WWI Digest 2426 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Two seaters, continued by Albatrosdv@aol.com 2) Re: Info needed by KarrArt@aol.com 3) Pet Peeve #3 by MAnde72343@aol.com 4) Re: RE-8's by "Bob Pearson" 5) Re: Info needed by "Bob Pearson" 6) Pet peeve No.3 by "Bob Pearson" 7) Re: RE-8's by MAnde72343@aol.com 8) Re: Info needed by Chris Anderson 9) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by "Bob Pearson" 10) Re: Cool Model For Sale.... by "Bob Pearson" 11) Re: Info needed by Chris Anderson 12) Re: Info needed by "Bob Pearson" 13) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by MAnde72343@aol.com 14) Re: Cool Model For Sale.... by "Matthew Bittner" 15) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by "Bob Pearson" 16) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by "Matthew Bittner" 17) Re: Cool Model For Sale.... by "Matthew Bittner" 18) Re: Cool Model For Sale.... by "Bob Pearson" 19) RE: Pet Peeve #3 by Shane Weier 20) Re: Two seaters, continued by Matthew Zivich 21) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by MAnde72343@aol.com 22) RE: Cool Model For Sale.... by Sharon Henderson 23) RE: Pet Peeve #3 by Shane Weier 24) RE: Cool Model For Sale.... by Sharon Henderson 25) Re: Cool Model For Sale.... by MAnde72343@aol.com 26) pfalz silbergrau by Andrew Watson 27) Re: pfalz silbergrau by MAnde72343@aol.com 28) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by "Bob Pearson" 29) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by "Bob Pearson" 30) Re: Pet peeve No.3 by "cameron rile" 31) Re: Pet Peeve #3 by MAnde72343@aol.com 32) Salmson Refs by Brent_A_Theobald@notes.seagate.com 33) Re: Salmson Refs by MAnde72343@aol.com 34) RE: Pet Peeve #3 by "Matthew Bittner" 35) Salmson, was RE: Pet Peeve #3 by "Matthew Bittner" 36) Other French two seaters by "Matthew Bittner" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:18:01 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Two seaters, continued Message-ID: <7d.6803eb5.26813989@aol.com> In a message dated 6/20/00 3:33:41 PM EST, mzivich@svsu.edu writes: << You got me on that one. What's a McDD Eagle? Matt Z >> The F-15E Eagle, aka "Mudhen," which can bomb the daylights out of you, then fly rings around you before turning you into a smoking hole in the ground. :-) TC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:20:41 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Info needed Message-ID: In a message dated 6/20/00 1:07:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, canderson@pop.gtrad.com writes: << Were these RG O'Co samples authentic, but misinterpreted (assuming the theory correct), or were they actually counterfeit? >> Fake- through and through. Quite a scandal. Some samples in this collection had dyes and pigments that weren't used in the era; some done with house paint; fabric weaves that were like nothing ever seen on a genuine airplane. Gerrard had a whole fantasy world constructed, complete with a non-existant British flier who's collection this was supposed to have been. Next to the Cockburn-Lange "air combat" photos, this is the biggest hoax ever foisted on the WW I aviation world. I'm no expert, on A/H aircraft, or anything else- I just have the annoying habit of reading every word of every publication that falls into my hands. The A/H scene is a particularly unknown area for me- not that it's not interesting, I just haven't gotten around to it.....yet.......and the whole RG mess, and it's implications for the colors of several nations, has disgruntled me for a long time RK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:34:38 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: Is someone out there in contact with Ray Rimmel? Would someone please steer the guy back OT? He gives us a Datafile on the Buzzard, but has yet to cover ONE French two seater, or the DH-4, So how about some Bregeuts, Salmsons, Voisons, and Caudrons? Someone put a bug in the guys ear please. Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:30:03 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: RE-8's Message-ID: <200006202144.OAA03818@mail.rapidnet.net> There is an article in one of the recent (well last couple of years) journals about the RE8 and how it was a better aircraft and more beloved by its crews than modern writers are given to think. .. Many crews flew it aggressively .. in fact one crew became aces on it. Definately *the* aircraft that best represents the RFC/RAF in WW1 to me. Bob PS Brad Gossen and I got a chance to see Ron Lowry's 1/24 RE8 during my visit in April .. this is an amazing model, by a very talented builder. .. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:18:48 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Info needed Message-ID: <200006202144.OAA03815@mail.rapidnet.net> > Was the motivation for these tests > because of the discredited RG samples, or was it just part of the > restoration project on 101.37? Is there a 2 cent version of the RG story > you can relate? This is part of what has led to the discreditation of RG. . and then other samples were also analyzed. There is a list of them in an article in C&C(INT) which goes into the Gerrard story. > "The aged grays with the greenish/brownish tints were used by Gerrard to make > his "sample", which was picked up by O'Conner." > > Were these RG O'Co samples authentic, but misinterpreted (assuming the > theory correct), or were they actually counterfeit? No ... it seems as if someone would mention to RG that he was researching a particular aircraft or unit or (whatever .. and lo and behold RG would soon come up with a fabric sample relating to the project. It is because of him that the Raben Dr.I was thought to be in blue/white. .. someone mentioned they had a photo of this aircraft and thought it may be blue. . suddenly he had a chip from this aircraft .. everyone else picked up on it and suddenly Jasta 74 (the Rabens) was thought to use blue/white as their markings .. later it came to light that this was actually Jasta 18 and the colours were red/white. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:36:50 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: ww1 mailing list Subject: Pet peeve No.3 Message-ID: <200006202144.OAA03824@mail.rapidnet.net> Okay. . we know about getting Rimell's name right. .. some know about those @#$%^&* striped Camels at Naval Eight. . well here is No.3 It is not a 'Brisfit' ..... WJF Harvey wrote in the very first C&C(GB) "The Bristol fighter (labelled with that ugly nickname 'Brisfit' in postwar years) .. " dunno about 'Biff', but I dislike that term as well Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:45:14 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: RE-8's Message-ID: <3a.6badb65.26813fea@aol.com> Bob, good choice: ugly, sturdy, workmanlike, unspectacular in every way, but doing a good job anyway. By the way, has anyone noticed how few Harry Tates are listed among the various German aces victories? Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:49:04 -0400 From: Chris Anderson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Info needed Message-ID: What an apalling story! What sort of gain would someone like him have been after? Or might it be a strange, exaggerated form of the compulsive liar which is not all that uncommon? Chris >In a message dated 6/20/00 1:07:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >canderson@pop.gtrad.com writes: > ><< > Were these RG O'Co samples authentic, but misinterpreted (assuming the > theory correct), or were they actually counterfeit? >> > >Fake- through and through. Quite a scandal. Some samples in this collection >had dyes and pigments that weren't used in the era; some done with house >paint; fabric weaves that were like nothing ever seen on a genuine airplane. >Gerrard had a whole fantasy world constructed, complete with a non-existant >British flier who's collection this was supposed to have been. Next to the >Cockburn-Lange "air combat" photos, this is the biggest hoax ever foisted on >the WW I aviation world. >I'm no expert, on A/H aircraft, or anything else- I just have the annoying >habit of reading every word of every publication that falls into my hands. >The A/H scene is a particularly unknown area for me- not that it's not >interesting, I just haven't gotten around to it.....yet.......and the whole >RG mess, and it's implications for the colors of several nations, has >disgruntled me for a long time >RK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:54:05 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006202202.PAA04453@mail.rapidnet.net> ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Well, if not Albatros . . . . then FMP (or whatever we are now) is doing many of those you mention below. Jack and I are also talking about a cool new series of books that would be heavy on photos and colour .. we just have to figure out where they will be published. done :-) Bob (who has both the Breguet and Salmson profiled) ---------- >From: MAnde72343@aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Pet Peeve #3 >Date: Tue, Jun 20, 2000, 2:39 pm > > Is someone out there in contact with Ray Rimmel? Would someone please steer > the guy back OT? He gives us a Datafile on the Buzzard, but has yet to cover > ONE French two seater, or the DH-4, So how about some Bregeuts, Salmsons, > Voisons, and Caudrons? Someone put a bug in the guys ear please. > Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:57:23 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: <200006202205.PAA04562@mail.rapidnet.net> > << How does the Brisfit > rack up against the well reputed Salmson and Breguet? >> > > It flew rings around them is what it did. How many fighter aces flew > Salmsons and Breguets, or became aces doing so??? > > TC As much as I would like to support the Bristol here, it must be said that it was in use a year before either of the other two mentioned .. and perhaps if French victory claims were done in a similar manner to the British there would be some aces on these machines. . (there may already be some . . guess I need to look at that volume of Grub Street). The closest parallel was all the Camel victories .. when this was mentioned to an SE5a pilot he said "of course there were more Camel victories .. there were more Camel squadrons at the front." There is also the different role given to them ... however the French aircraft that was given a similar role (ie long range escort fighter) - the Caudron R.11. . was nowhere near the success that the Bristol was. Truly the right aircraft at the right time. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:54:58 -0400 From: Chris Anderson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Info needed Message-ID: someone mentioned >they had a photo of this aircraft and thought it may be blue. . suddenly he >had a chip from this aircraft .. everyone else picked up on it and suddenly >Jasta 74 (the Rabens) was thought to use blue/white as their markings .. >later it came to light that this was actually Jasta 18 and the colours were >red/white. Been wondering for years where the idea of blue came from, it never looked blue to me, thanks for the info. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:00:11 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Info needed Message-ID: <200006202207.PAA04698@mail.rapidnet.net> Apparently he was quite sick, and this gave him entrance to an exclusive circle .. having leading researchers from around the world knocking on ones door is a neat feeling. Bob ---------- >From: Chris Anderson >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Info needed >Date: Tue, Jun 20, 2000, 2:55 pm > > What an apalling story! What sort of gain would someone like him have been > after? Or might it be a strange, exaggerated form of the compulsive liar > which is not all that uncommon? > > Chris > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:03:12 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <77.5ae6a8f.26814420@aol.com> Bob, my sincere apologies, by the way, you may want to talk to the folks at Osprey, they seem to be warming up to WW I... Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:14:05 -0500 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: <200006202214.PAA04654@magpie.a001.sprintmail.com> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:13:27 -0400 (EDT), Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: > It flew rings around them is what it did. How many fighter aces flew > Salmsons and Breguets, or became aces doing so??? How many were allowed? Seriously, what was the Salmson and Breguet's primary mission? C'mon, this is not a fair analogy. How many A-10 aces are there? Or, how many B-25 pilot aces are there? See the difference? Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:13:30 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006202221.PAA05225@mail.rapidnet.net> We are not discussing Osprey ..... that is PP #4 (I wrote to them prior to the two books out now) Bob ---------- >From: MAnde72343@aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 >Date: Tue, Jun 20, 2000, 3:09 pm > > Bob, my sincere apologies, by the way, you may want to talk to the folks at > Osprey, they seem to be warming up to WW I... > Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:17:00 -0500 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006202216.PAA06189@magpie.a001.sprintmail.com> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT), Bob Pearson wrote: > (who has both the Breguet and Salmson profiled) Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:18:56 -0500 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: <200006202218.PAA07612@magpie.a001.sprintmail.com> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:02:08 -0400 (EDT), Bob Pearson wrote: > There is also the different role given to them ... however the French > aircraft that was given a similar role (ie long range escort fighter) - the > Caudron R.11. . was nowhere near the success that the Bristol was. How do you know? Where is the sources to support it? You're probably right, though. However, don't discount this until you know for sure. Gee, why is the French being bashed again? ;-) Speaking of Pet Peeves... Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:42:07 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: <200006202249.PAA06266@mail.rapidnet.net> >> There is also the different role given to them ... however the French >> aircraft that was given a similar role (ie long range escort fighter) - the >> Caudron R.11. . was nowhere near the success that the Bristol was. > > How do you know? Where is the sources to support it? You're probably > right, though. However, don't discount this until you know for sure. FMP French book (and I misquote) When escorting Breguets with Spad top cover success was to be had .. when no Spads were at hand .. losses mounted. However it also says that the combat record against German fighters is unknown and all R.11 units had high morale. So okay. . perhaps not the best choice .. HOLD ON. ... the R.11 is a three-seater .. and is overruled as irrelevant :-0 > Gee, why is the French being bashed again? ;-) Speaking of Pet > Peeves... Gee. . the paragraph you cut was in support of the French. .... do I detect the revisionist hand at work ? Bob > Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:47:16 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CD01A9EFEE@mimhexch.mim.com.au> Merrill says: > Is someone out there in contact with Ray Rimmel? Would > someone please steer > the guy back OT? He gives us a Datafile on the Buzzard, but > has yet to cover > ONE French two seater, or the DH-4, So how about some > Bregeuts, Salmsons, > Voisons, and Caudrons? Someone put a bug in the guys ear please. This is one of our old faithfull discussions and the answer is still the same. For those new to the list 1) Rimell prints what Rimell has. 2) French material is relatively scarce and scholars of French subjects with the output of Grosz (German) and Bruce (British) either don't exist or don't send manuscripts to Albatross 3) Anyone who has the photos (and permission to publish them) and the knowledge and ability to write the text for a Breguet, Voisin, Caudron etc. datafile should get in contact with him immediately - he'd love to hear from you 4) The DH-4 is upcoming, as a special, and maybe even in 2 parts like the Bristol Fighter 5) I agree - I wish he'd publish a range of datafiles on these aircraft - or that I knew where to find the aterial to write them myself Shane ************************************************************** The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. E-Mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:55:44 -0400 From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Two seaters, continued Message-ID: <394FF66F.84E7219F@svsu.edu> Hey! I thought discussion of aircraft on this list never acknowledges anything after 11-11-'18! Matt Z Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/20/00 3:33:41 PM EST, mzivich@svsu.edu writes: > > << You got me on that one. What's a McDD Eagle? > > Matt Z >> > > The F-15E Eagle, aka "Mudhen," which can bomb the daylights out of you, then > fly rings around you before turning you into a smoking hole in the ground. > :-) > > TC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:00:45 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <17.722f3b5.2681519d@aol.com> My aplogies to everyone, and especially to Bob, I seemed to have rubbed a sore spot. I will plead ignorance, I'm new to the list, and was just hoping for the kind of answers I got, which was- why no... ?. actually it's pretty selfish, I've got three Salmson kits: one each of resin, vac and injected, and no good references ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:03:07 -0400 From: Sharon Henderson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: >> And they might not think the F2b was the most fearsome. :-) Or >> the Brisfit, seeing as the Bristol pilots were under orders that >> prevented them from fighting fiercely in response to attack.... > >Do you mind giving a reference for this particular assertion. IMHO it's a >load of rubbish - the Brisfit was flown as a *fighter* and used as >aggressively as any single seater. It was structurally one of the >strongest aircraft of WW1 and once the RFC discovered that it should >be flown just as if it was a scout (but with one or two Lewises to >cover the tail) it became an extraordinarilly difficult opponent. > >Shane Hmmm... I've checked some books, and can't find it. This might be one of those long-held beliefs that one picks up and spouts from time to time.... it probably has some basis in fact, but there you are. I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong. :-) I love ALL planes of this era! Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:13:00 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CD01A9EFF1@mimhexch.mim.com.au> Merrill, > > My aplogies to everyone, and especially to Bob, I seemed to > have rubbed a > sore spot. I will plead ignorance, I'm new to the list, and > was just hoping > for the kind of answers I got, which was- why no... ?. > actually it's pretty > selfish, I've got three Salmson kits: one each of resin, vac > and injected, > and no good references I'm 1/3 of the way into the same boat. I have an *injected* Salmson, reputed to be the worst kit in creation, and no references other than the FMP book to try and create the silk purse out of it. Sadly - I doubt if RLR has the machine high on his list even now :-( Shane ************************************************************** The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Support Centre. E-Mail: supportcentre@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:06:05 -0400 From: Sharon Henderson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: >Sharon is looking at it through Jasta 11 coloured eyes ;-) And.... this would be unusual in WHAT way?? :-) >Sure, the first encounter between the darlings of J.11 and the Brisfit >was a resounding failure for the F.2A's involved - but that was before >the RFC figured out how best to use them. Then the ratio of win/loss >swapped around smartly > >Shane Agreed. I think I would have worded it in a more nation-neutral way -- but I agree.... :-) Pulling your arm then running like heck, Sharon :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:02 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Cool Model For Sale.... Message-ID: As far as the strength goes, that Bristol fr sale is probably one of the rebuilds made possible by the discovery of , I think it was six, fuselages being used as barn roof trusses, back in the late 80's ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:19:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Watson To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: pfalz silbergrau Message-ID: <20000620231905.17636.qmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I just picked up Eduard's Pfalz III and I wanted to do the silbergrau-colored option. Does anyone know what would be a good match or a good mix for match? I use Model Master (acrylics or enamels) and Pollyscale mostly. Thanks! Andy PS I'm new to WWI modelling and this subscription so please forgive any mistakes!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:25:07 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: pfalz silbergrau Message-ID: On my Pfalz, I mixed PS Flat Aluminium aboty 50-50 with a medium gray, but Otis Goodin (check out his Pfalz in the Gallery) dulled his down with a small amount of dark blue. The original was essentially a light gray with Al powder added. Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:27:40 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006202335.QAA08240@mail.rapidnet.net> Merrill, No apologies are necessary. . stuff said on the list is in jest .. if it was really annoying you would have received an offlist blast :-) The only source I have for the Salmson is the FMP book, plus a few articles in the various journals. With luck IM will have a build of the Artur 1/48 Salmson soon, and I will then illustrate some markings based on the 1960s privately published book of Escadrille markings - these are really cool .. ask anyone who saw it in Pensacola. Bob ---------- >From: MAnde72343@aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 >Date: Tue, Jun 20, 2000, 4:06 pm > > My aplogies to everyone, and especially to Bob, I seemed to have rubbed a > sore spot. I will plead ignorance, I'm new to the list, and was just hoping > for the kind of answers I got, which was- why no... ?. actually it's pretty > selfish, I've got three Salmson kits: one each of resin, vac and injected, > and no good references ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:27:44 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006202335.QAA08246@mail.rapidnet.net> > Sadly - I doubt if RLR has the machine high on his list even now :-( RLR doesn't, but I know someone who does :-) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:44:40 -0400 From: "cameron rile" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet peeve No.3 Message-ID: <1C880C2A7E644D115AB40005B80A9E19@cameron.prontomail.com> >dunno about 'Biff', but I dislike that term as well Les Sutherland in his book, "Aces and Kings" wrote; "The Bristol Fighter or 'Biff' was a pretty two-seater biplane, fitted with a Rolls-Royce engine of 190 hp and entirely devoid of tricks. She would not take a mean advantage of you by putting herself into a spin when least expected. She had a good turn of speed, good manoeuvrability, and could carry a good load. In horsy language, she had a mouth of velvet, perfect manners, and no vices. She practically had no blind spots." The F2b appears to have be known as the Biff amongst the 1 Sqn AFC airmen in Palestine. Dont know about the Western Front. Interestingly Sutherland makes reference to the "Yellow Devil" F2b of Paul and Weir and the elusive Turkish Report. Also mentions that C4627 was a cantankerous machine in the hands of anyone else except Paul and Weir. Sutherland also mentions that B1229 earned more decorations than any other machine in the Australian or British forces. Sutherland recalls the number as being 17 decorations. cam Australian Flying Corps - http://members.xoom.com/PointCook/index.htm ______________________________________________________________ Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:52:49 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <13.6db695d.26815dd1@aol.com> I've wanted that Artur Salmson for some time, anywhere to get it beside Vamp? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:53:11 -0500 From: Brent_A_Theobald@notes.seagate.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Salmson Refs Message-ID: Merrill, You can't find enough refs? Great! Go ahead and build it because no one else can really criticize your educated guesses. They won't have references either. Later! Brent MAnde72343@aol.com@pease1.sr.unh.edu on 06/20/2000 06:06:09 PM Please respond to wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Sent by: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu To: Multiple recipients of list cc: Subject: Re: Pet Peeve #3 My aplogies to everyone, and especially to Bob, I seemed to have rubbed a sore spot. I will plead ignorance, I'm new to the list, and was just hoping for the kind of answers I got, which was- why no... ?. actually it's pretty selfish, I've got three Salmson kits: one each of resin, vac and injected, and no good references ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:03:19 EDT From: MAnde72343@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Salmson Refs Message-ID: <8.6a0515e.26816047@aol.com> Dear Brent, Haven't you ever heard that "no one likes a Smart***"? There has got to be a reference somewhere or where did the kits come from? Merrill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:09:11 -0500 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: RE: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006210008.RAA25746@magpie.a001.sprintmail.com> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:49:15 -0400 (EDT), Shane Weier wrote: > 3) Anyone who has the photos (and permission to publish them) and the > knowledge and ability to write the text for a Breguet, Voisin, Caudron etc. > datafile should get in contact with him immediately - he'd love to hear from > you Actually, the Breguet is also to be a special, as some point... Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:16:15 -0500 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Salmson, was RE: Pet Peeve #3 Message-ID: <200006210015.RAA00853@magpie.a001.sprintmail.com> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:15:14 -0400 (EDT), Shane Weier wrote: > I'm 1/3 of the way into the same boat. I have an *injected* Salmson, reputed > to be the worst kit in creation, and no references other than the FMP book > to try and create the silk purse out of it. I just posted what references I have to my sprint site: http://home.sprintmail.com/~tbittners/ I was also sent a photocopy of plans and such from a list member, but with my poor memory I can't remember where the article came from, nor who sent it. My apologies to the person. > Sadly - I doubt if RLR has the machine high on his list even now :-( Unfortunately, I agree. Let's hope the book Bob is working on can find a publisher. Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:25:12 -0500 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Other French two seaters Message-ID: <200006210024.RAA07596@magpie.a001.sprintmail.com> The SPAD 11 was designed as a two-seat fighter, but due to poor performance was relegated to recce only. The SPAD 16 - due to the poor performance of the 11 - was slated off the blocks to be recce. If the war would have lasted longer, it would be no doubt the Hanriot HD.3 would have been a formidable opponent. However, we will never know...it sure looks nice, though. Unfortunately all around not much is known about French machines, especially the two seaters. Gads... Matt Bittner ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 2426 **********************