Blue Print Models?

WWI Digest 3266 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Excellent Alberto Casirati news by "Matt Bittner" 2) Blue Print Models? by Brent Theobald 3) RE: A day of modelling by "dfernet0" 4) RE: Excellent Alberto Casirati news by "dfernet0" 5) RE: The Anniston Contest by "dfernet0" 6) RE: The Anniston Contest by Brent Theobald 7) Re: Excellent Alberto Casirati news by Jan Vihonen 8) SIA article in WS by Crawford Neil 9) RE: The Anniston Contest by "dfernet0" 10) RE: SIA article in WS by "dfernet0" 11) Anodize was SIA article in WS by Brent Theobald 12) Re: A day of modelling by Dennis Ugulano 13) Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII by "Hans Trauner" 14) Alberto's HD.1 on wwi page. by Witold Kozakiewicz 15) RE: Anodize was SIA article in WS by Crawford Neil 16) Re: Excellent Alberto Casirati news by Allan Wright 17) RE: Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII by Crawford Neil 18) Dale Beamish by "Harris, Mack" 19) Re: Blue Print Models? by "Courtney Allen" 20) RE: Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII by Volker Haeusler 21) Re: Excellent Alberto Casirati news by "Brian Nicklas" 22) Re: Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII by "Hans Trauner" 23) RE: Anodize was SIA article in WS by Brent Theobald ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 05:42:49 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: "wwi@wwi-models.org" Subject: Excellent Alberto Casirati news Message-ID: <200104091040.DAA04557@swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Just wanted to tell the list that Alberto has been officially appointed as Honorary Keeper of the Aviation Department of the Bergamo Historical Museum. Congratulations Alberto!!! Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:08:08 -0500 From: Brent Theobald To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Blue Print Models? Message-ID: <4B9386E83999D411997100508BAF206A01608F1A@stamail.telecom.sna.samsung.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E5.5BBE5D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Howdy! Has anyone heard from this company? This is the company that purchased Marcos Miniatures. I wrote them a while back and haven't heard from them. Later! Brent ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E5.5BBE5D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blue Print Models?

Howdy!

Has anyone heard from this company? This is the = company that purchased Marcos Miniatures. I wrote them a while back and = haven't heard from them.

Later!

Brent

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E5.5BBE5D20-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:21:14 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: A day of modelling Message-ID: <018301c0c0e7$3097b180$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Mmmmmhhhh....... quite a weekend in listland, huh? I just can say that we have both Mac and PCs here at the office.... each type has its advantages. We try to get the best of them for each type of work, but the main disadvantage of both is that we can't net the computers to play games! Last weekend I did build a model.... but I tried to get rid of my AMS and relying on the sheer impulse after reading a "Full Circle" vivid chapter, I got the Academy kit of a "Sopwith" of a later generation. More clues? It's said to be the monoplane version of the Fury biplane (so two wings were indirectly involved) More? It's a fabric covered machine! I decided to do it as a strictly OOB build, and being a good kit by modern standards is a pleasure to build and not a great effort trying not to be anal, and working only with the meagre references I had on my library. I had great fun and already painted interiors and closed the fuselage, and much of the smaller pieces painted and ready to be assembled. At this pace, I'll finish a whole model in less than a week Record timing! D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:22:01 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: Excellent Alberto Casirati news Message-ID: <018901c0c0e7$4caf2920$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> He he he Now I'll nag him asking for minute details of the Balilla! ;-) D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Bittner To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Excellent Alberto Casirati news > Just wanted to tell the list that Alberto has been officially appointed > as Honorary Keeper of the Aviation Department of the Bergamo Historical > Museum. Congratulations Alberto!!! > > > Matt Bittner > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:25:18 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: The Anniston Contest Message-ID: <01f901c0c0e7$c1b951a0$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Congratulations Dave! Seems like you were harvesting medals and purchases. You deserve the prizes and next time I'm sure that you'll get the first with your "Aurora" ! ;-) The only dissapointment about your message is that when I read the title, i tought that you would be talking about Jennifer... C'est la vie! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: DAVID BURKE To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: The Anniston Contest > Hey Y'all, > > Yesterday was the Anniston IPMS contest. I picked up some awards, like > 2 Second Place and a Third. One of the Second Place awards was for my > Goering Fokker D.VII. Apparently I also won a Theme Award that I didn't > know was being offered (Best Civil War Subject) for a Confederate Sergeant > figure. > > However, what I am happiest with is that I found, and picked up, 2 packs > of AeroMaster wood-grain decals, the 'Fighting Camels Pt.2' sheet, and best > of all - the big FMP IRAS book for $40!! What a deal! Oh, and a bunch of > ot F-105 and MiG-21 stuff (I really like both types - so what!) > > I had a good time talking to Eli Geher, and also schlepped my Gotha > around for compliments. Lots of guys were telling me that they were > impressed with what I had done to the old Aurora kit!! > > > Later > > > DB > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:34:43 -0500 From: Brent Theobald To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: The Anniston Contest Message-ID: <4B9386E83999D411997100508BAF206A01608F1C@stamail.telecom.sna.samsung.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E9.125383F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Howdy! Diego says: The only dissapointment about your message is that when I read the title, i tought that you would be talking about Jennifer... I say: Brad won that one. Not that I didn't want to enter... My wife always said she'd understand if I dumped her for Jennifer. Later! Brent ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E9.125383F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: The Anniston Contest

Howdy!

Diego says:
The only dissapointment about your message is that = when I read the title, i tought that you would be talking about = Jennifer...

I say:
Brad won that one. Not that I didn't want to = enter... My wife always said she'd understand if I dumped her for = Jennifer.

Later!

Brent

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E9.125383F0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:32:07 +0300 From: Jan Vihonen To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Excellent Alberto Casirati news Message-ID: <3AD19DB7.79CEC9CB@helsinki.fi> Now, that is a great news. My heartfelt congratulations to you, Alberto. Jan > Just wanted to tell the list that Alberto has been officially appointed > as Honorary Keeper of the Aviation Department of the Bergamo Historical > Museum. Congratulations Alberto!!! > > Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:39:58 +0200 From: Crawford Neil To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: SIA article in WS Message-ID: I was just reading the excellent piece by Alberto about SIA 2-seaters in the latest copy of Windsock. Alberto thinks that the front cowlings were painted light grey, and the struts and other metalwork was painted dark grey. Light grey cowling because there are no metallic reflections. I got to wondering why they should use two different shades of grey? If I had been the workman painting that plane, nothing would have got me to change colours, clean my paintbrush etc. Also why bother painting the cowling anyway, alumunium was regarded as a wonder material that didn't rust, why paint it? Aluminium goes dull grey very quickly, and then looks just like those photos. Steve Rutland was talking about anodising, I know you don't anodise aluminium, I think it's mild steel that is anodised, but maybe they used a similar process for dulling brand new aluminium? I'm just blathering, really all I want to do is show Alberto, that we really read his, articles, and think about them. Opinions anyone? /Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:39:36 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: The Anniston Contest Message-ID: <036c01c0c0e9$c1a67b00$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> ----- Original Message ----- From: Brent Theobald > Diego says: > The only dissapointment about your message is that when I read the title, i > tought that you would be talking about Jennifer... > > I say: > Brad won that one. Not that I didn't want to enter... My wife always said > she'd understand if I dumped her for Jennifer. Brad Gossen??!!!! Wow! I admire this canadian mountie more and more each time! ;-) D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:48:33 -0300 From: "dfernet0" To: Subject: RE: SIA article in WS Message-ID: <038601c0c0eb$01770a00$4640a8c0@ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> Neil wrote: > I got to > wondering why they should use two different shades of grey? > If I had been the workman painting that plane, nothing would > have got me to change colours, clean my paintbrush etc. Maybe the cowling parts and the struts were manufactured in different places. I've seen some steel airfoil tubes used on a engine stand wich I guess that were salvaged from an italian plane. The colour was black and it looked as it was a baked enamel and very old indeed. > Also why bother painting the cowling anyway, alumunium was > regarded as a wonder material that didn't rust, why paint it? However most aluminium parts on OT aircraft were painted or enamelled. > all I want to do is show Alberto, that we really read his, > articles, and think about them. Opinions anyone? I still haven't the latest WS and I'm looking forward to see the article. D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:54:38 -0500 From: Brent Theobald To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: Anodize was SIA article in WS Message-ID: <4B9386E83999D411997100508BAF206A01608F1F@stamail.telecom.sna.samsung.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0EB.DAE8A0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Neil, We anodize aluminum all the time. It comes in clear as well as different colors. It is very common as is alodine and chromate finishes. I don't know when these finishes were first used but I'd guess after WWII judging by the aircraft I've seen. Most aircraft I've seen from that period and earlier were protected with paint. Also you may be thinking of galvanizing. It's done to iron and steel. As for painting an aluminum cowl? Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps to aid in camouflage or anti-glare? Later! Brent -----Original Message----- From: Crawford Neil [mailto:Neil.Crawford@volvo.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: SIA article in WS I was just reading the excellent piece by Alberto about SIA 2-seaters in the latest copy of Windsock. Alberto thinks that the front cowlings were painted light grey, and the struts and other metalwork was painted dark grey. Light grey cowling because there are no metallic reflections. I got to wondering why they should use two different shades of grey? If I had been the workman painting that plane, nothing would have got me to change colours, clean my paintbrush etc. Also why bother painting the cowling anyway, alumunium was regarded as a wonder material that didn't rust, why paint it? Aluminium goes dull grey very quickly, and then looks just like those photos. Steve Rutland was talking about anodising, I know you don't anodise aluminium, I think it's mild steel that is anodised, but maybe they used a similar process for dulling brand new aluminium? I'm just blathering, really all I want to do is show Alberto, that we really read his, articles, and think about them. Opinions anyone? /Neil ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0EB.DAE8A0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anodize was SIA article in WS

Hey Neil,

We anodize aluminum all the time. It comes in clear = as well as different colors. It is very common as is alodine and = chromate finishes. I don't know when these finishes were first used but = I'd guess after WWII judging by the aircraft I've seen. Most aircraft = I've seen from that period and earlier were protected with = paint.

Also you may be thinking of galvanizing. It's done to = iron and steel.

As for painting an aluminum cowl? Your guess is as = good as mine. Perhaps to aid in camouflage or anti-glare?

Later!

Brent

-----Original Message-----
From: Crawford Neil [mailto:Neil.Crawford@volvo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:43 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: SIA article in WS

I was just reading the excellent piece by Alberto = about SIA
2-seaters in the latest copy of Windsock. = Alberto thinks
that the front cowlings were painted light grey, and = the
struts and other metalwork was painted dark grey. = Light grey
cowling because there are no metallic reflections. I = got to
wondering why they should use two different shades = of grey?
If I had been the workman painting that plane, = nothing would
have got me to change colours, clean my paintbrush = etc.
Also why bother painting the cowling anyway, = alumunium was
regarded as a wonder material that didn't rust, why = paint it?
Aluminium goes dull grey very quickly, and then = looks just
like those photos. Steve Rutland was talking about = anodising,
I know you don't anodise aluminium, I think it's = mild steel
that is anodised, but maybe they used a similar = process for
dulling brand new aluminium? I'm just blathering, = really
all I want to do is show Alberto, that we really = read his,
articles, and think about them. Opinions = anyone?
/Neil

Howdy! >

> >

Has anyone heard from this company? This is the = > company that purchased Marcos Miniatures. I wrote them a while back and = > haven't heard from them.

> >

Later! >

> >

Brent >

> > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0E5.5BBE5D20-- > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:29:41 +0700 From: Volker Haeusler To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: RE: Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII Message-ID: Neil really raised an interesting question. Hans has already pointed to the engine question. To this I would add: During my time at university I had a chance to glance through older (ie, around WW I, but actually starting in the 1890ies) issues of the Newspaper of the "Verein Deutscher Ingenieure" (Society of German Engineers). If you look close on publications like these, a number of interesting facts emerge: 1. This starts with the basic facts that we judge some things with perceptions we have today. The quality associated to German products today was NOT a trademark at that time. Note that the now famous "Made in Germany" trademark was originally invented to show that these products are of INFERIOR quality (shades of the "Made in Hongkong" of my early years). So the Germans have actually NOT "always excelled in quality". 2. This inferiority manifested itself especially in the aero engine field. Note how Germany had to stick to the 6 in row concept, thought obsolete in by the allies (there was actually a question in the standard questionnaire for captured German flyers, were the British enquired wether there are any "modern" engines coming, like V 8�s or air cooled radials). Germany had to copy both the Hispano Suiza concept (but never got it going), the Le Rhone rotary and the geared engine concept. The overcompressed BMW and Daimler engines are actually the exception to the rule. No over-engineering here, just inferior technology. 3. Therefore Germany had to resort to compete on quality. The means for this was aerodynamics (or what was then thought to be aerodynamics). The Walfisch structure, the Wickelrumpf technology etc. are all products of this drive. And if you look on the LFG/Pfalz Wickelrumpf, it was definitely more difficult to manufacture (looking on all steps, including the manufacture of the veneer strip etc.). Actually, an interesting means of this drive were Idflieg directives. If you look close to German fighter development cycles, you can see some highly interesting general trends, like the "Nieuport wing", the triplane cycle, the return of the single bay, twin spar biplane at the end of 1917 (including some more or less direct SPAD copies), the Verspannungslos construction, finally the parasol wing and the increase of wing aspect ratio. Idflieg acted as a broker of information and general guide over there, similar to the concept of TSAGI in the Soviet Union (see MIG 21/Su 9, Ye2/Su7, Mig 29/Su 27 etc) 4. Finally, see the trends for different countries at the end of the war: The allies, with good, powerful engines in the pipeline, opted for heavier, better armed (up to 4 guns) and equipped larger and heavier aircraft like the Nie 29 or Martinsyde Buzzard ("WW I Phantoms"), the Germans for light weight construction (exemplified by the Fokker E V, but even more the Rumpler D I - a real engineering nightmare - and the Albatros D XII) - WW I equivalents to the MIG 21, if you like. Seen along these lines, the Pfalz concept looks different. No overengineering or Mercedes-priced quality, just a try to achieve parity. It failed mainly because of some basic lack of knowledge (unsuitable airfoil section etc). The wing radiator (looks elegant, but was actually a major failure when it comes to aerodynamic and cooling efficiency) is another prime example in this field. Finally, while I also think there is a point in Neils remark on production complexity, the numbers of aircraft available were mainly defined by actual industrial capacity - something just simply lacking in Germany, when compared to the Allies. Volker -----Original Message----- From: wwi@wwi-models.org [mailto:wwi@wwi-models.org]On Behalf Of Hans Trauner Sent: 09 April 2001 19:21 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII Hi, I know that there is some long tradition ( and discussion) about german over-engineering. Mercedes-Benz, Tiger Tanks, and now ICE trains. Neil said that the Pfalz was over-engineered , too and compared it to SPAD's. I don't think so. Over-engineered for war purposes, maybe, where all-metal constructions like Do's and Ju's. The SPAD was not easier to built than Pfalzes or Albatrosses. BTW are there any man-hour-statistics known? They managed to built more and they had the better engines. Engines where the achilles heels of german a/c constructions since ever. They over-engineered the rotary with the SH-types ( counter-rotaring crankshaft), but this was some sort of a dead-end-street. BMW managed to construct their 'Hoehenmotor', but compared with the lastest Hispano-Suizas it was not sooo much better. So, the main disadvantage of german aircrafts where lower-engineered-engines. ( New word! ) Hans P.S. Over-engineering: Do you know that Deutsche Bundesbahn is using russian locomotives and Deutsche Luftwaffe is flying russian fighters? But, no russian computers yet. The Russians are uncertain what they should follow: Mac's or PC's. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:47:10 -0400 From: "Brian Nicklas" To: wwi@wwi-models.org Subject: Re: Excellent Alberto Casirati news Message-ID: Alberto has been officially appointed as Honorary Keeper of the Aviation Department of the Bergamo Historical Museum. Congratulations Alberto!!! To add to Matt's comments, as a "museum professional" I know that this is no small honor. Safety, security and integrity of a collection are paramount to a keeper/curator, so awarding the "Honorary Keeper" title is a significant honor. Well Done Alberto!!! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:57:29 +0200 From: "Hans Trauner" To: Subject: Re: Overengineering: Re: Pfalz DIII vs Spad VII Message-ID: <001301c0c0fd$04841dc0$4ea072d4@FRITZweb> Are those Mig 29's still in service with the Luftwaffe? > /Neil To my knowledge: Yes. Waiting for the Typhoon, I suspect. Hans ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:55:07 -0500 From: Brent Theobald To: "'wwi@wwi-models.org'" Subject: RE: Anodize was SIA article in WS Message-ID: <4B9386E83999D411997100508BAF206A01608F22@stamail.telecom.sna.samsung.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0FC.AF83B5B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Howdy! Perhaps one of the chemists can answer this better. The anodize process is involves an electrical charge IIRC. I would recomend screwing with current in a liquid solution at home. However, it seems completely possible to dye, or stain burnished aluminum foil. Later! Brent -----Original Message----- From: Crawford Neil [mailto:Neil.Crawford@volvo.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:38 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Anodize was SIA article in WS Well, like I said I was just blathering, thanks for the responses. Can you make aluminium dull grey? Could the Italians have done this in WW1? And seeing you know the subject, here is an idea I've had for years. To make a good alu-finish on a model, cover the model with kitchen foil, (fine)sand and polish it to give it a really good finish. Then put it in a saucepan of water and chemicals(?) and home-anodize it, could this work, and what should you use? I'm thinking in the direction of how we clean silver using (IIRC) boiling water, salt and alu-foil, only the other way round! /Neil (thinking again) > Hey Neil, > > We anodize aluminum all the time. It comes in clear as well > as different > colors. It is very common as is alodine and chromate > finishes. I don't know > when these finishes were first used but I'd guess after WWII > judging by the > aircraft I've seen. Most aircraft I've seen from that period > and earlier > were protected with paint. > > Also you may be thinking of galvanizing. It's done to iron and steel. > > As for painting an aluminum cowl? Your guess is as good as > mine. Perhaps to > aid in camouflage or anti-glare? > > Later! > > Brent > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C0FC.AF83B5B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Anodize was SIA article in WS

Howdy!

Perhaps one of the chemists can answer this better. = The anodize process is involves an electrical charge IIRC. I would = recomend screwing with current in a liquid solution at home.

However, it seems completely possible to dye, or = stain burnished aluminum foil.

Later!

Brent

-----Original Message-----
From: Crawford Neil [mailto:Neil.Crawford@volvo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:38 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: Anodize was SIA article in WS

Well, like I said I was just blathering, thanks for = the responses.
Can you make aluminium dull grey? Could the Italians = have done this
in WW1?

And seeing you know the subject, here is an idea I've = had for years.
To make a good alu-finish on a model, cover the = model with kitchen
foil, (fine)sand and polish it to give it a really = good finish.
Then put it in a saucepan of water and chemicals(?) = and home-anodize
it, could this work, and what should you use? I'm = thinking in the direction
of how we clean silver using (IIRC) boiling water, = salt and alu-foil,
only the other way round!
/Neil (thinking again)

> Hey Neil,
>
> We anodize aluminum all the time. It comes in = clear as well
> as different
> colors. It is very common as is alodine and = chromate
> finishes. I don't know
> when these finishes were first used but I'd = guess after WWII
> judging by the
> aircraft I've seen. Most aircraft I've seen = from that period
> and earlier
> were protected with paint.
>
> Also you may be thinking of galvanizing. It's = done to iron and steel.
>
> As for painting an aluminum cowl? Your guess is = as good as
> mine. Perhaps to
> aid in camouflage or anti-glare?
>
> Later!
>
> Brent
>

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