WWI Digest 2749 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Website Help by MAnde72343@aol.com 2) Re: WW-l Airfix model Question by MAnde72343@aol.com 3) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by MAnde72343@aol.com 4) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Todd Hayes 5) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Sharon Henderson 6) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Sharon Henderson 7) Now Here's one for the cook-up 1/8 camel by "Ray Boorman" 8) Nice Pfalz D.XII profiles by David Solosy 9) Re: Iowans on "the List" by "Matt Bittner" 10) Re: Website Help by Sixmilfigs@cs.com 11) Confession by "Matt Bittner" 12) RE: WW-l Airfix model Question by Mark Vaughan-Jackson 13) Re: Website Help by Mark Vaughan-Jackson 14) Re: Confession by Mark Vaughan-Jackson 15) An Unusual Hobby Shop by Todd Hayes 16) Re: Merlin's Ni.10 by Todd Hayes 17) RE: Confession by "Ray Boorman" 18) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Todd Hayes 19) RE: MvR- Baron or Not? by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Volker_H=E4usler?= 20) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Todd Hayes 21) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Todd Hayes 22) Re: MvR- Baron or Not? by Todd Hayes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:10:22 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Website Help Message-ID: <3e.2a33803.2728de7e@aol.com> Verlinden makes a 1/72 PSP part no. 865; and 1/48, no. 884, I have seen at least two other companies make PSP, but can't remember, at this time. Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:15:05 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: WW-l Airfix model Question Message-ID: <5e.2687585.2728df99@aol.com> I've been calling them as I see them for over ten years, and I do have some affection for those kits, (check out my Bristol at the website). That said, the problem with Airfix is that they have not advanced very much in the last ten years, which made me sad, and perhaps a little bitter, Airfix was my kit of choice as a child. Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:17:01 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: <95.251d885.2728e00d@aol.com> IIRC, Karl Bolko was the last 'Baron Richtofen' when he died in 1967. Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:05:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: <20001026000542.2128.qmail@web9008.mail.yahoo.com> At the time Rome fell, the German tribes were still barbaric but free societies. Feudal titles, such as Freiherr, wouldn't have evolved, most likely, until after the final conquest of the German tribes by Charlemagne in the late 700's through the early 800's. The evolution of the formal German states really dates from the time of Otto the Great (Saxon line), founder (962) of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (full title). The origial rulers of these "stem duchies" were churchmen (Catholic- no children) so the duchies would revert back to the Emperor when the rulers died and power wouldn't accumulate in the hands of a specific individual/family. TH --- TomTheAeronut@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/25/00 5:41:44 PM EST, > dora9@sprynet.com writes: > > << Out of curiosity, where did 'Freiherr' come > from? In literal German, it > means: 'Free Man'. Any thoughts? > >> > > Probably out of the barbarianism in Europe following > the fall of Rome when > the only "free men" were the would-be Hells Angels > types who could steal a > set of armor and then lay waste to their neighbors > and proclaim themselves > "righteous" for their crimes with no one to argue. > The rest of us were > decidedly unfree. > > Tom Cleaver __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:50:55 -0400 From: Sharon Henderson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: Todd writes: >The question of MvR's title has interested me for a >long time. I'm not sure where the title Freiherr >comes from, even though I have studied German for over >7 years. Baron is a generic title. It's privileges >depended more on personal influence and wealth than on >a set value. Absolutely correct. There do exist terms in German for baronage: Baron and Baronin, and these terms were in use during MvR's lifetime, alongside Freiherr/Freifrau. The difference is landed versus court title: a Baron or Baroness would be local authority over a certain area of land -- Baron OF Schweidnitz, for instance, had Albrecht's ancestor received a land grant with the title, versus simply Baron Albrecht, which is a court title that doesn't convey a grant of territory. Like a non-purchasable version of the British title of Baronet (unless you count deeds done for the King to be the price of purchase), Freiherr/frau was a title given to an individual whom the King wished to honor and give minor noble status to, without the inconvenience of carving up more territory. It carries social and court obligations only, and they weren't handed out to your Average Joe Deutscher. >MvR's father came from a reasonably poor >family. The family wealth and estate were inherited >from his mother's side. Somewhat; but I do believe the lovely old estate at Schweidnitz, now Wroclaw, Poland, was in fact Richthofen property. >BTW, Freifrau von Richthofen >lived until the 1950's. Ilse and Karl Bolko at least >until then. Karl went into business rather than >pursue a military career. Tip: in German, "von" even >if it's the first word in a title, is not capitalized. :-) Karl in fact became a travel agent of sorts. He wrote a number of extremely amusing, helpful travel guides that sold very well. I have a couple of them in my collection. I also have a wonderful photo of Mama Richthofen at one of her later birthday celebrations, smiling like anything as she receives a huge bouquet of flowers from Hans-Georg von der Osten, a veteran of Jasta 11. :-) A correspondant of mine from Germany believes, BTW, that the family name derives from a medieval "epithet" name, given to an early Richthofen ancestor who was the local "knight of last resort" in his region, during more lawless times in what became Germany later on -- hence the name Richt-hofen, seat of justice as it is sometimes rendered, but with overtones of a righteous, or safe, harbor. Someone to run to, as it were, when things were otherwise injust.... sounds plausible enough! :-) Todd, where are you studying history? I'm starting my post-grad work at my alma mater, George Mason Univ. here in VA. Let us know when the discussion strays too far from the sprue, folks... :-) Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:10:59 -0400 From: Sharon Henderson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: >THis has been an interesting discussion! This is why I am on the List in >the first place. :-) Glad you're enjoying it! I know I am. I live for these things. :-) > Out of curiosity, where did 'Freiherr' come from? In literal >German, it means: 'Free Man'. Any thoughts? Actually, free man would be the modern translation -- but back at the time of the title's inception, it would have been understood to mean "free LORD". The original meaning of herr was like that of sieur in French and Mister in Medieval English: it was for a specific class of people. In France no peasant would ever have been called Monsieur except as heavy irony or sarcasm; likewise Goodman Saxon would never have been called Mister. It is only later on that these words were brought down to a more democratic level. They do tend to continue with their original meanings in religious ceremonial language: Lieber Herr Gott would be translated as Dear Lord God, and so on. So, a Freiherr -- a "free Lord" -- is one who is recognized by the Court of the King as a Lord, but is "free" of the burden of landed responsibility. We sometimes forget, I think, that the world into which our grandparents were born, was a far less level playing-field than we are accustomed to. My students are always stunned to learn, for instance, that even in the US, allowing someone to use your first name was an indicator of incredible social intimacy, all the way up til about the 1930's. Cheers, Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:19:50 -0700 From: "Ray Boorman" To: "wwi" Subject: Now Here's one for the cook-up 1/8 camel Message-ID: I just saw this on ebay. Starting price is too rich for me, let alone what it will probably sell for. Of course David Burke could restart his Camel with this one ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=479182487 Ray ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:16:44 +0800 From: David Solosy To: "WW1 List (E-mail)" Subject: Nice Pfalz D.XII profiles Message-ID: <56EBF0EF4A03D4118C6F00902776597F145C08@s26pss4.pssc.wa.gov.au> Chaps and Chapesses   The April, May and June issues of this Czech modeller's magazine, HaPM, have some good OT content. This is from the NKR Models website http://www.nkrmodels.com.au/ 'All have 36 pages with colour and black and white photos and drawings. All Czech text with a four page English summary. Here is what each issue covers:- APRIL '00 :- KuK submarines, Dunkerque 28 Oct & 5 Nov 1944, Czech airman in the RAF 1940-'45, Linienshiffsleutnant Gottfreid Freiherr von Banfield, Philippine constabulary 1899-1945, Replica of Tatra OA type 30 armoured car, SAAF museum flying day 1999. MAY '00 :- Saab 37 Viggen, FAMO SdKfz 9, Pfalz D.12, Dunkerque 28 Oct & 5 Nov 1944, Czech airmen in the RAF 1940-1945, Museo Del Aire Cuatro Vientos Madrid. JUNE '00 :- Saab 37 Vigen, FAMO SdKfz 9, Pfalz D.12, Sack AS.6, Light romance on Theme T-55 AM2 'Kladive' (Hammer), FIDAE 2000.' The May and June issues with the Pfalz D.XII are worth getting for the profiles alone. The standard of artwork is first class. I am now inspired to build a Pfalz D.XII.  (The flesh is strong but the mind is weak!). The profiles of Banfield's birds are also well done. The photos are nothing new, however. For A$5 they are excellent value (that's about US$2.65;  CAN$4.00; UK1.80pounds).   David S   ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:23:18 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Iowans on "the List" Message-ID: <200010260222.TAA19664@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:28:03 -0400 (EDT), Todd Hayes wrote: > I remember the recent talk about Des Moines. Just out > of curiousity. How many of you out there live in, or > are from, Iowa? I'm writing from Burlington. I used to live in Des Moines, but I was smart. I moved. ;-) Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:26:07 EDT From: Sixmilfigs@cs.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Website Help Message-ID: Helmut http://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Scalelink_P_S_P__Models__52.html Shawn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:37:24 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Confession Message-ID: <200010260237.TAA19139@falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Well, I'm in such a VVS mood lately I'm finding it difficult to get back "on topic". I just finished scratching two ShVAK cannons and I think they came out great. I'm looking forward to completing more in this Art Deco frame of mind (those who visit my VVS site understands) that I'm finding it hard to get back to things with wire. I have two Dr.I's I have to build, but yet they sit...while I carry forth with cool VVS machines. Just wait 'till you see November. ;-) Maybe the next cook up should be Polikarpov? To bring this back on topic, the Polikarpov R-1 was a copy of the DH-9a... Oh cool! Another VVS machine! ;-) Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:26:23 -0400 From: Mark Vaughan-Jackson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: WW-l Airfix model Question Message-ID: I remember building the Pup and the DV ages ago and fudging them up terribly. That led me to sell the DH4 without really looking at it. This was, of course, before the WWI bug truly bit. This past weekend at our IPMS annual club day shindig, the friend I sold it to brought the DH4 along, half built. I could have wept. . .lovely looking little thing. And to think I sold it for $5 CDN (about 20 cents US these days.) :-( MVJ - wailing and gnashing teeth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:27:52 -0400 From: Mark Vaughan-Jackson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Website Help Message-ID: There are samples of PSP in the 2000 Eduard cataglog if memory serves. Not sure if it's in both scales, but it was definitely there on the back pages. MVJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:33:02 -0400 From: Mark Vaughan-Jackson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Confession Message-ID: Matt, remind me... what's the URl for your VVS site?? (Inquring minds burning the midnight oil in eastern Canada where it's 12:30 a.m. and I've just finished a my last story for tomorrow's paper.) MVJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: An Unusual Hobby Shop Message-ID: <20001026021946.71033.qmail@web9009.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone, Has anyone actually seen the 1:48 Port Victoria PV7 by HR Models? If so, how is it, and what kind of materials? I've ordered a couple from Vamp Models and I'd like to know what to expect. BTW, historical note: The village/town of Chlum where Vamp Models is located was the center of the Austrian lines in the Battle of Sadowa (Koeniggratz) in the Austro-Prussian War of 1866. TH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:23:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Merlin's Ni.10 Message-ID: <20001026022306.71381.qmail@web9009.mail.yahoo.com> Poor kit? That's it! Bragg them up!! TH --- Courtney Allen wrote: > Dale > > I will get you a price but be warned that it is a > very poor kit. > > Courtney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dale Sebring > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: Merlin's Ni.10 > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Courtney Allen" > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list" > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:54 AM > > Subject: Re: Merlin's Ni.10 > > > > > > > Alberto, > > > > > > I have a hobby shop near me that has a number of > Merlin Ni. 10 both > scales > > > ( I think). Are you still interested? If > available in both scales > which > > > would you prefer? I can certainly pick you up > whatever you would like. > > > > > > Hi Courtney, > > > > Forgive my intrusion, but for some time I have > been looking for a Nieuport > > 10/12 kit in 1/48 scale...tried to locate a Tom's > kit but no luck. I would > > appreciate very much if you could let me know how > much a Merlin balloon > > scale kit is. > > > > TIA, > > Dale S. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:01:51 -0700 From: "Ray Boorman" To: Subject: RE: Confession Message-ID: Matt, Just for that you should build some Bolshevik Nieuports!! Or a captured Sopwith Triplane ;) Ray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: <20001026023603.25075.qmail@web9008.mail.yahoo.com> Sharon, I'm on a temporarily extended break from school. I received my B.A. from Western Illinois University at Macomb, Il. I studied there for my M.A. but due to ill health (Chronic Depression/hypertension) I had to stop. As a matter of fact, I go into the hospital tomorrow for approx. 2wks for tests and treatment). Concerning MvR, several list members seem to be enthusiastic about the topic. Something about dem Freiherrn does that to people. TH --- Sharon Henderson wrote: > Todd writes: > > >The question of MvR's title has interested me for a > >long time. I'm not sure where the title Freiherr > >comes from, even though I have studied German for > over > >7 years. Baron is a generic title. It's > privileges > >depended more on personal influence and wealth than > on > >a set value. > > Absolutely correct. There do exist terms in German > for baronage: > Baron and Baronin, and these terms were in use > during MvR's lifetime, > alongside Freiherr/Freifrau. The difference is > landed versus court > title: a Baron or Baroness would be local authority > over a certain > area of land -- Baron OF Schweidnitz, for instance, > had Albrecht's > ancestor received a land grant with the title, > versus simply Baron > Albrecht, which is a court title that doesn't convey > a grant of territory. > Like a non-purchasable version of the British title > of Baronet > (unless you count deeds done for the King to be the > price of purchase), > Freiherr/frau was a title given to an individual > whom the King wished > to honor and give minor noble status to, without the > inconvenience > of carving up more territory. It carries social and > court obligations > only, and they weren't handed out to your Average > Joe Deutscher. > > >MvR's father came from a reasonably poor > >family. The family wealth and estate were > inherited > >from his mother's side. > > Somewhat; but I do believe the lovely old estate at > Schweidnitz, > now Wroclaw, Poland, was in fact Richthofen > property. > > >BTW, Freifrau von Richthofen > >lived until the 1950's. Ilse and Karl Bolko at > least > >until then. Karl went into business rather than > >pursue a military career. Tip: in German, "von" > even > >if it's the first word in a title, is not > capitalized. > > :-) Karl in fact became a travel agent of sorts. He > wrote a number > of extremely amusing, helpful travel guides that > sold very well. > I have a couple of them in my collection. I also > have a wonderful > photo of Mama Richthofen at one of her later > birthday celebrations, > smiling like anything as she receives a huge bouquet > of flowers > from Hans-Georg von der Osten, a veteran of Jasta > 11. :-) > > A correspondant of mine from Germany believes, BTW, > that the family > name derives from a medieval "epithet" name, given > to an early Richthofen > ancestor who was the local "knight of last resort" > in his region, > during more lawless times in what became Germany > later on -- hence > the name Richt-hofen, seat of justice as it is > sometimes rendered, > but with overtones of a righteous, or safe, harbor. > Someone to > run to, as it were, when things were otherwise > injust.... sounds > plausible enough! :-) > > Todd, where are you studying history? I'm starting > my post-grad > work at my alma mater, George Mason Univ. here in > VA. > > Let us know when the discussion strays too far from > the sprue, folks... > :-) > > Sharon > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:01:29 +0700 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Volker_H=E4usler?= To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: I´m not an expert in nobility titles, but a quick look in my "Brockhaus Enzyklopaedie" (something like the Encyclopaedia Brittanica for Germany) shows the following: First, "Frei" in Freiherr obviously means "free". The "Herr" comes from the althochdeutsch ("old high german") "herro", itself derived from the latin senior (komp. of senex) meaning "the older" in the sense of "honorable" or "venerable". Therefore other equivalents include the Spanish "senor" or the Italian "signore" The "Freiherr" title derives itself from the spaetmittelhochdeutsch title of "vriherre", which according to the explanation given above translates into a "free honorable man". "Freie Herren" in the original meaning were those nobilities (by birth) which did not belong to the "Reichsfuersten" or "Grafen" rank. Later it was transformed to mean the highest rank of low nobility. According to the Brockhaus, the "Baron" title was an invention of the 16th century to address "Freiherren", coming from France where many lower nobilities were wearing this title since the 12th century. Actually, the von Richthofen Family is still quite existant in Germany, with Manfred von Richthofen (of a different generation) being (or at least having been - I´m no longer well informed of what´s going on over there) the president of the Deutsch Sportbund (German Athletics Society). Part of the Richthofens moved to Wiesbaden after WW II, which is why MvR´s grave now is at Wiesbaden´s Suedfriedhof. Actually, his grave´s inscription reads "Freiherr von Richthofen". So, if the Brockhaus is right, MvR was a "Freiherr" but could be addressed "Baron" Volker -----Original Message----- From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of Sharon Henderson Sent: Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2000 09:23 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? >THis has been an interesting discussion! This is why I am on the List in >the first place. :-) Glad you're enjoying it! I know I am. I live for these things. :-) > Out of curiosity, where did 'Freiherr' come from? In literal >German, it means: 'Free Man'. Any thoughts? Actually, free man would be the modern translation -- but back at the time of the title's inception, it would have been understood to mean "free LORD". The original meaning of herr was like that of sieur in French and Mister in Medieval English: it was for a specific class of people. In France no peasant would ever have been called Monsieur except as heavy irony or sarcasm; likewise Goodman Saxon would never have been called Mister. It is only later on that these words were brought down to a more democratic level. They do tend to continue with their original meanings in religious ceremonial language: Lieber Herr Gott would be translated as Dear Lord God, and so on. So, a Freiherr -- a "free Lord" -- is one who is recognized by the Court of the King as a Lord, but is "free" of the burden of landed responsibility. We sometimes forget, I think, that the world into which our grandparents were born, was a far less level playing-field than we are accustomed to. My students are always stunned to learn, for instance, that even in the US, allowing someone to use your first name was an indicator of incredible social intimacy, all the way up til about the 1930's. Cheers, Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: <20001026024147.53416.qmail@web9010.mail.yahoo.com> as in "jawohl Herr Rittmeister"! TH --- Sharon Henderson wrote: > >THis has been an interesting discussion! This is > why I am on the > List in > >the first place. > > :-) Glad you're enjoying it! I know I am. I live > for these things. > :-) > > > Out of curiosity, where did 'Freiherr' come > from? In literal > >German, it means: 'Free Man'. Any thoughts? > > Actually, free man would be the modern translation > -- but back at > the time of the title's inception, it would have > been understood > to mean "free LORD". The original meaning of herr > was like that > of sieur in French and Mister in Medieval English: > it was for a specific > class of people. In France no peasant would ever > have been called > Monsieur except as heavy irony or sarcasm; likewise > Goodman Saxon > would never have been called Mister. It is only > later on that these > words were brought down to a more democratic level. > They do tend > to continue with their original meanings in > religious ceremonial > language: Lieber Herr Gott would be translated as > Dear Lord God, > and so on. > > So, a Freiherr -- a "free Lord" -- is one who is > recognized by the > Court of the King as a Lord, but is "free" of the > burden of landed > responsibility. > > We sometimes forget, I think, that the world into > which our grandparents > were born, was a far less level playing-field than > we are accustomed > to. My students are always stunned to learn, for > instance, that > even in the US, allowing someone to use your first > name was an indicator > of incredible social intimacy, all the way up til > about the 1930's. > > > Cheers, > Sharon > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:48:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: <20001026024836.75368.qmail@web9009.mail.yahoo.com> Isn't German such a fun language to translate into English?! Try Russian sometime. It makes German look easy!! TH --- Sharon Henderson wrote: > >THis has been an interesting discussion! This is > why I am on the > List in > >the first place. > > :-) Glad you're enjoying it! I know I am. I live > for these things. > :-) > > > Out of curiosity, where did 'Freiherr' come > from? In literal > >German, it means: 'Free Man'. Any thoughts? > > Actually, free man would be the modern translation > -- but back at > the time of the title's inception, it would have > been understood > to mean "free LORD". The original meaning of herr > was like that > of sieur in French and Mister in Medieval English: > it was for a specific > class of people. In France no peasant would ever > have been called > Monsieur except as heavy irony or sarcasm; likewise > Goodman Saxon > would never have been called Mister. It is only > later on that these > words were brought down to a more democratic level. > They do tend > to continue with their original meanings in > religious ceremonial > language: Lieber Herr Gott would be translated as > Dear Lord God, > and so on. > > So, a Freiherr -- a "free Lord" -- is one who is > recognized by the > Court of the King as a Lord, but is "free" of the > burden of landed > responsibility. > > We sometimes forget, I think, that the world into > which our grandparents > were born, was a far less level playing-field than > we are accustomed > to. My students are always stunned to learn, for > instance, that > even in the US, allowing someone to use your first > name was an indicator > of incredible social intimacy, all the way up til > about the 1930's. > > > Cheers, > Sharon > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:38:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Hayes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: MvR- Baron or Not? Message-ID: <20001026023832.67861.qmail@web9006.mail.yahoo.com> I forgot. It's ironic that Wroclaw is where Eduard's Polish Distribution center is. --- Sharon Henderson wrote: > Todd writes: > > >The question of MvR's title has interested me for a > >long time. I'm not sure where the title Freiherr > >comes from, even though I have studied German for > over > >7 years. Baron is a generic title. It's > privileges > >depended more on personal influence and wealth than > on > >a set value. > > Absolutely correct. There do exist terms in German > for baronage: > Baron and Baronin, and these terms were in use > during MvR's lifetime, > alongside Freiherr/Freifrau. The difference is > landed versus court > title: a Baron or Baroness would be local authority > over a certain > area of land -- Baron OF Schweidnitz, for instance, > had Albrecht's > ancestor received a land grant with the title, > versus simply Baron > Albrecht, which is a court title that doesn't convey > a grant of territory. > Like a non-purchasable version of the British title > of Baronet > (unless you count deeds done for the King to be the > price of purchase), > Freiherr/frau was a title given to an individual > whom the King wished > to honor and give minor noble status to, without the > inconvenience > of carving up more territory. It carries social and > court obligations > only, and they weren't handed out to your Average > Joe Deutscher. > > >MvR's father came from a reasonably poor > >family. The family wealth and estate were > inherited > >from his mother's side. > > Somewhat; but I do believe the lovely old estate at > Schweidnitz, > now Wroclaw, Poland, was in fact Richthofen > property. > > >BTW, Freifrau von Richthofen > >lived until the 1950's. Ilse and Karl Bolko at > least > >until then. Karl went into business rather than > >pursue a military career. Tip: in German, "von" > even > >if it's the first word in a title, is not > capitalized. > > :-) Karl in fact became a travel agent of sorts. He > wrote a number > of extremely amusing, helpful travel guides that > sold very well. > I have a couple of them in my collection. I also > have a wonderful > photo of Mama Richthofen at one of her later > birthday celebrations, > smiling like anything as she receives a huge bouquet > of flowers > from Hans-Georg von der Osten, a veteran of Jasta > 11. :-) > > A correspondant of mine from Germany believes, BTW, > that the family > name derives from a medieval "epithet" name, given > to an early Richthofen > ancestor who was the local "knight of last resort" > in his region, > during more lawless times in what became Germany > later on -- hence > the name Richt-hofen, seat of justice as it is > sometimes rendered, > but with overtones of a righteous, or safe, harbor. > Someone to > run to, as it were, when things were otherwise > injust.... sounds > plausible enough! :-) > > Todd, where are you studying history? I'm starting > my post-grad > work at my alma mater, George Mason Univ. here in > VA. > > Let us know when the discussion strays too far from > the sprue, folks... > :-) > > Sharon > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 2749 **********************