 3020 with APC ammo and 2886 FPS with HE... There would be a "screech" and then boom almost together. At the first indication of the scream hit the dirt and it gave no time to consider where it came from. All I ever was sure of was where it hit, and, I was always thankful it was just past me or more. Next event was, that as soon as practical, I was no longer in that immediate vicinity. The only device that can follow the modern mortar, round in flight, is a dual setup, or more, of sound detectors and Radar. This is a device that will track and then redirect our return fire onto the shooter. It was made during the Korean thing and the tubes that were redirected were the 105 mortars and I believe they had a few of the new 120's around. There may have been a connection to artillery but it was not really needed on a Mortar to Mortar basis. I was not there but I do recall reading about it and I did see some of the equipment in the early 1960s at an Air Force research center. I have been out so long I do not know if they still have any of those detection things around. The only thing I keep track of now is Airborne Lasers. (If anyone wants to discuss those get me off list. Be prepared to let me know who and where you really are. Because I will check...) Lee M. New Braunfels, Tx Balzer Mr Gregory P wrote: > > I was a 60mm mortar platoon commander for about two years, and transitioned > the Marine Corps from the old M-19 to the new M224. In my experience, you > might see a flash as the round exited the tube, but distance and speed made > it impossible to follow it in flight. > > Having spent a tour in Beirut, my personal experience is that mortars were > far worse on the nerves than artillery. You hear the discharge of the > piece, and in time, with artillery, you get a feel as to where it's going. > With mortars, don't bother looking for the round, head for the nearest hole! > I never recall looking up and seeing a round in the air at max ord, too > high, too fast, too small. The only rounds I ever tracked in flight were > .50 cal tracer rounds at night. > > FWIW, > Greg > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shane Weier [mailto:sdw@qld.mim.com.au] > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 9:27 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [WWI] Re: Nigels mortars: > > Neil says: > > > Other accounts describe the "rush" > > of the shell to > > its target on the downwards arc of the trajectory, following > > a lazy upwards arc. > > The same (with negligible variations) maths governs the upwards flight as > the downwards. > > Upwards it starts at muzzle velocity and decelerates by 9.8m/sec/sec plus > effects of drag. > > Going down it accelerates at 9.8m/sec/sec less effects of drag. > > Victim hears "BANG" and looks up. By the time he sights the minnie it's > decelerated at travelling slowly. At some point it ceases to go up and at > that point its vertical velocity is zip. > > Down she comes, and also, incidentally, a horizontal component. Accelerating > by the square of course, which means it gets faster, faster (and > incidentally, is also coming towards you with the horizontal component of > the motion which was also so on the way up but THEN it was tangential and > not nearly so scary) > > Add a very large pucker factor and is it any wonder we get descriptions of > the "rush" to the target at the end of flight? > > Shane > > ********************************************************************** > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is > intended only for the use of the addressee(s). > If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or > copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to > forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the > MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. > > For general enquires: ++61 7 3833 8000 > Support Centre e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au > Support Centre phone: Australia 1800500646 > International ++61 7 38338042 > ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:08:17 +0100 From: "Tomasz Gronczewski" To: Subject: RE: French "beige" Message-ID: > just in case someone with some software > can give us a best equivalent. It's: 10YR-2.SY, 5 - 5.5, 4 Well, the truth is hidden in a following region: 10.00YR, 5, 4 = R:159, G:131, B:094 = C-20, M:31, Y:45, K:17 2.50Y, 5, 4 = R:155, G:133, B:091 = C:20, M:28, Y:45, K:19 10.00YR, 5.5, 4 = R:172, G:143, B:106 = C:20, M:31, Y:45, K:12 2.50Y, 5.5, 4 = R:167, G:145, B:102 = C:20, M:28, Y:45, K:14 For me it looks nice ;o) Just like on my finished Hanriot (Humbrol 187) Tomasz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:19:53 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Hobbyshop.cz Shipping Costs Message-ID: <20020123221953.76842.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, Does anyone here have a reasonably clear idea of the new shipping costs from Hobbyshop.cz? The amount is based on weight and value of the order, but that explanation is still too vague. Just what % is charged? Any answers? Todd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:24:05 -0500 From: "Michael and Sharon Alvarado, NSWCC" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: control surface positioning Message-ID: <3C4F3805.370EEEFD@verizon.net> Diego, My flying career started in sailplanes, Scweitzer 2-22, 2-32, 1-26 and Libelle 301. Alvie Diego Fernetti wrote: > Alvie wrote: > >This is true. The rudder on my C152 was next to useless. The plane could > >very > > > well be flown with the feet planted firmly on the floor. > > These cessna pilots are all a bunch of slackers. Get a glider and try the > same stunt. You'll loose a few meters on each turn. > psst! > D. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:34:06 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: WW1 Model Gallery Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C7102BCDAB2@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Neil, > I found this gallery while surfin'. Some nice subjects and > models here.... > > http://www.us-aircraft.com/steve_lawson_gallery.htm > FWIW Steve Lawson is an ex listee (and maybe also a current but lurking listee) , a WW1 historian of some note who (amongst other things) has translated Jacobs personal diaries - published in OtF a coupl eof years ago Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. For general enquires: ++61 7 3833 8000 Support Centre e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au Support Centre phone: Australia 1800500646 International ++61 7 38338042 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 4100 **********************