WWI Digest 1404 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: VCR alert by Bob Pearson 2) Re: Baumer Albatros by Ernest Thomas 3) Re: VCR alert by Ernest Thomas 4) Re: Baumer Albatros by Bob Pearson 5) Re: feeling wood wasRe: Scratchbuilding wings by KarrArt@aol.com 6) Re: Baumer Albatros by KarrArt@aol.com 7) What Future holds by "Tom Werner Hansen" 8) Re: VCR alert by "Sandy Adam" 9) Re: Baumer Albatros by Suvoroff@aol.com 10) Future help by "Steven M. Perry" 11) Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol 20 No 12 Feb 1999 by Graham Nash 12) Re: New Stuff at Hannants WAS New Eduard Stuff by Matthew E Bittner 13) Re: New Images/Survey by Shane & Lorna Jenkins 14) Re: New Images/Survey by Shane & Lorna Jenkins 15) Re: New Images/Survey by Allan Wright 16) Re: Quizlet by Allan Wright 17) Re: An Author in our midst! by Allan Wright 18) Re: Quizlet by Allan Wright 19) RE: Baumer Albatros by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 20) Re: VCR alert by Bob Pearson 21) Re: Any on-line model railroading outlets? by Dave Watts 22) RE: Baumer Albatros by "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> 23) Paul Baumer/Erich Maria Remarque? by David Kelly 24) Re: Baumer Albatros by KarrArt@aol.com 25) Cat theme by mkendix 26) RE: Cat theme by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 27) Re: Cat theme by Bob Pearson 28) Re: Cat theme by "Steven M. Perry" 29) Re: Cat theme by "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> 30) Re: Baumer Albatros by "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:34:52 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: VCR alert Message-ID: <199901200634.WAA05744@spare.rapidnet.net> Dave writes . . > ps - I have a theory about the effects that MvR's head injury had upon him, > and this video made me even more certain that I am on to something here, but > will have to save that for another time. This post is way tooooo long > already.... The late AE Ferko has an interesting theory about MvR's head injury . . ..remember that he was shot in the back of the head while approaching an FE head-on .. ... . Ferko believed MvR was actually shot down by one of his own men. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:45:52 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: <36A57BA0.1483@bellsouth.net> D. Anderson wrote: > Boy, bet you all wish some CNN cameraman had been there to tape it all. We've had this thread come up from time to time. Btw, how's that time machine coming, guys? E. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:53:25 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: VCR alert Message-ID: <36A57D65.647@bellsouth.net> Bob Pearson wrote: > head-on .. ... . Ferko believed MvR was actually shot down by one of his > own men. from the grassy knoll? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:01:37 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: <199901200701.XAA05903@spare.rapidnet.net> > > Boy, bet you all wish some CNN cameraman had been there to tape it all. > > We've had this thread come up from time to time. > Btw, how's that time machine coming, guys? > E. DOH !!!!!! I knew I forgot something !!!!!! Besides CNN can only shot in night vision green ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:41:42 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: feeling wood wasRe: Scratchbuilding wings Message-ID: <574474bc.36a588b6@aol.com> In a message dated 1/19/99 5:58:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, laws@webtime.com.au writes: << Thanks for the heads up Robert It's really lovely stuff to work with isn't it ! david >> Yeah, I just wish bigger blocks were more readily available. Most of the time I have to get thinner planks and then laminate, but sometimes..aaaaahhhh sometimes......I luck out and get ahold of a nice fat piece maybe 1"x2"x 18". It's rare, but when I do ...Yippee! One more thing, I sometimes get a pice of balsa that's got eveidence of "creatures" having tunneled- really small tunnels, but tunnels none the less. Balsa is dried and cured before it hits the market so nothing is likely to be alive, but it's still creepy. I have NEVER seen this in bass wood. Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:41:41 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: <7140a8e3.36a588b5@aol.com> In a message dated 1/19/99 10:14:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, 2814823733@home.com writes: << Sort of. So where does that leave us? What is the list consensus? Do we go with the conclusions of a 28-year-old magazine article, which in turn relies on the--at that time--50+ year-old memory of an aging skywarrior? Personally, if it were my *choice*, I'd go with red. Dane >> If it were a matter of aesthetics, red would've been my choice also.But after doing two representations, one in 3D and anoter in 2D, I've kinda come over to thinking blacklooks pretty sharp! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:37:34 +0100 From: "Tom Werner Hansen" To: Subject: What Future holds Message-ID: <199901191731.SAA10281@d1o211.telia.com> Fellow floor polishers. Of course the much talked about product Future is not available under that name in Norway. I should have picked up a bottle in California this Christmas, but I drew the line at that. Somebody said that a similar product in the UK is called Johnson's Kleer. Could someone take a look at their bottle of Future and check the contents so I can see if the product called Johnson's Clear (at least the Norwegians know how to spell English) is a match. My house doesn't have any floors that need polishing so I don't want to buy one more thing to put away in a cupboard. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:07:07 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: VCR alert Message-ID: <199901200906.JAA23723@beryl.sol.co.uk> This must be the drivel-program I warned you of some months back - where old Goetz von Richthofen tells us how MvR painted his plane red and all the other ones grey so that English novice pilots would know he was the Red Baron and not try to fight with him? He would only fight experienced pilots!! It was obvious that the present day JG MvR pilots had only the most superficial knowledge of their ubiquitous progenitor - nearer Snoopy than reality. Good flying shots of Jacobs Tripe replica and the usual good stock footage of Bird etc. Sandy ---------- > From: Zulis@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: VCR alert > Date: 19 January 1999 22:40 > > In a message dated 1/20/99 1:21:40AM, Dane writes; > > << Lastly, it was a masterstroke to juxtapose the W.W. I footage with > interviews with pilots of the modern Richtofen squadron. >> > > Another excellent angle was provided by speaking with the descendants of > pilots whom MvR shot down. One was shown a piece of film footage of his > father, as a prisoner, standing next to MvR and with a certain tension in his > voice he says that his dad didnt think much of the Baron. He goes on to say > that his father was aware of MvR's habit of having the silver souvenir cups > made to record each victory and that he "didnt care to be one of MvR's > trophies". > > In contrast, there was the story of the widow of a young pilot shot down by > the Baron who, some time after the event, recieved in the mail a neat package > of her husband's documents, personal items, etc along with a personal note of > regret/condolence from MvR himself. > > The impression I got was that, despite all the hype and propaganda about the > man, he was a genuinely interesting and complex person even without all that > extra stuff added on. This film came along at just the right time - I am > mid-way through the Bodenshatz diaries and the starry-eyed drivel that he > wrote about his lord and master was almost enough to make me swear off of MvR > for ever. > > Regards, > > Dave Z > > ps - I have a theory about the effects that MvR's head injury had upon him, > and this video made me even more certain that I am on to something here, but > will have to save that for another time. This post is way tooooo long > already.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:42:51 EST From: Suvoroff@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: "note that v.hippel's own machine, the "blitz", is portrayed as having a black/white lightning bolt, as the americal/gryphon sheet depicts correctly and the microscale sheet depicts incorrectly as red/white." Allan's web page shows red and white, so that's the way it must be. Besides, red and white looks so spiffy... Yours, James D. Gray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:51:59 -0500 From: "Steven M. Perry" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Future help Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990120055159.00a0ed58@pop.mindspring.com> I'm finding Future to be an outstanding means of keeping rip tape decals stuck down, and not a bad solution to silvering either. Here is my problem. My 6 yr old daughter, (the one woman wrecking crew), scratched a game CD into uselessness. I polished out the offending scratch, but left millions of tiny sanding marks. Now, I've airbrushed the thing with Future and the marks disappeared. My question is this: Does anyone know if it is OK to run a Future coated disc in a CD player? I can always try to see if my computer will read it as that CD drive is way less used and cheaper than her Playststion, but I was hoping someone out there might know for sure if this is a bad thing before I try it. TIA sp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:00:48 +0000 From: Graham Nash To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol 20 No 12 Feb 1999 Message-ID: <199901201057.FAA15501@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Latest issue contains: Review of Aeroclub F.2B Windsock DH9 Datafile issued Tha-tha-that's all folks! Best, Uncle Sniffy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:46:47 -0600 From: Matthew E Bittner To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: New Stuff at Hannants WAS New Eduard Stuff Message-ID: <19990120.051509.-848411.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:52:45 -0500 (EST) REwing@aol.com writes: > ><< Who's 'Arthur' anyway? >> > >He's the Tick's little side-kick buddy. I am *NOT* a bunny! :-) Gee...how many threads can we tie together? Matt Bittner ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:39:53 -0800 From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins To: WW1 posts Subject: Re: New Images/Survey Message-ID: <36A6E7D9.1195D623@tac.com.au> > > The survey is biased against us dual scalers. As I alternate scales with > > each new project, I have no primary scale. I voted twice, once each for > > 1:72 & 1:48 :-) > > Not true - there is a selection specificly for you - "No Preferred Scale" > > -Allan > Hi Allan, What no "proper ship scale"!!! Disgusting :->> How about putting in 1600, 1/700 & 1/350(all of which have WW1 ships). Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:47:14 -0800 From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins To: WW1 posts Subject: Re: New Images/Survey Message-ID: <36A6E992.7446315A@tac.com.au> > > The survey is biased against us dual scalers. As I alternate scales with > > each new project, I have no primary scale. I voted twice, once each for > > 1:72 & 1:48 :-) > > Not true - there is a selection specificly for you - "No Preferred Scale" > > -Allan Hi Allan, What!!, no ship scale included, tut, tut :->> How about adding 1/350, 1/600 & 1/700(all have WW1 ships) to the next quiz. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wright To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: New Images/Survey Message-ID: <199901201623.LAA16300@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > What!!, no ship scale included, tut, tut :->> > How about adding 1/350, 1/600 & 1/700(all have WW1 ships) to the next > quiz. Yes, I started with aircraft scales - we could do a ground scale survey next. =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:38:12 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wright To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Quizlet Message-ID: <199901201638.LAA16395@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Is there a way of preventing Chicago-style voting (early and often) ? I don't think so - it's a free program hosted by another site. I would bet it's pretty easy to rig. It's really just for fun..... -allan =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:40:05 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wright To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: An Author in our midst! Message-ID: <199901201640.LAA16443@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Have a look! > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/290818267X/qid=916796423/sr=1-1/002-5097818-2911028 You've been found out Yves! -Allan =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:46:35 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wright To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Quizlet Message-ID: <199901201646.LAA16513@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Which is everyone's favorite aircraft: > > Nie.11 > Nie.16 > Nie.17 > Nie.24 > Nie.27 > Nie.28 > > Just a suggestion, of course. :-) > > Matt Bittner Sometimes I think you should see a doctor about that chemical imbalance you have Matt! :-) =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:21:26 -0600 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: <01BE4467.05116960.panz-meador@vsti.com> yeah, i think we have to go with red as the color, based upon v.Hippel's recollection (banfield's remembrances were similarly used by dr. o'conner in his A-H aces book). not sure as to the legal term, but i'd consider him to be a "factual witness" or a "primary source". same goes for a thread a few months ago concerning dr.1 cowlling colors; the choice, IIRC, was between the recollections of one of the jasta's mechanics and photo interpretation. again, i'd have to go with the former, unless proven incorrect FOR THOSE SPECIFIC MACHINES by other means. perhaps legal eagles on the list can explain the various degrees of evidence better than i... here's an example of how things can go awry. for xmas i received the book "a hidden fire" by paul hopkirk. an interior photograph portrays representatives of germany and the ottoman empire meeting with an afghan emir, i believe, in an effort to open a "third front" against the british and russians in persia and british india. the german civil tricolor and ottoman crescent moon flags are hanging in the background. a *careful* examination of this posed shot reveals which of the stripes in the german flag is red (by comparison with the red/white ottoman banner). however, this was not obvious to the point of the artist who hand-tinted this same photo for a cover montage had anything other than a black/white ottoman flag and a black-white-black german fahne. a lot of this comes down to personal choice as to the purpose of the model. is it supposed to be the most historically accurate depiction that historical research can deliver, or is it meant to be 20 hours of fun, or somewhere in between? every available choice on this spectrum is valid, as it's a personal choice of a hobby (and hence inconsequential in nearly every context). conversely, the "Fine Scale Models" article on lozenge last year blatantly (and maddeningly) stated that "... colors don't really matter much" or something to that effect. i've often wondered if other list members realized that the author's name "alan smithee" is used when the real author doesn't wish to reveal their name. this is certainly the case with directors/dogs of movies (REF: the movie "Burn, Hollywood, Burn" starring monty python's eric idle as alan smithee, the web, etc.) phillip -----Original Message----- From: KarrArt@aol.com [SMTP:KarrArt@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 1:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros In a message dated 1/19/99 10:14:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, 2814823733@home.com writes: << Sort of. So where does that leave us? What is the list consensus? Do we go with the conclusions of a 28-year-old magazine article, which in turn relies on the--at that time--50+ year-old memory of an aging skywarrior? Personally, if it were my *choice*, I'd go with red. Dane >> If it were a matter of aesthetics, red would've been my choice also.But after doing two representations, one in 3D and anoter in 2D, I've kinda come over to thinking blacklooks pretty sharp! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:25:18 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: VCR alert Message-ID: <199901201725.JAA00386@spare.rapidnet.net> Sandy writes . . > This must be the drivel-program I warned you of some months back - where > old Goetz von Richthofen tells us how MvR painted his plane red and all the > other ones grey so that English novice pilots would know he was the Red > Baron and not try to fight with him? He would only fight experienced > pilots!! > It was obvious that the present day JG MvR pilots had only the most > superficial knowledge of their ubiquitous progenitor - nearer Snoopy than > reality. > Good flying shots of Jacobs Tripe replica and the usual good stock footage > of Bird etc. > Sandy Yup, same show. Right after it aired I ran to the books to identify 'Pat' (the man mentioned as being married to the interviewees grandmother). .... turns out he wasn't MvR's victim at all ........ the only Pat from No.60 Sqn shot down ten days after the 20th March 1917 was 2/Lt WP Garnett of No.60 Sqn, except he was downed by Ltn Kurt Wolff for Wolff's 4th victory. There was another 'Pat downed by MvR, but this fellow was in a two-seater BE2 from No.13 Sqn and falls outside of the ten days mentioned in the program ... Lt Patrick JG Powell was KIA on 2 April 1917 along with his observor 1AM Percy Bonner. Anyone know whose Triplane that is in the show? Sure is striking in Jacobs markings, and I agree about the elder Richthofen not knowing the reasoning behind MvR's red colour - grey indeed !!!!! Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:41:02 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Any on-line model railroading outlets? Message-ID: <199901201750.MAA23788@sam.on-net.net> I believe that I have heard of a pretty good one called Watts' Train Shop @ www.wattstrainshop.com They specialize in "G" scale 1/22.5, 1/29, and also carry some Marklin HO. Best wishes, Dave Watts At 08:43 AM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:41:32 -0500 (EST), you wrote: > >> >> Does anyone know of any model railroading outlets that are on-line and >>sell by mail-order? >> >Hi Fernando, > >Here are a couple: > >http://www.ghqmodels.com/ GHQ - mostly photo-etch stuff for model >railroading and ship building. > >http://texnrails.com/ THis one is mostly N-scale stuff. You can also >try Caboose Hobbies: >www.caboosehobbies.com >They have a large stock and claim to be the biggest supplier of model >railroading equipment. > >Len > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:56:34 -0700 From: "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: RE: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990120105634.006d8048@mail> At 12:22 PM 20/01/99 -0500, you wrote: >yeah, i think we have to go with red as the color, based upon v.Hippel's >recollection (banfield's remembrances were similarly used by dr. o'conner >in his A-H aces book). not sure as to the legal term, but i'd consider him >to be a "factual witness" or a "primary source". same goes for a thread a >few months ago concerning dr.1 cowlling colors; the choice, IIRC, was >between the recollections of one of the jasta's mechanics and photo >interpretation. again, i'd have to go with the former, unless proven >incorrect FOR THOSE SPECIFIC MACHINES by other means. perhaps legal eagles >on the list can explain the various degrees of evidence better than i... > >here's an example of how things can go awry. for xmas i received the book >"a hidden fire" by paul hopkirk. an interior photograph portrays >representatives of germany and the ottoman empire meeting with an afghan >emir, i believe, in an effort to open a "third front" against the british >and russians in persia and british india. the german civil tricolor and >ottoman crescent moon flags are hanging in the background. a *careful* >examination of this posed shot reveals which of the stripes in the german >flag is red (by comparison with the red/white ottoman banner). however, >this was not obvious to the point of the artist who hand-tinted this same >photo for a cover montage had anything other than a black/white ottoman >flag and a black-white-black german fahne. > >a lot of this comes down to personal choice as to the purpose of the model. > is it supposed to be the most historically accurate depiction that >historical research can deliver, or is it meant to be 20 hours of fun, or >somewhere in between? every available choice on this spectrum is valid, as >it's a personal choice of a hobby (and hence inconsequential in nearly >every context). > >conversely, the "Fine Scale Models" article on lozenge last year blatantly >(and maddeningly) stated that "... colors don't really matter much" or >something to that effect. i've often wondered if other list members >realized that the author's name "alan smithee" is used when the real author >doesn't wish to reveal their name. this is certainly the case with >directors/dogs of movies (REF: the movie "Burn, Hollywood, Burn" starring >monty python's eric idle as alan smithee, the web, etc.) No, I did not know this. Why not just say "anonymous," or make up a "real" pseudonym? Why would someone want to hide their real identity over a simple article on lozenge anyway? Dane >phillip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:12:29 -0500 (EST) From: David Kelly To: World War One Modeling Group Subject: Paul Baumer/Erich Maria Remarque? Message-ID: Dear Group, Hello! I have been having a very interesting correspondence with a gentleman named Tom Cleaver about the possible link between Paul Baumer the pilot and Paul Baumer the protagonist of Remarque's "All Quiet on the Western Front." The conversation stemmed from a passage written on a page at the "Aeronut" web site quoted here: "Known as "The Iron Eagle," Paul Baumer was the 9th ranking German ace of the war with 43 victories. Born in 1896, he was a dental assistant before the war. When he joined the German Army, he already had his pilot's license, but served in an infantry regiment at the front before transferring to the Air Service in 1916. "After the war, Baumer became a dentist and remained an active pilot, flying in aerobatic displays throughout Europe. He died in a crash at Copenhagen airport 15 July 1927, while doing a display. Known by all as incredibly decent, Baumer numbered among his friends the novelist Erich Maria Remarque, who was so affected by his friend's death that he named the protagonist of his famous novel, "All Quiet On The Western Front" for him, thereby conferring immortality of a sort on Leutnant Paul Baumer." Mr. Cleaver received this information from an old friend who was a literary scholar and old airplane enthusiast. Unfortunately, he does not know the source of his learned friend's information. Has anyone on the list ever run into a source that makes this link? If so, could you please email me? I would appreciate any light that the group members could shed. Thanks in advance. Yours, David Kelly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:17:47 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: In a message dated 1/20/99 9:29:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, panz- meador@vsti.com writes: << a lot of this comes down to personal choice as to the purpose of the model. is it supposed to be the most historically accurate depiction that historical research can deliver, or is it meant to be 20 hours of fun, or somewhere in between? every available choice on this spectrum is valid, as it's a personal choice of a hobby (and hence inconsequential in nearly every context). phillip>> Color extraction from bw photos is a sometimes maddening activity. Trying to establish some baseline is tricky. It's also fun when it pays off, which has happened a few times on off-topic paintings where I worked from bw photos and later had my color choices confirmed when color shots turned up later. In the case of old memories, I'm skeptical because of the way markings material may been presented to the party involved. A case in point is Max Holtzem- different presentions of his Pfalz D III have appeared and they were all verified by Max- someone would do up a color profile, send it to him and ask if it was correct and he'd just say yes. I don't know P Gray's exact methodology, although he says he sent some color suggestions and swatches to vH, and I wonder if this didn't "color" the old man's memory. Memories recorded around the time of an event, while not infallible, are to my mind, more reliable. Models are, I guess, inconsequential in the wide world, as are most activities involving "artistic" creation. Only recently have I come to respect my own model building efforts as a worthwhile use of time, compared to my painting work. My Albatros painting wasn't exactly a major effort as paintings go, being really more of an exercise, but I sweated over the color choices and realized I was going against common knowledge about the red fuselage. I may still be wrong, but whatever the color was, it wasn't Jasta 5 stripe red, although it's been suggested that maybe another shade was used- this may turn out to be the correct answer. This brings me 'round to something I've been curious about for long time- the nature of markings paint. I don't know what paint-dope-varnish was officially issued to field units, nor do I know what may have available "in town". German use of red- did some mechanic bicycle into the nearest village and buy a pint (liter?) of some red barn paint? How available was brightly colored paint?. I think I mentioned before on the list that about the only things I've ever read about this subject are a short recollection by a WW II 8th AF P-51 mechanic- he went into a nearby English village to get red paint for the nose markings and came back with some low quailty, watery, thin commercially produced stuff, and a WW II Pacific nose artist who used red laquer for his creations because red paint was totally unavailable. In WW I, was it possible to easily obtain red, yellow and blue to mix the various shades we see in the profiles? Thinking on a rainy morning Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:01:17 -0500 (EST) From: mkendix To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Cat theme Message-ID: I need some help here. Can anyone suggest a WWI (preferably aeroplane) modelling item that is related to a cat/feline/lion/tiger? Extra helpful would be if it were readily available in injection mold 1/72nd scale. Michael mkendix@worthen.ihcrp.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:27:21 -0600 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Cat theme Message-ID: <01BE4478.9D14C160.panz-meador@vsti.com> (1) von R./Zeumer AEG G.II bomber (2) Nieuport squadron marking (French/Russian service? see the FMP IRAS book for a color drawing) (3) RN battlecruisers: the "splendid cats". HMS Lion and HMS Tiger. the former beatty's flagship at jutland, the latter arguably the RN's prettiest ship at that time. phillip -----Original Message----- From: mkendix [SMTP:mkendix@worthen.ihcrp.georgetown.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Cat theme I need some help here. Can anyone suggest a WWI (preferably aeroplane) modelling item that is related to a cat/feline/lion/tiger? Extra helpful would be if it were readily available in injection mold 1/72nd scale. Michael mkendix@worthen.ihcrp.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:24:09 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Cat theme Message-ID: <199901201924.LAA01550@spare.rapidnet.net> The DH9 used a Siddeley Puma as its powerplant ... Escadrille 87 used a black cat as their marking .. See September IM archives for profile of it. Bob ---------- > From: mkendix > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Cat theme > Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:08:52 -0500 (EST) > > I need some help here. Can anyone suggest a WWI (preferably aeroplane) > modelling item that is related to a cat/feline/lion/tiger? Extra helpful > would be if it were readily available in injection mold 1/72nd scale. > > Michael > > > mkendix@worthen.ihcrp.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:43:30 -0500 From: "Steven M. Perry" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Cat theme Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990120144330.0068dc7c@pop.mindspring.com> At 02:08 PM 1/20/99 -0500, you wrote: >I need some help here. Can anyone suggest a WWI (preferably aeroplane) >modelling item that is related to a cat/feline/lion/tiger? Extra helpful >would be if it were readily available in injection mold 1/72nd scale. > >Michael Michael: A diorama with a TOKO Nie.11 and a couple of 3/4" or so long Lion figures as Wiskey & Soda. I've seen charm for charm bracelets about that size and some gift shops sell tiny animal figurines. You said WWI airplane, feline and 1:72.sp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:45:02 -0700 From: "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Cat theme Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990120124502.006d74ec@mail> At 02:08 PM 20/01/99 -0500, you wrote: >I need some help here. Can anyone suggest a WWI (preferably aeroplane) >modelling item that is related to a cat/feline/lion/tiger? Extra helpful >would be if it were readily available in injection mold 1/72nd scale. > >Michael > > >mkendix@worthen.ihcrp.georgetown.edu > > Too bad you're restricting it to W.W. I only. There's a beautifully marked Italian air force F-104 that has just an enormous cat catching some mice on it. Dane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:52:41 -0700 From: "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Baumer Albatros Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990120125241.007025d8@mail> At 01:26 PM 20/01/99 -0500, you wrote: >Color extraction from bw photos is a sometimes maddening activity. Trying to >establish some baseline is tricky. It's also fun when it pays off, which has >happened a few times on off-topic paintings where I worked from bw photos and >later had my color choices confirmed when color shots turned up later. In the >case of old memories, I'm skeptical because of the way markings material may >been presented to the party involved. A case in point is Max Holtzem- >different presentions of his Pfalz D III have appeared and they were all >verified by Max- someone would do up a color profile, send it to him and ask >if it was correct and he'd just say yes. I don't know P Gray's exact >methodology, although he says he sent some color suggestions and swatches to >vH, and I wonder if this didn't "color" the old man's memory. Memories >recorded around the time of an event, while not infallible, are to my mind, >more reliable. >Models are, I guess, inconsequential in the wide world, as are most activities >involving "artistic" creation. Only recently have I come to respect my own >model building efforts as a worthwhile use of time, compared to my painting >work. My Albatros painting wasn't exactly a major effort as paintings go, >being really more of an exercise, but I sweated over the color choices and >realized I was going against common knowledge about the red fuselage. I may >still be wrong, but whatever the color was, it wasn't Jasta 5 stripe red, >although it's been suggested that maybe another shade was used- this may turn >out to be the correct answer. >This brings me 'round to something I've been curious about for long time- the >nature of markings paint. I don't know what paint-dope-varnish was officially >issued to field units, nor do I know what may have available "in town". German >use of red- did some mechanic bicycle into the nearest village and buy a pint >(liter?) of some red barn paint? How available was brightly colored paint?. I >think I mentioned before on the list that about the only things I've ever read >about this subject are a short recollection by a WW II 8th AF P-51 mechanic- >he went into a nearby English village to get red paint for the nose markings >and came back with some low quailty, watery, thin commercially produced stuff, >and a WW II Pacific nose artist who used red laquer for his creations because >red paint was totally unavailable. > In WW I, was it possible to easily obtain red, yellow and blue to mix the >various shades we see in the profiles? >Thinking on a rainy morning >Robert K. > You bring up something very interesting. How often *did* field units just pick up something locally available, something that would never appear on an official colour chart? Or, if the official specs called for something, and, as you say, that something was totally unavailable, the local unit decided to substitute another colour that they did have available, and no colour picture were ever taken of it. Regarding Baumer's Albatros, well, I would say that a good case could be made for either black or red, given that good reasons can be adduced for both. What it means is that if you entered an Eduard D.V in a contest in Baumer's markings, no judge would have any business disqualifying you for painting it either black or red. I am not claiming that anything goes in in W.W. I colour research, but rather that there is not enough firm evidence for dogmatic pronouncements, as you might get with modern colours, with some dork waving around an FS 595 colour fan, saying that the 30219 tan on your Phantom is not right (even though 30129 faded to some really awful shades under the South East Asian sun, rendering an FS fan of only dubious utility), and you lose the contest. I mean, there's almost no way of telling whether or not an individual RFC kite is PC 10 or PC 12, is there? Dane ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1404 **********************