WWI Digest 1683 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by "Sandy Adam" 2) Re: Geoff Prentice by Nigel L Davies 3) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by "Bill Neill" 4) Re: Signs of the times... by KarrArt@aol.com 5) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by "Bill Neill" 6) Breguet againRE: Before the Wrights...there were by "Diego Fernetti" 7) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" 8) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by Albatrosdv@aol.com 9) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by K129000@aol.com 10) Another Camel Question by John & Allison Cyganowski 11) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by Albatrosdv@aol.com 12) Sopwith Triplane by "Millen, Alan R." 13) Anyone looking for a challange? by Ernest Thomas 14) RE: Before the Wrights...there were by infosilver@czechia.com 15) It's gone by Ernest Thomas 16) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by Modelhound@aol.com 17) Re: Another Camel Question by "Andy Kemp" 18) Re: Oberursel URII by Mike Fletcher 19) Workbench photo by Matthew E Bittner 20) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by Albatrosdv@aol.com 21) Re: Workbench photo by Ernest Thomas 22) Re: Another Camel Question by "Bob Pearson" 23) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by Ernest Thomas 24) New images by Matthew E Bittner 25) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by Albatrosdv@aol.com 26) RE: Albatros interior colors by Shane Weier 27) RE: Geoff Prentice by Shane Weier 28) RE: Anyone looking for a challange? by Shane Weier 29) DH2 (was Re: Signs of the times...) by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley) 30) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by Ernest Thomas 31) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by David & Carol Fletcher 32) Re: Before the Wrights...there were by Ernest Thomas 33) Re: Anyone looking for a challange? by Ernest Thomas 34) Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... by geoff-smith@cwcom.net 35) RE: Before the Wrights...there were by geoff-smith@cwcom.net 36) Datafile 75 (AGO C.I) by Shane Weier 37) Re: Datafile 75 (AGO C.I) by "Bob Pearson" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:36:41 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <00f701bec70d$085d7f40$1de8b094@sandyada> ><< How do you pronounce Breguet? I have always said it breg + goo. > Judging by the need for an "a" sound to be in it, I have it wrong. >> Bray-Gay. (and the Quatorze (14) is Ka-Torze) Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 18:23:08 +0100 From: Nigel L Davies To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Geoff Prentice Message-ID: Can anybody give me the details of the SMI in which Geoff's last Icarus column appeared? I used to buy SMI regularly but have lapsed, and I would like to order a back issue of this one to read his column. Thanks Nigel Maidstone, Kent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:42:15 -0700 From: "Bill Neill" To: Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: <005701bec70d$cbef1c20$6533c0d8@bill> Practical aviation was well established for about 100 years pre Wright (balloons and dirigibiles), many of the elements of heavier than air flight, like control surfaces, lightweight engines, propellors, were all well known. Probably the first successful man carrying glider was by Sir George Cayley in 1852. The first sucessful model airplane was probably DuTemple in 1857. I got a sketch of DuTemples full size man carrying machine of 1874, if you want a scan? Bill Neill > That is a list of possible firsts that I have come up with so far. Where can > I find more information on the DuTemple monoplane? It looks like a canidate > for a model. I have a picture of a model but I can't make out the wing lay > out. > > -K > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:41:38 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Signs of the times... Message-ID: <9216750b.24b24852@aol.com> In a message dated 7/5/99 4:11:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Suvoroff@aol.com writes: << My Caudron R.11 is done at last. Yours, James D. Gray >> Wow! Pictures! Pictures! Pictures! Robert (the bleary eyed wonder)K. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:50:44 -0700 From: "Bill Neill" To: Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: <006501bec70e$ec31aa60$6533c0d8@bill> August 14 1901, allegedly. All of those he quoted as witnesses in the Bridgeport Herald story of the 'flight' later filed statements denying Whiteheads claims. Bill Neill > I remember this story. From what I recall he may have done it. I think > building planes was his past time. What was the date of his flight? > > _k-129 > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:12:19 -0300 From: "Diego Fernetti" To: Subject: Breguet againRE: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <001001bec648$c2005820$4640a8c0@prens-001.ssp.salud.rosario.gov.ar> May I differ, Sandy? If the french lessons and the english lessons that I had were worth the price, Breguet must be pronounced as "Bre" (like Bret Hallyday, but without the T) + "ge" (like the word "get" without the T, again). As in spanish, the "u" after "g" and before "e" and "i" is silent. Most of the french words must be pronounced without the final letter, i.e. Montreux----- "montrö", Champagne------ "sham-paign", etc. In the case of Breguet, the accent must be put in the last part of the word. Quatorze must be pronounced "Ka-törs". The accent this time should be put at the beggining of the word. Anyway, the french & belgian listees must have the last word..... D. Monsieur modčle reduit -----Mensaje original----- De: Sandy Adam Para: Multiple recipients of list Fecha: Lunes, 05 de Julio de 1999 02:50 p.m. Asunto: Re: Before the Wrights...there were >><< How do you pronounce Breguet? I have always said it breg + goo. >> Judging by the need for an "a" sound to be in it, I have it wrong. >> > > >Bray-Gay. (and the Quatorze (14) is Ka-Torze) >Sandy > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:12:46 +0100 From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" To: Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: <005601bec712$5d5a72a0$af82a8c2@pc0973> It's a little later than these but it predates the Wrights; what about Richard Pearse's effort's near Temuka in New Zealand? At least one got him well off the ground and then deposited him in a hedge He was quite a remarkable chap, indepentently inventing the aileron and variable pitch propeller, and building his own engines without having even seen a motor car. This was all done without benefit of technical training of any sort. Bits of this aeroplane reside at the Museum of Transport and Technology in Auckland, and it's a bit of Kiwi folklore that he flew before the Wrights. In fact he himself later said that they were first, but he was rather more strict in his definition of flying than some other claimants - crashing in a hedge was not flying in his view. Despite the fact that he was a farmer there is no truth to the rumour that his first plane was constructed entirely from baler twine and number 8 wire. He also used some beer crates and old oil cans. Aidrian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:24:46 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: In a message dated 99-07-05 14:15:11 EDT, you write: << It's a little later than these but it predates the Wrights; what about Richard Pearse's effort's near Temuka in New Zealand? At least one got him well off the ground and then deposited him in a hedge >> As with all of these, they failed on *the* major point: CONTROLLED flight. Tom Cleaver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:38:55 EDT From: K129000@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: <44d8fc89.24b255bf@aol.com> In a message dated 99-07-05 14:27:35 EDT, you write: << As with all of these, they failed on *the* major point: CONTROLLED flight. Tom Cleaver >> I believe Pierce did have a control system. Although it involved something simmilar to the Wrigths he had is wired backwards. This is true. The Wrights are remembered for 1) documenting everything 2) control 3) being able to duplicate the feat. I am assuming that, had the Du Temple monoplane worked better, or the Eole worked better, then the inventors would have found ways to control the machine as they progressed. -K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:47:03 -0400 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Another Camel Question Message-ID: <3780FDA7.EA3@worldnet.att.net> Thanks to all who provided such knowledgeable answers. Here is another: The latest incarnation of the SMER Camel has markings that are supposedly belong to Collishaw. Any comment as to the accuracy of these? What unit did Collishaw belong to whiles flying Camels? When the RNAS was absorbed into the RAF, did the RNAS personnel automatically become RAF? Cyg. (Please excuse the seemingly obvious questions.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:00:38 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: <4d47d38.24b25ad6@aol.com> In a message dated 99-07-05 14:42:39 EDT, you write: << The Wrights are remembered for 1) documenting everything 2) control 3) being able to duplicate the feat. >> In a word: success! Tom Cleaver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:11:12 -0400 From: "Millen, Alan R." To: "'WW1 List'" Subject: Sopwith Triplane Message-ID: Hi gang, you guys/guyettes are a great resource! I like to build a given plane, and subject it to obscure markings. I.e., the Fokker D.VII in USAAC markings at Cook Field, or the Camel from the USS Texas. I acquired the Sopwith Baby because the box said it was used by the US Navy. Which leads me to my question: Both the Profile and the Datafile state, IIRC, that the Sopwith Triplane was put to trials in the US. Did it wear US markings at any time during it's sojourn? TIA Alan R. Millen Phone 610.676.1194 Fax 610.676.3194 E-mail amllen@seic.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:24:34 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: multiple recipients of list Subject: Anyone looking for a challange? Message-ID: <37810672.50BD@bellsouth.net> Howdy all, The world must have ended because I walked out of the local hobby shop with a FREE kit today. It's a resin Polikarpov R2. 1/72, no intructions or decals. Mfg unknown. Since it's ot and os(off scale) I don't think I'll be building it in my lifetime. First interested response can have it at my cost(free). If you've got a kit you'd like to get rid of, lmk and I may take it as a trade. However a trade is NOT required. E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 99 20:31:33 -01 From: infosilver@czechia.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:51:15 -0400 (EDT) cameron rile wrote: >How do you pronounce Breguet? I have always said it breg + goo. >Judging by the need for an "a" sound to be in it, I have it wrong. > >cam ( with a flat, low, mumbly and fast Sydney/Blue Mountains accent ) I'd say BRED-GET without D and T: BREGE. R from somwhere deep in throat, of course :) Ivan Subrt (as a Slav no expert on Romanic languages) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:45:06 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: multiple recipients of list Subject: It's gone Message-ID: <37810B42.5B3@bellsouth.net> The resin Polikarpov has been claimed. Sorry if you missed it. E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:00:58 EDT From: Modelhound@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: I was written, << How do you pronounce Breguet? I have always said it breg + goo. Judging by the need for an "a" sound to be in it, I have it wrong. >> I write: About 5 years ago I requested a friend of a friend in France to make me a tape of pronounciation of French aviation terms and names. According to this fellow Breguet is pronounced like "bread" without the "d" then add a "gay", with equal accent on both sylables. 14 is pronounced "cat-oars", or more correctly "ca-toars". I'm going to go out on a limb here and offer to make a copy of this tape for those interested. I will trade these copies for items of interest. Let me know if you want such a copy. Note that the quality of the tape is not very good, he made it into a little portable recorder while sitting in a hotel room somewhere in Paris. You can hear the words OK, with a little patience. Learn how to pronounce Nungesser, Latecoere, Nieuport, Guynemer and more. Mike Franklin Bellingham, WA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:14:18 +0100 From: "Andy Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Another Camel Question Message-ID: <007a01bec723$4f62a440$03000004@675> I guess Bob's nodded off again :-) > The latest incarnation of the SMER Camel has markings that are > supposedly belong to Collishaw. Any comment as to the accuracy of > these? I'll let Bob answer this one 'cos I'm not a modeller, and haven't got the model! >What unit did Collishaw belong to whiles flying Camels? History stuff - I can cope better with this! Ray Collishaw started his Camel flying when he was posted to command 13 Sqn RNAS (previously known as the Seaplane Defence Squadron) on his return from extended leave in November 1917. In February he got transferred to command 3 Sqn RNAS (later 203 Sqn RAF) - who he stayed with until he had done with combat, and was transferred to Home Establishment in September 1918. Markings buff? He only "scored" with two Camels, B6390 (2 victories with 13 Sqn), and D3417 (19 victories with 203 Sqn). I'm sure Bob will have done a profile of D3417 - a very well known machine, and well photographed and documented. > When the RNAS was absorbed into the RAF, did the RNAS personnel > automatically become RAF? Yes. No doubt some clever soul will know of some exception, but generally - yes. Andy Kemp www.crossandcockade.com Society of WW1 Aero Historians ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:21:40 -0700 From: Mike Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Oberursel URII Message-ID: <378113D4.DD0D05D2@mars.ark.com> http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/OberurselUR2d.gif This was a copy of the 110 LeRhone with minor differences. John C Glaser wrote: > > Does anyone know a good source for drawings / close up photos of the UR II? > I'm particularly interested in the valve gear assemblies. I already have > the Dr.1 Datafile and Dr.1 special and they have a few good shots. Also > have the shot from the USAFM page. > > Can anybody help? > > Thanks. > > - JCG -- Mike Fletcher ___ ., mdf@mars.ark.com |-\|^----! ; mikef@sparc.nic.bc.ca |--n--""*" icq=19554083 @ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:27:45 -0500 From: Matthew E Bittner To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Workbench photo Message-ID: <19990705.152746.-87353.0.mbittner@juno.com> Okay, memory is once again failing. Who's the chap who has the site with the workbench photo's? I have one ready and waitin'... Matt Bittner http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook http://www.discoveromaha.com/community/groups/plasticmodelers/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:31:09 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <2077ab7b.24b2700d@aol.com> Breguet: pr - breh-zhay. Tom C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 15:42:05 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Workbench photo Message-ID: <3781189D.89A@bellsouth.net> Matthew E Bittner wrote: > > Okay, memory is once again failing. Who's the chap who has the site with > the workbench photo's? I have one ready and waitin'... Think it was Len Endy, iirc. And I took a couple shots of my new bench today as well. Will be sending em off when they get developed. E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:38:54 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Another Camel Question Message-ID: <199907052102.OAA14825@mail.rapidnet.net> > The latest incarnation of the SMER Camel has markings that are > supposedly belong to Collishaw. Any comment as to the accuracy of > these? What unit did Collishaw belong to whiles flying Camels? Unit marking of a white ring on the aft fuselage? Personal marking of a white outlined blue band? D3417? Those are Collishaw's markings while in command of 3N/203 Sqn. > When the RNAS was absorbed into the RAF, did the RNAS personnel > automatically become RAF? Usually, although some chose to remain in the RN. Richard Bell-Davies for example went on to develop carrier operating techniques. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:18:26 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <37812122.60D3@bellsouth.net> Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: > > Breguet: pr - breh-zhay. I vote foe 'Breeje-wet'. But I'm a man who doesn't like 'ja-LOP-pin-ohs' on my 'queezy-dill-ahs', washed down with a glass of 'Per-nod'. E. S-car-gots anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:17:37 -0500 From: Matthew E Bittner To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: New images Message-ID: <19990705.161738.-163293.0.mbittner@juno.com> Just uploaded some digital pictures of my SOP 287 Strutter. Go to: http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook/ww1_fr.html I also had new digital images taken of my Gabriel D.VII, and I will upload those in a few. Matt Bittner http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook http://www.discoveromaha.com/community/groups/plasticmodelers/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:21:12 EDT From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: In a message dated 99-07-05 17:19:57 EDT, you write: << I vote foe 'Breeje-wet'. But I'm a man who doesn't like 'ja-LOP-pin-ohs' on my 'queezy-dill-ahs', washed down with a glass of 'Per-nod'. E. >> No wonder no one can ever understand you fellers down thah in N'Awlins. :-) Tom C ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:23:47 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Albatros interior colors Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CD04117E@mimhexch.mim.com.au> D > I wonder if the cockpit items in the early Albatros fighters > whose cowlings > and struts were painted light gray were painted in the same > color too. Fair bet IMHO Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:25:57 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Geoff Prentice Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CD04117F@mimhexch.mim.com.au> Nigel > Can anybody give me the details of the SMI in which Geoff's > last Icarus > column appeared? I used to buy SMI regularly but have lapsed, and I > would like to order a back issue of this one to read his column. > Unless someone beats me to it - sure. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:31:01 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Anyone looking for a challange? Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CD041180@mimhexch.mim.com.au> EtH offers: > First interested response can have it at my cost(free). If > you've got a kit you'd like to get rid of, lmk and I may > take it as a trade. You think someone is going to admit to off topicary around here and not get soundly raspberried? PTTHHhwwwwtttt! Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:42:32 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: DH2 (was Re: Signs of the times...) Message-ID: James (who must be insane) writes: Current project; a 1/144th scale DH-2. The rigging on this thing just >never ends, does it? Whoa, are you nuts?!? BTW, is it a wargame piece? Who is the manufacturer? Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:39:08 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <378125FC.7C81@bellsouth.net> Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: > No wonder no one can ever understand you fellers down thah in N'Awlins. :-) Incidently, NO ONE here says 'N'Awlins'. We say 'NuOrlins'. E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:27:47 -0700 From: David & Carol Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <37811543.2017@mars.ark.com> Ernest Thomas wrote: > > Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: > > > > Breguet: pr - breh-zhay. > > I vote foe 'Breeje-wet'. But I'm a man who doesn't like 'ja-LOP-pin-ohs' > on my 'queezy-dill-ahs', washed down with a glass of 'Per-nod'. > E. > S-car-gots anyone? Ah, the Ugly American tradition continues in the butchery of foreign languages! The right answer has already been published "Bre Gay" is close enough for Anglophone ears. Dave Fletcher (je peux parler la langue francaise apres deux ou trois verres de vin) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:58:21 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <37812A7D.2D76@bellsouth.net> David & Carol Fletcher wrote: > > Ernest Thomas wrote: > > > > Albatrosdv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > Breguet: pr - breh-zhay. > > > > I vote foe 'Breeje-wet'. But I'm a man who doesn't like 'ja-LOP-pin-ohs' > > on my 'queezy-dill-ahs', washed down with a glass of 'Per-nod'. > > E. > > S-car-gots anyone? > > Ah, the Ugly American tradition continues in the butchery of foreign > languages! More of a sport than a tradition for me. ;) And what does being ugly have to do with it anyway? E. Les salons de la ville de Trieste Sont vaseux, suraigus, et funestes; Parmi les grandes chaises On cause des malaises Des estropiements, et des pestes. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:59:53 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Anyone looking for a challange? Message-ID: <37812AD9.497B@bellsouth.net> Shane Weier wrote: > You think someone is going to admit to off topicary around here and not get > soundly raspberried? PTTHHhwwwwtttt! He already has(off list), and it took him less than ten minutes. PPTTHHHWWWWWTTTT!!!! :) E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:12:04 +0100 From: geoff-smith@cwcom.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Before the Wrights...there were.... Message-ID: <0ebf12808220579HAL9000@cwcom.net> Bill Neill wrote : > Probably the first successful man carrying glider was by Sir George > Cayley > in 1852. I read today that the copy of this is being restored and will (their words) fly later this year at Elvington, Yorkshire. Think I'll have to make plans for that event. Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:13:46 +0100 From: geoff-smith@cwcom.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: Before the Wrights...there were Message-ID: <016461010220579BISHOP@cwcom.net> > >Eole was the french traduction of the name of the god of wind > >in antic Greece > >pronounce "a" (like Breguet) + "ol" (+ french accent) > > > How do you pronounce Breguet? I have always said it breg + goo. > Judging by the need for an "a" sound to be in it, I have it wrong. > > > > > > cam ( with a flat, low, mumbly and fast Sydney/Blue Mountains accent ) > > ______________________________________________________________ > Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com Pronounced Bregay with the throaty R. Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:11:37 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi'" Subject: Datafile 75 (AGO C.I) Message-ID: <65C968E11318D311B0BD0060B06865CD041181@mimhexch.mim.com.au> Hello all, I've been slowly working through the latest datafile and have concluded that I disagree with Ray Rimells interpretation of the aircraft colour. Tell me if this line of reasoning makes sense. 1. There are 82 photos in the book. Of these, six show the C.I prototype, and three show the C.Iw prototype 2. The photos of the two prototypes show dark coloured booms, *every* other shows light coloured booms 3. RLR notes that the dark booms are caused by the type of film used. He means orthochromatic film, which has low sensitivity to the warm end of the spectrum and therefore shows yellow wood darker than expected. 4. RLR contends that the aircraft all had wood coloured or buff painted booms and fuselage on the basis of an eye witness description. now.... Given that ortho film was far more widely available in the period, are we to assume that it was *only* used on two occasions, to photograph the prototypes, and that in every other case the rarer panchromatic film was used? Or (flicking quickly to the LVG C.VI datafile where *all* the fuselages are dark, again according to RLR due the ortho film) that panchromatic film was kept exclusively for photographing AGO fuselages while Ortho film was kept for photographing LVG's ? How were the boom shells made? Looking at the photos of the prototype I see what may be diagonal lines suggesting some form of strip over former manufacture similar to that used by Pfalz though the bands look wider. If this is what I'm seeing on the prototype, why can't I see it on all the others? Frankly, his reasoning is highly inconsistent. I'm betting that the AGO has one of the early painted finishes, and that the prototypes were not painted. This explains all the above. Of course, I may well be entirely wrong, but I'm used to that. Oh, incidentally, in one caption RLR mentions the use of OrthoGRAPHIC film. I have a shelf full of it at work. Orthographic film is orthochromatic (not sensitive to red so I can use it in the darkroom) but also of extremely high contrast. It's used to make copies which must have just Black and White, and no grey shades whatsoever - in my case to make masks to expose and etch circuit boards but also used to make masks for making etched brass details. He *means* orthochromatic, if the photo was made with orthographic film it would look like a bad pen and ink sketch.. Just a nitpick, but that's my mood ;-) Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 15:21:53 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Datafile 75 (AGO C.I) Message-ID: <199907052233.PAA17279@mail.rapidnet.net> Send Rimell a letter . . . Bob ---------- >From: Shane Weier >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Datafile 75 (AGO C.I) >Date: Mon, Jul 5, 1999, 3:12 PM > > Hello all, > > I've been slowly working through the latest datafile and have concluded that > I disagree with Ray Rimells interpretation of the aircraft colour. Tell me > if this line of reasoning makes sense. > > 1. There are 82 photos in the book. Of these, six show the C.I prototype, > and three show the C.Iw prototype > 2. The photos of the two prototypes show dark coloured booms, *every* other > shows light coloured booms > 3. RLR notes that the dark booms are caused by the type of film used. He > means orthochromatic film, which has low sensitivity to the warm end of the > spectrum and therefore shows yellow wood darker than expected. > 4. RLR contends that the aircraft all had wood coloured or buff painted > booms and fuselage on the basis of an eye witness description. > > now.... > > Given that ortho film was far more widely available in the period, are we to > assume that it was *only* used on two occasions, to photograph the > prototypes, and that in every other case the rarer panchromatic film was > used? > > Or (flicking quickly to the LVG C.VI datafile where *all* the fuselages are > dark, again according to RLR due the ortho film) that panchromatic film was > kept exclusively for photographing AGO fuselages while Ortho film was kept > for photographing LVG's ? > > How were the boom shells made? Looking at the photos of the prototype I see > what may be diagonal lines suggesting some form of strip over former > manufacture similar to that used by Pfalz though the bands look wider. If > this is what I'm seeing on the prototype, why can't I see it on all the > others? > > Frankly, his reasoning is highly inconsistent. I'm betting that the AGO has > one of the early painted finishes, and that the prototypes were not painted. > This explains all the above. > > Of course, I may well be entirely wrong, but I'm used to that. > > Oh, incidentally, in one caption RLR mentions the use of OrthoGRAPHIC film. > I have a shelf full of it at work. Orthographic film is orthochromatic (not > sensitive to red so I can use it in the darkroom) but also of extremely high > contrast. It's used to make copies which must have just Black and White, and > no grey shades whatsoever - in my case to make masks to expose and etch > circuit boards but also used to make masks for making etched brass details. > He *means* orthochromatic, if the photo was made with orthographic film it > would look like a bad pen and ink sketch.. Just a nitpick, but that's my > mood ;-) > > Shane ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1683 **********************