WWI Digest 1465 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Nie. 17 (Hobbycraft) by Matthew E Bittner 2) Re: Nie. 17 (Hobbycraft) by Mike Fletcher 3) Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 4) Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 5) Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report by "David Vosburgh" 6) German Grey-Green by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley) 7) Re: German Grey-Green by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 8) Re: German Grey-Green by "Steven M. Perry" 9) Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 10) Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report by John & Allison Cyganowski 11) Re: Triplane trivia by "Bill Neill" 12) Re: German Grey-Green by David & Carol Fletcher 13) Re: Off topic request - Hucks by "Tom Werner Hansen" 14) Re: German Grey-Green by Matthew E Bittner 15) Re: Stringer Effect by Pedro e Francisca Soares 16) Re: Upcoming Aeroclub kits by Albatrosdv@aol.com 17) Re: Triplane trivia by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 18) Re: Stringer Effect by Matthew E Bittner 19) RE: Triplane trivia by Shane Weier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:40:48 -0600 From: Matthew E Bittner To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Nie. 17 (Hobbycraft) Message-ID: <19990226.194314.-831915.4.mbittner@juno.com> On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:54:02 -0500 (EST) "Satin, Michael N. (SHEP)" writes: >OK, everyone (especially Matt), I have a Nieuport question. I am >contemplating purchasing a Hobbycraft 1/32 Nie. 17 and doing Billy >Bishop's >plane. I would order a set of Tom's Modelworks 1/32 French cockpit >brass, >unless someone has a better idea. I have an old copy of Windsock with >a >fairly extensive article on the model. Is this a good idea? What >does >anyone think about the model and/or brass? Sock it to me, and >thanks! The biggest ommission I remember is the exhaust channel under the cowl. One of the modelers here had difficulty with the underside fuselage seam staying together. He complained that because it was flat throughout, it wasn't gripping or some such. Not sure if anybody else had this problem. Matt Bittner ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:31:23 -0800 From: Mike Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Nie. 17 (Hobbycraft) Message-ID: <36D7670B.1B568B5A@mars.ark.com> Matthew E Bittner wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:54:02 -0500 (EST) "Satin, Michael N. (SHEP)" > writes: > > >OK, everyone (especially Matt), I have a Nieuport question. I am > >contemplating purchasing a Hobbycraft 1/32 Nie. 17 and doing Billy > >Bishop's > >plane. I would order a set of Tom's Modelworks 1/32 French cockpit > >brass, > >unless someone has a better idea. I have an old copy of Windsock with > >a > >fairly extensive article on the model. Is this a good idea? What > >does > >anyone think about the model and/or brass? Sock it to me, and > >thanks! > > The biggest ommission I remember is the exhaust channel under the cowl. > > One of the modelers here had difficulty with the underside fuselage seam > staying together. He complained that because it was flat throughout, it > wasn't gripping or some such. Not sure if anybody else had this problem. > > Matt Bittner > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] That and the fuselage should be narrower at the bottom and isn't (this is a standard Nieuport feature that has been missed by most of the kits and some of the drawings) - compare to the German 3 part detailed drawings on my site which has fuselage stations. Etched brass is probably not the way to detail most of it (good for the seat though) - I used platic tubing, brass tubing and plastic sheet. its not finished yet though -- Mike Fletcher ___ ., mdf@mars.ark.com |-\|^----! ; mikef@sparc.nic.bc.ca |--n--""*" icq=19554083 @ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:54:52 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report Message-ID: <36D8316C.233B@ricochet.net> In case anyone is interested, I have a few thoughts on this/these kits. After attempts to remove/fill with primer the rather deeply engraved decal locators, I have decided that like most of the other Aurora molds, this one is not worth trying to build (except for perhaps as a practice project) and is perfectly suited to being an overvalued collectible, especially with the two existing much more accurate Lindberg and R/M offerings, as well as upcoming kits. There are very few things right with this kit, and so it is not even much of a parts donor, except of course for sheet plastic. It is overscale, the wings are flatish, the empennage, struts and wheels chunky, the radiator is not only too small/crude but has sinks in the shutters. Usual thick Aurora cockpit padding, no stringers on rear deck, etc, etc. Forty years ago, I guess it was better 'n nothing. I will finish it, only because I'm a stubborn man and have to carry through certain ill-advised projects simply because I spent a few dollars on them, and nothing will be lost if they don't turn out. I plan to try Humbrol service brown out of the tin on this one (with maybe a little dullcoat) and the use the Lindberg decals. Maybe I'll round the wings off and convert it to a 5. Anyone have any opinions/data on the possibilty of PC12 SE5as in Palestine? The nice thing about the local clubs is that virtually no one else builds (or at least finishes) WWI stuff, so they're easily impressed by anything with two wings and bit of rigging. Ironic, when I hear about the hundreds of hours poured into superdetailing, which is infinitely more complicated than threading a bit of monfilament/wire/whatever through a few little holes. Don't know if it's a wing alignment or rigging phobia... Riordan (who has to stop buying cheap kits and torturing himself with them, especially with Eduard getting so affordable) I do deserve to build the Aeroclub Brisfit. I do, I do! :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:33:13 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report Message-ID: <199902270633.WAA18305@compass.OregonVOS.net> > >In case anyone is interested, I have a few thoughts on this/these kits. -snips- In fairness to the late and sainted memory of Aurora, it should be pointed out that the Entex kit is -not- the Aurora kit but rather a rather bad Japanese copy of the the Aurora kit. The Entex molds originated with, I believe, Marusan, and while these kits are clearly a knock-off of and patterned after the Aurora kit, they are noticably cruder than the Aurora kits in several respects and significantly inferior to even the Merit/Aliplast/Smer copies of the Aurora kits. The #103 Aurora SE.5 kit is obviously not up to modern standards and is in a rather weird 1/46 scale but it is far better than the Marusan/Entex/Fuji rip-off (which is also in the weird 1/46). Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Cave ab homine unius librum." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:21:05 -0500 From: "David Vosburgh" To: Subject: Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report Message-ID: <001201be625c$6a09e820$15d690d0@Pvosburg> R. Your family wasn't originally from New England, were they? There's some nutty attraction to making something out of basically nothing.... this reminds me of my ordeal with the SMER Bulldog last year. I was bound and determined to finish it, but fortunately was saved by inadvertently (subconsciously?) giving it a wash-down with DT830 automotive enamel reducer one night --- the equivalent for styrene of the flesh-eating bacteria. The 1:72 Airfix Gladiator (soon-to-be Gauntlet) I'm working on actually has a flat deck instead of a cockpit, with a little pilot's head sticking up from it like the earliest Aurora kits I can recall working on. Whaddya want for c.1955 standards? Good luck, and keep the progress reports coming! DV -----Original Message----- From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 3:15 AM Subject: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report >snip> >After attempts to remove/fill with primer the rather deeply engraved >decal locators, I have decided that like most of the other Aurora molds, >this one is not worth trying to build >I will finish it, only because I'm a stubborn man and have to carry >through certain ill-advised projects simply because I spent a few >dollars on them...> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:47:35 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: German Grey-Green Message-ID: To the list, At the risk of belabouring a point long since settled, the question of German Grey-Green paint as used on metal A/C surfaces has had me wondering recently. I had a discussion about this with a list-member off line last week, and I offer up the following observations. Models of German A/C that I have seen on the internet usually show metal panels painted in a light grey colour, even when painting instructions for those kits call for light grey-green. I've done it myself! The question, of course, is how much green should appear in that paint? The photos that I took of the restored AEG at Rockliffe and posted on Allan's site show the extensive metal components of the cockpit painted in what can only be described as a light greyish-green. But that colour is much more greenish than grey, and really looks like a light pea green. The question begs to be asked: should all those grey metal panels we've been painting really be a light pea-green instead? It would sure change the appearance of all those early Albaross, Aviatik and LVG models we've been making. Just a thought on a Saturday morning. Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:21:03 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: German Grey-Green Message-ID: <36D8B608.13F@ricochet.net> Kevin & Kimberley wrote: > > The question, of course, is how much green should appear in that paint? As much as it takes. One of the nice things about WWI stuff is latitude of interpretation. I used Aeromaster RLM 02 outta the jar on my Smer Albatros, and it looks good to me. It's a good starting point, anyway. IIRC, RLM 63 is a similar but not identical color. I have seen paintings by 'first-cabin' aviation artists depicting Albatrai with both light grey and bare metal cowlings. Photo refs of particular aircraft are important, but they can only tell you so much about colors. I'm kinda curious to find a good match for D.V chocolate brown. Maybe a Summer/Autumn panzer brown? Riordan P.S. How early did you log on today, Kevin? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:42:41 -0500 From: "Steven M. Perry" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: German Grey-Green Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990227104241.006c67e8@pop.mindspring.com> >The question, of course, is how much green should appear in that paint? Model Masster SAC Bomber Green lies around the green end of the range. Add gray to taste. As Riordan sez, there is a great bit of lattitude involved in modeling subjects which are rapidly dissapearing from living memory and of which no color photos were taken. Gray/Green and varnished ply make a neat and interesting contrast of tones & shades, fortunately, IMO, there are no exact standards to compare against and be dogmatic about. In this case, when it looks right to you it is right. FWIW sp Who is contemplating adding a scoshin more gray before he paints the exterior panels today ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:49:24 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report Message-ID: <36D8BCC4.63B1@ricochet.net> David Vosburgh wrote: > > > > Your family wasn't originally from New England, were they? Don't know (have to get back to you on that one) but at the risk of annoying Sandy, there's an old Yank saying about people of 'Scotch' ancestry having thrifty sensabilities. Warnochs of Clan Davidson on mom's side and Dye (Scot name?) on dad's. > There's some nutty attraction to making something out of basically nothing.... Yes, and (with all deference to Bill and Aurora) I've simply got to get past the idea of slaying dragons that are actually pigs in a poke. I guess it's the charm of the pooch that can't be rogered. If it turns out bad, then "well, it was a *****y kit to begin with" or "it was a practice model" I'll probably claim the latter, as it sorta is. This brings up the GIGO (garbage in-garbage-out) principle... > The 1:72 Airfix Gladiator (soon-to-be Gauntlet) I'm working on actually has > a flat deck instead of a cockpit, with a little pilot's head sticking up > from it like the earliest Aurora kits I can recall working on. Wow. You must want a teeny Gladiator pretty bad. > Whaddya want for c.1955 standards? I guess I need to respect those standards as attributes of artifacts that are of more historic than modeling value. > Good luck, and keep the progress reports coming! I was barely able to save the fin, but I had to amputate the rudder, and the tailplane/elevators would need orbital sander therapy to be used, so I'm scrathching new ones. I don't know if the decal locator scars will be eradicated altogether...thick coats of primer seem to be helping. If converting to a 5, I'll have to the bloody huge overwing gravity tank. This might be a good subject for a resin conversion kit- grav-tank, radiator, wingtips - anyone good with a vac machine could make the semi-enclosed canopy. John? Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:25:55 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Aurora/Entex SE5 progress report Message-ID: <36D82AA3.35A8@worldnet.att.net> mgoodwin@ricochet.net wrote: > > I > guess it's the charm of the pooch that can't be rogered. If it turns > out bad, then "well, it was a *****y kit to begin with" or "it was a > practice model" I'll probably claim the latter, as it sorta is. This > brings up the GIGO (garbage in-garbage-out) principle... > > > If > converting to a 5, I'll have to the bloody huge overwing gravity tank. > This might be a good subject for a resin conversion kit- grav-tank, > radiator, wingtips - anyone good with a vac machine could make the > semi-enclosed canopy. John? > > Riordan 1st comment. Whenever I get involved in one of "those" projects, I usually find out very quickly just who(m) is getting "Rogered". 2nd comment. I would like an SE5 myself. Unfortunately, I am barely able to support 1 project at a time. Somebody else will probably get to this before I do. If they don't, Scott and I would certainly entertain this one. We have been lusting after a prototyping vacuforming machine with female mold capability. We are not going to build one for ourselves. So for right noe it the Squadron Heat and Smash sheets or nothing. Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:11:48 -0800 From: "Bill Neill" To: Subject: Re: Triplane trivia Message-ID: <003f01be627c$aca95d80$b8889ad1@bill> The Sopwith Triplane now has most of it's flying surfaces up. You may recall I messed up the upper wing decals, and had trouble finding replacements? Well in the end I had to redo the already finished fuselage to get all the blues the same. Now, a real nit picker, I got the horns on the control surfaces, and it seems that on restorees anyway the control horns are as the color of the surfaces they stand from? My own guess is black or grey on CDL surfaces, roundel color on roundels, but what of the ones on PC10? Thanks Bill Neill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:22:37 -0800 From: David & Carol Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: German Grey-Green Message-ID: <36D837ED.7580@mars.ark.com> Steven M. Perry wrote: "The question, of course, is how much green should appear in that paint?" Green has perhaps the greatest propensity for fading among the colours used on aeroplanes. If it went on grey-green, then later in service it would have been more grey. If you are building a shiny, factory-fresh model, then be lavish with the green; if your end product is to be a veteran of the Front, then lean to more grey. Even with modern urethane paints, the same phenomenon exists. I noted back in my operational flying days that when a Canadair Argus or Lockheed Aurora (before they were painted grey) came out of the refinishing shop, it was a glossy pale green - when it went back in a few years later, it would be a dull bluey-grey. FWIW Dave Fletcher dcf@mars.ark.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:30:22 +0100 From: "Tom Werner Hansen" To: Subject: Re: Off topic request - Hucks Message-ID: <199902271847.TAA08583@d1o211.telia.com> If James doesn't have it, I know that I have it. Not that long since I looked at it. Tom ---------- > From: James Gibbons > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Off topic request - Hucks > Date: 25. februar 1999 14:43 > > Tucson Myers wrote looking for info on the Hucks starter truck. I believe > that I have the Airfix magazine article that covered modeling this. If > this article is not covered in the info that Dave Fletcher and others are > providing (or if anyone else is interested in it) please contact me > off-list. > > James Gibbons > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:37:03 -0600 From: Matthew E Bittner To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: German Grey-Green Message-ID: <19990227.133856.-829695.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:45:53 -0500 (EST) "Steven M. Perry" writes: >>The question, of course, is how much green should appear in that >paint? > >Model Masster SAC Bomber Green lies around the green end of the range. Add >gray to taste. I agree with Steven on this one. Model Master SAC Bomber Green is a great choice for German grey-green. Plus it comes in both enamel and acrylic. Matt Bittner ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:01:10 +0000 From: Pedro e Francisca Soares To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Stringer Effect Message-ID: <36D808B5.F36368F@mail.telepac.pt> Matthew E Bittner wrote: > .. I haven't tried it yet, so wish me luck. > :-) > > Matt Bittner > Good luck. ;-) Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:18:09 EST From: Albatrosdv@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Upcoming Aeroclub kits Message-ID: <3d7fc44.36d85301@aol.com> Here are several items of interest from Aeroclub. There is no release date for these kits on the top list, all are "TBA", but they are listed in the latest catalogue and John tells me he is working on them. I would say that with what he has told me about his new computer-aided design system, the quality of Aeroclub kits, which is already quite high, will only continue upward. Given the quality of the F.e.2b, R.E.8, and F.2B, these look to be pretty interesting additions to the world of World War I modeling, for those who build in God's Scale of 1/48: DeHavilland D.H.5 DeHavilland D.H.9 Westland Wapiti (not really WW1 but it might as well have been) Royal Aircraft Factory F.E.8 Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.2c Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.2e Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.12a Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.12b For the eensy-teensy-weensy crowd: Here now: Fairey Flycatcher (now available, practically WW1) Bristol Scout D Gloster Grebe (I know, not quite WW1, but once again...) Gloster Gamecock (see above) Gloster Gauntlet (beats modifying Airfix or Heller kits - I have done his 1/48 vac and it is very nice) TBA: Shorts 184 F.E.8 1/72 vacuform kits available now: DeHavilland Foxmoth (vac fuselage, injection wings, white metal detail) Martinsyde S-1 Scout S.E.2A Felixstowe F2A TBA: Royal Aircraft Factory R.E.7 Below is Aeroclub's e-mail address, if you want to contact John Adams to order kits and encourage him to release the TBA's as soon as he can (knowing there is a market can be a very powerful consideration). John recently suffered the loss of his wife to a particularly painful cancer, so getting him back in the workshop is good therapy for him as well as a good thing for us. aeroclub@compuserve.com Cheers, Tom Cleaver BTW - the 1/48 F2B is a very nice model, as I am working on it now. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:54:20 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Triplane trivia Message-ID: <199902272054.MAA14519@compass.OregonVOS.net> Bill Neill writes: > >The Sopwith Triplane now has most of it's flying surfaces up. >You may recall I messed up the upper wing decals, and had trouble finding >replacements? Well in the end I had to redo the already finished fuselage to >get all the blues the same. Now, a real nit picker, I got the horns on the >control surfaces, and it seems that on restorees anyway the control horns >are as the color of the surfaces they stand from? My own guess is black or >grey on CDL surfaces, roundel color on roundels, but what of the ones on >PC10? Looks to me like they are black or dark grey on PC10 as well. It's tough to tell 'cause the angle of reflection is different on the control horns than on the adjacent fabric but they do look darker than the fabric. For what it might be worth, the control horns on the RAF museum's CDL one-and-one-half strutter are light colored, not dark - although I understand this aircraft is a reproduction and not a restored original so this observation might not be worth much. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Cave ab homine unius librum." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:36:30 -0600 From: Matthew E Bittner To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Stringer Effect Message-ID: <19990227.173737.-829351.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:38:50 -0500 (EST) Pedro e Francisca Soares writes: >Good luck. ;-) Thanks, Pedro. The "beige" is on, and when it dries I will sand it off the stringer (and, as it turns out, sand the string down a little more). Matt Bittner ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:08:35 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Triplane trivia Message-ID: Bil, > The Sopwith Triplane now has most of it's flying surfaces up. > You may recall I messed up the upper wing decals, and had > trouble finding > replacements? Well in the end I had to redo the already > finished fuselage to > get all the blues the same. Now, a real nit picker, I got the > horns on the > control surfaces, and it seems that on restorees anyway the > control horns > are as the color of the surfaces they stand from? My own > guess is black or > grey on CDL surfaces, roundel color on roundels, but what of > the ones on PC10? In the absence of information specific to the aircraft you're modelling, I'd make *all* of them black. The British had quite strict requirements regarding finishing of aircraft items and most if not all would be finished by Japanning - BEFORE being fitted to the aircraft. *Afterwards* they may have been overpainted though. From digging through a stack of photos I observe. Usually black on PC.10/PC.12 *sometimes* lighter, may be overpainted or just lighting effects. I suspect that the control horns would go on AFTER the fabric, so unlikely to get overpainted, except after repairs. Almost always black on CDL - not surprising, even if overpainted it would be by *clear* dope. Occasionally lighter - possibly roundel colour - on roundels and rudder stripes. May actually reflect field replacements where no-one has to pass an inspection at an aircraft park before acceptance. Often *not* black on training machines overpainted with garish schemes - Though the frequency I note might be a reflection of a smaller sample. HTH Shane ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1465 **********************