WWI Digest 2586 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: sho-sho by fedders 2) Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! by Ernest Thomas 3) Re: ot: Jastafarai- MUST READ by Ernest Thomas 4) Re: sho-sho by MAnde72343@aol.com 5) Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Zulis@aol.com 6) Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Ernest Thomas 7) Re: "High in the Empty Blue" $14.98 by "Courtney Allen" 8) Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! by bucky@ptdprolog.net 9) Re: Orthochromatic film - an opinion by skarver@banet.net 10) Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Albatrosdv@aol.com 11) Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! by "Michael S. Alvarado" 12) Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Otisgood@aol.com 13) Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Albatrosdv@aol.com 14) Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! by Ernest Thomas 15) Now - Bishop - was Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Albatrosdv@aol.com 16) RE: Orthochromatic film - an opinion by "Gaston Graf" 17) Re: Now - Bishop - was Re: Rickenbacker's kill total by Otisgood@aol.com 18) ot site by Carlos Valdes 19) Re: Orthochromatic film - an opinion by skarver@banet.net 20) Re: sho-sho by "Francisca e Pedro Soares" 21) Re: Voss first fighter? by "David Calhoun" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:58:35 -0500 (CDT) From: fedders To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: sho-sho Message-ID: On the below message: Is the use of "frog" any worse than the use of 'Hun"? Are these people tyring to ethically cleanse Germans off of the net? On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 MAnde72343@aol.com wrote: > I certainly did not want to start any sort of French bashing, I know about > the Chaut from my late grandfather, who was stuck with one in 1918, and he > never said anything nice about it at all, he wanted to stick it ...of the > inventor, and the staff weenie who got it for the Americans. It was a very > advanced design and concept, just not well thought out; it's successor, the > M1918 BAR designed by J. M. Browning, went on to serve into the 1960s in the > US and is probably still in service in various small armies even today. > Granddad was wounded in the Argonne, and wounded again by a Hun strafer while > being stretchered to the rear, his comment was to the effect that it might > have been different if he'd been ARMED in the first place... > Merrill > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:03:55 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! Message-ID: <39A7EA6A.55A04709@bellsouth.net> Sharon Henderson wrote: > Oh Wow!!! Hey, Washington DC area people!! LOOK! The fabled in markings here...> plane of the great EvH will soon be flying in > our skies! brrnrnrnrnrrnrnrnrnr............rnrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrnnrnrnrnnr....brnnnn... > > And Williamsburg is at its best in the Christmas season... :-) > This is so cool! Very, very cool. The kids would like snow. Can we put in a request? I just hope those a-holes I work for let me take my vacation then. > > As we get closer to time, let's get the details nailed down. Dinner > and grog in one of the taverns sounds wonderful! Dinner if we must. But you know food absorbs all the fun stuff out of the grog. /%b * Looking forward to this trip. Even if stupid MiL is coming along. E. *(cubist drunk) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:08:14 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: ot: Jastafarai- MUST READ Message-ID: <39A7EB6E.42B94AC1@bellsouth.net> Tina Theobald wrote: > > I hardly think one night of meaningless sex constitutes dateing... You're right. It's much, much better than dateing. > > BUSTED... Tsk tsk tsk! Brent, Brent, Brent, Brent, Brent! Remember; Always destroy the evidence. > > The wife of the day dreamer, And a good sport too, no doubt. E. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:26:53 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: sho-sho Message-ID: That was my maternal grandfather, and his last name was Scheer, and he called the enemy "Huns" to the end of his days, (PC had not been invented) although the loss of his only son in the second German Inspired mess may have kept him soured on Germany, when he might have mellowed. Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:32:26 EDT From: Zulis@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: <18.189ff9e.26d94b1a@aol.com> Peter writes: << If all that matters is who wins, why are we studying history and what does it matter if any aircraft are shot down that alone who shot them down? >> Well, one is outcome, the other is process. If we believe that victory is promoted through the shooting down of the enemy, one may wish to record who contributed the most to that achievement. Besides, it is just plain interesting. :-) DZ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:40:28 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: <39A7F2FC.8543D03E@bellsouth.net> fedders wrote: > > If all that matters is who wins, why are we studying history and what > does it matter if any aircraft are shot down that alone who shot them > down? Well since you asked.... In truth, it doesn't matter one lick who shot down whom. But shot down they were, and knowing the details enhances the study. I think I can speak for at least some of us here when I say that the history is just an indirect benefit of engaging in the very cool hobby of plastic modeling, which, imho, is about as much fun as an adult can have until society lightens up in it's views of people running around in the woods wearing green tights and robbing wealthy travelers at arrow-point. E. "I'm Robin Hood, and these are my merry men." "Fagulas?" "No, just merry." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:45:27 -0700 From: "Courtney Allen" To: Subject: Re: "High in the Empty Blue" $14.98 Message-ID: <004401c00f7d$0a69ac00$9444480c@oemcomputer> Craig, Let me in the next day or two pick up a couple copies of the book and check out the book postal rate. I will then let you and Ernest know what the total comes out to (ie. price+tax+shipping) then you can send me payment and you got it! Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Gavin" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 7:17 AM Subject: Re: "High in the Empty Blue" $14.98 > Courtney - If the offer still holds and you're willing, I'd appreciate the > kindness. What do you need from me? - Craig Gavin > > > From: "Courtney Allen" > > Reply-To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:25:17 -0400 (EDT) > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: "High in the Empty Blue" $14.98 > > > > Anyone looking for Flying Press's "High in the Empty Blue", History of the > > 56 Squadron, my local Costco has it for $14.98! I would be willing to send > > copies to those not near a Costco, though this is a monster book and the > > ship costs would reflect it (Book rate is an option). > > > > Courtney > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:08:39 -0400 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! Message-ID: <39A7F997.A453B795@ptdprolog.net> Sharon Henderson wrote: > As we get closer to time, let's get the details nailed down. Dinner > and grog in one of the taverns sounds wonderful! The Northern region will try and make it down there...heck if E could drive in from New Orleans I should be able to drive down there. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:55:01 -0400 From: skarver@banet.net To: Subject: Re: Orthochromatic film - an opinion Message-ID: <003201c00f7e$632d8f40$effe6520@stephen> I am a little disappointed that Gaston has jumped the gun on this important question. As he knows and has reported in a previoous posting, I am working on something of a definitive 'article' about photographic practice in the period of World War I. From my research efforts so far, it is clear that this matter cannot be effectively summarized in a paragraph of opinion, and Mr. Wangeman's note is that--as stated. For instance, he is dead wrong about when panchromatic film was introduced, and is imprecise about how both green and yellow reproduce on prints made from orthochromatic negatives. Since I have been in correspondence with Gaston off-List, I know that his posting is strictly well intentioned, but given the various misconceptions about photographic practice in this earlier period, I believe it will only serve to cloud the issue. Unfortunately, due to an ailing hard drive, I have not been able to deliver the results of my research on the schedule I had first hoped. Noentheless interested List-landers should be assured that I am working on it steadily, and it will be, if I say so myself, will be worth the wait.. I hope my judgment on Mr. Wangeman's opinion will not prejudice Gaston's kind offer to post my article on his Jasta Boelke website. Best to all, Stef ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gaston Graf" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 11:31 AM Subject: Orthochromatic film - an opinion > Dear list members: > > Some of us recently discussed about the usage of ortho film. and the color > of Voss' aircrafts cowling. I asked a friend of mine regarding this matter, > who is an expert in photographing. Being a retired policeman from Sheboygan > WI, Mr. William Wangeman is an experienced photographer. In his job he had > to photograph the locations of crimes, the victims, the criminels... Also he > worked as a draftsman, drawing photofit pictures of criminels after the > descriptions of victims. I copied below what Bill told me regarding ortho > films. > > sincerely > > Gaston Graf > Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: > http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Gaston, > > Well here I am again, your question about Ortho film is very interesting, I > have done a good bit of reading and working with ortho film. It is my > opinion that it is all most impossible to tell what color is which from a > photograph taken on ortho film. first of all, all ortho films are not > alike, some are sensitive to blue only, and some are sensitive to blue and > green. The color of the light used to make the photograph is also very > important, a bluish light such as you may get on a very cloudy day or in > winter with snow on the ground can affect the way the film "sees" color, or > a very warm light such as you get early in the morning or late in the day > will affect the film, so I feel there are just too many variables to try > and determine color from a picture made on ortho film. I do know that the > photos taken in WW1 were made on ortho film, I am certain than panchromatic > film did not come out until much after the war. Another variable would be > the lens, we have no way of knowing what colors these uncoated lens would > pass to the film. In looking at photos of the insignia on the wings of > British aircraft some times the blue circle photographs light and sometimes > dark. Now as for yellow or any warm color they seem to photograph light. If > you look at some of the old photos of planes that were not painted the > fabric after doping would turn a yellowish brown color, which photographs > light grey. I may be wrong but I think that yellow or a shade of yellow > would photograph light. Green always photographs very dark as does red. But > again it is kind of confusing when it comes to blue and yellow. I will > enquire of the Kodak Company and see if their experts have an opinion on > this. > > Take care > > Willy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:19:29 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: In a message dated 8/26/00 11:33:58 AM EST, Zulis@aol.com writes: << Peter writes: << If all that matters is who wins, why are we studying history and what does it matter if any aircraft are shot down that alone who shot them down? >> Well, one is outcome, the other is process. If we believe that victory is promoted through the shooting down of the enemy, one may wish to record who contributed the most to that achievement. Besides, it is just plain interesting. :-) DZ >> OK - I was the one who said that. My point was that arguing about individual kill totals is really irrelevant. Did MvR's or Erich Hartman's kill totals *really* have an effect on the ultimate outcome? I think not, though it had (getting to process) a likely helluva effect on tactics and strategies of the opponents of the time, and quite often a very permanent effect on certain individuals. But whether MvR got 80 or 65 or whatever, really has no ultimate importance. And the same for Fonck, Rickenbacker, etc. (Though I would argue that de-bunking Billy Bishop is still a salutary exercise 80 years later.) BTW, Sandy, this happens to be the official policy of *your* RFC/RAF, who have never officially recognized the "ace", though they have always recognized the group effort (and yes, they have certainly taken publicity advantage of folks like Mannock, Ball, McCudden, J.E. Johnson, Sailor Malan etc., etc.). Cheers, TC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:17:55 -0400 From: "Michael S. Alvarado" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! Message-ID: <39A7FBC2.91DC094D@bellatlantic.net> Yes! A most definite do. Let's keep each other posted as the time nears. Looking forward to this Alvie Sharon Henderson wrote: > >Sharon Henderson wrote: > > > >> Odd or even, we wuv you. It wasn't the same while you were unsubbed. > . > > > >Awe, that's sweet. Thank you. > > :-) And I even meant it! :-) > > >And since yer there, I just wanted to let you and Alvie and Mike know > >that it looks like Clan Heretic will be vacationing in Williamsberg > >during the week between xmas and y2k+1. Let's get together over a glass > >of grog. > >E. > > Oh Wow!!! Hey, Washington DC area people!! LOOK! The fabled in markings here...> plane of the great EvH will soon be flying in > our skies! > > And Williamsburg is at its best in the Christmas season... :-) > This is so cool! > > As we get closer to time, let's get the details nailed down. Dinner > and grog in one of the taverns sounds wonderful! > > Cheers, > Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:23:20 EDT From: Otisgood@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: <47.16a809.26d95708@aol.com> In a message dated 8/26/00 12:21:37 PM Central Daylight Time, Albatrosdv@aol.com writes: > (Though I > would argue that de-bunking Billy Bishop is still a salutary exercise 80 > years later.) For the uninformed among us (which includes me) what does this comment refer to? Thanks. OG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:23:32 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: <7c.a362a8e.26d95714@aol.com> In a message dated 8/26/00 11:42:10 AM EST, ethomas6@bellsouth.net writes: << In truth, it doesn't matter one lick who shot down whom. But shot down they were, and knowing the details enhances the study. I think I can speak for at least some of us here when I say that the history is just an indirect benefit of engaging in the very cool hobby of plastic modeling, which, imho, is about as much fun as an adult can have until society lightens up in it's views of people running around in the woods wearing green tights and robbing wealthy travelers at arrow-point. >> True true true!! Trust E to point us right! :-) TC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:26:59 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Squamble the Squasta! E.von Heretic patroling near the Potomac! Message-ID: <39A7FDE3.6F466214@bellsouth.net> bucky@ptdprolog.net wrote: > The Northern region will try and make it down there...heck if E could drive > in from New Orleans I should be able to drive down there. And there you have it folks. An unsolicited endorsment. Meeting E is worth a drive across country. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:40:29 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Now - Bishop - was Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: <77.8cfd05d.26d95b0d@aol.com> In a message dated 8/26/00 12:26:20 PM EST, Otisgood@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 8/26/00 12:21:37 PM Central Daylight Time, Albatrosdv@aol.com writes: > (Though I > would argue that de-bunking Billy Bishop is still a salutary exercise 80 > years later.) For the uninformed among us (which includes me) what does this comment refer to? Thanks. OG >> I doubt this will disturb the northern members - several of whom pointed this out to me. It is commonly considered now that Billy Bishop was not a "gentleman" whose word was his bond when it came to making his claims from his "lone wolf" missions. In fact, the mission for which he received the VC is completely not reflected by any German records at the field he claimed to have attacked, or any in the entire sector he could have been in that day. Researchers now think no more than 8-10 of his "kills" can be verified and considered real. Therefore the real "ace of aces" for Canada is a far more deserving individual, Raymond Collishaw, followed by an equally-deserving individual, Billy Barker. TC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:57:25 +0200 From: "Gaston Graf" To: Subject: RE: Orthochromatic film - an opinion Message-ID: Dear Stef, I never intended to "stabb your back" with this posting - there is absolutely no reason for feeling disappointed. Like my friend Bill does not have the time to write as frequently as I correspond with this list I believed he will reply much later. I posted Bills mail to this list simply because I believed everybody is as much curious as I am to learn more about this interesting topic of the orthchromate film technologie. Believe me, I am thankful for every little bit of knowlegde I can gather - be it here or anywhere else - and when I find information anywhere else than at this list I am happy to share it with you all. That's why I posted Bills mail. You are indeed welcome to submit your article, Stef, and believe me I am really happy to post it for you at my website and continue discussing this thing with you all again. This list lives through the united knowledge of us all - it is our knowlegde and our will to SHARE our knowledge with other enthusiasts that makes this list a great source of inspiration. But the outcome of a discussion can only be positive if we are willing to accept other opinions, so why shall your judgement of Bills posting have a negative effect on my offer to you to post your article at my website? I can assure you that I am really happy about everybody who wants to contribute to the Jasta Boelcke website. If you can provide more detailed information Stef, even if you can prove Mr. Wangemann wrong, I am sure he will appreciate your efforts because he too is interested to learn more. Now get out of your corner again and stop moaning ;o). in friendship Gaston Graf Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: http://www.jastaboelcke.de > -----Original Message----- > From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of > skarver@banet.net > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 7:16 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Orthochromatic film - an opinion > > > I am a little disappointed that Gaston has jumped the gun on this > important > question. As he knows and has reported in a previoous posting, I > am working > on something of a definitive 'article' about photographic practice in the > period of World War I. From my research efforts so far, it is clear that > this matter cannot be effectively summarized in a paragraph of > opinion, and > Mr. Wangeman's note is that--as stated. For instance, he is dead wrong > about when panchromatic film was introduced, and is imprecise > about how both > green and yellow reproduce on prints made from orthochromatic negatives. > > Since I have been in correspondence with Gaston off-List, I know that his > posting is strictly well intentioned, but given the various misconceptions > about photographic practice in this earlier period, I believe it will only > serve to cloud the issue. > > Unfortunately, due to an ailing hard drive, I have not been able > to deliver > the results of my research on the schedule I had first hoped. Noentheless > interested List-landers should be assured that I am working on it > steadily, > and it will be, if I say so myself, will be worth the wait.. > > I hope my judgment on Mr. Wangeman's opinion will not prejudice Gaston's > kind offer to post my article on his Jasta Boelke website. > Best to all, > Stef > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gaston Graf" > To: "Multiple recipients of list" > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 11:31 AM > Subject: Orthochromatic film - an opinion > > > > Dear list members: > > > > Some of us recently discussed about the usage of ortho film. > and the color > > of Voss' aircrafts cowling. I asked a friend of mine regarding this > matter, > > who is an expert in photographing. Being a retired policeman from > Sheboygan > > WI, Mr. William Wangeman is an experienced photographer. In his > job he had > > to photograph the locations of crimes, the victims, the > criminels... Also > he > > worked as a draftsman, drawing photofit pictures of criminels after the > > descriptions of victims. I copied below what Bill told me > regarding ortho > > films. > > > > sincerely > > > > Gaston Graf > > Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: > > http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Gaston, > > > > Well here I am again, your question about Ortho film is very > interesting, > I > > have done a good bit of reading and working with ortho film. It is my > > opinion that it is all most impossible to tell what color is > which from a > > photograph taken on ortho film. first of all, all ortho films are not > > alike, some are sensitive to blue only, and some are sensitive > to blue and > > green. The color of the light used to make the photograph is also very > > important, a bluish light such as you may get on a very cloudy day or in > > winter with snow on the ground can affect the way the film "sees" color, > or > > a very warm light such as you get early in the morning or late > in the day > > will affect the film, so I feel there are just too many variables to try > > and determine color from a picture made on ortho film. I do > know that the > > photos taken in WW1 were made on ortho film, I am certain than > panchromatic > > film did not come out until much after the war. Another > variable would be > > the lens, we have no way of knowing what colors these uncoated > lens would > > pass to the film. In looking at photos of the insignia on the wings of > > British aircraft some times the blue circle photographs light and > sometimes > > dark. Now as for yellow or any warm color they seem to photograph light. > If > > you look at some of the old photos of planes that were not painted the > > fabric after doping would turn a yellowish brown color, which > photographs > > light grey. I may be wrong but I think that yellow or a shade of yellow > > would photograph light. Green always photographs very dark as does red. > But > > again it is kind of confusing when it comes to blue and yellow. I will > > enquire of the Kodak Company and see if their experts have an opinion on > > this. > > > > Take care > > > > Willy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:04:04 EDT From: Otisgood@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Now - Bishop - was Re: Rickenbacker's kill total Message-ID: <42.9f38fe4.26d96094@aol.com> In a message dated 8/26/00 12:43:26 PM Central Daylight Time, Albatrosdv@aol.com writes: > Researchers now think no more than 8-10 of his "kills" can be verified and > considered real. Wonder if this has any bearing on why his aircraft was not featured in the profiles of Osprey Nieuport Aces book, and why he was hardly mentioned in the book at all. Interesting. Thanks for the info. OG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:22:15 -0400 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: ot site Message-ID: <39A805EA.28A@conted.gatech.edu> I just got the following from another mailing list and thought it might be of interest to some here. Carlos The RAF are commemorating the 60th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain on this website: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/bobhome.html This is quoted from the main page, and explains what it is all about: "These pages will catalogue the official reports of the most important event in Royal Air Force history, the Battle fought over Britain between the 10th July and 31st October 1940. For the first time, the complete Fighter Command Operational Diaries for the period will be published in full, day by day over the actual period the Battle took place 60 years ago. Supporting this official text are a series of pages detailing such facets of the Battle as the Commanders, the Aircraft and the changes in Tactics on both sides as the situation developed. Please bookmark this page, and check back every day for the account of this, the first crucial test of Air Power." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:02:27 -0400 From: skarver@banet.net To: Subject: Re: Orthochromatic film - an opinion Message-ID: <008501c00f87$cd96fd40$effe6520@stephen> Since I have been in most friendly communication with Gaston off-List, I hadn't the slightest intention of suggesting that his post was a 'stab in the back,' nor was it a moan, or a whine, or whatever. I am as interested in the research and considered opinions of others as the next guy. But where an opinion is offered when a fact could be--as in the case of panchro--I feel it clouds the issue, and makes drawing our own conclusions just that bit more difficult. With kindest regards, I'm off to the library, Stef ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gaston Graf" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 2:00 PM Subject: RE: Orthochromatic film - an opinion > Dear Stef, > > I never intended to "stabb your back" with this posting - there is > absolutely no reason for feeling disappointed. Like my friend Bill does not > have the time to write as frequently as I correspond with this list I > believed he will reply much later. > I posted Bills mail to this list simply because I believed everybody is as > much curious as I am to learn more about this interesting topic of the > orthchromate film technologie. Believe me, I am thankful for every little > bit of knowlegde I can gather - be it here or anywhere else - and when I > find information anywhere else than at this list I am happy to share it with > you all. That's why I posted Bills mail. > > You are indeed welcome to submit your article, Stef, and believe me I am > really happy to post it for you at my website and continue discussing this > thing with you all again. This list lives through the united knowledge of us > all - it is our knowlegde and our will to SHARE our knowledge with other > enthusiasts that makes this list a great source of inspiration. But the > outcome of a discussion can only be positive if we are willing to accept > other opinions, so why shall your judgement of Bills posting have a negative > effect on my offer to you to post your article at my website? I can assure > you that I am really happy about everybody who wants to contribute to the > Jasta Boelcke website. If you can provide more detailed information Stef, > even if you can prove Mr. Wangemann wrong, I am sure he will appreciate your > efforts because he too is interested to learn more. > > Now get out of your corner again and stop moaning ;o). > > in friendship > > Gaston Graf > Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: > http://www.jastaboelcke.de > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:24:28 +0100 From: "Francisca e Pedro Soares" To: Subject: Re: sho-sho Message-ID: <006d01c00f8b$2e0c4240$e4f441c2@pc1> Guys, Please forgive my dropping in on this question but i'm getting tired of generalisations. Gaston, mon cher, Please refrain from saying The French, or The German, or the Luxembugeois, or The whatever. Next thing i know you'll be saying The Portuguese ain't worth a crap and they account for quite a percentage of your GNP. There are good and bad people everywhere and here we either tell damned good stories (like you did about your personal experience) or we talk about Voss cowl or we talk about models or any other insteresting subject like Lorena Mackennit or Jethro Tull ;-) but speaking about The this or The that will always be a way of unnecessarily hurting someone's feelings and even though I know you really don't want to do it or even mean it, it's bound to happen. Pedro P.S. Glad to have another representative from another european country on The List. And once again, I really did enjoy your story about the train accident. Thanks for sharing it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gaston Graf To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 6:43 AM Subject: RE: sho-sho > Interesting... Aparently the French sometimes has good ideas but their > problem is that they are resting to long on their laurels while other > continue developement. This is something I noticed from the French car > industry. Years ago they developed a great Diesel engine (Peugeot) and made > the world believe they are the best and only to do that but then the Huns > developed their direct injection Diesels (TDIs) and while the Germans > constantly enhanced their Diesels the French did nothing. > I live in a country where many Frenchmen and women work because they make a > lot more money here than they would in France. But their problem in most > cases is that the quality of their work is inferior to Germans or Luxies > because their mentality is different. While the German says "I must do > better" the Frenchman says "That's good enough". That's why there are more > and more German craftmen being hired by the poeple instead of the French. > While the Huns copied from the French they also enhanced their version of > the product. btw: this is something you soon may read at Jasta Boelcke > because I am currently working on an article about the invention of the > Frenchman Roland Garros which made it possible to shoot through a running > propeller. The Germans wanted Fokker to copy the system but what his > engineer Lübbe did was enhancing the system instead of simply copying it. > I do not want to talk badly about the French here but nobody can deny the > difference. > > Gaston Graf > Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: > http://www.jastaboelcke.de > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of > > MAnde72343@aol.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 12:45 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: sho-sho > > > > > > I certainly did not want to start any sort of French bashing, I > > know about > > the Chaut from my late grandfather, who was stuck with one in > > 1918, and he > > never said anything nice about it at all, he wanted to stick it ...of the > > inventor, and the staff weenie who got it for the Americans. It > > was a very > > advanced design and concept, just not well thought out; it's > > successor, the > > M1918 BAR designed by J. M. Browning, went on to serve into the > > 1960s in the > > US and is probably still in service in various small armies even today. > > Granddad was wounded in the Argonne, and wounded again by a Hun > > strafer while > > being stretchered to the rear, his comment was to the effect that > > it might > > have been different if he'd been ARMED in the first place... > > Merrill > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:40:03 -0700 From: "David Calhoun" To: Subject: Re: Voss first fighter? Message-ID: <010601c00fa6$8528b840$c92f3ccc@oemcomputer> Thanks Gaston. My guess is that Voss's first aircraft was an Albatros D.II, but I have no clue what it would look like! Dave Calhoun -----Original Message----- From: Gaston Graf To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Friday, August 25, 2000 10:22 PM Subject: RE: Voss first fighter? >David, > >I am in contact with the German historical Boelcke society and will ask them >about Voss aircraft and the kill you mentionned. I'll keep you informed but >please notice that the guy I am in contact with only can send email from >work and does not always respond quickly. > >kind regards > >Gaston Graf >Meet the Royal Prussian Fighter Squadron 2 "Boelcke" at: >http://www.jastaboelcke.de > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of >> David Calhoun >> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 11:41 PM >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Voss first fighter? >> >> >> Hi all, >> Last few days not much WW1 modeling information, lots of other unrelated >> stuff! Still no answers about Voss's first aircraft. Here's some more >> info - Jasta Boelcke kill #75 was by Voss on 11/27/16. What >> aircraft was he >> flying at this time? Anyone have a clue as to what aircraft he >> flew before >> getting his Albatros D.III in Feb 1917? >> Dave Calhoun >> >> >> > ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 2586 **********************