WWI Digest 1437 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Taps - and Last Post. by Shane Weier 2) Re: Taps - and Last Post. & Russian DR1. by "Brad Gossen" 3) Re: triplanes, red by "Brad Gossen" 4) CAAC collectables by "cameron rile" 5) Re: The bloody Red Baron industry marches on..... by "Sandy Adam" 6) Re: CAAC collectables by "Sandy Adam" 7) Re: triplanes, red by bucky@ptdprolog.net 8) AG by Alberto Rada 9) Re: triplanes, red by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 10) Re: triplanes, red by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 11) Re: AG by "Mark Shanks" 12) RE: AG by "John Glaser" 13) Halberstadt CL.II by Alberto Rada 14) Re: Names ..(Off-Topic) by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 15) Re: Murphy and decals.. by Alberto Rada 16) DV Server Problems by "David Vosburgh" 17) Re: Halberstadt CL.II by KarrArt@aol.com 18) Changes at Rockcliffe by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley) 19) Re: Halberstadt CL.II by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 20) Re: CAAC collectables by Carlos Valdes 21) Re: Changes at Rockcliffe by KarrArt@aol.com 22) Re: Murphy and decals.. by Bill Neill 23) Re: Weathering on WW1 subjects by Bill Neill 24) RE: Weathering on WW1 subjects by Shane Weier 25) Re: Weathering on WW1 subjects by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 26) Re: Changes at Rockcliffe by Mike Fletcher 27) Re: Weathering on WW1 subjects by Mike Fletcher 28) Re: Changes at Rockcliffe by Bob Pearson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:06:14 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Taps - and Last Post. Message-ID: Bill, > > The current issue of "Over the Front" rolled in in todays mail > and buried in the back are a couple of footnotes to our century. > Harold Edwards, 1896-1998. The last survivor of the 3,400 men > who served in the Australian Flying Corps in World War one died in > Brisbane at the age of 102. He was an instrument fitter who > served with #3 Squadron, A.F.C., and in April, 1918 was one of the Honor > Guards on the body of Manfred vonRichtofen. He engraved the nameplates for the > Baron's first coffin and grave marker. I posted to the list about Harolds death some months ago, on the day after he died. He had lived just a few kilometres away from me in Brisbane, and I'd been fortunate enough to meet him briefly several years ago. Harold Edwards was an Honorary member of the Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians (our equiv of Cross and Cockade Society), and a most engaging old gentleman. He died as a result of complications after a fall at his nursing home, the last member of the AFC. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:37:19 -0500 From: "Brad Gossen" To: Subject: Re: Taps - and Last Post. & Russian DR1. Message-ID: <199902092138.QAA23925@mail5.globalserve.net> If I'm not mistaken Henry Botterell is still kicking. At least he attended a wreath laying ceremony in France this past November and celebrated his 102nd birthday. While there he was made a Chevalier of the Legion of Honour. He is the subject of an article in this months issue of Airforce (a Canadian publication) entitled 'Canada's Lone Eagle'. Botterell flew Pups, Camels and finally Snipes with Naval 8 (and of course 208). One of his balloon busting episodes is the subject of a recent Robert Taylor print entitled 'Balloon Buster'. He was last reported to be residing in the seniors wing of Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. (Don't know what it is about Toronto, Otto Roosen lived here many years as did MvR's little brother. MvR's niece still lives here, so too does Billy Bishop's son.) Bill Thanks for the info on the V7. Having read further I've come across a description by Aten of a Fokker Triplane which he claims to have chased down in a dive and watched while it's wings collapsed. Certainly sounds like a DR1 but I can't help thinking that the book was written in 1961 when the Fokker Triplane was in vogue ala Charles Schultz. Brad BigglesRFC@globalserve.net ---------- > From: Zulis@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Taps - and Last Post. > Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 2:21 AM > > In a message dated 2/9/99 2:12:34AM, Bill Shuey writes: > > << Otto Roosen, 1896-1998. The last surviving pilot of the > Imperial German Air Service passed away in Heintsville, Ontario, Canada > on May 27, 1998. >> > > FYI for any list members who keep archives, etc. That location should read > "Huntsville, Ontario, Canada." > > Dave Z. > Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:48:01 -0500 From: "Brad Gossen" To: Subject: Re: triplanes, red Message-ID: <199902092149.QAA24498@mail5.globalserve.net> Phillip Thanks for the info. I suspected as much. I gather the description I quoted was a bit of (unnecessary) authors license to designed to embellish the story for an audience that was Fokker Triplane happy in the early '60s. Brad BigglesRFC@globalserve.net ---------- > From: Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: triplanes, red > Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 12:07 PM > > ha, gotcha sandy! > > this is in response to the querry about tripes used by the bolsheviks. in > lennart andersen's book "soviet aircraft and aviation 1917-1941" there is a > chapter entitled "aircraft taken over by the red air fleet, 1917-1920". > only a pair of fokker d.viii's (captured from the poles) are mentioned > under that entry. however, under sopwith, in addition to camels, snipes, a > pup, and strutters, was a single triplane, viz: > > "Triplane N5486 arrived with the British Military Mission to Russian in > the Spring of 1917. It ended up with > the RKKVF and was assigned to the 1st Military School of Pilots, where it > remained until being > written off in 1925. This aircraft was preserved and still survives in > the Soviet AF Museum at Monino." > > > RKKVF: (Workers and Peasants Red Air Fleet) > > HTH, > > phillip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:52:08 -0500 From: "cameron rile" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: CAAC collectables Message-ID: <199902091455412@cameron.prontomail.com> Found these for sale, Canadian Army Air Corps badge and pilots wings : http://www.armysurplus.com/shop-cgi/loadpage.cgi?user_id=19028&file=departments/collectable/insignia/misc/index.htm It also includes a Voodoo Canopy for 750$, and a Napalm bomb for 750$. If you wanted to buy the Centurian Tank, you are out of luck it was sold, but the pair of 4 inch naval guns are still available for sale ( 15000$). You can also buy leather flying helmets : http://www.armysurplus.com/shop-cgi/loadpage.cgi?user_id=19028&file=departments/headwear/uk.htm cam AFC page : http://members.xoom.com/PointCook/index.htm RBII page : http://memebers.xoom.com/artattack/index.htm ______________________________________________________________ Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:12:40 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: The bloody Red Baron industry marches on..... Message-ID: <199902092317.XAA12276@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Thanks for the word on the new title, Sandy. You're welcome Carlos. > If I could offer a bit of advice, maybe you can let off some further > steam by stepping on a few Albatros D.III kits Actually I'm building a whole series of Albs just now (probably finished after the Camels though) - and in case you haven't noticed, I have a 425/17 model on the web-page - but its such a tired old subject I tried to think of an original angle. You see I build German, British, French, Italian, Austrian ......etc aircraft. This is what you call a balanced viewpoint - you should try it sometime - there is life outside the Richthofen Geschwader you know. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:23:46 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: CAAC collectables Message-ID: <199902092323.XAA12415@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Found these for sale, > Canadian Army Air Corps badge and pilots wings : On the same sort of topic - I got some nice RFC badges and shoulder flashes on my last visit to the Imperial War Museum. I've distributed them in one of the cases amongst the models. Can't remember exact prices but I think they were only a pound or two each - they'd probably do them by e-mail order if anyone was interested. I fancy a Blue Max copy now to complement them. Anybody know a source that takes credit cards? Carlos - sounds like your forte? Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:36:09 -0500 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: triplanes, red Message-ID: <36C0C668.A29D1B64@ptdprolog.net> Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador wrote: > "Triplane N5486 arrived with the British Military Mission to Russian in > the Spring of 1917. It ended up with > the RKKVF and was assigned to the 1st Military School of Pilots, where it > remained until being > written off in 1925. This aircraft was preserved and still survives in > the Soviet AF Museum at Monino." There's a brief article in either OTF or C & C from 4-5 years back about this airplane along with a few pictures. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:25:30 -0400 From: Alberto Rada To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: AG Message-ID: <36C0D1F9.7F1894AC@argonaut.net> Hi Can someone please tell me Americal/Gryphon's email ? and phone ? and address ? Thanks a lot SALUDOS Alberto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:43:58 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: triplanes, red Message-ID: <36C17F0E.5638@ricochet.net> Brad Gossen wrote: > > Phillip > Thanks for the info. I suspected as much. I gather the description I > quoted was a bit of (unnecessary) authors license to designed to embellish > the story for an audience that was Fokker Triplane happy in the early '60s. The above is possible, and the book was actually written by Arthur Orrmont who interviewed and corresponded with Aten during the final years of his life. It should be remembered, however that Aten was a Johnny come lately to the Western Front, only seeing a few weeks (?) of action with #203 before crashing his Camel and spending the last days of the war in the hospital. Therefore, it is quite possible that 'Bunny' never actually saw a Sopwith or a Fokker triplane, as the former had long since been phased out by the final months of the War, and the latter were being replaced by the D.VII from May 1918. It is noted that the Dr.I continued to serve in small numbers with home defense units till the Armistice. It is therefore likely that Aten, who (along with the rest of #47 Squadron) encountered a mixed bag of Bolshevik aircraft ranging from obsolete French and Russian types to recent German and A-H types, and not having much experience with either German or Allied triplanes probably mistook the only triplane known to have been used by the 'Bolos'- Sopwith N5486 - to be a Fokker Dr.1. FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:48:07 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: triplanes, red Message-ID: <36C18007.6D6F@ricochet.net> bucky@ptdprolog.net wrote: > There's a brief article in either OTF or C & C from 4-5 years back about this airplane along > with a few pictures. Although I can't vouch for its accuracy, there's also a cracking piece on the operational mystery of N5486 in the March 1995 Triplane Craze cover issue of Aviation History. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:55:59 -0700 From: "Mark Shanks" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: AG Message-ID: <199902100046.QAA24860@mailhost.fltdyn.com> Hello, Alberto! > Can someone please tell me Americal/Gryphon's email ? > and phone ? > and address ? If they have a phone and/or e-mail, *I'd* like to know!! But their address is: AMERICAL/GRYPHON DECALS 4373 Varsity Lane Houston, TX 77004 Mark mshanks@fltdyn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:21:10 -0600 From: "John Glaser" To: Subject: RE: AG Message-ID: <000201be5493$a435af60$eb454a0c@jg_notebook> Phone & e-mail not in public domain. - John -----Original Message----- From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Shanks Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 6:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: AG Hello, Alberto! > Can someone please tell me Americal/Gryphon's email ? > and phone ? > and address ? If they have a phone and/or e-mail, *I'd* like to know!! But their address is: AMERICAL/GRYPHON DECALS 4373 Varsity Lane Houston, TX 77004 Mark mshanks@fltdyn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:28:52 -0400 From: Alberto Rada To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Halberstadt CL.II Message-ID: <36C0E0D4.F62F546F@argonaut.net> Hi Can someone give a hand : Control panel instruments ? disposition ? Cockpit colors ? I have not been able to find any info at all on the above MUCHAS GRACIAS SALUDOS Alberto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:35:49 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Names ..(Off-Topic) Message-ID: <36C18B35.2F26@ricochet.net> Sandy Adam wrote: > > Having exhaustively corrected each other endlessly about the fact that a > Fletcher made arrows - which I am sure we all knew anyway, can I ask that > we don't do the same for Wrights, Coopers, Tanners, Turners, Smiths, > Millers, Farmers, Hunters.......... What about Bowyers and Sawyers? Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:46:57 -0400 From: Alberto Rada To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Murphy and decals.. Message-ID: <36C0E511.8E1415A7@argonaut.net> Hi Bill Looking into the Pandora's box I found two roundels from a 1/32 Camel that match in size and color the Eduard's Triplane's wings, they are not the best decals on earth, but they match, if you want them please send me your snail mail address SALUDOS Alberto Bill Neill wrote: > Last night I got to try to put the upper and lower wing roundels on the > Triplane. > I remarked before how the Eduard decals were reluctant to release from the > backing. > Well the upper wing roundels would not release at all, but after 20 minutes > soaking, they cracked to pieces (the pieces are still firmly stuck to the > backing). > I found two sheets of old Superscale RFC roundels,(72-006) but they are > much darker than the Eduard ones. The fuselage roundel is on, and > varnished,as are the rudder stripes, and I am reluctant to try to get them > off again to get a color matched set. Anyone know of a good, available, > sheet of RFC roundels which will be a near enough match for the Eduard? The > blue on the Eduard is about FS 35183. > Thanks > Bill Neill > The murphy bit? I had a look in my BM DH2 kit to see if I could do anything > with the decals there. > I got a set of Camel decals. Anyone got a BM Camel with DH2 decals?? > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:40:35 -0500 From: "David Vosburgh" To: "WWI Mailing List" Subject: DV Server Problems Message-ID: <000301be549e$d5c0c960$06d690d0@Pvosburg> Sorry for taking up bandwidth with a personal note, but my mail server has been down since yesterday morning so I haven't been able to send or receive in the past 36 hours. I'm sending this via another account, and just wanted to let anyone on the list know who may have been trying to contact me... I'll re-up when things get straightened out. Regards, Dave V. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:04:38 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Halberstadt CL.II Message-ID: <70fb08e3.36c0f746@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/99 5:55:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, rada@argonaut.net writes: << Hi Can someone give a hand : Control panel instruments ? disposition ? Cockpit colors ? I have not been able to find any info at all on the above MUCHAS GRACIAS SALUDOS Alberto >> Hang on for a day or two and I think I can get a few bits ( I know I've got at least the instrument panel somewhere). Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:56 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Changes at Rockcliffe Message-ID: Hi List, For people who keep track of these things... I was up at Rockcliffe (National Aviation Museum, Ottawa, Canada) over the past weekend, and since I was last there two years ago, they have moved their SPAD 7 out of the main WWI exhibit, and replaced it with a silver-doped Nieuport 12 (Matt: yes, that's right, a Nieuport). I can't vouch for the authenticity of the paint scheme, but it sure is a nice plane. The silver doping has kind of a matte finish and contrasts well with the metal cowl - much like I thought it should be. Took a roll of pictures, and was especially happy they let me climb over the AEG G.IV (got some cockpit/gunner station shots). Their M.F. Shorthorn is still there and looks great, as well as the BE2c, AVRO, Snipe, Naval Camel, and so on. Hope the pics turn out OK. Allan: Would you like a series of Rockcliffe shots for your web site? Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:08:44 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Halberstadt CL.II Message-ID: <199902100408.UAA01115@compass.OregonVOS.net> Pedro writes" >Hi > >Can someone give a hand : > >Control panel instruments ? disposition ? > >Cockpit colors ? > >I have not been able to find any info at all on the above Wouldn't they be likely very similar to the CL IV? The datafile on the CL IV has a couple pretty good photos of the CL IV port side cockpit interior and the instrument panel. As to colors, I've no idea although the CL IV cockpit interior is lighter in tonal values than the fuselage exterior. The fact that the individual screw heads on the instrument panel and seat back are visiable as individual dark "dots" would lead me to suspect that these parts at least are varished wood. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Cave ab homine unius librum." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:24:12 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: CAAC collectables Message-ID: <36C109EC.77E8@conted.gatech.edu> > I fancy a Blue Max copy now to complement them. Anybody know a source that > takes credit cards? Carlos - sounds like your forte? Sandy, Two possibilities I can think of are a U.S. outfit by the name of Company of Eagles which does have a BM and probably takes CCs (unfortunately, I don't have a catalog, but I've e-mailed a friend who may have one. I'll let you know what I learn), and the following source: http://home.earthlink.net/~svernon/ which deals in real medals but has carried repro BMs in the past (I think)--just drop him an e-line. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:35:06 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Changes at Rockcliffe Message-ID: <3fb48736.36c10c7a@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/99 7:58:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, kevinkim@interlog.com writes: << Took a roll of pictures, and was especially happy they let me climb over the AEG G.IV (got some cockpit/gunner station shots)........... Allan: Would you like a series of Rockcliffe shots for your web site? Kevin Barrett. >> Oh pretty please? Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:11:52 -0500 From: Bill Neill To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Murphy and decals.. Message-ID: <199902100012_MC2-69E2-15D5@compuserve.com> Hi Aberto, My mail.... Bill Neill 2580 Homestead Road #34 Santa Clara Ca 95051 USA. Many Thanks Bill Neill (another Murphy strike...I got another set of the Superscale sheet, this time in nearly the right color, but looking at it, the varnish and the ink are a long way out of register, only about half of each roundel is actually on the varnish..).. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:25:13 -0500 From: Bill Neill To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Weathering on WW1 subjects Message-ID: <199902100025_MC2-69E2-165F@compuserve.com> I was accustomed to weather up WW2 and later model airplanes, but the few WW1 ones I have seen seem to be in 'as new' condition. I would have guessed WW1 paints and dopes would weather more than later stuff? That, and I guess WW1 airplanes got to stand out in the wind and rain a lot and the fabric was maybe mutch patched from accidents/handling/repairs/etc? Does anyone have general guidelines on the amount and nature of weathering and wear/tear typical of WW1 Brit airplanes in the field? Thanks Bill Neill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:44:31 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Weathering on WW1 subjects Message-ID: Bill, > I would have guessed WW1 paints and dopes would weather more > than later stuff? This seems a fair assumption but.. > That, and I guess WW1 airplanes got to stand out in the wind > and rain a lot and the fabric was maybe mutch patched from > accidents/handling/repairs/etc? ..this is not. A fabric covered biplane is extremely fragile by comparison with a metal covered aircraft. Squadrons in the field took a great deal of trouble to cover their aircraft at night and during inclement weather - much more so than was necessary in WW2. *Many* period photos show Bessoneau hangars used, many others show the substantial demountable hangars used by the Germans (eg, the famous Boistrancourt line up of Jasta 5, but many others) > Does anyone have general guidelines on the amount and nature > of weathering and wear/tear typical of WW1 Brit airplanes in the field? Frankly, photos almost always show lovely glossy dope, and I really doubt if aircraft often lasted long enough for it to degrade too far. But YMMV.. However, by far the best solution to this question is to base the amount of weathering *and* the type of weathering on a photo of the aircraft in question or failing that, of one of the same type. Typically you'll get castor oil stains on the rotary engine machines, oil and grease stains at the ends of axles, control surface hinges and so on. I don't know that this is weathering so much as routine wear and tear. Aircraft with laced and removable panels often have wrinkled fabric, wood veneer fuselages *SOMETIMES* show evidence of delamination, cowlings get dented, espec. around edges. I'd imagine too that some fading of paints might happen, but I'm loathe to do much of it for a number of reasons. 1. Short period of service == not time to fade 2. Non-fugitive pigments in some cases (PC.10 is ochre and lamp black - go to an art shop and read the literature on which pigments are most stable) 3. Machines I've chosen to model don't *look* faded or worn All IMHO Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:52:44 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Weathering on WW1 subjects Message-ID: <199902100652.WAA20283@compass.OregonVOS.net> Bill Neill writes: >I was accustomed to weather up WW2 and later model airplanes, but the few >WW1 ones I have seen seem to be in 'as new' condition. >I would have guessed WW1 paints and dopes would weather more than later >stuff? >That, and I guess WW1 airplanes got to stand out in the wind and rain a lot >and the fabric was maybe mutch patched from accidents/handling/repairs/etc? >Does anyone have general guidelines on the amount and nature of weathering >and wear/tear typical of WW1 Brit airplanes in the field? I was gonna chime in on this but Shane covered the subject pretty well and 'bout all I can do is second his conclusions. But the big reason you don't see many weathered WW1 aircraft is that they simply seldom lasted long enough to get weathered. >From a chart I have, here is the average "wastage" per month percentages for the RFC in the second quarter of 1916 Type Wastage per month BE2c 17% FE2b 27% Bristol scout 50% DH Scout 30% Morane Monoplane 28% Morane Parasol 38% Morane Scout 33% Martinsyde 22% I have another reference which indicates that the average life of a FE2b was 58 days during 1916. As can be seen, the odds of an aircraft actually surviving more than three or four months at the front were quite remote. The typical aircraft would be hors de combat (or destroyed in an accident) within a couple months at best. They just didn't survive long enough to become weathered. Another statistic from the German side - between October and December, 1917, a total of 80 Fokker Dr.Is had been dispatched to the front. Only 35 remained on stremgth in December - an attrition rate of over 55% in less than 3 months. And the Dr.I was grounded because the the wing failure problem for an appreciable portion of that period and was not, thus, suffering any combat or accident losses during that portion of the October-December period during which it was grounded. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Cave ab homine unius librum." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:41:16 -0800 From: Mike Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Changes at Rockcliffe Message-ID: <36C1381C.10C0726@mars.ark.com> The pictures of this machine in 1917-1919 look silver but they may as easily be badly stained cdl...it depends on which shot you look at, and it may have been recovered at some point. It was donated by the French Dec 7, 1916 when the aluminum dope was in use. tail number in the photos (different than mfg's serial number) was 1504. did you happen to notice which engine they put on it? It should be a 110 LeRhone (NAM has the original engine it came to Canada with) but at some stage it was modified to use a Clerget, and the change back was going to involve a bit of work. Kevin & Kimberley wrote: > > Hi List, > > For people who keep track of these things... > > I was up at Rockcliffe (National Aviation Museum, Ottawa, Canada) over the > past weekend, and since I was last there two years ago, they have moved > their SPAD 7 out of the main WWI exhibit, and replaced it with a > silver-doped Nieuport 12 (Matt: yes, that's right, a Nieuport). I can't > vouch for the authenticity of the paint scheme, but it sure is a nice > plane. The silver doping has kind of a matte finish and contrasts well with > the metal cowl - much like I thought it should be. > > Took a roll of pictures, and was especially happy they let me climb over > the AEG G.IV (got some cockpit/gunner station shots). > > Their M.F. Shorthorn is still there and looks great, as well as the BE2c, > AVRO, Snipe, Naval Camel, and so on. Hope the pics turn out OK. > > Allan: Would you like a series of Rockcliffe shots for your web site? > > Kevin Barrett. -- Mike Fletcher ___ ., mdf@mars.ark.com |-\|^----! ; mikef@sparc.nic.bc.ca |--n--""*" icq=19554083 @ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:46:47 -0800 From: Mike Fletcher To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Weathering on WW1 subjects Message-ID: <36C13967.ED28ABDA@mars.ark.com> a small minority for various reasons did survive but due to aerodynamics and the level of care given, staining varied enormously, but is most prevalent of training machines and machines used in quieter theaters (ie Mesopotamia). Staining is also more extensive on rotary types, and then is usually worse on the left side of the fuselage, affecting the areas just around the fuselage stations the most. A good example of this is the Nieuport 10 flown by Lt.Cdr. Sampson, - a copy of the picture is available from the Australian War Memorial Archives online. Bill Shatzer wrote: > > Bill Neill writes: > > >I was accustomed to weather up WW2 and later model airplanes, but the few > >WW1 ones I have seen seem to be in 'as new' condition. > >I would have guessed WW1 paints and dopes would weather more than later > >stuff? > >That, and I guess WW1 airplanes got to stand out in the wind and rain a lot > >and the fabric was maybe mutch patched from accidents/handling/repairs/etc? > >Does anyone have general guidelines on the amount and nature of weathering > >and wear/tear typical of WW1 Brit airplanes in the field? > > I was gonna chime in on this but Shane covered the subject pretty > well and 'bout all I can do is second his conclusions. > > But the big reason you don't see many weathered WW1 aircraft is > that they simply seldom lasted long enough to get weathered. > > >From a chart I have, here is the average "wastage" per month > percentages for the RFC in the second quarter of 1916 > > Type Wastage per month > BE2c 17% > FE2b 27% > Bristol scout 50% > DH Scout 30% > Morane Monoplane 28% > Morane Parasol 38% > Morane Scout 33% > Martinsyde 22% > > I have another reference which indicates that the average life > of a FE2b was 58 days during 1916. > > As can be seen, the odds of an aircraft actually surviving more > than three or four months at the front were quite remote. The > typical aircraft would be hors de combat (or destroyed in an > accident) within a couple months at best. They just didn't > survive long enough to become weathered. > > Another statistic from the German side - between October > and December, 1917, a total of 80 Fokker Dr.Is had been > dispatched to the front. Only 35 remained on stremgth in > December - an attrition rate of over 55% in less than 3 > months. And the Dr.I was grounded because the the wing failure > problem for an appreciable portion of that period and was > not, thus, suffering any combat or accident losses during > that portion of the October-December period during which it was > grounded. > > Cheers and all, > > -- > Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org > > "Cave ab homine unius librum." -- Mike Fletcher ___ ., mdf@mars.ark.com |-\|^----! ; mikef@sparc.nic.bc.ca |--n--""*" icq=19554083 @ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:01:43 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Changes at Rockcliffe Message-ID: <199902100801.AAA26257@spare.rapidnet.net> I'm curious as to what sort of fin/rudder arrangement it has now. When I saw it in the shop in 1994 it had a non-standard fin and was in PC10 overall with two thin white bands around the fuselage. My interest in the 2-seat Nieuports stem from my visit that day. Regards, Bob Pearson Visit my WW1 aviation page at http://members.xoom.com/Sopwith_5F1 Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http://www.avsim.com/mike/awn/ ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1437 **********************