WWI Digest 3531

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Welcome back Alberto
	by Andreikor@aol.com
  2) Jay's latest
	by Andreikor@aol.com
  3) Re: Crowood Publishing:
	by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Volker_H=E4usler?= <hus@schott.com.my>
  4) Jay's  D.VIIs
	by "John & Allison Cyganowski" <janah@worldnet.att.net>
  5) Lone Star Models Macchi M-5 & DH-5 Kits
	by "Patrick Gilmore" <petrov26@home.com>
  6) Phonix D.I & Phonix D.II Available
	by "Courtney Allen" <c-j-allen@worldnet.att.net>
  7) symbols - was: Un subbing too
	by NodalPoint@aol.com
  8) RE: Jay's  D.VIIs
	by "Dave Watts" <davew@wattstrainshop.com>
  9) Today in history - the Italian front
	by "a.casirati@cornali-trasporti.it" <a.casirati@cornali-trasporti.it>
 10) Re: Lone Star Models Macchi M-5 & DH-5 Kits
	by "Bob Pearson" <bpearson@rapidnet.net>
 11) Osprey Fokker & Spad aces books viewed
	by David Solosy <SOLOSYD@opssc.wa.gov.au>
 12) RE: Latest
	by "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
 13) RE: Latest
	by "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
 14) RE: Latest
	by "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
 15) Re: Jay's latest
	by "tsollers" <tsollers@bcpl.net>
 16) Images
	by "Tom Plesha" <plesha3@home.com>
 17) Profile of Rumey's (?) Demon-head Alb?
	by "Stefen Karver" <skarver@core.com>
 18) Re: MisterKit Paint
	by "Limon3" <Limon3@msn.com>
 19) NATS pictures
	by "Chris Cato" <chris@katonic.com>
 20) Admin on Holliday
	by Allan Wright <aew>
 21) Ansaldo restoration site
	by "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
 22) skeletal nieuport 28
	by "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
 23) RE: Latest
	by "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
 24) Re: Jay's latest
	by "David C. Fletcher" <dcf@mars.ark.com>
 25) RE: Jay's latest
	by "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
 26) Re: Jay's latest
	by "tsollers" <tsollers@bcpl.net>
 27) RE: Jay's latest
	by "Bittner, Matthew E. (KTR)~U" <BITTNERM@stratcom.mil>
 28) RE: Jay's latest
	by "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
 29) Re: Profile of Rumey's (?) Demon-head Alb?
	by Mark Miller <albatros1212@altavista.com>
 30) Re: Jay's latest
	by KarrArt@aol.com
 31) other stuff plusRe: Jay's latest
	by KarrArt@aol.com
 32) Re: Jay's latest
	by KarrArt@aol.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:22:18 EDT
From: Andreikor@aol.com
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Welcome back Alberto
Message-ID: <f2.cf521cc.28863eca@aol.com>

Good to have you back, Alberto...
Hope your vacation was restful!
Cheers,
Andrei


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:30:45 EDT
From: Andreikor@aol.com
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <61.10a025cc.288640c5@aol.com>

Gorgeous job, Jay! It looks more 'painterly' than the other images, which I 
particularly like... kinda reminds me of Wootton! and I think the atmosphere 
is spot on. More, more, more!
Cheers,
Andrei



Andrei Koribanics II
8 Falcon Place
Wayne, NJ 07470
USA
Voice/Fax: 973-696-9378
email: andreikor@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:12:22 +0800
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Volker_H=E4usler?= <hus@schott.com.my>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Re: Crowood Publishing:
Message-ID: <007301c10f2f$169c34e0$7f01010a@jaring.my>

Rob, you asked:

> Hi List type folks:  A couple of days ago someone had mentioned two new
> books coming out from Crowood Publishing (?).  One was a Fokker book and
> one on German WW I Artillery...and apparently they have a website..I
> can't seem to locate it thru normal means...( me fumbling around like an
> idiot,)  so does someone have their website handy....Tnx much....Bob
> Horton
>
> Sorry...a P.S. if you will...Bob Pearson...really neat profiles of the
> "vettes"  Is the Revell model kit the same basically as the old Matchbox
> of some years ago?
>

Crowood is under (surprise!) http://www.crowood.com

or directly under

http://216.156.182.106/780/index.asp

I had a look non that Fokker book and must admit that I was not very
impressed. Little new information IMHO, most (if not all) pictures quite
well known. But then it obviously depends on how much stuff you already got
on Fokker.

And yes, the Revell kitis the same as the old Matchbox.

Volker


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:56:45 -0400
From: "John & Allison Cyganowski" <janah@worldnet.att.net>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Jay's  D.VIIs
Message-ID: <002701c10f2c$e71d0160$af39183f@cyrixp166>

Jay, Your D.VIIs are spectacular!

John Cyg.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 22:06:07 -0700
From: "Patrick Gilmore" <petrov26@home.com>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Lone Star Models Macchi M-5 & DH-5 Kits
Message-ID: <006001c10f47$5ad52fa0$dc2d0d18@grapid1.mi.home.com>

Hello,
    Does anyone on the list have the two kits mentioned in the subject line
and can comment on the quality, parts content, accuracy, etc.?

Thanks,
Patrick Gilmore


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:17:53 -0700
From: "Courtney Allen" <c-j-allen@worldnet.att.net>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Phonix D.I & Phonix D.II Available
Message-ID: <007401c10f2f$da940da0$9456510c@worldnet.att.net>

List;

I see that Squadron http://www.squadron.com/New.htm has the new MAC Phonix
kits in stock for $14.96.  Courtney



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:47:42 EDT
From: NodalPoint@aol.com
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: symbols - was: Un subbing too
Message-ID: <cd.950154a.28866eee@aol.com>


I wanted to address the ebay issue.

As much as I hate what the Nazis stood for and how they carried out their 
ideas, I find it disturbing that people believe we can prevent past 
activities from reoccurring by either forgetting or erasing the past.

I for one do not build models or read certain books because I love Nazis or 
worship their leader, but because I am interested in history. I can 
understand not wanting to sell hate literature or things which glorify 
atrocities, but if you start banning everything associated with a particular 
era or movement because of a symbol, it begins to take on an Orwellian tone. 
Looking at the World War coverage in history books that kids in high school 
read today is eye-opening as well. 

I'm sure there are people out there who build models or collect relics 
because of a sick fascination, but I'm sure it's a small minority. I don't 
want to collect that stuff but I don't care if someone else does if it's 
their interest or hobby and their not harming others.

Of course most people here know the history of the swastika and how it was 
borrowed by the Nazis. Some people probably find the rising sun flag 
offensive as well, I don't think that should be banned.

I know this is off topic, but it is worrisome that an interest in history 
might label people a certain way. Should I be worried about buying aviation 
or armor books at the local bookstore that might have a swastika or Nazi 
image on the cover?

Sometimes, things that start small have a way of growing quickly. I don't 
like the idea of sanitizing the past.

Steve


 <<
 Tom wrote:
 .  So they
 > removed three of his Verlinden WW-II kits because they contained
 swastikas.
 >
 Tom and All,
                       Actually, Ebay had been doing this for some time now,
 nothing new for them.  I have four auctions ending right now that have
 swastikas on them, and have been waiting the whole time for ebay to pull
 them.  They can be rather arbitrary about their own policy. I too find it
 disgusting in the extreme.
 
 Politically Incorrect,
 
 Warren
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:13:00 -0500
From: "Dave Watts" <davew@wattstrainshop.com>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: RE: Jay's  D.VIIs
Message-ID: <NEBBLPJFFCCDNFMFLHLGKEIMCPAA.davew@wattstrainshop.com>

Could someone repost Jay's web address to check out his excellent work?

Thanks!
Dave W.

-----Original Message-----
From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of John &
Allison Cyganowski
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 9:08 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Jay's D.VIIs

Jay, Your D.VIIs are spectacular!

John Cyg.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:28:37 +0200
From: "a.casirati@cornali-trasporti.it" <a.casirati@cornali-trasporti.it>
To: "Wwi Modeling List (Posta elettronica)" <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Today in history - the Italian front
Message-ID: <43EB244779F3D411966E0060082C59E906F047@SERVER1>

18th July 1915: the second battle of Isonzo begins on the Italian front.

Alberto Casirati



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:00:23 -0700
From: "Bob Pearson" <bpearson@rapidnet.net>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Lone Star Models Macchi M-5 & DH-5 Kits
Message-ID: <3B55183A000042BC@mail.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com)

The DH5 was reviewed in Internet Modeler last March, April. . or maybe May
2000

Bob

----------
>From: "Patrick Gilmore" <petrov26@home.com>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi@wwi-models.org>
>Subject: Lone Star Models Macchi M-5 & DH-5 Kits
>Date: Tue, Jul 17, 2001, 7:14 pm
>

> Hello,
>     Does anyone on the list have the two kits mentioned in the subject line
> and can comment on the quality, parts content, accuracy, etc.?
>
> Thanks,
> Patrick Gilmore
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:21:20 +0800
From: David Solosy <SOLOSYD@opssc.wa.gov.au>
To: "WW1 List (E-mail)" <wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
Subject: Osprey Fokker & Spad aces books viewed
Message-ID: <56EBF0EF4A03D4118C6F00902776597F2D1365@s26pss4.pssc.wa.gov.au>

Hi chaps and chapesses
 
I unsubbed some weeks ago 'cos I went overseas (Ireland, England, France)
for a holiday, but now I'm back. Visited Shuttleworth and Duxford. Drool.
Nice to read you are all as enthusiastic and witty as ever.
 
I'm still lurking but decided to butt in to let y'all know that I have just
seen the new Osprey Aces series books on the Fokker DrI Aces and the SPAD
VII Aces. Very tasty. Nice artwork, plenty of schemes, text looks good (from
my very brief flip through) and absolutely, definitely, totally worth
having.
 
Also been fondling the sprues of the Eduard Nieuport 11. Compatriot and
fellow listee Rob Baumgartner has the Gavia Bristol Scout. We'll be build
and reviewing these two for the On the Western Front page of the PMMS
website. 
 
DS
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:10:35 -0500
From: "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: RE: Latest
Message-ID: <FJEGKPNCHHAOAPICIDCMGECICGAA.vossie@mindspring.com>

First, thanks everyone for the kind words;-) Each one of these takes me a
good 60 hours or so all told, doing the markings texture maps, rendering,
compositing, backgrounds, etc., and it's nice to know that they give folks
some enjoyment.

Carlos, I talked to Dan this afternoon to get that clarified, and he has
found a photograph that was apparently published in a German newspaper
shortly after the war that shows DDN from a 3/4 front view. He said since
it's an old newspaper photo, the quality is pretty bad, but he can clearly
see the entire turtle deck is white, the stripes continue to the
undersurface of the top wing, and the entire fuselage was red. C&C say
they're interested in running this image, and if they do I'll try and talk
Dan-San into writing something up in detail about it.

-----Original Message-----
From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of Carlos
Valdes
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 12:28 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Latest

> Allan just put my latest up, a rendering of Udet's "Du Doch Nicht!!"
downing
> a SPAD XIII (Sorry Matt!) of SPA.96 on 25 June, 1918. One interesting
thing
> about this one (right or wrong) is that it shows DDN in its "new" look
from
> Dan-San, who now says he's certain that there was a single stripe on the
> turtle deck, not two.

        Wonderful work again, Jay. Could you give us some details behind
DSA's
reasoning?
                                                Carlos


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:22:18 -0500
From: "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: RE: Latest
Message-ID: <FJEGKPNCHHAOAPICIDCMOECICGAA.vossie@mindspring.com>

Yep Steve, in the end, virtually all color choices we make for WWI aircraft,
be they 1/72 plastic, paintings, or full-seized repros is opinion.

For example, Dan-San has DDN a more crimson color. I moved the hue toward
vermillion more. Why? Because I liked it better that way. I don't (and Dan
doesn't either) have any real idea of the exact hue and shade- I picked this
because my artist's eye said it was prettier that way.

As for firsthand accounts, yep, anywhere from a grain to a block of salt.
Memories aren't great, and the mind does funny things when pumped full of
adrenaline. As an exercise, open up Photoshop and try and pick out the exact
color of your first car, and then the colors of the interior. Then stop and
think about whether you have any clue as to whether that's right or not.
THEN, go back and read pilot's statements taken 30, 40, or 50 years later as
to the color of the stripes on some aircraft's horizontal stab...

-----Original Message-----
From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of Steven
Perry
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 4:15 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Latest

. I *think* my
> monitor is fairly well calibrated, but you just never know- the only thing
I
> can guarantee is that any image I produce will look different on just
about
> every single person's machine, and it will look different in print.

First, Thats a beautiful piece Jay. I always liked that plane and that's a
big help in visualizing Dan-San's ideas.

You bring up an interesting point about the variety of color rendition on
various monitors and printers. It points out just how incredibly active our
brains are in interperting the colors we see. Without a second monitor or
printer to compare, we see the colors our brain expects to see in a given
situation.

It makes me take eyewitness accounts of colors, especially those seen in
combat, with a tad more skepticism. The witness saw what his brain told him
he saw and that is not necessarally what his eyes actually saw.  Your
comment brought home the extent of this effect.
sp


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:39:32 -0300
From: "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: RE: Latest
Message-ID: <00d401c10f75$ee6262a0$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar>

Jay!
> I *think* my
> monitor is fairly well calibrated, but you just never know- the only thing
I
> can guarantee is that any image I produce will look different on just
about
> every single person's machine, and it will look different in print.

After I read the messages yesterday I started fiddlign with my monitor
setings and yes, there it was the atmospheric effect, I should stand
corrected. It was subtle and realistic, so I like this picture more! (Did I
mention that I put it as screen background?)
Now do a Nieuport, Jay!
D.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:22:10 -0400
From: "tsollers" <tsollers@bcpl.net>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <200107181322.f6IDMHr19263@mail.bcpl.net>

Jay:

I concur with everyone that this is your best work yet and I think one of
the reasons why is the painterly quality you have achieved. This work
transcends the rather sterile look of many computer renderings and enters
the realm of art.

I used to hand around with the American Society of Aviation Artists a while
back, when the society was first formed (and while I was still painting). I
used to use a computer program written by a friend of mine to generate plots
to draw my aircraft. The practice was frowned upon by the "old school" of
the society. There was a definite air of disapproval among many of the
artists over the use of computers in the creation of any aspect of artwork.
I'm not sure why. Perhaps they felt threatened.

Anyhow, you are further proof that a computer is a tool, just like a brush
or a pencil, that in the hands of a talented person can create impressive
works. IMHO the way your work is developing you will someday deserve a place
in the ASAA among the "big" names.

Bravo! And, keep'em coming!

Tom

P.S. How large can these be reproduced without compromising detail? Ever
thought of prints?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:37:45 -0400
From: "Tom Plesha" <plesha3@home.com>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Images
Message-ID: <000d01c10f8e$d3dc7e20$2cfdfa18@mcmb1.mi.home.com>

Jay-
Absolutely beautiful.  Unbelievable, Gorgeous, those are just a sample of
what describes your work,
Thank you for sharing your work.
Later
Tom
S.E.MI.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:12:17 -0400
From: "Stefen Karver" <skarver@core.com>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Profile of Rumey's (?) Demon-head Alb?
Message-ID: <007101c10f93$b055b2a0$ed6dd6d8@stephen>

G'day, List--
Has someone done up a profile (or otherwise described) this interesting,
unusual marking?
Thanks & VBR to all,
Stefen


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:28:50 -0700
From: "Limon3" <Limon3@msn.com>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Re: MisterKit Paint
Message-ID: <001301c10f95$f8067100$a9f7303f@i7e2z6>

Tom,
I used the MK paints mixed with a bit of Future, and the colors were very
smooth.  Perhaps it's just those two paints in particular.
Gabe
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Plesha <plesha3@home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 1:03 PM
Subject: MisterKit Paint


> Hi All-
> I'm using MK Paint and it leaves a grainy type finish, at least with the
PC
> 10 and CDL.  Anyone else get this type of finish?
> It looks OK and when I top coat it I'm sure it will be fine.  Any
comments.
> TIA
> Later
> Tom
> S.E.MI.
>
>


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:58:24 -0500
From: "Chris Cato" <chris@katonic.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: NATS pictures
Message-ID: <000701c10f9a$bf42f0a0$90381004@Chris.netzero.net>

Hi all!  A bit late I suppose but I just wanted to say what a pleasure it
was to meet fellow list members at the Nats.  Living in Chicago gave me the
opportunity to go most days and keep my expenses to a minimum - and it was
just a stunning experience.  The quality of the company, the models, and the
pizza was just unparalleled.  I know it has been said before but if you get
the opportunity to meet other list members - DO IT!  A great time and
despite jokes about burning my model stash when I got home I left the show
with a enough inspiration to last me the year!  Unfortunately other
responsibilites kept me away from the awards banquet/ceremony on Sunday so
my  belated congratulations to all!  So, for those who missed it or those
who might just want to admire the models some more I've posted pics of
nearly every OT aircraft model at show and a few other things at:

http://www.katonic.com/nats/

You can click on the numbered links at the top of the first page to get to
other pages.  There are about 180 or so photos up including quite a few of
Bob Davies stunning scratchbuilt Curtis R-6.  I believe Bob has under
construction photos of this build in John Alcorn's The Master
Scratchbuilders.  Also look at the products link on the above page for build
up photos of the new Eduard N.11 and the Gavia Bristol Scout.

Enjoy!

Chris Cato
chris@katonic.com


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:13:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Allan Wright <aew>
To: wwi
Subject: Admin on Holliday
Message-ID: <200107181513.LAA02878@pease1.sr.unh.edu>

Hi all,

   I'll be taking my annual trip to Lancaster, PA tomorrow through Sunday
for the Historicon convention (east coast HMGS wargaming con). I'll be offline
from 4:30pm EST today until Monday morning. If things go wonky I'll have to 
fix them when I get back on Monday.

   Play nice while I'm gone! If you're going to the con - I'll be playing in
Rich Oster's Blue Max game (whenever that is). See you there!

Allan Wright - List/Website admin

===============================================================================
Allan Wright Jr.            | Without love life's just a long fight - Southside
University of New Hampshire +--------------------------------------------------
Research Computing Center   | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@wwi-models.org
Internet: aew@unh.edu       | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://www.wwi-models.org
===============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:37:02 -0300
From: "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
To: "ww1 list" <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: Ansaldo restoration site
Message-ID: <003601c10fa7$e054e660$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar>

I've been surfing the updated pages on the restoration of the Ansaldo
Balilla. It's fascinating as all WW1 airplane restorations, to see how those
old crates can be preserved.
However, this time it's cool to see that the restoration it's not just
another obscure technical project carried by an association of enthusiasts
and museum technicians, but that the aeroplane itself is a relic dear to an
entire town and a memorial for a local war hero.
Alberto, that's a great job and a very complicated task to be carried by you
and the GAVS team. Is there a forthcoming article on this restoration on
Windsock or WW1 Aero? I certainly look forward to read more!
D.
PS: So the camouflage was done with tempera?????? It must have been
necessary to get a lot of tubes! ;-)


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:11:38 -0300
From: "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
To: "ww1 list" <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: skeletal nieuport 28
Message-ID: <00ca01c10fac$b51db8a0$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar>

More input from the south...
I examined carefully the pictures appeared on the Windsock mag describing
the Model Airways nieuport 28 contents. Of Course, RR is very generous with
its description as the model is the prize of his contest, but I see that the
castings included on the model aren't very accurate (at least those on the
cockpit). The engine looks right, except for the heavy pushrods. The
wingstruts sould be wood instead of metal (a fact the Rimell overlooked).
My impression is that the kit is impressive, of course, and I would be VERY
glad to win the raffle, but to build an accurate model , as the size and
materials make it worth the effort, there must be a considerable effort.
Has anyone started his MA Nieuport? Any comments?
D.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:38:55 -0500
From: "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: RE: Latest
Message-ID: <FJEGKPNCHHAOAPICIDCMOECMCGAA.vossie@mindspring.com>

I think Mark Miller has a Nieuport 17 in his schedule, and since he does it
at least as well as I do, I'd hate to repeat quality work;-)

I thinking of several things- I have a Brisfit that's already pretty good,
just needs a few weeks of work to bring it up to current standard. I also
have a Dr.I in about the same condition. I have a Camel model too, but it
was the second thing I did back in 1995 and I can't even bear to look at
it...I would have to start from scratch. My real love is the German stuff,
but I think I do have to work on some Allied machines, if for nothing else
to have more gun fodder for my German fighters;-)

Glad you're enjoying it!

-----Original Message-----
From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of dfernet0
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 5:39 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: Latest

Jay!
> I *think* my
> monitor is fairly well calibrated, but you just never know- the only thing
I
> can guarantee is that any image I produce will look different on just
about
> every single person's machine, and it will look different in print.

After I read the messages yesterday I started fiddlign with my monitor
setings and yes, there it was the atmospheric effect, I should stand
corrected. It was subtle and realistic, so I like this picture more! (Did I
mention that I put it as screen background?)
Now do a Nieuport, Jay!
D.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:50:44 -0700
From: "David C. Fletcher" <dcf@mars.ark.com>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <3B55CC74.4070800@mars.ark.com>

tsollers wrote:

"I used to use a computer program written by a friend of mine to generate plots
to draw my aircraft. The practice was frowned upon by the "old school" of
 the society..."

I ran into the same attitude because I used an airbrush.  I had an 
"artist" sneer at me because I used a "mechanical method".  My reply was 
a question - "Oh, do you use only finger paints then?"  A brush, palette 
knife or whatever are tools too, and we should use whatever helps to 
achieve the aim, even computers (gosh, even Macs...).  Michaelangelo 
didn't sculpt with his bare hands.  Remember, an artist is only a person 
with enough gall to call himself an artist!

To bring this discussion closer to "OT",  some 'war artists' had only 
the barest understanding of what they were painting - there is one 
well-known WWI painting with an aircraft with all four ailerons 
deflected upwards in the performance of a loop; it's still treated as 
art by the curators, but I cringe...

Dave Fletcher
-- 
Visit us at our Home Page:
<http://mars.ark.com/~dcf/>


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:49:43 -0500
From: "Jay M. Thompson" <vossie@mindspring.com>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: RE: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <FJEGKPNCHHAOAPICIDCMGECNCGAA.vossie@mindspring.com>

The version of all of these that you've seen are way sampled down from the
full versions, which are all 4096x3072. These could be comfortably printed
at up to 20" wide without losing quality. Yes I've been thinking about
prints, but honestly I hate the "standard" way of doing things, which is
Giclee process or 6-color lithography- both are very expensive to produce
and result in print prices of $500 and up. I'd like to make my work more
accessible without compromising on quality. The good news is that there's a
new crop of high-end ink jet printers that every review I've read in
industry publications say that they easily rival traditional printing.
Better yet, they have new archival ink technologies that guarantee light
fastness of 100 years.

Once I get a few more things done, this is probably what I will do, and I'll
be looking at prices (hopefully) in the $100 range for prints of around
18"x24".

I'd be interested in hearing the list feedback about this idea, as you folks
pretty much represent the target market;-)

I know what you mean about people frowning on this type of work. There's an
(totally incorrect IMO) assumption that somehow this is "easier" than true
paintings. The truth is that people like Mark and I not only have to have
all of the skills of a traditional painter, but we have to have thorough
understandings of photography, cinematography, a near-scientific knowledge
of the physics of light and how it reacts with environments and surfaces,
and to top it all off, be CAD whizzes. Easy, eh?

-----Original Message-----
From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of tsollers
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 8:27 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Jay's latest

Jay:

I concur with everyone that this is your best work yet and I think one of
the reasons why is the painterly quality you have achieved. This work
transcends the rather sterile look of many computer renderings and enters
the realm of art.

I used to hand around with the American Society of Aviation Artists a while
back, when the society was first formed (and while I was still painting). I
used to use a computer program written by a friend of mine to generate plots
to draw my aircraft. The practice was frowned upon by the "old school" of
the society. There was a definite air of disapproval among many of the
artists over the use of computers in the creation of any aspect of artwork.
I'm not sure why. Perhaps they felt threatened.

Anyhow, you are further proof that a computer is a tool, just like a brush
or a pencil, that in the hands of a talented person can create impressive
works. IMHO the way your work is developing you will someday deserve a place
in the ASAA among the "big" names.

Bravo! And, keep'em coming!

Tom

P.S. How large can these be reproduced without compromising detail? Ever
thought of prints?


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:22:36 -0400
From: "tsollers" <tsollers@bcpl.net>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <200107181822.f6IIMar15051@mail.bcpl.net>

The good news is that there's a
> new crop of high-end ink jet printers that every review I've read in
> industry publications say that they easily rival traditional printing.
> Better yet, they have new archival ink technologies that guarantee light
> fastness of 100 years.

Jay:

I think it depends on your market. If you're going to go for the galleries
or catalogs, I think you'll have a hard time selling ink-jet prints. I've
seen some very pleasing results from ink-jets, but as of yet nothing to
match the quality of a lithograph. There is the issue of paper weight,
texture and quality also. People will pay a good price for a quality
product. Moreover, a run of several thousand can be accomplished in a matter
of a few minutes with traditional printing, as opposed to one every few
minutes on the ink-jet. It's tempting to keep costs down, but your time will
be better spent creating rather than producing prints.

I think a large run using 6-color printing would be the way to go. And then
market to Historic Aviation, etc.  The biggest question is: How big is the
market?

You've got a good product. IMHO think big and run with it.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:44:13 -0000
From: "Bittner, Matthew E. (KTR)~U" <BITTNERM@stratcom.mil>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: RE: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <850CD1B940F1D31181590000929B19DA01A6F0EB@mail3.stratcom.mil>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tsollers [mailto:tsollers@bcpl.net]

> I think it depends on your market. If you're going to go for 
> the galleries
> or catalogs, I think you'll have a hard time selling ink-jet 
> prints. I've
> seen some very pleasing results from ink-jets, but as of yet 
> nothing to
> match the quality of a lithograph.

Okay, being the type of list this is, what about the ALPS?  Amazing quality
on that printer.  Just a thought.


Matt Bittner

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:56:43 -0300
From: "dfernet0" <dfernet0@rosario.gov.ar>
To: <wwi@wwi-models.org>
Subject: RE: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <016a01c10fbb$62ddf960$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar>

Matt wrote:
> Okay, being the type of list this is, what about the ALPS?  Amazing
quality
> on that printer.  Just a thought.

The prints i've seen from Robert Karr on ALPS are of excellent quality. But
how's the biggest size that an ALPS can print?
D.


------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 2001 11:52:02 -0700
From: Mark Miller <albatros1212@altavista.com>
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Profile of Rumey's (?) Demon-head Alb?
Message-ID: <20010718185202.25465.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

On Wed, 18 July 2001, "Stefen Karver" wrote:

> G'day, List-- Has someone done up a profile (or otherwise described) this interesting, unusual marking? Thanks & VBR to all,
Stefen >

Demon-head Alb??
sounds interesting - I don't recall ever seeing anything like that

But is this the same Rumey
responsible for the candy stripe scheme(s) and the "old bones scheme"
The guy must have liked keeping his ground crew busy

Mark



Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:52:42 EDT
From: KarrArt@aol.com
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <20.19631864.288734fa@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/18/01 11:24:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tsollers@bcpl.net writes:

<< Jay:
 
 I think it depends on your market. If you're going to go for the galleries
 or catalogs, I think you'll have a hard time selling ink-jet prints. I've
 seen some very pleasing results from ink-jets, but as of yet nothing to
 match the quality of a lithograph.  >>

The new age is here- several well-known av-artists are already doing this for 
smaller size prints, and the results are disgustingly great! The end product 
is maybe a little better than traditional printing. 'Course the machines 
being used aren't exactly the $49 special from the local electronics 
discounter. I do not know the exact type, but one particular artist has been 
rolling out his own prints using one of the higher-end Epsons that prints up 
to (I believe) 16"x infinity(or as long as the paper!) For smaller size 
prints, it should be quite handy- one could do the whole process in one's 
house.
And- same deal as the traditional way of doing limited editions, except 
instead of destroying the plaes, one erases the original file.
RK

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:52:44 EDT
From: KarrArt@aol.com
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: other stuff plusRe: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <ea.185fbbb3.288734fc@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/18/01 10:50:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
vossie@mindspring.com writes:

<< 
 I know what you mean about people frowning on this type of work. There's an
 (totally incorrect IMO) assumption that somehow this is "easier" than true
 paintings. The truth is that people like Mark and I not only have to have
 all of the skills of a traditional painter, but we have to have thorough
 understandings of photography, cinematography, a near-scientific knowledge
 of the physics of light and how it reacts with environments and surfaces,
 and to top it all off, be CAD whizzes. Easy, eh? >>

It's another tool. The goal is still the same- to get something inside your 
head OUTSIDE. The new Udet image makes me puke- the highest praise I can 
offer. All the substances that go into an airplane are depicted realistically 
yet splashed with an individual touch (a very difficult balancing act!) Jay 
and Mark are consistantly amazing me.......the old farts in the ASAA or what 
ever the heck it's called can tremble all they want if they fear this new 
stuff. I for one love paint- the smell, the taste, the texture, the flow, the 
messed up clothes- the whole works....BUT- I don't really care how anybody 
gets that image out of their head and into a form where others can marvel- 
and marvel I do. I plan on stealing all the licks I can from guys like Mark 
and Jay.(but I would say a traditional painter also has to have a pretty good 
knowledge of things like light behavior, surfaces, etc!)
BTW- hey Mark- I just got the new OtF with your Albatros work on the back 
cover......whew- having seen these great images on-line, all I can say it is 
a crying shame that at least on my copy, OtF totally screwed things up. 
Pretty much a bunch of dark yellow blobs interspersed with black patches. 
Considering how precisely you autopsied the Albatros, I for one am rather 
bummed.
RK

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:59:19 EDT
From: KarrArt@aol.com
To: wwi@wwi-models.org
Subject: Re: Jay's latest
Message-ID: <e3.17a8e059.28873687@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/18/01 11:47:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
BITTNERM@stratcom.mil writes:

<< 
 Okay, being the type of list this is, what about the ALPS?  Amazing quality
 on that printer.  Just a thought.
 
 
 Matt Bittner >>

The ALPS regular mode is merely OK. The photo-realistic mode on the more 
expensive models has a few seemingly unsolvable problems (not to mention that 
one is limited to a certain paper size). Large graded areas (such 
as......as.......oh.....skies) are almost impossible to print without 
banding. The banding control merely makes thing fuzzy. By the point where a 
smooth color blend is achieved, everything has gone off focus. Those little 
half-ass WW I prints I peddle have very little sky background for this reason.
RK

------------------------------

End of WWI Digest 3531
**********************