WWI Digest 2088 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Whom? by "DAVID BURKE" 2) Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser]] by Mike Fletcher 3) New Alberto images by "Matthew Bittner" 4) Re: New Alberto images by smperry@mindspring.com 5) Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser]] by "Bob Pearson" 6) Re: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser by "Matthew Bittner" 7) Re: Whom? by "David C. Fletcher" 8) Re: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser by "Bob Pearson" 9) New photos by Jim Landon 10) Re: Whom (a bit late) by "Nigel Rayner" 11) Re: French 75 in US service painting question by " " 12) Re: Whom (a bit late) by Suvoroff@aol.com 13) Mac Models-1/72 Fokker E.IV by BStett3770@aol.com 14) RE: Top 3 decisions why by Shane Weier 15) Re: Whom? by "Brad Gossen" 16) Re: Whom? by Pedro e Francisca 17) Re: Top 3 decisions why by "Michael S. Alvarado" 18) Re: Top 3 decisions why by "Michael S. Alvarado" 19) Re: Top 3 decisions why by "DAVID BURKE" 20) Parachutes by "David Vosburgh" 21) Re: New photos by Ray_Boorman@telus.net 22) Re: Parachutes by smperry@mindspring.com 23) Re: Aileron deflection on models by Albatrosdv@aol.com 24) Re: Aileron deflection on models by Tom Solinski 25) Re: Aileron deflection on models by Ernest Thomas 26) RE: Aileron deflection on models by Shane Weier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:27:18 -0600 From: "DAVID BURKE" To: Subject: Re: Whom? Message-ID: <006201bf5d19$ff646b80$af93aec7@dora9sprynet.com> What's a good source for info about Poland during and after the War? DB -----Original Message----- From: Tom Solinski To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Whom? >> > Godwin Brumowski was born in Wadowice >> > near Cracow. >> Like Karol Wojtila! > >And MY Grandmother!!!! >Tom Solinski >one of the last FULL BLOODED Polish Americans!! No wonder I like RED >WHITE & blue so much! > >OT there is a 1/72 decal sheet for Polish scouts and fighters (it's up >stairs I'll get the details later) showing that since most of the >pre-uinified Polish cities were in essence city states, each of them had >some variations of red and white markings such as a red Z on a white >field etc. Like I said more details later. > >Thanks Witold for bringing in the Eastern side of the story. >Tom S > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:49:42 -0500 From: Mike Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser]] Message-ID: <387CB0A6.1EB8DE7E@home.com> I think he's more the re-enactor type - he flies a replica Nieuport that he built. (I don't tend to judge peoples pretensions unless they get offensive) > First cousin? Second cousin? Distant relation? Just has the same surname? > I'd love to see the memorabilia, but wonder what light he could shine on N's > life if he never knew him - and he'd have to be over 90 to remember it > anyway. I would assume some distant relation - and I don't think it said he actually knew the ace, only that he was related and had some family memorabilia to display (always encouraged) > Wish it wasn't so hot in this mine - it's making me grumpy and suspicious. > Anyone smell methane..........? > > Shane Light a match - then you'll know for sure -- Mike Fletcher ___ ., mdf@mars.ark.com |-\|^----! ; nieuport@home.com |--n--""*" http://members.home.net/nieuport/ icq=19554083 @ http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/nieuport.html If you don't know where you're going, you're never lost. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:18:28 -0600 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: New Alberto images Message-ID: <200001121724.MAA15598@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Manohmanohman... Since I haven't seen anyone else announce it, there are new images on Alberto's page. A wonderfully done Toko Nie.11. I'm not worthy!! :-) I will also link to these from my French Nieuport page, for whatever that's worth. Matt Bittner http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/misc/ww1fr.htm http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:10:35 -0500 From: smperry@mindspring.com To: Subject: Re: New Alberto images Message-ID: <000701bf5d28$53e42980$390c56d1@default> > Manohmanohman... To which, may I add: "Ohmywowgeemygoodnessgracioussakesalive!" You da man Alberto. Most excellent mastery of card & sprue. Thanks for showing what is possible. sp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:09:40 -0800 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser]] Message-ID: <200001121921.LAA17712@mail.rapidnet.net> > Wish it wasn't so hot in this mine - it's making me grumpy and suspicious. > Anyone smell methane..........? > > Shane Grumpy? Nah. . we never would have known ... There may have been an article in OTF by this Nungesser fellow on his relative. One of his relatives did a piece on him a few years back. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:15:38 -0600 From: "Matthew Bittner" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser Message-ID: <200001121919.OAA16068@pease1.sr.unh.edu> On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:14:56 -0500 (EST), Bob Pearson wrote: > There may have been an article in OTF by this Nungesser fellow on his > relative. One of his relatives did a piece on him a few years back. I believe he either talked, or gave a presentation at one of the OtF's seminar's. If he didn't last time - Bob? - then he must have the seminar before. I think there was a small blurb in OtF about him as well, but it was quite small. Matt Bittner http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/misc/ww1fr.htm http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:30:10 -0800 From: "David C. Fletcher" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Whom? Message-ID: <387CD642.BC048AE0@mars.ark.com> DAVID BURKE wrote: "What's a good source for info about Poland during and after the War?" 'Flight of Eagles' by Robert F. Karolevitz & Ross S. Fenn, Modern Press, Sioux Falls SD, 1974, ISBN 88498-022-7. This covers the Americans in the Kosciuszko Squadron but gives some background as well. An old IPMS/USA Quartely had profiles of Polish Albatrossen as well, but it will take me a little longer to find that. Dave Fletcher -- Visit us at our Home Page: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:30:42 -0800 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: nieuportbuilders: Charles Nungesser Message-ID: <200001121942.LAA18707@mail.rapidnet.net> Not at any of the three I have been to. . Bob ---------- >From: "Matthew Bittner" > I believe he either talked, or gave a presentation at one of the > OtF's seminar's. If he didn't last time - Bob? - then he must > have the seminar before. I think there was a small blurb in OtF > about him as well, but it was quite small. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:36:21 -0700 From: Jim Landon To: calcegh2@spm.it Cc: WWI List , Subject: New photos Message-ID: <387CD7B5.F01B04F7@lmco.com> Hi Alberto, Haven't talked with you for a while, how are you? Time sure flies. While surfing the web on my lunch hour I just now stumbled upon your 6 new photos at http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/Images/Casirati/index.html ... the Nie 11 ... very nice job as usual. But would it be possible to get bigger, clearer photos, as I have a Nie 11 kit to build some day, and your models qualify as reference material! Way behind on reading digests so please reply off-list to TheGreatLandoni@hotmail.com P.S. Did you see my latest photos? http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/Images/Landon/index.html Jim James D. Landon (Jim), Staff Engineer Electrical Systems Design Group, Titan Project Lockheed Martin Astronautics Div. Denver, Colorado, USA Work phone: (303) 971-1038 Work Fax: (303) 977-9738 or 977-8323 Work E-mail: James.D.Landon@lmco.com Company web site: http://www.lmco.com/ Home phone: (303) 683-3335 Personal E-mail: TheGreatLandoni@Hotmail.com Personal web site: http://www.freeyellow.com/members6/landoni/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:56:18 -0000 From: "Nigel Rayner" To: Subject: Re: Whom (a bit late) Message-ID: <001a01bf5d37$1d2df9c0$220c883e@nigelr> Shane the Miner wrote: >Easy. Any three random arrivals at an RFC unit in April 1917 >I'm not much interested in aces. Their stories are *extraordinary* and by >definition speak little of the war experience of the other 99% of humans who >fought and frequently died in that war. I want to know what is was like for >*most* of the combatants. I'm with Shane on this one. For those of you who want to know what it was like for the rest of them, I highly recommend "Winged Victory" by VM Yeates. Yeates was an average pilot whose book is semi-autobiographical and paints a graphic picture of the stresses ordinary pilots were under. It was apparently hugely popular with pilots during WWII. It is also interesting how Yeates paints a picture of almost total air superiority on the Allied side in 1918, with everything except DVII's regarded as easy meat, and the Germans mainly avoiding combat. The real meatgrinder for Allied pilots (according to him) was ground support work. Talking of OT books, I'd also recommend "Birdsong" by Sebastian Faulks, a very graphic depiction of life in the trenches and a good novel. Mind you, it's interesting how modern writers focus on the graphic side of combat (Faulks describes all the grisly anatomical details when characters are killed or wounded), whereas contemporary writers don't. Yeates' book has no graphic descriptions, it focuses more on the mental stresses and emotional side of things. It shows how our modern perceptions differ from those of our forbears. Sorry for the late post to this thread, I'm a digest mode lurker. Cheers, Nigel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:28:47 -0800 From: " " To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: French 75 in US service painting question Message-ID: -- On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:25:55 Matthew Bittner wrote: >On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:44:07 -0500 (EST), wrote: > >> Could anyone give me a hint on the paint scheme for the French 75 field piece as used by the AEF? I need to know just about everything, including seemingly self-evident things such as the color of the carriage, wheels, etc. This is the first artillery piece I've painted. >> >> Any tips on how to make this small-scale gun (20mm, 1/76) look good would be greatly appreciated too. > >Just out of curiosity, whose kit? > > >Matt Bittner >http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook >http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/misc/ww1fr.htm > > > The kit is by Tumbling Dice, available in US from Brookhurst Hobbies. It's a really nice little gun, comes in three pieces: carriage, shield, and barrel. I got it as part of an army pack of 20mm doughboys, but it's available separately. They make a very extensive line of WWI figures. The ones I have are quite nice. If you're interested in field pieces, they appear to have most of the major ones. Limbers,too. Dan --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:53:11 EST From: Suvoroff@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Whom (a bit late) Message-ID: <34.3286dc.25ae43b7@aol.com> I would like to talk to McCudden, because he strikes me as one of the few pilots who really would like to talk airplanes. At least, he is one of the few to talk a lot about them in his memoirs. Otherwise, I would like to talk to two experienced observers, one British and one German, about the neglected business of rear-gunnery. Yours, James D. Gray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:35:45 EST From: BStett3770@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Mac Models-1/72 Fokker E.IV Message-ID: <19.6637bb.25ae4db1@aol.com> Hi Gang Mac Models ( Czech Republic)released a new 1/72 injection Molded Fokker E.IV today. Injection molded with photo-etched parts - Wouldn't have em till tomorrow afternoon. I'll post my "first look" tomorrow. BTW only have 10 (that's all they had at my supplier -sample order) on the way if anyone wants one - $17.25 each Keep Modeling Barry Rosemont Hobby www.swiftsite.com/rosemonthobby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:02:51 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Top 3 decisions why Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CDBD1BDA@mimhexch.mim.com.au> Dave, > > Parachutes were tested before WWI, and used in combat. > Granted that for the > most part they were static-line jobs, but IIRC, free-fall > ones were tested > before or during the war (somebody back me up here?). Even the German ones were deployed by a static line. Free fall chutes may well have been invented, but at the time it was still firmly believed that anyone who jumped would be likely to become unconscious and unable to deploy the chute themselves. > The 'chute was packed > in a fairly small cannister, Have a look at the experimental installation photos in several datafiles. The one I'm thinking of is on a Biff, and looks like an inverted, galvanised iron washing basket - only bigger and shallower. And *not* even fairly small. Shane ************************************************************** The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Help Desk. E-Mail: helpdesk@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:32:19 -0500 From: "Brad Gossen" To: Subject: Re: Whom? Message-ID: <006901bf5d4c$e43772c0$5c8c5ad1@The_Grenade.Workgroup> Also 'Wings Over Poland' By Kenneth Malcolm Murray, D. Appleton & Co., 1932. Another book about the 'Kosciuszko' Squadron from 1919 to 1921. Brad -----Original Message----- From: David C. Fletcher To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Whom? >DAVID BURKE wrote: > >"What's a good source for info about Poland during and after the War?" > >'Flight of Eagles' by Robert F. Karolevitz & Ross S. Fenn, Modern Press, >Sioux Falls SD, 1974, ISBN 88498-022-7. This covers the Americans in >the Kosciuszko Squadron but gives some background as well. > >An old IPMS/USA Quartely had profiles of Polish Albatrossen as well, but >it will take me a little longer to find that. > >Dave Fletcher >-- >Visit us at our Home Page: > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:32:09 +0000 From: Pedro e Francisca To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Whom? Message-ID: <387CF2D8.2819561F@mail.telepac.pt> My Choice? Oscar Monteiro Torres who flew SPADs in SPA 65 and was killed on one after getting the only portuguese (I believe) air victory of the war. Saddly enough, I know nothing about him, except the above and that Guynemer has invited him to join SPA 3, shortly before his (Guynmere's) death and also that he has a street named after him in Lisbon. Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:46:11 -0500 From: "Michael S. Alvarado" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Top 3 decisions why Message-ID: <387D1240.B6C892BF@bellatlantic.net> Parachutes of the day weighed about 40 or so pounds (18 kilos) which was heavy enough to affect the performance of any WWI aircraft. Also due to a number of highly publicized free fall parachute jumping acidents (from balloons), it was also believed that humans lost consciousness rapidly in a free fall therefore parachutes had to be deployed by static line. Therefore, parachutes had to be stowed externally on the airframe (balloon baskets too) so that they would clear the structure and rigging of the aircraft. That meant they had to be mounted on the fuselage turtledeck or underside - very draggy - more so than heavy. Or stowed in compartments/chutes which added additional weight to the airframe. A far cry from the ultra-light parafoils of today. Alvie DAVID BURKE wrote: > Well Shane, > > >> The heads of all the Air services to find out why Parchutes were > >> considered to encourage crews to abandon there aircraft. > > > >..and Dave B says: > > > >> Who not: Anyone in the British Air Ministry who prevented pilots from > >> wearing 'chutes, > > > > I have done a little looking into this, and this is one area where I don't > think that I'm simply full of horse-biscuits. > > Parachutes were tested before WWI, and used in combat. Granted that for the > most part they were static-line jobs, but IIRC, free-fall ones were tested > before or during the war (somebody back me up here?). The 'chute was packed > in a fairly small cannister, and this could be fitted to the exterior of the > aircraft, or the interior (given that the interior of just about any A/C of > the time was already cramped). > > Arthur Gould Lee complains bitterly about the availability of 'chutes, and > that although the balloon observers were issued them, as well as enemy > pilots, the RFC was denied them. I read this somewhere else in a firsthand > account too. > > Now, I know that this smacks of rumor, and a premature judgement or the Air > Ministry, and sounds really, really dumb. I agree, and that was my first > impression too. Who would knowingly send pilots off to die in flimsy > machines that could burst into flames, leaving the pilot to choose between a > fiery plunge or his sidearm (it could be said that Frank Luke misused his > weapon during his shootout). Then I remember that this was the same bunch > that figured out most brilliantly that the best way to take a machine gun > nest was to rush it en masse, and shows how the flower of manhood of > Britain, as well as France and the other countries was almost totally > depleted by the time that the U.S. showed up. > > Tell you what, I'll try and look for the other info. But I take exception > with your points thus: > > 1. Apparently, 'chutes weren't all that bulky and I doubt were likely to > impede performance all that much - and they weren't out to hunt butterflies, > much less arthritic ones (and I don't believe that they suffer from such a > malady). > > 2. A 50/50 chance of survival from a 100% chance of dying and frying is > damned good odds, and there isn't a single schmuck who wouldn't take it > (unless he just got a 'Dear John' letter). > > 3. RFC command was very likely drunk, had advanced gallows humor, and > advanced rear-echelon disease, which is characterized by sloth, low > competence, and a general delusion that everything is fine, and 'don't tell > us any different, or we'll throw our DSC's at you'. > > Regardless of reason, the RFC pilots didn't have 'chutes, and that was > silly. > > DB > > >....and I have a strong suspicion that this business about the RFC not > >allowing chutes in case someone were tempted to live rather than go down > >with the ship is a load of bulldust, endlessly repeated because "everyone > >knows that it is so" > > > >Since I'm a Looong way from my books I can't cite it, but IIRC there was an > >article debunking this in C&CI in the last few years. It's also worth > >considering that the chutes used by the Germans late in WW1 were heavy, > >bulky and unreliable and not (by choice) used by all pilots - and this was > >the best available chute at the time. RFC chutes still needed to be > >installed *outside* and connected to the pilot with a static line - so > >performance issues which may have made the aircraft more vulnerable would > >creep in. > > > >It's *real* easy from the position of 80+ years experience to assume that > >the pilots all *wanted* a chute too - I have read of pilots who considered > >the prospect of riding a broken plane to earth less dangerous than the > >chutes of the time. > > > >Can I suggest this to be a more likely case > > > >1. RFC chute so heavy and bulky a scout fitted with it would be unable to > >capture an arthritic butterfly > >2. Chute so unreliable that pilots wonder if a 50/50 chance is worth the > >performance loss > >3. RFC command not too keen on reducing aircraft performance, cost of a > >marginally useful device, and anyway (jokingly) "that'll stop the buggers > >sneaking off in the middle of a battle" > > > >....but everyone does so like the worst possible connotation on anything > >and to hell with facts. > > > >Just MHO on the issue. OTOH I'd love to see the *full* text of any report > >which accused the RFC's pilots of being likely to jump rather than fight, > >rather than someones *opinion* expressed at second hand or much later (and > >this includes pilots opinions of why they weren't used - the rumour mill > has > >a way of getting most things no better than half right). > > > > > >Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >************************************************************** > >The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential > >and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). > >If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution > >or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are > >requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems > >to the MIM Holdings Limited Help Desk. > >E-Mail: helpdesk@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. > >************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:51:26 -0500 From: "Michael S. Alvarado" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Top 3 decisions why Message-ID: <387D1378.2B5523FC@bellatlantic.net> Until the common stable body postitions were dicovered, falling human bodies tended to spin at high enough speeds to cause "red-outs". This happened to a number of balloon borne parachute jumpers prior to WWI with fatal results. Hence the belief that static lines were the only way to go. Alvie Shane Weier wrote: > Dave, > > > > > Parachutes were tested before WWI, and used in combat. > > Granted that for the > > most part they were static-line jobs, but IIRC, free-fall > > ones were tested > > before or during the war (somebody back me up here?). > > Even the German ones were deployed by a static line. Free fall chutes may > well have been invented, but at the time it was still firmly believed that > anyone who jumped would be likely to become unconscious and unable to deploy > the chute themselves. > > > The 'chute was packed > > in a fairly small cannister, > > Have a look at the experimental installation photos in several datafiles. > The one I'm thinking of is on a Biff, and looks like an inverted, galvanised > iron washing basket - only bigger and shallower. And *not* even fairly > small. > > Shane > > ************************************************************** > The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential > and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). > If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution > or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are > requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems > to the MIM Holdings Limited Help Desk. > E-Mail: helpdesk@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. > ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:45:06 -0600 From: "DAVID BURKE" To: Subject: Re: Top 3 decisions why Message-ID: <004e01bf5d5f$d31c8080$9987aec7@dora9sprynet.com> Shane, Will do. DB >Have a look at the experimental installation photos in several datafiles. >The one I'm thinking of is on a Biff, and looks like an inverted, galvanised >iron washing basket - only bigger and shallower. And *not* even fairly >small. > > >Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >************************************************************** >The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential >and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). >If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution >or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are >requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems >to the MIM Holdings Limited Help Desk. >E-Mail: helpdesk@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. >************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:33:32 -0500 From: "David Vosburgh" To: "WWI Mailing List" Subject: Parachutes Message-ID: <000501bf5d6e$965371e0$71d690d0@Pvosburg> A. G. Lee had an appendix in my ppbk copy of "No Parachutes" where he delved into the reasons RFC/RAF pilots weren't supplied with parachutes. He ultimately concluded that it was largely due to burecratic inefficency; as he put it "It was the collective official mind actuated by intangible prejudice which was responsible." He goes on to say that the RAF, bowing to public pressure after the Germans began using 'chutes, finally put in an order for 500 Calshot parachutes in Sept.,1918, a well-tested design which the inventor had been pleading to have adopted since 1916. Stiff upper lip and all that. DV ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:04:55 -0800 From: Ray_Boorman@telus.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: New photos Message-ID: <200001130305.TAA04522@smtpout.telus.net> Alberto, those are 1:1 scale arent they, you shrink them down after. Sheesh Jim is right your models can be used as reference material. Ray (very jealous in my dreams I might get that good) > Hi Alberto, > > Haven't talked with you for a while, how are you? Time sure flies. > While surfing the web on my lunch hour I just now stumbled upon your 6 > new photos at http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/Images/Casirati/index.html ... > the Nie 11 ... very nice job as usual. But would it be possible to > get bigger, clearer photos, as I have a Nie 11 kit to build some day, > and your models qualify as reference material! Way behind on reading > digests so please reply off-list to TheGreatLandoni@hotmail.com > > P.S. Did you see my latest photos? > http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/Images/Landon/index.html > > Jim > > James D. Landon (Jim), Staff Engineer > Electrical Systems Design Group, Titan Project > Lockheed Martin Astronautics Div. > Denver, Colorado, USA > > Work phone: (303) 971-1038 > Work Fax: (303) 977-9738 or 977-8323 > Work E-mail: James.D.Landon@lmco.com > Company web site: http://www.lmco.com/ > > Home phone: (303) 683-3335 > Personal E-mail: TheGreatLandoni@Hotmail.com > Personal web site: > http://www.freeyellow.com/members6/landoni/index.html > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:06:05 -0500 From: smperry@mindspring.com To: Subject: Re: Parachutes Message-ID: <003701bf5d73$22109ec0$eb0956d1@default> > A. G. Lee had an appendix in my ppbk copy of "No Parachutes" where he delved into the > reasons RFC/RAF pilots weren't supplied with parachutes. He ultimately concluded that it > was largely due to burecratic inefficency; as he put it "It was the collective official > mind actuated by intangible prejudice which was responsible." Also bear in ming the same bureaucratic mindset accepted losses of 2 -3000 men per day as "Normal Wastage". Now I may be wrong, but I get the sense that the average pilot flying combat without a parachute stood a better chance of surviving than the average Tommy "going over the top". With such insane carnage on the ground being "accepted" , is it any wonder that a device to save one life was not seen in proper perspective. sp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:32:21 EST From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Aileron deflection on models Message-ID: <81.3cc04f.25aea145@aol.com> I was just looking at Alberto's models, and went on and perused some others, and I noticed something that people may not be aware of - I think I may be aware of it because I am a pilot and work around 1:1 airplanes. It's aileron deflection. Many of the models I was looking at have ailerons displayed at equal deflection. While many WW1 airplanes did have that - certainly the Jenny I flew in 1979 did! - by at least 1917 I am told they had learned what we know now: namely to have unequal deflection as a way of dealing with adverse aileron yaw. Today, when an aileron goes up, it only goes about 1/3 the deflection of the one that goes down; it was discovered way back in WW1 that any more upward deflection only adds drag. My point is that some of you may be mistaken (which does not detract from the overall high quality of what's to be seen there) and it may be from unfamiliarity with how the 1:1 item operates. When you are doing this, if you are working from a photo of the real thing, check that in the photo if you can - as I said it was something that came about gradually, and one cannot claim with certainty that one type had it or did not. In case anyone's interested, I have had this same conversation with WW2 modelers, where you know going in that the designers already knew this for all those planes. Admittedly a minor point, but all of you do your very best to make accurate representations of reality, so I pass this along as something to add to the checklist. HTH, Tom Cleaver ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:47:22 -0600 From: Tom Solinski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Aileron deflection on models Message-ID: <387D4AC9.4C2D7121@ionet.net> > While many WW1 airplanes did have that - certainly the Jenny I flew in 1979 > did! - by at least 1917 I am told they had learned what we know now: namely to > have unequal deflection as a way of dealing with adverse aileron yaw. Today, > when an aileron goes up, it only goes about 1/3 the deflection of the one that > goes down; it was discovered way back in WW1 > that any more upward deflection only adds drag. then there were the few that the cables only pulled down and the air stream pushed them up, faired in with the wing. So on the ground they both hung down and in flight only the one opposite of the turn would be down. And again there is the Breguet with its spring loaded landing flap, down all the time under 78 MPH. M2C Tom S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jan 1980 21:58:01 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Aileron deflection on models Message-ID: <12D81847.9E7F8BD1@bellsouth.net> Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: (snip) > Admittedly a minor point, but all of you do your very best to make accurate > representations of reality, so I pass this along as something to add to the > checklist. > Well, I too, have my ticket, and therefore am aware of this little tidbit of info. However, I can't ever recall seeing a parked airplane with full deflection in the a-rons. Except for those where the yoke was tied up with the harness(a common practice for those guys too cheap to buy a control lock). And in those cases, the elevators had full deflection in the up position. Therefore, I don't do full deflection on my ailerons. I usually do just a smidge of deflection in the ailerons. Just me own .02 US sheckels worth. E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:02:18 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Aileron deflection on models Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CDBD1BDC@mimhexch.mim.com.au> Tom, > My point is that some of you may be mistaken (which does not > detract from the > overall high quality of what's to be seen there) and it may be from > unfamiliarity with how the 1:1 item operates. When you are > doing this, if > you are working from a photo of the real thing, check that in > the photo if > you can - as I said it was something that came about > gradually, and one > cannot claim with certainty that one type had it or did not. I thought this was pretty well known but it's worth repeating. Unfortunately, I have been dumped on by judges on more than one occasion for the "defect" of unequal deflection, so if you compete you need to second guess whether the judges know what you know. Incidentally, I suspect (by observation of photos) that this is fairly seldom an issue on WW1 machines. Where the aileron control is a simple fixed wire loop (often), pulling one end of the balance wire loop down three inches will pretty much always pull the other end up the same distance ;-) In any case, by keeping aileron offset small, the diference will be small enough not to bother expert or judge, so this is what I do when I'm not sure. There are also aircraft like the early Shorts 184 (?) which have no way to pull the aileron up *at all*, so they adopt a vertically straight down position on the ground with slack control wires. Try explaining THAT to the judges! Shane ************************************************************** The information contained in this E-Mail is confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you receive this E-Mail in error, any use, distribution or copying of this E-Mail is not permitted. You are requested to forward unwanted E-Mail and address any problems to the MIM Holdings Limited Help Desk. E-Mail: helpdesk@mim.com.au or phone: Australia 07 3833 8042. ************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 2088 **********************