WWI Digest 1640 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: #4, long response to Re: IM Update 3. by John & Allison Cyganowski 2) Re: the Life of a Flight Marking by John & Allison Cyganowski 3) Re: Art by "Andy Kemp" 4) Re: Jenny Engine by Ernest Thomas 5) Re: Art by "Brad Gossen" 6) Re: IM Update 3. by Ernest Thomas 7) Re: Art by Ernest Thomas 8) Re: IM Update 3. by "Robert Johnson" 9) Re: IM Update 3. by smperry@mindspring.com 10) Re: Art by BEN8800@aol.com 11) Sierra 20% off Sale extended thru June by "Robert Norgren" 12) Jenny once more by BEN8800@aol.com 13) Jenny Photos by BEN8800@aol.com 14) Re: Jenny once more by Ernest Thomas 15) Re: Art by bucky@ptdprolog.net 16) Re: Art by bucky@ptdprolog.net 17) Chidlaw-Roberts (was Re: Art) by "Bob Pearson" 18) Re: Art by "Bob Pearson" 19) Re: Art by bucky@ptdprolog.net 20) Re: Dr 1 by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 21) Re: Art by "Alberto Rada" 22) Re: Dr 1 by John & Allison Cyganowski 23) Re: Art by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 24) Re: Jenny once more by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 25) Re: Dr 1 by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 26) Re: Dr 1 by John & Allison Cyganowski ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:02:21 -0400 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: #4, long response to Re: IM Update 3. Message-ID: <3763F22D.358D@worldnet.att.net> smperry@mindspring.com wrote: > > > Sorry if I've rattled too much, but doing the same details on 4 engines > leaves one time to consider the rest of the project at length. > > sp Keep these updates coming. It's interesting and on topic. Besides, vicarious modeling is all I can manage these days. ;-) Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:12:09 -0400 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: the Life of a Flight Marking Message-ID: <3763F479.1E5D@worldnet.att.net> cameron rile wrote: > > How often did flight markings on a particular aircraft change? Was a > Serial and flight marking matched for all of the aircrafts life at > that squadron? > > The reason I ask is I was matching serials of Sopwith Snipes from 4 > AFC with photo's. There is a picture of E8069 (Flight marking "2") > at Bickendorff, Cologne in 1919 ( jan - feb ) and Thomas Baker flew > this aircraft on the 26th of Oct 1918 when he gained a victory over > a DVII. Baker was shot down and killed in E8062 a week later in a > scrap with Jasta 2, which is probably why E8069 survived. > > What are the chances that E8069 had the "2" flight marking in > Oct 1918 as well as Jan-Feb 1919? > > cam > I can't comment specificly on your example of interest. However, reading "High in the Empty Blue" gives me the impression that ships floating around btw flights and squadrons was not very unusual. This probably occurred as a result of repair work being done in depots etc, and some flights being under strength pilot wise, while others had the pilots and not the machines. There is at least one photographed example of a ship from one flight serving with a different flight, while still carrying somr of its former markings. Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:20:57 +0100 From: "Andy Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <007b01beb5d2$10688f00$03000004@675> How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? Andy K ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: 13 June 1999 14:52 Subject: Re: Art > In a message dated 6/12/99 10:15:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bucky@ptdprolog.net writes: > > < Mike Muth >> > > That other signature looks like R.F. Chedle-Rhots or something like that. > Hard to make it out. > > Ben > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:42:32 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Jenny Engine Message-ID: <376409A8.3688@bellsouth.net> BEN8800@aol.com wrote: > I don't know that much about engines. What is the effect of the heated air > and is it more common for the engine with or without the connecting pipes? The heated air is to prevent carb ice. An aircraft that has an engine without carb heat would be a death trap. Assuming the engine has a carburator of course. Btw, you'll lose about 100 to 200 RPM's when you turn in the carb heat. At least on Lycomings, Don't know how many on OX's. E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:43:36 -0400 From: "Brad Gossen" To: Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <199906131945.PAA08210@mail5.globalserve.net> Cecil Lewis? ---------- > From: Andy Kemp > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Art > Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 3:21 PM > > How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? > > Andy K > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: 13 June 1999 14:52 > Subject: Re: Art > > > > In a message dated 6/12/99 10:15:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > bucky@ptdprolog.net writes: > > > > < > Mike Muth >> > > > > That other signature looks like R.F. Chedle-Rhots or something like > that. > > Hard to make it out. > > > > Ben > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:47:28 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: IM Update 3. Message-ID: <37640AD0.1428@bellsouth.net> Len Smith wrote: > > Now that sp has almost finished his four engines, I wonder if he has seen > Engines & Things Part No. ENG 72128 Argus 6 Cylinder inline ,110-150hp for > Sikorski Ilya Mouromets. Price $7.95 for four engine from Rolls Models. > Just a passing thought! Hear that? That's the sound of a man screaming in profound agony. Steve, buddy, just think of the many pleasurable hours you spent on these bad boys, with emphasis on the pleasurable. E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:55:32 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <37640CB4.2B3F@bellsouth.net> BEN8800@aol.com wrote: > > Are you guys and gals (are there gals among us?) into art. I've been doing a bit of painting lately. My project for this weekend was a one bedroom apartment in the French Quarter. :) E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:03:02 -0500 From: "Robert Johnson" To: Subject: Re: IM Update 3. Message-ID: <002e01beb5c6$fb0f7980$05f99ed0@robjohn.swdata.com> I don't know if he has but I'll be willing to bet that the other 4-5 people building this kit on the list are. I know I am. Thanks for the tip. rob johnson -----Original Message----- From: Len Smith To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 10:55 AM Subject: IM Update 3. >Now that sp has almost finished his four engines, I wonder if he has seen >Engines & Things Part No. ENG 72128 Argus 6 Cylinder inline ,110-150hp for >Sikorski Ilya Mouromets. Price $7.95 for four engine from Rolls Models. >Just a passing thought! > >Happy Modelling Len. > >Len Smith >http://home.clara.net/lensmith > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:09:19 -0400 From: smperry@mindspring.com To: Subject: Re: IM Update 3. Message-ID: <002001beb5d8$9fa1d860$622845cf@smp> > I don't know if he has but I'll be willing to bet that the other 4-5 people > building this kit on the list are. I know I am. Thanks for the tip. > > rob johnson ROTFL sp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:36:55 EDT From: BEN8800@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: In a message dated 6/13/99 3:47:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bigglesrfc@globalserve.net writes: << How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? >> Yes, that looks what the signature is. Now who is he? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:46:25 -0400 From: "Robert Norgren" To: Subject: Sierra 20% off Sale extended thru June Message-ID: <000901beb5dd$cece9ec0$72b71b26@vucqpqlj> Our Sierra 20% off sale has been extended thru June. I'm also contemplating some new WW kits. Won't say anymore now, but I'd be interested in hearing any preferences... Bob Norgren Sierra Scale Models 2010 Douglass Blvd #1 Louisville KY 40205 phone: 502 451-3745 email: starfusion@earthlink.net For unique 1/48 and 1/72 scale vacform aircraft kits, books and decals, and Aeroclub and Dynavector kits, visit our website at http://sierrascale.hypermart.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:49:44 EDT From: BEN8800@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Jenny once more Message-ID: <827ba113.24957368@aol.com> Just when I think I got it all, something else pops up. With my mind on one thing I forget the other details. I have some drawings and photos which shows the rudder foot bars to be either wood or metal. The Jenny in College Park has wooden bars so I want to go with that because laser cut wood is easier and cheaper than castings. Now, Nieto plans shows the joy sticks to have a crook in them so I assumed they were metal. However the joysticks in College park are wood. But dammit, when I was over there I did not see if the crook was in it. Has anyone seen a wood joystick with a crook (bend) in it as Nieto shows? Seems the joystick would have to be carved or laminated to get that shape. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:59:26 EDT From: BEN8800@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Jenny Photos Message-ID: Please bear with me guys. My brain sometimes gets lost. Have been so overwhelmed with paper lately I misplaced some of my e-mail. Who sent me the great photo of the "nude" Jenny? What museum is this aircraft displayed at? Also, would you give me permission to use the photo in my instruction manual for the Jenny kit? Will give full credit. I am also acknowledging the entire wwi group in general for helping me with this project. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:04:39 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Jenny once more Message-ID: <37641CE7.4084@bellsouth.net> BEN8800@aol.com wrote: > > Just when I think I got it all, something else pops up. With my mind on one > thing I forget the other details. The sticks in the Jenny at NMNA are wood without the crook. They look almost like inverted baseball bats, but not as heavy at the business end. But the top of the j-sticks are knobbed just like a baseball bat. Something turned on a lathe to be sure. As for the pedals, NMNA has wood pedals as does the example in one of my books. In short, wood is good. :) Hth, E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:08:15 -0400 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <37641DBE.1351755D@ptdprolog.net> Andy That may be it. The initials that preceed it are R L(?) Who was this guy? tia Mike Muth Andy Kemp wrote: > How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? > > Andy K > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: 13 June 1999 14:52 > Subject: Re: Art > > > In a message dated 6/12/99 10:15:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > bucky@ptdprolog.net writes: > > > > < > Mike Muth >> > > > > That other signature looks like R.F. Chedle-Rhots or something like > that. > > Hard to make it out. > > > > Ben > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:09:39 -0400 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <37641E13.102923B5@ptdprolog.net> Nope. Old Gwilym's handwrtitng was pretty good. He flew DH-2s and I'm sure something later in the war. thanks. Mike Muth Brad Gossen wrote: > Cecil Lewis? > > ---------- > > From: Andy Kemp > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: Art > > Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 3:21 PM > > > > How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? > > > > Andy K > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Sent: 13 June 1999 14:52 > > Subject: Re: Art > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/12/99 10:15:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > bucky@ptdprolog.net writes: > > > > > > < > > Mike Muth >> > > > > > > That other signature looks like R.F. Chedle-Rhots or something like > > that. > > > Hard to make it out. > > > > > > Ben > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:22:53 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Chidlaw-Roberts (was Re: Art) Message-ID: <199906132130.OAA21041@mail.rapidnet.net> ATT says " born in May 1896, joined the RFC from Sandham in May 1915 and became an observer with 2 Sqn flying with this unit for six months on teh Western Front. he then trained as a pilot and joined 18 Sqn, completing eight months of operations, mainly at night, before being posted to 60 Sqn to fly SE5as in August 1917. On 16 September he shot down Ltn Alfredf bauer of Jasta 17 and on september 23 was involved in teh last heroic fight of Werner Voss; in fact Vos put several bullets into Chidlaw's rudder before 56 Sqn came to the resue. He was later promtoed Captain awarded an MC, and on 9 January 1918 he shared in shooting down Ltn Max Muller, the 36 victory ace and commnder of Jaasta B. Posted home for a rest in january, he served with 28 TS before returning to France to tkae command of A Flihht, 40 Sqn in summer 1918. He shared in teh desctruction of a German kite balloon, bringing his score to ten. He was one of the very few pilots to fly operationally in every year of the war from 1915 to 1918. In 1919 he served in Russia. He died on 1 June 1989." There is also an article by him in an issue of C&C(GB) Bob ---------- >From: bucky@ptdprolog.net >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Art >Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999, 2:09 PM > >Andy > That may be it. The initials that preceed it are R L(?) Who was this >guy? >tia >Mike Muth > > >Andy Kemp wrote: > >> How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? >> >> Andy K >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Sent: 13 June 1999 14:52 >> Subject: Re: Art >> >> > In a message dated 6/12/99 10:15:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> > bucky@ptdprolog.net writes: >> > >> > <> > Mike Muth >> >> > >> > That other signature looks like R.F. Chedle-Rhots or something like >> that. >> > Hard to make it out. >> > >> > Ben >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:30:07 -0700 From: "Bob Pearson" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <199906132138.OAA21179@mail.rapidnet.net> SE5a with No.40 Sqn .. it is his SE5a on the cover of the SE5a Datafile special with the b/w striped struts, white wheel covers and whoite outlined black 'K' on the fuselage. Bob ---------- >From: bucky@ptdprolog.net >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Art >Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999, 2:11 PM > >Nope. Old Gwilym's handwrtitng was pretty good. He flew DH-2s and I'm sure >something later in the war. >thanks. >Mike Muth > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:41:55 -0400 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <376433B3.477E24EE@ptdprolog.net> Bob Thanks for the info on Lewis and Chidlaw-Roberts. That signature has been driving me nuts for years! Mike Muth ps Oh yeah, on that last post I should have referenced the 5th Amendment. Do you have something like that in Canada? Bob Pearson wrote: > SE5a with No.40 Sqn .. it is his SE5a on the cover of the SE5a Datafile > special with the b/w striped struts, white wheel covers and whoite outlined > black 'K' on the fuselage. > > Bob > ---------- > >From: bucky@ptdprolog.net > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: Art > >Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999, 2:11 PM > > > > >Nope. Old Gwilym's handwrtitng was pretty good. He flew DH-2s and I'm sure > >something later in the war. > >thanks. > >Mike Muth > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Dr 1 Message-ID: <199906140008.RAA14227@compass.OregonVOS.net> Cyg writes: snips- >No evidence other than Durkota's profile on his poster. He represents it >as I have indicated. He claims it was painted red subsequently, but >that no victories were scored in this scheme. Thanks for the additional info. >I have seen a number of photos of Tripes, which are supposed to belong >to MVR, but except for 102/17, no serials have been visible in any of >these photos. The serials are visible on photos of 127/17 and 152/17 as well. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." -Bob Dylan- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:16:23 -0400 From: "Alberto Rada" To: Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <001401beb5fb$249c62c0$848031ce@telcel.net.ve> Hi You lucky guys, I believe that print costs now way over $ 1000.00 got too expensive for me, its a beautiful print, every time I open RT book I go straight to it. I just bought his most recent WW1 print, Balloon Buster, showing a Sopwith Camel flaming a balloon, and signed by Henry J.L. Botterel, I believe a Canadian. Also have two of Nicolas Trudgian prints, Richtohofen's flying Circus and Knights of the Sky, this last one shows a Dr1 flamed by a SE5A, Sandy you should have this one. Also by Michael Turner , the Age of Chivalry Of course, the most precious ones are a couple of profiles by the famous Bob ( legs ) Pearson SALUDOS Alberto ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: 13 June, 1999 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Art > In a message dated 6/12/99 11:18:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, l > bigglesrfc@globalserve.net writes: > > << In fact I now suspect it's a plate removed from a book of > Taylor's work as it measures about 9X12. It's matted and framed and cost me > $35 Cdn ($20 US) >> > > Probably so. My limited edition print is about 18 x 24 with nice framing. Of > course it cost me $250. > > Taylor is sure a great artist. About 10 years or so ago he had a show at the > Smithsonian air and space. Fabulous. Did you know Taylor is also quite a > marine artist? He is supposed to be putting out a book of his marine art but > have not seen it since it was noted in preparation 4 or 5 years ago. Maybe he > gave up, or just has not finished it. Anyone know about it? > > Ben > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:34:12 -0400 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Dr 1 Message-ID: <37644E04.5F54@worldnet.att.net> Bill Shatzer wrote: > > Cyg writes: > > snips- > > >No evidence other than Durkota's profile on his poster. He represents it > >as I have indicated. He claims it was painted red subsequently, but > >that no victories were scored in this scheme. > > Thanks for the additional info. > > >I have seen a number of photos of Tripes, which are supposed to belong > >to MVR, but except for 102/17, no serials have been visible in any of > >these photos. > > The serials are visible on photos of 127/17 and 152/17 as well. > Unfortunately, I am sure I have not seen the 127/17 photo to which you refer. :-( The 1st photo in the Squadron Dr.1 book purports to be 152/17 - but; a.) The caption refering to the paint scheme doesn't match the photo (at least to my eyes) b.) The photo is so poorly reproduced, I can't make out the serial. :-( Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:34:10 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Art Message-ID: <199906140034.RAA18868@compass.OregonVOS.net> > >In a message dated 6/13/99 3:47:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >bigglesrfc@globalserve.net writes: > ><< How about Chidlaw-Roberts??? >> > >Yes, that looks what the signature is. Now who is he? Ten victories flying SE.5's with 60 Sqdn and 40 Sqdn including a shared victory over Max Muller, a 36 victory "ace" then commanding Jasta Boelke. He was one of Voss's "targets" on Voss's last flight and took serveral of Voss's bullets in his SE.5 before 56 Sqdn "rode to his rescue". He had served as an observer with 2 Sqdn and a pilot with 18 Sqdn before joining 60 Sqdn where he was credited with his first aerial victory on September 14, 1917. Holder of the MC, he died in 1989. "Above the Trenches" notes that he was one of the very few pilots to fly operationally in every war year from 1915 to 1918. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." -Bob Dylan- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Jenny once more Message-ID: <199906140043.RAA20294@compass.OregonVOS.net> Ben writes: >I have some drawings and photos which shows the rudder foot bars to be either >wood or metal. The Jenny in College Park has wooden bars so I want to go with >that because laser cut wood is easier and cheaper than castings. >Now, Nieto plans shows the joy sticks to have a crook in them so I assumed >they were metal. However the joysticks in College park are wood. But dammit, >when I was over there I did not see if the crook was in it. Has anyone seen a >wood joystick with a crook (bend) in it as Nieto shows? Seems the joystick >would have to be carved or laminated to get that shape. Just a thought but joy sticks would seem the type of "contractor supplied equipment" with could easily vary from contractor to contractor - or even between production runs from the same contractor. It would certainly seem within the realm of possibility that both wood and metal and crooked and uncrooked joy sticks were used. For what it is worth, I've a photo of a rear Jenny cockpit which shows a decidedly straight joy stick. And, it looks more metal than wood - although that cannot be conclusively determined just from the photo, of course. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." -Bob Dylan- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:33:55 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Dr 1 Message-ID: <199906140133.SAA27932@compass.OregonVOS.net> Cyg writes: >Bill Shatzer wrote: >> The serials are visible on photos of 127/17 and 152/17 as well. >Unfortunately, I am sure I have not seen the 127/17 photo to which you >refer. :-( Page 46 of Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane", among other places. A pretty "plain Jane" aircraft - standard Fokker streaked olive/turquiose paint scheme remarkable only for having a streaked olive rather than white rudder. >The 1st photo in the Squadron Dr.1 book purports to be 152/17 - but; >a.) The caption refering to the paint scheme doesn't match the photo (at >least to my eyes) >b.) The photo is so poorly reproduced, I can't make out the serial. :-( I think this is typical Squadron/Signal "In Action" sloppy research. The photo doesn't seem to correspond with any of the other photos of 152/17 which clearly show the serial number. For instance, the "In action" photo shows an a/c with a square white surround to to the fuselage Eisenkruz while the other photos of 152/17 show only a narrow white outline to the fuselage cross. The "In Action" photo also seems to show stripes on the undersurface of the horizontal tailplane/elevators which would mark it as a Jasta 6 aircraft. Needless to say, no tail stripes appear in any of the photos of which show the serial number. In short, I don't think this is 152/17. Rather, it is likely a Jasta 6 aircraft and Squadron/Signal has dropped the ball again. (We'll ignore, for the nonce, the caption reference to this aircraft being on the flight line of Jasta 5 - a unit which was not part of Jagdgeshwader 1 or the caption on the facing page photo which identifies LOTHAR v. Richthofen "in the cockpit of his RED Dr.I triplane" - of course, Lothar used yellow, not red, for a personal ID color. Or, the photo on page 24 which is captioned as Jasta 11 [actually Jasta 19!] with the remarkable information that Lowenhardt flew with Jasta 11 "before he took command of Jasta 10" - a bit of information which has -totally- escaped the attention of any other researcher.) Save the Squadron/Signal Dr.I book for the photographs and disregard -everything- else unless it can be independently verified. Indeed, treat -anything- by Heinz Nowarra with the same caution. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." -Bob Dylan- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:54:35 -0400 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Dr 1 Message-ID: <376460DB.1FC6@worldnet.att.net> Bill Shatzer wrote: > > Cyg writes: > > >Bill Shatzer wrote: > > >> The serials are visible on photos of 127/17 and 152/17 as well. > > >Unfortunately, I am sure I have not seen the 127/17 photo to which you > >refer. :-( > > Page 46 of Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane", among other places. > A pretty "plain Jane" aircraft - standard Fokker streaked olive/turquiose > paint scheme remarkable only for having a streaked olive rather than > white rudder. > > >The 1st photo in the Squadron Dr.1 book purports to be 152/17 - but; > > >a.) The caption refering to the paint scheme doesn't match the photo (at > >least to my eyes) > > >b.) The photo is so poorly reproduced, I can't make out the serial. :-( > > I think this is typical Squadron/Signal "In Action" sloppy research. > > The photo doesn't seem to correspond with any of the other photos > of 152/17 which clearly show the serial number. For instance, the > "In action" photo shows an a/c with a square white surround to > to the fuselage Eisenkruz while the other photos of 152/17 show > only a narrow white outline to the fuselage cross. The "In Action" > photo also seems to show stripes on the undersurface of the > horizontal tailplane/elevators which would mark it as a Jasta > 6 aircraft. Needless to say, no tail stripes appear in any of > the photos of which show the serial number. > > In short, I don't think this is 152/17. Rather, it is likely > a Jasta 6 aircraft and Squadron/Signal has dropped the ball again. > > (We'll ignore, for the nonce, the caption reference > to this aircraft being on the flight line of Jasta 5 - a unit > which was not part of Jagdgeshwader 1 or the caption on > the facing page photo which identifies LOTHAR v. Richthofen > "in the cockpit of his RED Dr.I triplane" - of course, > Lothar used yellow, not red, for a personal ID color. Or, > the photo on page 24 which is captioned as Jasta 11 > [actually Jasta 19!] with the remarkable information > that Lowenhardt flew with Jasta 11 "before he took command > of Jasta 10" - a bit of information which has -totally- > escaped the attention of any other researcher.) > > Save the Squadron/Signal Dr.I book for the photographs > and disregard -everything- else unless it can be independently > verified. Indeed, treat -anything- by Heinz Nowarra with > the same caution. > Actually, I was looking at the photo on page 3. Your right about the rest. I will keep hitting the used bookstores for the Imre book. I have only 2 of the Vintage Warbird series. Cyg. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1640 **********************