WWI Digest 3281 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red by "Gaston Graf" 2) Korean Shopping - Group Purchase? by Brent Theobald 3) RE: Synchronizers (was Re: The errors in the book : "Knights of the by "Gaston Graf" 4) RE: Jasta 11 Red by Brent Theobald 5) RE: Jasta 11 Red by "Gaston Graf" 6) Re: A-Model katalog by Witold Kozakiewicz 7) Re: Emhar MkIV photos by "cameron rile" 8) OTF - Sept 2001 by "John & Allison Cyganowski" 9) Re: Korean Shopping - Group Purchase? by Ernest Thomas 10) Re: Bargain books by Steve Cox 11) Re: DH5 Markings by Steve Cox 12) RE: The errors in the book by Volker Haeusler 13) Re: Synchronizers (was Re: The errors in the book : "Knights of the by "Allen H Besser" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:49:38 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: the finish of 425/17 was RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: Interesting... But was MvRs Dr1 really an overpainted standart streaky camouflage schems, or was it made for him personally? I have read descriptions about the wreck of 425/17, saying it was more carefully assembled and better finished than the average Dr.1 of the serial production. Also it is said that 425/17 was equipped with a more powerful engine than the standart engine. Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > > Some years ago I did carry out a small scale experiment (Jeez! > How anal does > this make me?) having seen a similar fabric sample close up at > Hendon, which > appeared dark and very much as described in the previous posts. > > I prepared a piece of fabric about 2ft square, fixed it to a > frame and doped > it streaky green according the method outlined in the various > articles I am > sure we have all seen. I also included a small area of black and > white to see > the effect on the national markings. Finally the whole thing was > given a very > thin coat of red. > > To my eye the whole effect was very like the Hendon sample ( > which BTW looked > like a piece of airleron fabric) and I was quite pleased with myself. The > object though was to see what it would look like at a distance . > From about > 50 yards, there was a marked difference, Scarlet is the only word for it. > > This was a decidedly unscientific experiment. The dopes and pigments used > were nothing like the original. But I was as faithful to the colours and > shades as I could be. Even so I reach no conclusion except that I > certainly > would not deride anyone from either the "Scarlet Triplane" or "Blood Red > Fokker" schools of thought. > > no help at all > > Peter L > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 04:55:26 -0500 From: Brent Theobald To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Korean Shopping - Group Purchase? Message-ID: <4B9386E83999D411997100508BAF206A01608F69@stamail.telecom.sna.samsung.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C592.320688C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Gang, I decided to have a day of modeling today. Earlier in the week I ordered some stuff from Roll Models. Try as I might to order everything, but I forgot some paint. After digging around on the Internet I finally found some Korean Modelers. No wait, someone asked about Korean modelers on Hyperscale and received an answer. Nobody answered me when I asked. I guess I don't know the secret handshake. Anyway, I surfed over to this guy's web site and emailed him about finding a decent hobby shop in Seoul. He helped me find a place. It is inside this great big underground shopping mall. Between the mall and the subway I found my old Dungeons and Dragons dungeon mapping skills to come in very handy. It was a very interesting place. They had a few of the usual suspects: Tamiya, Ban-Dai, Testers and Italeri. But man! Half the store was Academy. Another large percentage of the shop was dedicated to resin and vinyl figures from Korean manufacturers. No Verlinden stuff, which was a little frustrating as I decided I needed a cockpit detail set. Getting back to the original story... I trekked to this store searching paint. Did I purchase only paint? Nope! I decided I might need a second project. I rejected anything OT as too fragile. I decided on some 35th scale armor. Lots of pieces that will build into a pretty compact package. I wanted the most bang for the buck so I opted for the Tiger I with full interior. Czech this out: Tiger I, 5 jars of Gunze paint, Tamiya glue and putty = $24 and change. The tank was only $13.85. Stuff made in Korea is cheap here... DUH! So list, I am sorry but I am unable to transport a batch of 35th scale armor home for you. However, if there is any figure from Coree or SOL you would like let me know. I'm probably going to have to go back anyway. I'll pick it up and mail it to you when I get home. I don't think the resin stuff has quite the discount by the way. Certainly cheaper, but the discount is less. I priced the SOL Su-35/37 conversion and it's about $38. Squadron has it for about $48. Not a great savings, but I'll do it if ya'll would like me too. Check out the Squadron web page. They have pictures of most of the SOL and Coree line online. Later! Brent ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C592.320688C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Korean Shopping - Group Purchase?

Hey Gang,

I decided to have a day of modeling today. Earlier in = the week I ordered some stuff from Roll Models. Try as I might to order = everything, but I forgot some paint.

After digging around on the Internet I finally found = some Korean Modelers. No wait, someone asked about Korean modelers on = Hyperscale and received an answer. Nobody answered me when I asked. I = guess I don't know the secret handshake. Anyway, I surfed over to this = guy's web site and emailed him about finding a decent hobby shop in = Seoul.

He helped me find a place. It is inside this great = big underground shopping mall. Between the mall and the subway I found = my old Dungeons and Dragons dungeon mapping skills to come in very = handy.

It was a very interesting place. They had a few of = the usual suspects: Tamiya, Ban-Dai, Testers and Italeri. But man! Half = the store was Academy. Another large percentage of the shop was = dedicated to resin and vinyl figures from Korean manufacturers. No = Verlinden stuff, which was a little frustrating as I decided I needed a = cockpit detail set.

Getting back to the original story... I trekked to = this store searching paint. Did I purchase only paint? Nope! I decided = I might need a second project. I rejected anything OT as too fragile. I = decided on some 35th scale armor. Lots of pieces that will build into a = pretty compact package. I wanted the most bang for the buck so I opted = for the Tiger I with full interior.

Czech this out: Tiger I, 5 jars of Gunze paint, = Tamiya glue and putty =3D $24 and change. The tank was only $13.85. = Stuff made in Korea is cheap here... DUH!

So list, I am sorry but I am unable to transport a = batch of 35th scale armor home for you. However, if there is any figure = from Coree or SOL you would like let me know. I'm probably going to = have to go back anyway. I'll pick it up and mail it to you when I get = home. I don't think the resin stuff has quite the discount by the way. = Certainly cheaper, but the discount is less. I priced the SOL Su-35/37 = conversion and it's about $38. Squadron has it for about $48. Not a = great savings, but I'll do it if ya'll would like me too. Check out the = Squadron web page. They have pictures of most of the SOL and Coree line = online.

Later!

Brent

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C592.320688C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:54:05 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: RE: Synchronizers (was Re: The errors in the book : "Knights of the Message-ID: Thanks a lot, Bob. Does the publisher has a website? I tried www.aero.com and found a very interesting website about general aviation but no WW1 magazine. Trying www.ww1aero.com did not work. Any other sources where I can order the issues? Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > WW1 Aero published an excellent multi-part series on the various > interrupter/synchronizer designs. Its been a couple of years since my > subscription lapsed and I never got around to adding WW1 Aero to > my index of > WW1 journals, so someone else will have to give the particulars on issue > number. > > The Roumanian was Constantinesco, his synchronizing gear was known as the > C.C. gear. All of this is covered in the WW1 Aero series. It has detailed > explanations as well as drawings of all the ideas tried. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 04:59:10 -0500 From: Brent Theobald To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: <4B9386E83999D411997100508BAF206A01608F6A@stamail.telecom.sna.samsung.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C592.B7796FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gaston, I don't have a dictionary handy, but to my mind, gore means more than just blood. Torn flesh, organs and brain matter is gore. OT:Content - Only two weeks before I'm working on Eric's Gotha. Woo hoo! Later! Brent -----Original Message----- From: Gaston Graf [mailto:ggraf@vo.lu] Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 4:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red Altough I believe every word of the experts who say that the color of the samples is very dark it sounds also logical to me that it was still red as it was fresh. Wouldn't eye wittness' have talked about the Dr.1 being DARK red or red brown if it were that dark it is now described as? But all that I know is that MvRs aircraft usually was described as being BRIGHT red. That's for me the main question when I think about building the model. Therefore it sounds more logical to me that the original color was a dark red resembling much of fresh blood, but not a brownish red of dried blood (gore?). Is there a difference for the English speaking folks between dried blood and gore? I wonder. I think the question about the color of MvRs aircraft is as controversial as the question regarding the person who fired the fatal bullet. Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de > -----Original Message----- > From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of > j@prendergast.tc > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 10:41 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red > > > On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:56:12 -0400 (EDT) "Gaston Graf" > wrote: > >I never did any research on the color of MvRs Dr.1 but this explanation > >sounds logical to me, when I look at the pictures of his > aircraft where the > >overall red appears very dark. It certainly was not as bright as > the red of > >a firetruck but still red enough for not being brown. That gives > me the idea > >it maybe was as red as the color of my car, which is called > "Imperial Red" - > >a dark red, almost like blood. > > > > Gaston Graf > >(ggraf@vo.lu) > >Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: > >http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > > >> > >> > >Couldn't agree more re the red being the colour of dried blood. > I have a > sample of the real thing that came originally from a guy who was > from Gunner > Ridgeway's unit. It is only about 1 inch square and under > artificial light it > is far darker than the cloth covering of the Harborough book. > Perhaps this is > the effect of oil varnish darkening the shade over the past 83 > years. Probably > would have been a helluva lot brighter when first applied. Now it > would be close > to either Methuen 11F5 or 6. The inside is natural fabric. > > Jim P > > I was > talking to Dan-San > Abbott about this, and he also had a > >> piece (sold it > >> semi-recently) of fabric from MVR's 425/17. He said if I wanted > >> to match the > >> color, get a white sheet of paper, stick my finger with a pin, > and let a > >> couple drops fall on the paper. Then let it dry. He said the color was > >> basically identical to that. Technically, as I recall, he > >> explained that it > >> was so dark because the dope was clear with a red dye, to which a > >> significant amount of carbon black had been added, such that > you could see > >> the black particles clearly under a magnifying lens. > >> > >> Anyway, that Dan's 2 cents, and I tend to trust him;-) I don't > >> know whether > >> that's an accurate match for the red used by Jasta 11. > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of > >> NodalPoint@aol.com > >> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 3:23 PM > >> To: Multiple recipients of list > >> Subject: Jasta 11 Red > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I'm curious to what paints people are using to model the red > markings on > >> Jasta 11 aircraft. > >> > >> The only examples I've seen is supposed fabric from MvR's tripe in an > >> acrylic > >> cube at several museums. That appeared to me to be almost maroon. > >> Very dark > >> in color. > >> > >> I'm sure this is open to a lot of interpetation but some > opinions would be > >> great. I usually use Model Master acrylics and am wondering what > >> people mix > >> to come up with that shade. > >> > >> I just saw something called Boyd Red, which I believe is a brand > >> of Testors > >> enamel, that seems close to the preserved fabric I have seen. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Steve > > > -- > Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C592.B7796FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Jasta 11 Red

Gaston,

I don't have a dictionary handy, but to my mind, gore = means more than just blood. Torn flesh, organs and brain matter is = gore.

OT:Content - Only two weeks before I'm working on = Eric's Gotha. Woo hoo!

Later!

Brent

-----Original Message-----
From: Gaston Graf [mailto:ggraf@vo.lu]
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 4:04 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red


Altough I believe every word of the experts who say = that the color of the
samples is very dark it sounds also logical to me = that it was still red as
it was fresh. Wouldn't eye wittness' have talked = about the Dr.1 being DARK
red or red brown if it were that dark it is now = described as? But all that I
know is that MvRs aircraft usually was described as = being BRIGHT red. That's
for me the main question when I think about building = the model. Therefore it
sounds more logical to me that the original color = was a dark red resembling
much of fresh blood, but not a brownish red of dried = blood (gore?). Is there
a difference for the English speaking folks between = dried blood and gore? I
wonder.

I think the question about the color of MvRs aircraft = is as controversial as
the question regarding the person who fired the = fatal bullet.

 Gaston Graf
(ggraf@vo.lu)
Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 = "Boelcke" at:
http://www.jastaboelcke.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On = Behalf Of
> j@prendergast.tc
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 10:41 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:56:12 -0400 (EDT) = "Gaston Graf"
> <ggraf@vo.lu> wrote:
> >I never did any research on the color of = MvRs Dr.1 but this explanation
> >sounds logical to me, when I look at the = pictures of his
> aircraft where the
> >overall red appears very dark. It certainly = was not as bright as
> the red of
> >a firetruck but still red enough for not = being brown. That gives
> me the idea
> >it maybe was as red as the color of my car, = which is called
> "Imperial Red" -
> >a dark red, almost like blood.
> >
> > Gaston Graf
> >(ggraf@vo.lu)
> >Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 = "Boelcke" at:
> >http://www.jastaboelcke.de
> >
> >>
> >>
> >Couldn't agree more re the red being the = colour of dried blood.
> I have a
> sample of the real thing that came originally = from a guy who was
> from Gunner
> Ridgeway's unit.  It is only about 1 inch = square and under
> artificial light it
> is far darker than  the cloth covering of = the Harborough book.
> Perhaps this is
> the effect of oil varnish darkening the shade = over the past 83
> years. Probably
> would have been a helluva lot brighter when = first applied. Now it
> would be close
> to either Methuen 11F5 or 6.  The inside = is natural fabric.
>
> Jim P
>          = ;            = ;            = ;            = ;         > I was
> talking to Dan-San
> Abbott about this, and he also had a
> >> piece (sold it
> >> semi-recently) of fabric from MVR's = 425/17. He said if I wanted
> >> to match the
> >> color, get a white sheet of paper, = stick my finger with a pin,
> and let a
> >> couple drops fall on the paper. Then = let it dry. He said the color was
> >> basically identical to that. = Technically, as I recall, he
> >> explained that it
> >> was so dark because the dope was clear = with a red dye, to which a
> >> significant amount of carbon black had = been added, such that
> you could see
> >> the black particles clearly under a = magnifying lens.
> >>
> >> Anyway, that Dan's 2 cents, and I tend = to trust him;-) I don't
> >> know whether
> >> that's an accurate match for the red = used by Jasta 11.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On = Behalf Of
> >> NodalPoint@aol.com
> >> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 3:23 = PM
> >> To: Multiple recipients of list
> >> Subject: Jasta 11 Red
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I'm curious to what paints people are = using to model the red
> markings on
> >> Jasta 11 aircraft.
> >>
> >> The only examples I've seen is = supposed fabric from MvR's tripe in an
> >> acrylic
> >> cube at several museums. That appeared = to me to be almost maroon.
> >> Very dark
> >> in color.
> >>
> >> I'm sure this is open to a lot of = interpetation but some
> opinions would be
> >> great. I usually use Model Master = acrylics and am wondering what
> >> people mix
> >> to come up with that shade.
> >>
> >> I just saw something called Boyd Red, = which I believe is a brand
> >> of Testors
> >> enamel, that seems close to the = preserved fabric I have seen.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Steve
>
>
> --
> Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at = http://Nameplanet.com/?su
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C592.B7796FE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:06:25 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: RE: Jasta 11 Red Message-ID: Hmmmm......... my dictionaries all say it is coagulated blood. No mentionning of other pieces and parts. Why can't we all speak just one language? Luxemburgish would simplify things a lot. ;o) Gaston Graf (ggraf@vo.lu) Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > I don't have a dictionary handy, but to my mind, gore means more than just > blood. Torn flesh, organs and brain matter is gore. > > OT:Content - Only two weeks before I'm working on Eric's Gotha. Woo hoo! > > Later! > > Brent ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:29:48 +0200 From: Witold Kozakiewicz To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: A-Model katalog Message-ID: <3AD9862C.587D8139@bg.am.lodz.pl> Matt Bittner napisa³(a): > I'm amazed at > the level of detail in the Yak-2. I hope Avro 504, Spad A.2 and A.4 would be the same level, definitely "must to have" kits. In fact last friday I bought lates number of Polish magazine, with in-box review of Avro 504. Looks like very good kit. Little heavy sprues but details are ok. -- Witold Kozakiewicz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:53:08 -0400 From: "cameron rile" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Emhar MkIV photos Message-ID: <1B297D0128135D115A660005B80A2E33@cameron.prontomail.com> Thanks for the kind words folks, it is appreciated. Btw it got pointed out to me off list I put the sponsons on upside down rolfmgo. :) Ray writes; >Hey Cam, I thought you were muttering about having problems >dry brushing. Could have fooled me. Very nice Ground Pounder. First round of painting it was in Dark Earth when I streaked it up bad trying to dry brush it. Hence the email to the list. >Oh and Baboons Bum DR1 is that red as a baboons bum, Just making >sure my slang is right ;) lol, it is the NSW equivalent of the Louisianan *&^%$% red. Dont know about Canada but in Australia at Taronga Zoo when a baboon gets excited it's bum goes about the same shade of red as the left eye of a St George Dragons supporter. We all know Saints supporters have one red eye and one white eye right?. Jon writes; >Looks Great Cam, one question though, did you seal the pastels >or leave them till last after you sealed and dull coated? Thanks >for sharing. I did it in the order wash, pastels, dry brushing. I couldnt find any descriptions of a good way to do pastels so I winged it. I made little piles of pastel chalk and then brushed it on. To seal the chalk on I sprayed it with flat or semi-gloss. Alot of the dust got blown off, but a lot also clung to the bits and pieces making the surface colour look non-uniform. cam AFC - http://members.nbci.com/pointcook/ ________________________________________ Get your email at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:58:35 -0400 From: "John & Allison Cyganowski" To: Subject: OTF - Sept 2001 Message-ID: <008401c0c5ab$c8b4de70$eb39183f@cyrixp166> Hi All- I am back. Have we taken a head count of theose who will be attending the OTF convention in San Diego this September? Allison & I will definitely be there. Regards, John Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:10:39 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Korean Shopping - Group Purchase? Message-ID: <3AD99DCF.880CA8AA@bellsouth.net> Brent Theobald wrote: > So list, I am sorry but I am unable to transport a batch of 35th scale armor > home for you. However, if there is any figure from Coree or SOL you would > like let me know. So what kind of prices did they have on the SOL vinyl fantasy figures? E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:29:17 +0100 From: Steve Cox To: Subject: Re: Bargain books Message-ID: The only one I can comment on is McCudden's Flying Fury, which I found a very interesting read, well worth the money. Regards Steve nb =========================================== steve@oldglebe.freeserve.co.uk http://www.oldglebe.freeserve.co.uk/steveshome.html If I didn't spend so much time on line ‹‹ I'd get some models finished ================ > From: "Neil Crawford" > Reply-To: wwi@wwi-models.org > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:48:17 -0400 (EDT) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Bargain books > > I just got the Midland Counties catalogue, in the bargain book section I > found the following OT books: > Above the war fronts - Franks, Grant, Alegi £12.99 > Flying Fury - Mccudden 5.99 > Green balls HP0/400 pilot adventures 4.99 > Over the balkans 1917-19 4.99 > Victoria Cross Alex Revell 9.99 > > These are the ones I'm thinking of getting, is this a good idea, > or should I get some of these instead?: > Barker VC -Wayne Ralph £5.99 > Cloud cuckooland -Penrose 5.99 (ot but > anyway?) > Jasta war chronology -Franks 12.99 > Medal of honour -Durkota 8.99 > RFC communiques 1917-1918 9.99 > Sikorsky S-16 -Mikheyev 7.99 > The sky their battlefield list of air casualties -Henshaw £22.00 > Under the guns of the german aces -Franks,Giblin 9.99 > VC's of WW1 Cooksley 7.99 > > Of course, now I've told you lot, they'll probably be all snapped > up by the time I stop dithering. > /Neil > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:29:17 +0100 From: Steve Cox To: Subject: Re: DH5 Markings Message-ID: I haven't any pictures so I can't comment on the accuracy of the decals, only on what the decal shows. I can't remember what the original gist of this thread was, but there are some pictures of a presentation DH5 from Nigeria Regards Steve nb =========================================== steve@oldglebe.freeserve.co.uk http://www.oldglebe.freeserve.co.uk/steveshome.html If I didn't spend so much time on line ‹‹ I'd get some models finished ================ > From: Andreikor@aol.com > Reply-To: wwi@wwi-models.org > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:02:09 -0400 (EDT) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: DH5 Markings > > Steve wrote: > "Christchurch Old Boys Club", and the identification letter "E" has the > letters "LSA" added to the central bar to make "Elsa"> > > I stand corrected, Steve in that the decals were, indeed, included, but J.M. > Bruce's "De Havilland Aircraft Of WWI", pg. 51, states: "It went to No. 64 > Squadron, aquiring the status of a presentation aircraft and with it the > fuselage inscription 'Christchurch Over Seas Club'." I can't make out the > lettering in the photo myself, but I assume Bruce was looking at an original, > or at least a clearer one. > Cheers, > Andrei > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:12:00 +0700 From: Volker Haeusler To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: RE: The errors in the book Message-ID: Gaston, you said: "Can you please tell me the sources where you got that info from? All that I know is that Lübbe has somewhat stolen die idea from Schneider but Schneider was unable to sue him because Lübbe and the Fokker Company profited from the protection by the German army leaders." Sorry to ask you the same question: Where have *you* this information ("Luebbe has somewhat stolen...") from? I think the proven facts are that: - Schneider was definitely the first to file a patent on a synchronizer - as already said by RK, this patent was somewhat basic (ie, no clear instruction "*how* exactly to do it), definitely needing refinement - he described a basic idea, but no working solution - Without *any* doubt Fokker (and most probably in reality Luebbe, but even *that* is not proven) got the first *working* synchronizer to the front - This synchronizer obviously worked well ("Fokker Scourge") and was in many ways different to the Schneider proposal - There were actually a lot of attempts (also and maybe even more from Euler) to sue Fokker for breaking patents - actually the Nachlass A. Euler in the Bundesarchiv (Coblenz branch) holds the complete file of that attempt. I think the story about Fokker profiting "from protection by the German army leaders" (who actually in person?) is one of those fabricated stories that resurface again and again (very much like the Thulin engine fable). Note that Fokker himself complained (equally unjustified, IMHO) about the unfair treatment he received by the German military (like "all 160 hp engines going to Albatros"). Basically, I do not know a *single* proof/fact that Fokker was protected in any way. If you look on the Euler case, there is not *a single* letter or note stating that anybody tried to influence Euler to drop the case (which anyway had no chance to succeed, as his patent clearly was meant for pusher aircraft, and did not take into consideration synchronization at all). So in total, the only facts that are absolutely clear in my opinion are that Schneider filed the first patent on gun synchronization, the patents were published and available to everybody, and Fokker (or whoever in the Fokker company)finally got a synchronization working. Anything else is *pure speculation*. To complicate things further, there is no real proof that Schneider *ever* got a synchronization working. The famous E 600/15 (of which seemingly only 2 photos have survived) is usually claimed to have synchronization. However, close examination of *original* prints of this aircraft seem to indicate (sorry for that very vague statement - things are really not clear) that the fixed Spandau was *actually angled to bypass the prop*. Volker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:31:02 -0400 From: "Allen H Besser" To: Subject: Re: Synchronizers (was Re: The errors in the book : "Knights of the Message-ID: <003801c0c5c1$163e1020$685a143f@compaq-computer> You can try: http://www.aviation-history.com/ww1aero.htm I found this by checking some links listings. What happened was I found them while just surfing the net. I was fascinated and printed up the subscription form without saving the site (I was at work at the time). This is NOT the site I found the other day. I thought the other one had back issues (could be wrong). It is the same magazine. I had to mail the printed form off to Poughkeepsie (they don't accept subscriptions over the net) so I don't have anything written with the web address on it. If I find anything else I'll advise you. Al Besser -----Original Message----- From: Gaston Graf To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Sunday, April 15, 2001 6:01 AM Subject: RE: Synchronizers (was Re: The errors in the book : "Knights of the >Thanks a lot, Bob. Does the publisher has a website? I tried www.aero.com >and found a very interesting website about general aviation but no WW1 >magazine. Trying www.ww1aero.com did not work. Any other sources where I can >order the issues? > > Gaston Graf >(ggraf@vo.lu) >Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: >http://www.jastaboelcke.de > >> >> WW1 Aero published an excellent multi-part series on the various >> interrupter/synchronizer designs. Its been a couple of years since my >> subscription lapsed and I never got around to adding WW1 Aero to >> my index of >> WW1 journals, so someone else will have to give the particulars on issue >> number. >> >> The Roumanian was Constantinesco, his synchronizing gear was known as the >> C.C. gear. All of this is covered in the WW1 Aero series. It has detailed >> explanations as well as drawings of all the ideas tried. > > ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 3281 **********************