WWI Digest 3282 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: OTF - Sept 2001 by DavidL1217@aol.com 2) RE: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red by "Ray Boorman" 3) OTF 15/4 by "Bob Pearson" 4) Re: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red by KarrArt@aol.com 5) RE: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red by "Gaston Graf" 6) RE: Emhar MkIV photos, also pastels and Bovington by "Nigel Rayner" 7) Re: Emhar MkIV photos, also pastels and Bovington by "Bob Pearson" 8) Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals by "David Calhoun" 9) Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals by "Brad & Merville" 10) Re: Jasta 11 Red by "David Calhoun" 11) Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals by "David Calhoun" 12) New Salmson photos by "Jim Landon" 13) RE: Jasta 11 Red by "Gaston Graf" 14) Re: Jasta 11 Red by LEONARDPeterL@aol.com 15) DSA on fabric by "D Charles" 16) Re: Jasta 11 Red by Jan Vihonen 17) RE: Junkers D1 by "dfernet0" 18) Re: Jasta 11 Red by "John & Allison Cyganowski" 19) RE: Junkers D1 by "dfernet0" 20) Re: New Salmson photos by "TOM PLESHA" 21) RE: Emhar MkIV photos by "dfernet0" 22) RE: New images online by "dfernet0" 23) RE: DH5 Presentation Markings by "dfernet0" 24) Re: Have a Saint and happy Easter ! by Sharon Henderson 25) 425 vs. 477 - was: RE: Jasta 11 Red by Volker Haeusler 26) Gothas? over London 13 June 1917 by knut.erik.hagen@eunet.no (Knut Erik Hagen) 27) Re: DH5 Presentation Markings by "Lance Krieg" 28) RE: 425 vs. 477 - was: RE: Jasta 11 Red by "Gaston Graf" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:33:07 EDT From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: OTF - Sept 2001 Message-ID: <9e.12fa4e51.280b2743@aol.com> My wife, Jeanne and I, will be there. David Layton ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:35:28 -0700 From: "Ray Boorman" To: Subject: RE: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: I can't believe I'm wading into this. Wasn't at least one of these aircraft (425/17??) factory painted in red or at least rumored to be. On the lamp black being mixed with red to give it some opaqueness. If you think about it, Red is so darn transparent it would have to be mixed with something otherwise you would have to apply more coats and bear a large weight burden. Lamp black was at hand and therefore would make lots of sense. As to the red painted aircraft in the field, as others have said they would be various different shades unless MVR's mechanics had a ready supply of Red to apply from a consistent source. I doubt this was the case. Now jumping firmly back onto the sidelines. What colour was Voss's cowl again??? Ray (nr - The Perfect Vehicle) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:36:26 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: ww1 mailing list Subject: OTF 15/4 Message-ID: <200104150930.f3F9UWc05651@mail.rapidnet.net> I received a message from a fellow in the US that he got his copy of 15/4 via airmail last week, so the rest of us should be getting them soon. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:01:32 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: In a message dated 4/15/01 2:53:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ggraf@vo.lu writes: << Interesting... But was MvRs Dr1 really an overpainted standart streaky camouflage schems, >> part of the Toelle analysis says he's found the undersurface blue and the white cross fields beneath the red in some samples, but from the pieces taken from (presumably)the sides or top, no trace of the streaky green is present- and he throws in that fabric is very bright and almost white. That article is really great reading. It's the kind of stuff that makes WW I Aero so fine. Even is one is not necessarily interested in MvR, this piece is crammed with information about German fabric in general and substances slapped on it. RK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:40:45 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: RE: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: Thanks again for the info! Like such articles are adding to the fascination of modeling, the combined knowlegde of this list certainly add to it as well. btw: The overpainting of the white fields on MvRs Dr1 are documented by the photos taken of the aircraft. I have pictures where one can see clearly how the white field on the right side of the fuselage was not completely overpainted yet as the picture was taken. cheers Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > In a message dated 4/15/01 2:53:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ggraf@vo.lu > writes: > > << Interesting... But was MvRs Dr1 really an overpainted standart streaky > camouflage schems, >> > > part of the Toelle analysis says he's found the undersurface blue and the > white cross fields beneath the red in some samples, but from the > pieces taken > from (presumably)the sides or top, no trace of the streaky green > is present- > and he throws in that fabric is very bright and almost white. > That article is really great reading. It's the kind of stuff that > makes WW I > Aero so fine. Even is one is not necessarily interested in MvR, > this piece is > crammed with information about German fabric in general and substances > slapped on it. > RK > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:11:50 +0100 From: "Nigel Rayner" To: Subject: RE: Emhar MkIV photos, also pastels and Bovington Message-ID: <000201c0c5df$eccb4fe0$983bedc1@w1o0t3> Jon asked, regarding Cam's nice Emhar MkIV > Looks Great Cam, one question though, did you seal the pastels or > leave them > till last after you sealed and dull coated? Thanks for sharing. Compliments to Cam - very nice Mk IV. Jon, regarding pastels, there's a couple of ways you can use them. If you put them on after varnishing as you get nice variations in tone between the pastels and the varnish (this works well on planes with a satin finish for things like water staining). If you put them on before varnishing, this can work well for oil staining and similar, as the pastels mix into the varnish. If you apply pastels after varnishing, it does mean you can't handle the model much. On a Mk IV related point, I visited the Bovington tank museum in the UK last week with my son and father-in-law (an ex-tanker himself). This is an amazing place if you are into ground pounders, plenty of OT and ot content. They have Little Willy, an FT17, a Whippet and (I think) four variants of MkIV and other types (didn't have much time to take notes). The MkIV is in working order (but there were no outdoor displays due to our terrible foot and mouth problems) - apparently it was renovated in WWII by an enterprising young tanker who decided it could be used to defend Portsmouth if the Germans invaded (!), and has been kept in working order ever since. However, we got to sit inside it while trying on genuine tanker's helmets and masks. Very atmospheric, talking of which around 50% of tanker casualties were due to carbon monoxide/dioxide poisoning due to poor ventilation of exhaust gases (it was not known that these gases were poisonous). So if you want to et up close with some real WWI ground pounders, I thoroughly recommend Bovington if you haven't been there. Also tons of great stuff from all other periods, including a Panther, Tiger, KV1, T34 etc etc. For our friends outside the UK, al the more reason to come and visit us here. Cheers, Nigel (who's been lurking due to pressures of work) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:47:03 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Emhar MkIV photos, also pastels and Bovington Message-ID: <200104151139.f3FBdnc09568@mail.rapidnet.net> Nigel, Did you happen to get any photos of the interior of the Mk.IV? Or the others? Bob > On a Mk IV related point, I visited the Bovington tank museum in the UK last > week with my son and father-in-law (an ex-tanker himself). This is an > amazing place if you are into ground pounders, plenty of OT and ot content. > They have Little Willy, an FT17, a Whippet and (I think) four variants of > MkIV and other types (didn't have much time to take notes). The MkIV is in > working order (but there were no outdoor displays due to our terrible foot > and mouth problems) - apparently it was renovated in WWII by an enterprising > young tanker who decided it could be used to defend Portsmouth if the > Germans invaded (!), and has been kept in working order ever since. However, > we got to sit inside it while trying on genuine tanker's helmets and masks. > Very atmospheric, talking of which around 50% of tanker casualties were due > to carbon monoxide/dioxide poisoning due to poor ventilation of exhaust > gases (it was not known that these gases were poisonous). > Cheers, > > Nigel > > (who's been lurking due to pressures of work) > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:48:17 -0700 From: "David Calhoun" To: Subject: Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals Message-ID: <004801c0c628$13cf0620$0de23ccc@oemcomputer> Hi Otis, Do they have rib tapes in the lozenge colors, or just blue & pink? Dave Calhoun ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:59:50 -0400 From: "Brad & Merville" To: Subject: Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals Message-ID: <002801c0c610$8ce702a0$e6885ad1@default> I hope Otis doesn't mind if I answer this one as I happen to have the decals in front of me. The tapes are just blue and pink. Not too bright. Nicely muted. This is the best looking lozenge I've seen. I haven't used it yet so I can't attest to it's adhering properties. Brad -----Original Message----- From: David Calhoun To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Sunday, April 15, 2001 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals >Hi Otis, >Do they have rib tapes in the lozenge colors, or just blue & pink? >Dave Calhoun > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:14:12 -0700 From: "David Calhoun" To: Subject: Re: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: <008201c0c62b$b2a009e0$0de23ccc@oemcomputer> Hi Steve, It might be appropriate to point out at this time that the Fokker Dr.1 425/17 was painted overall red at the Fokker factory. (per A E Ferko's book Richthofen by Albatros prod.) So this is probably the only aircraft ever near Jasta 11 that had the dark blood red paint! As mentioned before, all of the other jasta 11 aircraft were painted in the field, using available paint, probably highly thinned due to the lack of available red paint. This is probably why all of the Albatrosses had blue undersurfaces, or only the fuselage painted red. And a thin red paint over varnished plywood of an Albatros fuselage would look pretty light in my oppinion. So I would go with a lighter red for all Jasta 11 aircraft except for 425/17, and also make sure that all national insignia are still visable through the coat of red paint. hope this helps. Dave Calhoun ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Jasta 11 Red > > Thanks to all for the help with my question. > > Todd mentioned the color plate in the Harleyford vonRichthofen book as being > painted to match a sample of fabric from MVR's tripe. I hadn't heard that > before, but it was actually what I've been using as a guide because it seems > to look most similar to the fabric sample that I saw. Maybe it mentions that > somewhere in the book, hard to find stuff in those Harleyfords sometimes! > > The red does seem to be a dried blood color and that's how I would best > describe it. What has happened to the fabric samples over time, I don't know. > Perhaps it has gotten a bit darker, etc. For the 1/72 Albatros I'm working, > on I'm going to lighten it a bit anyway. > > Steve > > << From: Todd Hayes > > The color of the cover of the Harleyford "Richthofen" > book was taken from a sample of fabric from 425/17. > >> > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:49:40 -0700 From: "David Calhoun" To: Subject: Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals Message-ID: <00f201c0c630$a6de72e0$0de23ccc@oemcomputer> Thanks Brad. Hopefully someone can do a sheet of decals for 4/c & 5/c rib tapes. I hate having to cut up a perfectly good bolt of lozenge, and trying to get them all the same width is a pain. I have done this on a couple of different types, SSW D.III and Halberstadt CL.II both used strips of the lozenge used for the rib tapes in some cases. Maybe Eagle Strike, Americal/Gryphon or Copperstate can do this? Dave C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad & Merville" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Eagle Srike lozenge decals > I hope Otis doesn't mind if I answer this one as I happen to have the decals > in front of me. The tapes are just blue and pink. Not too bright. Nicely > muted. This is the best looking lozenge I've seen. I haven't used it yet > so I can't attest to it's adhering properties. > > Brad > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:19:41 From: "Jim Landon" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: New Salmson photos Message-ID: Hi all, I have posted 11 new photos on my Salmson website, including some of the camera that I scratch built for the observer's cockpit, and the installed joystick. Go to: http://communities.msn.com/Salmson2A2 You will see that I have numbered my pages "A" through "N" to make it easier to find things. Six of the new photos are on page "J" (My Model, Part 1: Fuselage and observer's cockpit), pictures 40 through 46. I created a new page "K" for photos of the pilot's cockpit interior. The new photos are 4 through 8. Enjoy, Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:30:48 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: David, this seems to be correct. I have a picture of MvR climbing a special version of an Ablratros (Bob knows more about the type). This aircraft is painted overall red, but the red color is not uniform. The wood seems to shine through and the previously overpainted national insignas was outlined in pure white again. btw: regarding a previous discussion about tire colors, they are looking very grey. Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de This > is probably why all of the Albatrosses had blue undersurfaces, or only the > fuselage painted red. And a thin red paint over varnished plywood of an > Albatros fuselage would look pretty light in my oppinion. So I would go > with a lighter red for all Jasta 11 aircraft except for 425/17, and also > make sure that all national insignia are still visable through the coat of > red paint. > hope this helps. > Dave Calhoun ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:03:11 EDT From: LEONARDPeterL@aol.com To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: In a message dated 16/04/01 02:14:45 GMT Daylight Time, dcalhoun01@snet.net writes: << It might be appropriate to point out at this time that the Fokker Dr.1 425/17 was painted overall red at the Fokker factory >> I read that too and agree that the source is virtually unimpeachable. But the same source also points to various paint dribbles and patches to help confirm that the same aircraft appears in different photo's. Somehow that doesn't fit with a carefully executed factory paint job. IMHO Peter L ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:58:06 +1000 From: "D Charles" To: Subject: DSA on fabric Message-ID: <000201c0c659$1e5eeb60$2e29d7d2@Charls> Did he say if the rib tapes had frayed edges, pinked edges, or none of the above? David >He's a wonderful guy, and > his knowledge is frighteningly encyclopedic. A relatively innocent question > about how lozenge fabric was applied resulted in me (very happily) listening > to him for an hour explain in detail how lozenge fabric was stitched to the > wings, including descriptions of the thread, the needles, the stitching > pattern, and of course a ten minute exposition on the differences in > application procedure between Fokker, OAW, and Albatros... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:34:16 +0300 From: Jan Vihonen To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: <3ADAD8B8.CA5C9AAF@helsinki.fi> > << It might be appropriate to point out at this time that the Fokker Dr.1 > 425/17 was painted overall red at the Fokker factory >> > > I read that too and agree that the source is virtually unimpeachable. But the > same source also points to various paint dribbles and patches to help confirm > that the same aircraft appears in different photo's. Somehow that doesn't fit > with a carefully executed factory paint job. > FWIW, Alex Imrie in his book The Fokker Triplane says: "Contrary to popular belief, Richthofen did not fly special machines. His triplanes were standard production aircraft and were not equipped in any particular way for his use. He was much too fine a leader of fighting airmen to use his rank or position to obtain weapons that were superior to those that his men used. The aeroplanes were shipped from the factory, as were all other Fokker Dr I triplanes, in the basic Fokker camouflage scheme adopted for the type and only received the red colouring associated with Richthofen when they came on the strength of his frontline fighting formation, Jagdstaffel 11, to which component of Jagdgeschwader I Richthofen understandably attached himself." Granted, Imries book is almost ten years old and new information may have surfaced, of which I am not aware. If you have more recent/reliable information, could you cite it for the benefit of us all. Jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:59:01 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: Junkers D1 Message-ID: <026d01c0c66c$a0fbd480$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Hi Dale! Sorry for the delay in answering. I was out of the office from the thursday until today. How was your Easter? I had plenty of chocolate, but my joy was a bit damped last saturday night because my car was towed when I was away. I recovered it, but it was quite a night! Nope, I haven't received the mail yet, as the postman has been a bit behind with deliveries these days... But it'll be here in no time, I guess! Regards D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale Sebring To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Junkers D1 > > > > > If no one else wants it I'll try to get it. I'm Stahltaube! > yiiiiipppeeee!!! > > D. > > > > Hey D, have you received any goodies in the snail mail yet? > > Dale > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:49:13 -0400 From: "John & Allison Cyganowski" To: Subject: Re: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: <000b01c0c66b$43147b70$9b39183f@cyrixp166> Hi Jan, I think that for the most part what Imrie says is true. The tripes that he flew appear to be standard production machines with 2 exceptions. 102/17 was the #2 prototype. It (& its stable mate 103/17) was different from the other triplanes in both configuration and apparently coloring. The current thinking is that 425/17 was a presentation aircraft and was painted red at the factory without the famous streaking. I have heard speculation that 477/17 may have been experimentally covered in silk to see if the reduction in weight would improve performance. I am fascinated by 477/17. MvR scored most of his tripe victories in this ship. I wonder if Durkota's profile of it on his Richthofen poster is accurate? Regards, John Cyg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jan Vihonen To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Jasta 11 Red > ] > FWIW, Alex Imrie in his book The Fokker Triplane says: "Contrary to > popular belief, Richthofen did not fly special machines. His triplanes > were standard production aircraft and were not equipped in any > particular way for his use. He was much too fine a leader of fighting > airmen to use his rank or position to obtain weapons that were superior > to those that his men used. The aeroplanes were shipped from the > factory, as were all other Fokker Dr I triplanes, in the basic Fokker > camouflage scheme adopted for the type and only received the red > colouring associated with Richthofen when they came on the strength of > his frontline fighting formation, Jagdstaffel 11, to which component of > Jagdgeschwader I Richthofen understandably attached himself." > > Granted, Imries book is almost ten years old and new information may > have surfaced, of which I am not aware. If you have more recent/reliable > information, could you cite it for the benefit of us all. > > Jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:03:49 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: Junkers D1 Message-ID: <028901c0c66d$4c2b1280$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Oops! Sorry. That last one was supposed to go off list. D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:10:04 -0400 From: "TOM PLESHA" To: Subject: Re: New Salmson photos Message-ID: <001a01c0c66e$2c250620$48434c0c@tom> Hi Jim- I started looking at your site again, before I left this morning, WOW, I'll have to go back to it later, there is just to much to see. Its just great. thanks for sharing Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Landon" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 12:24 AM Subject: New Salmson photos > Hi all, > > I have posted 11 new photos on my Salmson website, including some of the > camera that I scratch built for the observer's cockpit, and the installed > joystick. > > Go to: http://communities.msn.com/Salmson2A2 > > You will see that I have numbered my pages "A" through "N" to make it easier > to find things. > > Six of the new photos are on page "J" (My Model, Part 1: Fuselage and > observer's cockpit), pictures 40 through 46. > > I created a new page "K" for photos of the pilot's cockpit interior. The > new photos are 4 through 8. > > Enjoy, > Jim > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:12:43 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: Emhar MkIV photos Message-ID: <037b01c0c66e$8fb0ba40$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Ah that's a great model tank! I love the red on the triplane too. Ain't red the best colour for a dreidecker. D. ----- Original Message ----- From: cameron rile To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:50 PM Subject: Emhar MkIV photos > > Some photos of the Emhar MkIV finished weathered and looking like it > had been dragged through a field of Bathurst Burrs backwards; > > http://members.nbci.com/artattack/scale.htm > > Thanks to everyone who answered my queries on dry brushing. This was > an extremely fun build. > > > > > cam > AFC - http://members.nbci.com/pointcook/ > > ( Go Pittsburgh Penguins and Go Edmonton Oilers! Fingers Xed it is > the Stanely Cup Final!!! ) > > > ________________________________________ > Get your email at > http://www.prontomail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:14:04 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: New images online Message-ID: <038b01c0c66e$bda6c7a0$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> That Nieuport 28 is a great inspiration! Excellent Neil! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Bittner To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 2:20 PM Subject: New images online > Sorry it took so long, Neil, but I finally posted images of three of > Neil's excellent models on the site. > > I still have one more modeler's images to move up - hopefully soon, but > time will tell... > > > Matt Bittner > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:16:11 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: DH5 Presentation Markings Message-ID: <039701c0c66f$07712920$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Andrei wrote: > D., > See my comments to Steve... there is some question about this marking now! > Until one of us sees a clear photo, though, I'm leaning toward Bruce's > comments. Yes, I got the DH5 out of the dungeon yesterday and I see what's we had been discussing. Well, I KNOW that there should have been a colorful DH5 somewhere sometime! D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Sharon Henderson To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Have a Saint and happy Easter ! Message-ID: <20010416125019.91010.qmail@web9804.mail.yahoo.com> :-) Actually mine was predictably busy -- services all the previous night, several days before as well, and then up at 6:30 AM on Sunday, then going all day. Whew! Busy, but wonderful fun -- I *love* Easter!! :-) And my Easter basket contained on-topic fun as well: I got a biplane-shaped candy holder with Snoopy, from my son, and a 1:72 scale Tripe from the Spouse. I think he has higher hopes for my eyesight and hand steadiness than I do... ;-) Hope you all had a grand Easter, a blessed Passover, a wonderful Ostara, and a fantastic Spring! :-) sharon > Just to wish a really Saint and happy Easter to > all of you ! > > Alberto Casirati __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:59:37 +0700 From: Volker Haeusler To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: 425 vs. 477 - was: RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: John said: "I think that for the most part what Imrie says is true. The tripes that he flew appear to be standard production machines with 2 exceptions. 102/17 was the #2 prototype. It (& its stable mate 103/17) was different from the other triplanes in both configuration and apparently coloring. The current thinking is that 425/17 was a presentation aircraft and was painted red at the factory without the famous streaking. I have heard speculation that 477/17 may have been experimentally covered in silk to see if the reduction in weight would improve performance. I am fascinated by 477/17. MvR scored most of his tripe victories in this ship. I wonder if Durkota's profile of it on his Richthofen poster is accurate? Regards, John Cyg." There is a number of open questions surrounding Richthofen´s tripes. I always thought things are rather clear, but some of the recent findings (or theories)are quite strange: On one hand, Richthofen obviously used 127/17, 152/17 and 477/17 quite regularly in March and April 1918 (scoring victories no 64 to 78 in these three machines). No proven use of 425/17 before April 11, 1918 (nothing conclusive, but not a single victory in it, and not a single photograph). 425/17 was accepted January 8, 1918 more than three months before the first proven use. Strange thing, if this was a special presentation machine for Richthofen. However, even stranger is a remark from Dan-San Abbott on "the other" WW I list recently, where (if I understood this correctly - it was a rather complicated statement) he suggests that the photos showing the all red triplane with the strange "inverted V" sign below the cockpit (right side) *actually is 477/17* - the plane John mentioned as one using silk covering (identified as such already in the famous Grosz/Ferko article on the Dr I in Air Enthusiast Quarterly 8). I have not understood completely how he arrived at that conclusion, but it would make 477/17 a much more probable presentation aircraft (intensive use by Richthofen, silk covering). This might actually explain the "clean look" of this aircraft and the analysis of 425/17´s fabric (where the uneven application of the red colour does not support a factory finish). Then again, there is a combat report of 477/17 describing red wings only, and the plain (unstreaked) fabric of 425/17... Volker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:23:05 +0200 (CEST) From: knut.erik.hagen@eunet.no (Knut Erik Hagen) To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Gothas? over London 13 June 1917 Message-ID: <200104161423.QAA80873@mail-relay.eunet.no> Hei, I would like to challenge the combined knowledge of this list again... Norwegian pilot Tryggve Gran serving with 39. HD Squadron RFC attacked a twin engined bomber near Colchester on the 13th June 1917. He claimed to have engaged a formation consisting of four German twin engined bombers with pusher propellers and a crew of three. Gran concentrated his fire on the last aircraft in the formation and hit the tail gunner who fell over his gun. Return fire from the formation hit his BE 12 #6488 and he landed at Rochford with holes in wings and engine. The British aircraft and airmen trying to stop the German aircraft are described in Putnams "The Air Defence of Britain 1914-18". But, the book just state that the attacking force consisted of 20 Gothas and has a picture of Gotha G.IV/660/16 which was lost a raid the week before. Are there any sources as to which German units that took part, if there were just Gothas and not a mixed formations and were there any casualties / wounded gunners reported among the returning aircraft? Would be interesting to tie the action to the correct aircraft and see if Grans claim could be confirmed. With Gotha kits coming in both scales, I consider modelling the two aircraft as a representation of the first battle of Britain Eders Knut Erik ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:52:42 -0500 From: "Lance Krieg" To: Subject: Re: DH5 Presentation Markings Message-ID: Andre and others wonder about these, and opine: "Until one of us sees a clear photo, though, I'm leaning toward Bruce's comments." IIRC, Cross and Cockade International reprinted the registry of presentation aircraft some years back, which ought to help identify the group better than an unclear photo. I've been snoozing throough this thread, but if someone will re-post the aircraft serial, I'll look up the presenting authority. Sorry for my inattention... Lance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:57:44 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: RE: 425 vs. 477 - was: RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: > > On one hand, Richthofen obviously used 127/17, 152/17 and 477/17 quite > regularly in March and April 1918 (scoring victories no 64 to 78 in these > three machines). No proven use of 425/17 before April 11, 1918 (nothing > conclusive, but not a single victory in it, and not a single photograph). > 425/17 was accepted January 8, 1918 more than three months before > the first > proven use. Strange thing, if this was a special presentation machine for > Richthofen. > Dale M. Titler shows two pictures of what you decsribe as 477/17 in his book "the day the Red Baron died". The pictures are not depicted as showing 477/17 but only mention that this aircraft was not the one MvR was shot down with. Also the descrition reads it was entirely red and the pictures was discovered "only recently" - the book was printed in 1970. The aircraft appears in a very clean finish and no streaks or uneven covering of the red paint is visible. The reversed "V" however is clearly visible, but does not appear in a differnt color than Red. Like there are a few more of such "scratches" visible and because the "V" is not really looking like a handwritten or printed letter, the conclusion lies near to me that it maybe was just a scratch in the paint. The overall finish of the paint appears in a neat silky gloss - if you sightly scratch accross such a surface, the paint turns matte at that place. Also there is a slight scratch visible on the cowling, where the metal shines through. Scratches may have happened as mechanics did maintenance on the aircraft. The wings do not show the typical rubbermade staking pads. Jörg Armin Kranzhoff suggests in his book "Fokker Dr.1 - Flugzeuge die Geschichte machten" that MvR flew 425/17 on April 21 because 477/17 was actually undergoing maintenance but this is only specualtive. It may have been the case - but there is no known evidence (not known to me). This book contains a whole lot of errors, but the quality of the pictures is in most cases very good. As for 152/17, I have a picture in Kranzhoffs book where one can clearly see the uneven red color of the fuselage. In the book "Mein Kriegstagebuch" by MvRs mother there is a portrait included with Manfred standing close to a triplane which appears to have a red front part of the fuselage but clear, possibly light blue undersurfaces and wheel struts. Also the "fourth wing" between the wheels as well as the wheel covers are of the same color. I will setup a page with pictures of MvRs aircraft so everybody can see what I am talking about. btw: Maybe the most realistic replica of MvRs 425/17 is the one on display at the German musuem in Munich? The only thing that's wrong is the Clerget engine fitted to it but the red color is much darker than the color of other bright red replicas and seems to come very close to the tone of the b/w pictures of the original aircraft. Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 3282 **********************