WWI Digest 2694 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Green Color of Green Tailed Albatri? by "Limon3" 2) Cook-up pictures need scanning. by Ernest Thomas 3) Rats......unsubbed again by Shane Weier 4) Re: Enjoying the list was Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? by Mike Kavanaugh 5) RE: Club displays by Shane Weier 6) Re: Rats......unsubbed again by Mike Kavanaugh 7) RE: Club displays by Shane Weier 8) Re: New review at Squadron by Ernest Thomas 9) RE: Rats......unsubbed again by Shane Weier 10) Next Cook-up, again. by Ernest Thomas 11) Re: Club displays BS by Mike Kavanaugh 12) RE: Next Cook-up, again. by Shane Weier 13) RE: Club displays BS by Shane Weier 14) Xmas 1914 by "DAVID BURKE" 15) Re: Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? by "DAVID BURKE" 16) Re: Photographing models BS by Mike Kavanaugh 17) Re: Photographing models - Wrong Info by NodalPoint@aol.com 18) Re: Well deserved plug; AEROPLANE BOOKS ROCKS!!! by NodalPoint@aol.com 19) Re: Next Cook-up, again. by Ernest Thomas 20) Re: Enjoying the list was Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? by huggins1@swbell.net (John Huggins) 21) Re: Gotha Ursinus by NodalPoint@aol.com 22) Re: Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? BS by Mike Kavanaugh 23) Dilthey's Plane by "Jack Gartner" 24) Re: The Voss deal-BS by NodalPoint@aol.com 25) Re: Club displays BS by Mike Kavanaugh ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:36:20 -0700 From: "Limon3" To: Subject: Re: Green Color of Green Tailed Albatri? Message-ID: <000801c02f46$98cd9540$c7de2a3f@f4w2s5> Jack, I used the Albi Datafile special, and the Profile Pub. as references, as both had pretty clear pictures of the plane. I did guess at the u/c struts being green as well, but wasn't too clear on that. As for the color backing up the upper wing crosses, again I made an educated guess, as the color was much lighter than the green striping, and yet you can still pick out the white outline of the crosses. I used a pale grayish-green for that. Worked for me, only poor old Helmut knows for sure, couldn't ask him. Regards, Gabe -----Original Message----- From: Jack Gartner To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Green Color of Green Tailed Albatri? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Limon3 >To: Multiple recipients of list >Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 7:00 PM >Subject: Re: Green Color of Green Tailed Albatri? > > >> Jack, >> Glad I could be of help to you. BTW I admire your work very much, and >know >> that you'll do real justice to "Dilthey." >> Gabe >> >Gabe, > >I'm flattered! Thanks for the kind words. You didn't mention that you had >already done one! :-> I also very much liked your Altemaier DVIII, looks >like it was tough to mask! > >Out of curiosity, do you have a reference that indicates that the cabane and >u/c struts as well as the axle fairing were also green or were you using >"modeler's license"? I kind of figured that the cabane struts would be >green, but wasn't sure about the undercarriage. It makes sense though, >since the wheel covers were green. > >Thanks again for your help. Am masking off the white so I can spray the >green, hopefully tomorrow. > >Jack Gartner IPMS/USA 30538 >diaphus@tampabay.rr.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:40:14 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: The List Subject: Cook-up pictures need scanning. Message-ID: <39DD499D.CBB63DC4@bellsouth.net> Howdy All, I now have pictures of my finished Cook-up Tross and I need someone willing to scan them and forward them to the cook-up photo administrator, (sorry, I forgot who it is). Whoever does it(and promtly, please?) can keep the prints, if so desired. Tia, E. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:44:22 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi'" Subject: Rats......unsubbed again Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C71621AE7@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Hi all, Stupid ISP had a hernia and I got unsubbed for a couple of hours. Anyone expecting an answer from me - Imay not have seen the question. God I hate getting unsubbed. I might miss an important post ! Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au phone: Australia 1800500646 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:53:03 -0700 From: Mike Kavanaugh To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Enjoying the list was Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? Message-ID: <39DD68BF.963F962F@earthlink.net> I bow to your eternal wisdom, Mistress Lorna Mike K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:51:56 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Club displays Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C71621AE8@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> DB suggests: > > How about a display of Voss F.1 aircraft in all conceivable > schemes? That should give you a few to chew on! > Mmmm. NO FREAKING WAY !!!! Shane ;-) ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au phone: Australia 1800500646 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:00:00 -0700 From: Mike Kavanaugh To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Rats......unsubbed again Message-ID: <39DD6A60.663D88D1@earthlink.net> My sympathies, Shane, Only God knows what unanswered questions of WWI aircraft modeldom have gone ignorantly and blithely past in your absence. But at the rate the List has been moving lately, I don't think that you missed much. Mike K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:00:37 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Club displays Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C71621AE9@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Jim H suggests: > Manfred flew other planes besides the triplane, didn't he? > How about a display entitled "The Planes Richtofen Flew." > > If I were a betting kind of guy, I'd bet most people who even know who > MvR was don't know that he flew anything other than a red triplane. Most of those who look at this display would know that he flew a red triplane and "know" that he shot down most of his victims in it (incorrectly, of course) because a high percentage of them will be aircraft modellers. Mark adds: >Actually, you've got about a dozen fighter (scout) planes >documented for MvR, and some with evolving markings. Given that this is a club project and that I have to convince the members to 1. Build a biplane (most don't, but enough do to make a reasonable team) 2. Buy a kit or kits each (and this is where it gets sticky - cost and availability start to intrude for some subjects) 3. Referee fights over who gets to build 425/17 and avoids streaky dope finishes 4. Build it in time, consistently between members (Yeah, I *know* that it's possible that triplane olive dope might differ from aircraft to aircraft, but try convincing the viewing public that the four or five different shades of dope and CDL are *all* correct. The guys with the black 1940 Ford had it easy. 5. Get them all finished in time (hey, *I* probably can't do it !) ....I'm not so sure this flies. All in all, I wish someone else was organising this ! Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au phone: Australia 1800500646 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:01:24 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: New review at Squadron Message-ID: <39DD4E93.C91455B4@bellsouth.net> Matt Bittner wrote: > Richard Eaton's Taube review is now on the Squadron site: > > http://www.squadron.com/Pegasus%20Taube%20Article > Masterfully done! E. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:05:24 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Rats......unsubbed again Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C71621AEB@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Mike, > Only God knows what unanswered questions of WWI aircraft modeldom have > gone ignorantly and blithely past in your absence. But at > the rate the > List has been moving lately, I don't think that you missed much. Awwwr, even when it's ot dribble it's mothers milk....... Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au phone: Australia 1800500646 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:09:50 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: The List Subject: Next Cook-up, again. Message-ID: <39DD508D.1944C171@bellsouth.net> Howdy, So now that I'm finished my c-u tross, I feel able to get into the discussion on what the next c-u subject should be. I vote for something British. I was just looking at the shelf, and noticed that I've got a whole shelf full of Fokkers and Albatrii, and another whole shelf full of Neiuports and Spads. I need some PC10 and 12 here. I've got a DH-5 in progress, but that's not something that everyone is likely to have. What about an SE-5? There's currently kits available in both scales, with an Eduard promised for the hopefully not too distant future. Or, we could do a Pup. It's available in both scales, and if we do a Pup, I can go ahead with that checker board scheme I fell in love with today. :-) E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:19:45 -0700 From: Mike Kavanaugh To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Club displays BS Message-ID: <39DD6F01.E9058806@earthlink.net> Shane said: <> You might consider contracting this venture out, but then, monitoring the activities of the promotional/advertising types that would respond to your proposal might drive you nuts! I don't envy you. Mike K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:18:10 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Next Cook-up, again. Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C71621AED@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> EtH says: > I need some > PC10 and 12 > here. I've got a DH-5 in progress, but that's not something that > everyone is likely to have. What about an SE-5? There's currently kits > available in both scales, with an Eduard promised for the > hopefully not > too distant future. > Or, we could do a Pup. It's available in both scales, and if we do a > Pup, I can go ahead with that checker board scheme I fell in love with > today. I thought that the Albatros c-u was *manufacturer* based and we could make *any* Albatros B, C, D or Dr. So why not simply a *Sopwith* cookup. There are plenty of decent kits in both scales, in mainstream and shortrun injection, vacform and resin Just my opinion. Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au phone: Australia 1800500646 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:22:35 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Club displays BS Message-ID: <7186131CB805D411A60E0090272F7C71621AEE@mimhexch1.mim.com.au> Mike > <> > > You might consider contracting this venture out, but then, > monitoring > the activities of the promotional/advertising types that would respond > to your proposal might drive you nuts! I don't envy you. Better would be to get Mistress Lorna back up to RSMC. With her and her well known cat o' nine tails I'm sure they'd all do just what she told em Shane ********************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this e-mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this e-mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted e-mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. e-mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au phone: Australia 1800500646 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 23:31:53 -0500 From: "DAVID BURKE" To: Subject: Xmas 1914 Message-ID: <004501c02f4e$5d323560$7be479a5@com> Hey Guys, About the unofficial Xmas truce in 1914, were there any pics taken? I'm curious as the thought of doing a small vignette of a soccer game between the troops has been itching in my brain. I didn't know if anyone had thought to bring a camera along. I have to blame some of this on Steve Hustad. IIRC, it was he who did that amazing WWI German trench diorama. Guys like that put strange ideas in the minds of the less-talented! Are there any good written accounts of the Christmas Truce? DB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 23:23:37 -0500 From: "DAVID BURKE" To: Subject: Re: Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? Message-ID: <004401c02f4e$5c5988a0$7be479a5@com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kavanaugh" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? > Shane said: > > "THEN....all hell broke loose from people snarling that they didn't want > to > hear about it. Frankly, the "I don't care about Voss, go to hell with it > > all" sentiment of a number of members is beneath the usual tolerant > behaviour of the list. *I* have also had enough of Voss for a lifetime > the > *people* but those who need to go to bed are those who've decided to > impose > rude censorship on what started out as a polite discourse" Jeez, I didn't think that it sounded like rude censorship when I wrote it. Gosh. I'm going to bed. DB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:42:24 -0700 From: Mike Kavanaugh To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Photographing models BS Message-ID: <39DD7450.C53A89FA@earthlink.net> Jeff said: <> Thanks Jeff, I think you have convinced me to get a manual camera in lieu of th Pentax zoom that I now have and was going to try with model building close-ups. Sorry Albatrii cook-up. Another reason why I'll never finish it in the foreseeable future.:<)) Mike.K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:40:58 EDT From: NodalPoint@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Photographing models - Wrong Info Message-ID: In a message dated 10/5/00 2:55:50 PM EST, karaya@ktn.net writes: Jeff writes; << Your specific camera is going to limit what you can do in photographing your models. It has a 35mm - 105mm zoom lens with a fixed aperture. Pentax says that the aperture is F4 to F11 (it varies with the focal length of the lens--F4 being at 35mm and F11 at 105mm) with a focus range of 2.15 feet to infinity. >> The aperture isn't fixed with the focal length. This would mean a camera that is virtually useless if that were true. The aperture is, for the sake of argument and simplicity, independent of focal length. I don't own or have never used this point and shoot but it would be ridiculous to build a camera that fixes the aperture like this. No one would want to buy it. <> Not true! Not true! Depth of field is greater with a wide angle lens than it is with a telephoto at the same f-stop. Why? I won't even mention planes of critical focus, relative aperture, or circles of confusion because, well, it's confusing. And pretty boring. Using a wide angle vs. telephoto for close-up work is much more than just a case of having to stand farther back from the subject. A telephoto does a lot more than simply "magnify" an image. Think about perspective for instance. Steve BTW-You can "extend" depth of field if you use the Hyperfocal Distance as a focus point. This is actually a technique some people on the list may want to investigate if they don't use it already. If you're not using it, you're not getting "maximum" depth of field. And its easy to do if you have a depth of field scale on your lens. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:43:20 EDT From: NodalPoint@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Well deserved plug; AEROPLANE BOOKS ROCKS!!! Message-ID: In a message dated 10/5/00 6:26:58 PM EST, ethomas6@bellsouth.net writes: << Shame on me! www.aeroplanebooks.com Bon Apetit`, and happy shopping. E. >> To quote the Teminator "Excellent." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:49:26 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Next Cook-up, again. Message-ID: <39DD59D5.FAD2E3BC@bellsouth.net> Shane Weier wrote: > So why not simply a *Sopwith* cookup. There are plenty of decent kits in > both scales, in mainstream and shortrun injection, vacform and resin Works for me. E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:44:39 -0500 From: huggins1@swbell.net (John Huggins) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Enjoying the list was Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? Message-ID: >Shane Weier wrote: > >> Not to put too fine a point on it, this most recent outbreak was NOT an > > argument. One listee discovered a hitherto unreported article and >added it to the list general knowledge, and one or two other listees >commented upon it. > > > > THEN....all hell broke loose from people snarling that they >didn't want to hear about it. For what it is worth, I have been a member of this list almost from the beginning. I have seen three threads pop up over the years. They come and go like the tides. They are Voss's Cowl, The real color of MVR's last Dr.1 and Jasta 5 green. I for one could care less about Jasta 5 green at this point, but the info is retained for future projects. Each time it comes up, I can add something new to the data base. The same thing holds true for MVR and Voss. Each time the thread comes back to the surface, someone always adds something new to the equation. I don't get upset about the number of replies. I just scan the content and either delete it or save it. In some cases, I just hit the delete key without even opening it, like I do now whit the Jasta 5 postings. Without this group of people who are willing to share their knowledge and skills, where would many of us be in our modeling projects? How many projects would never get started because of lack of information or reference data? How many of you can say you have belonged to this list and not learned at least one thing that has helped make your modeling abilities better? Accept what is given and say thanks for the input. Stop chasing people away from here because they are talking about something you are not working on at the moment. We have a virtual gold mine here, lets not destroy it. Stepping down from the soapbox, does anyone have a 1/72 scale Albatros C.IX they would be willing to part company with. I need to do a red one. Then I think I may do a F.1 with a green, no yellow cowl followed by an Albatros D something with a green tail. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:52:59 EDT From: NodalPoint@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Gotha Ursinus Message-ID: <3e.1cdd660.270eb4ab@aol.com> In a message dated 10/5/00 7:35:47 PM EST, Zulis@aol.com writes: << Today, while going through Imrie's "German Naval Air Service" (Vintage Aviation Fotofax) I found two pictures of said aircraft - pics number 49 and 50. One with the floats extended and the plane sitting on a beaching dolly, and the other with the floats retracted. >> Dave, I might have those two already. I have the two from Gray's German A/C of the 1st WW. And two more in the Osprey Aviation Pioneers-German WWI AircraftI just picked up. Maybe yours are different. Only thing I've been able to find outside of the above is the short piece from Chandelle. Thanks, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:55:37 -0700 From: Mike Kavanaugh To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Old C&C (USA) Article on Voss Colours?? BS Message-ID: <39DD7769.6C258E7B@earthlink.net> DB said: <> I tried to tell you about our computer processors earlier, DB. It always looks different when you look back at it. My only defense is that "it seemed like the right thing to do at the time". Sleep tight!! Mike K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:57:24 -0400 From: "Jack Gartner" To: Subject: Dilthey's Plane Message-ID: <00b101c02f51$ebdd9e00$0e371c18@tampabay.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Limon3 To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:40 PM Subject: Re: Green Color of Green Tailed Albatri? > Jack, > I used the Albi Datafile special, and the Profile Pub. as references, as > both had pretty clear pictures of the plane. I did guess at the u/c struts > being green as well, but wasn't too clear on that. As for the color backing > up the upper wing crosses, again I made an educated guess, as the color was > much lighter than the green striping, and yet you can still pick out the > white outline of the crosses. I used a pale grayish-green for that. Worked > for me, only poor old Helmut knows for sure, couldn't ask him. > Regards, > Gabe > Gabe, I also made an educated guess about the cross backgrounds. They are clearly not white and I don;t think they are the fuselage green, either, as some have suggested. My guess is underside blue-green, so that's what I used. You can see the wing and some pix of the work in progress on the cookup page. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:18:41 EDT From: NodalPoint@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: The Voss deal-BS Message-ID: mikekavana@earthlink.net writes: << Steve, I can't promise I won't raise this subject again. I recognize that some of the List Members have been reduced to whimpers because of the seemingly mindless continuation of it. However, I am involved in a highly technical, research intensive project regarding polarized materials and their potential application to the Voss cowl, and the ends of science must be pursued. Researchers at Syracuse and Rutgers Universities, and an artist at www.austine.com, among others, have determined that a light source behind revolving polarized lenses can cause color changes in illuminated materials/objects. Like candidate Geo. W. Bush, I find the math is kinda fuzzy. But the point is that grade school-type experiments using polaroid eyeglass lenses, transparent tape and plexiglass have produced surprising results. They have determined that the stiff plastic covering on packs of Christmas cards and the like are acceptable candidates, in that, like plexiglass, these materials do not produce colors themselves. This stuff can likely be vacuformed. See where I'm going?? Remember, you saw it first here!! Polarized lenses, vacuformed cowl. . . . add a geared small electric motor to rotate one of the two lenses through, let's say, 90 to 180 degrees, with the right type of light source, and, voila!!, you can have either color! I have a 1/28 scale Dr. I which, when I receive Barry Stettler's 1/48 F.I conversion set, I can scale up to modify the Dr. I accordingly. I figure the 1/28 scale should be large enough to house the apparatus, although I might have to add some weight to the tail - - talk about a switch, usually it's in the nose. The ultimate, of course, would include a mental receptor to read the color imagery in the mind of the viewer and automatically rotate one or both of the lenses to obtain the appropriate color. This may be pushing too far beyond the state-of-the art and gets scary and very risky when considering mental attitudes of potential viewers. Should the mechanism malfunction, I'm sure the model would suffer much unwarranted abuse. Anyhow, NodalPoint, if you have stayed with me this far, I will try to accomodate your desire to not miss any "gems" or "great facts" insofar as my postings go. I will endeavor to place a "BS" in the subject if no gems or great facts (GF) are included, otherwise, I will place "gem" or "GF" in the subject line if that is the case. You may note an inordinate amount of "BS's" in proportion to "gems" or "GF's." Of course, if I've had more than a few Coronas, I might forget. Default to the BS. Regards, Mike K. >> Gee, its amazing to me someone has the time to come up with something this involved. I'm truly impressed! I'd hate to disagree with you on a matter more sensitive than model building. You might come to my house to give me a whoopin'. Sorry that asking a simple question evokes such hatred and malice. I was simply trying to figure out why one particular item draws so much attention. I can't remember saying people have no right to talk about what they want. In fact, I think I was pretty complimentary to the depth of knowledge here. Thanks for "shaming" me in public on the list. I hope it makes you feel better about whatever it is that so upset you. My sincere apology to all offended by my question/comment, Steve PS-Good choice with Syracuse though. Go SU! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 00:28:56 -0700 From: Mike Kavanaugh To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Club displays BS Message-ID: <39DD7F38.18AE3E16@earthlink.net> Shane said: <> There you have it. Shane. Now all you have to do is to gain the willing cooperation of Mistress Lorna. Good Luck ; < )) Mike K. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 2694 **********************