WWI Digest 964 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Instrument Panels by huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) 2) RE: Instrument Panels by Shane Weier 3) Albatros DI/II by huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) 4) Re: Rimell e-mail by Bill Bacon 5) History's opinion of the Liberty engine by "Gary Hackney" 6) EVR movies by "Gary Hackney" 7) Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine by Bob Pearson 8) Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine by "Rob." 9) Turkish translation by ModelerAl 10) Re: Turkish translation by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 11) Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries by Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton 12) Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries by Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton 13) Inst. Panels & Bulkheads by perrysm@juno.com 14) Re: Airbrush/Air-source Recommendations, Please by bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 15) Re: EVR movies by bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 16) Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries by Kenneth Hagerup 17) Over the News-stands by Graham Nash 18) Eder address by Carlos Valdes 19) Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries by Joey Valenciano 20) Cross and Cockade Vol.11(1980)/nr.1 by Joey Valenciano 21) Re: EVR movies by KarrArt 22) Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries by KarrArt 23) Imrie's Triplane Book by Steve Borland 24) Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine by Patrick Padovan 25) Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine by Don RInker 26) Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine by Patrick Padovan 27) Re: Cross and Cockade Vol.11(1980)/nr.1 by Charles Hart ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:11:07 -0600 (CST) From: huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: Re: Instrument Panels Message-ID: >perrysm@juno.com wrote: >> >> Does anyone on the list have a slick trick for getting the size and shape >> of an instrument pannel or bulkhead correct when the kit doesn't have one >> and the available documentation doesn't show cross sections? Check out your local hardware and carpentry shop. You can get a carpenters tool that is used for matching various countours. I think it is called a countour gague. It is a 6 inch long bar with a number of steel rods sandwiched in the center of the bar. To use it, just push the rods against the fuselage side, or any surface, and tap all the rods flush against the surface. Remove the tool, lay the rods ona sheet of plastic card or paper and draw a line around the shape. This will give you one half of the panel or bulkhead. To get the full size part, trace one half, turn the master over and line up the top and bottom edges and trace the other side. You should be able to find one for less than $10.00. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:30:05 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Instrument Panels Message-ID: <199804020342.NAA07223@mimmon.mim.com.au> John (and several others) make this recommendation >. I think it is called a countour gauge. That's what they call them in Aus. I use one of these sometimes but they have their faults. They are more usefull at larger scales, a factor related to the size of the pins. Cheap ones have thick pins which don't capture the shape as well as expensive ones with finer pins. In any case you get a drawing which looks something like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ on a 1/48 scale model and on the same type of aircraft __ _ _ on a pixie scale model Not enough points to plot a smooth curve in 1/72, and prone to miss the little notches and so on in 1/48, but useful as long as you understand the limitations. Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:32:31 -0600 (CST) From: huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: Albatros DI/II Message-ID: Check out the Squadron new arrival page. WW-PG1029 Albatros DI/DII $24.98 $19.97 This is one of the newest arrivals. JPH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:57:02 -0600 From: Bill Bacon To: wwi Subject: Re: Rimell e-mail Message-ID: <35231A9E.772BB664@netjava.net> Shane, Belated congratulations on making it throughj one more year. Happy Birthday and have many more. Cheers, Bill B. Shane Weier wrote: > Charles notes: > > >Well, a review today, 1/4/98, of the list subcribers shows no Rimell > >subscribed to this list by his own name. Perhaps he uses an alias, > perhaps > >a friend or perhaps he will reveal himself. > > Of course, I did the same thing with a review list dated 21 March and > find no sign THOUGh there are enough more or less anonymous addresses to > be unsure/ i was astonished that only two .uk names appeared on that > list, though there may be others who connect via ISP's homed in the USA. > > I was also surprised at just how many of the about 140 names I recognise > as at least periodic participants, and how many of them I think of as > friends despite having no other contact but this list. > > Incidentally, it being the SECOND of April here, i assume this wasn't > intended as an April Fools joke. I get enough of them by sharing my own > personal anniversary with the RAF > > Regards > > Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:41:21 -0500 From: "Gary Hackney" To: "WWI Modeling List" Subject: History's opinion of the Liberty engine Message-ID: Jane's includes a glowing section on the development of this engine, how the selfless engineers put patent rights aside and donated their companies' technologies to the cause, developing this wonderful engine in a short time. Stephen Longstreet, in "The Canvas Falcons", describes a "shoddy item called the Liberty motor that the Detroit auto kings knocked together". EVR's 94th, in making the movie I mention in my other note, wrecked the DH9 they were using for a camera plane when the engine quit just after takeoff. However, he criticizes the plane for its fuel tank location, not for its engine. The truth is probably somewhere in between; where might I find a more even-handed summary of this motor? Gary Hackney, who is this week more interested in history than in modelling... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:16:08 -0500 From: "Gary Hackney" To: "WWI Modeling List" Subject: EVR movies Message-ID: I just finished "Fighting the Flying Circus". One chapter is about an afternoon spent making a dogfighting movie with EVR's Spad and a captured Hanover. The footage was intended to go back to the states to be shown to the public, apparently as wartime motivational propaganda. Anyone know anything about this, or heard of it? Of course, it's possible, or even probable, that no film or newsreel was ever made; the book doesn't have any follow-up. Gary Hackney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:07:26 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine Message-ID: <05072627105332@KAIEN.COM> Gary, I seem to recall that the Smithsonian book on their DH4 covers the Liberty fairly well. Regards, Bob Pearson ---------- > From: "Gary Hackney" > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: History's opinion of the Liberty engine > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:02:44 -0500 > > Jane's includes a glowing section on the development of this engine, how > the selfless > engineers put patent rights aside and donated their companies' technologies > to the cause, > developing this wonderful engine in a short time. > > Stephen Longstreet, in "The Canvas Falcons", describes a "shoddy item > called the Liberty motor > that the Detroit auto kings knocked together". > > EVR's 94th, in making the movie I mention in my other note, wrecked the DH9 > they were using > for a camera plane when the engine quit just after takeoff. However, he > criticizes the plane for > its fuel tank location, not for its engine. > > The truth is probably somewhere in between; where might I find a more > even-handed summary > of this motor? > Gary Hackney, who is this week more interested in history than in > modelling... > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:54:25 +0000 From: "Rob." To: wwi Subject: Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine Message-ID: <199804020558.AAA15337@newman.concentric.net> The Liberty appears to have been an excellent engine of its type--a type that was already, however, old fashioned at the time. Rolls-Royce design practice (itself a slavish imitation of Mercedes/Daimler practice) was considered the best the Allies had. R-R's engines, the Falcon and Eagle, were built with Mercedes-type forged cylinder barrels, cast crankcases, welded sheet-steel water jackets, welded on ports, and external plumbing. The more forward-looking Hispano-Suiza monobloc engines were not recognized as the clear wave of the future, except by a few forward-looking engineers in the US. Hissos had reliability problems, especially at first, so it's hard to blame officialdom. Anyway, American auto engineers (mainly Packard and Hall-Scott) looked at the R-R efforts and were appalled by the amount of hand fitting used and the consequent low production rate (chronic shortages of R-Rs were in fact the reason why the Allies asked for the Liberty). The auto engineers set out to build a bigger (they were Yanks, afterall), more powerful Roller engineered for mass production. They used coil ignition rather than magnetoes because they were used to themt and thought they would be more reliable, less tempermental, and perfectly satisfactory at the low rpm then common (they were right).There were to be straight 6 and 60-degree V-8 Liberty engines as well as the V-12. The six was too little power too late, so it went nowhere. The V-8 was a disaster. It shook the plane to pieces or broke up or caught fire or all three at once. Vibration problems were poorly understood in 1917-18, so the causewas never identified. Unfortunately, the 250- to 300-hp V-8 was supposed to be the fighter engine in the family. The 400-hp Liberty was, like the R-R Eagle, too heavy and powerful for contemporary fighters. It was built for longevity and economy of operation more than sheer performance. So it was used in DH4s, DH9as, Capronis, and the like. The hefty Packard-Lepere 2-seat fighter was the exception that proves the rule. How successful was the Liberty 12? Well, it survived into 1941 as a tank engine in the UK. It was successfully adapted for turbocharging, inverted operation (as in the DB601/605), aircooling, aircooled inverted operation, and a zillion other uses. They were reputedly all but indestructible. R-R took notice, too. Their next new engine family (the Kestrel/Merlin line) was based on American (Kirkham/Curtiss V-12) not German practice. Rob To e-mail me, replace the l with the numeral 1. Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:29:48 EST From: ModelerAl To: wwi Subject: Turkish translation Message-ID: <406f8cf4.35233e6e@aol.com> Matthew Zivich wrote: >The text is in Turkish & not much help. My Turkish is a bit rusty, but I can take a stab at it if you'll forward the text to me. If I can't decipher it, I'll ask a friend I correspond with in Ankara. HTH, Al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:09:01 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Turkish translation Message-ID: <199804020809.AAA01704@ednet1.orednet.org> Al wrote: > >Matthew Zivich wrote: > >>The text is in Turkish & not much help. > > My Turkish is a bit rusty, but I can take a stab at it if you'll forward >the text to me. If I can't decipher it, I'll ask a friend I correspond with >in Ankara. I continue to be amazed (and impressed) by the breadth of talents demonstrated on this group. "Turkish translations? No problem!" The WW1 list has got to be "smarter than the average bear" and I'm just a little in awe to be a part of it. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:58:55 -0800 From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton To: wwi Subject: Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries Message-ID: <35247A9F.2111@connectorsystems.co.nz> Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador wrote: > > stephen zaloga's "soviet tanks and armored vehicles 19xx-1945" has drawings > of many ww1 armored cars and trucks (the imperials used quite a few rr and > rr-derivative vehicles), tractors, and light tanks. some may be in 3 view, > and there are relatively many photos of a-cars and vehicles of this period. > > if you'd like, i could attempt to dig it out and veryfiy... (it's packed > right now...) > > phillip > Phillip, No immediate hurry - i don't think would justify an expedition to the bottom of thelast box of books - I've got to drill a gazillion little holes in that *$%@! flying boat hull first -did you know the mahogany hull was held together with immense numbers of brass screws? Should you unearth it at some stage in the future I'd appreciate it if you could let me know then. Many thanks Aidrian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 22:11:33 -0800 From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton To: wwi Subject: Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries Message-ID: <35247D95.6325@connectorsystems.co.nz> Alberto Rada wrote: > > Hi Allan > > I have just asked for this book: > Crow, Duncan (Editor) Armored Fighting Vehicles in Profile VOLUME 1 AFV's > in World War I Berkshire, UK Profile Publications Ltd. 1970. > > I think it is the one you mention > > SALUDOS > > Alberto Bibliofind have the following Crow, Duncan editor: Armoured Fighting Vehicles of World War One ; Doubleday Garden City 1970 164 pgs., A Profile Publication, VG+ no d/j. US$25.00 One copy listed Allan, if you particularly want it let me know, otherwise I'll grab it. Aidrian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 05:55:31 -0500 From: perrysm@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Inst. Panels & Bulkheads Message-ID: <19980402.055532.11654.0.perrysm@juno.com> Thanks to all who responded to my question about finding the shape for instrument panels. The contour gauge I have has pins so big around that it's pretty useless on anything smaller than .40 sized RC. I will have to look out for one with much smaller pins. In the mean time, darlin daughter had better keep her modeling clay & play dough picked up and put away like she's been told or some of it is getting drafted for service in Daddy's model werks. Thanks again, Steven Perry perrysm@juno.com nb: Sierra Scale Spad A.4 (S.79 on Skis) 1:48 nu: Pegasus Albatros W.4 (747) 1:72 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:28:28 -0500 From: bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Airbrush/Air-source Recommendations, Please Message-ID: <199804021228.HAA04679@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 08:11 AM 3/31/98 -0500, Bob Pearson wrote: > >Mike, > >One trick to make the can last a little longer is to place it in a pan of >warm water. Thanks. I had been using cold water...maybe that hastened its demise! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:44:13 -0500 From: bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: EVR movies Message-ID: <199804021244.HAA04761@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 12:03 AM 4/2/98 -0500, Gary Hackney wrote: >I just finished "Fighting the Flying Circus". One chapter is about an >afternoon spent making a >dogfighting movie with EVR's Spad and a captured Hanover. The footage was >intended to go >back to the states to be shown to the public, apparently as wartime >motivational propaganda. > >Anyone know anything about this, or heard of it? Gary I wondered the same things when I read the book. Since then, I'm pretty sure I've seen at least some of it, either in 4 Years of Thunder or one of the History Channel documentaries. The clip I'm thinking of doesn't show much of the 2-seater since that is where the camera was. It does show the SPAD, flown by EVR maneuvering. HTH. but do to lack of specificity it probably wont! ;-) Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:09:10 -0600 From: Kenneth Hagerup To: wwi Subject: Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries Message-ID: <35238DF6.7157@prodigy.net> Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton wrote: > > Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador wrote: > > > > stephen zaloga's "soviet tanks and armored vehicles 19xx-1945" has drawings > > of many ww1 armored cars and trucks (the imperials used quite a few rr and > > rr-derivative vehicles), tractors, and light tanks. some may be in 3 view, > > and there are relatively many photos of a-cars and vehicles of this period. > > > > if you'd like, i could attempt to dig it out and veryfiy... (it's packed > > right now...) > > > > phillip > > > Phillip, > > No immediate hurry - i don't think would justify an expedition to the > bottom of thelast box of books - I've got to drill a gazillion little > holes in that *$%@! flying boat hull first -did you know the mahogany > hull was held together with immense numbers of brass screws? > > Should you unearth it at some stage in the future I'd appreciate it if > you could let me know then. > > Many thanks > > Aidrian I've got this book at easy reach on my shelf. It does have a pretty thorough section on Russian armored cars, including sections on imprted carssuch as Armstrong-Whitworth, Isotta-Fraschini, Sheffield-Simplex, Austin and Lanchester cars. Let me know if you need scans of any of the drawings. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:00:02 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: World War 1 Modelling List Subject: Over the News-stands Message-ID: <199804021400.AA16364@egate2.citicorp.com> Air Enthusiast No 75 is out with the 2nd installment of the 'Young Turks' articles, the third is to be published in June. Some nice (by which I mean rare) shots of German A/c in Turkish markings plus a colour profile of Fokker D.I 185/16, although it is acknowledged as being based on a sister ship (190/16). In the forum over at the Aerodrome, I said I didn't think any Fok D.I's or D.II's made it to Turkey. Boy, is my face red. Also seen for the first time by me, is a French mixed aviation modelling/historical periodical called Wing Masters selling at GBP5.00 each from Motorbooks in the UK or FF235 per annum (six issues?) on subscription from: Histoire & Collections 5, avenue de la Republique, 75541 Paris, Cedex 11 Tel 01 40 21 18 20/Fax 01 47 0051 11 (no e-mail address that I can find) The issue I picked up has ten pages of on-topic text (out of 82),titled 'L'Aviation Allende Passe a l'offensive', written by Yves Buffetaut, and two pages with 6 colour profiles of well known a/c (Raben and Jacob's DrI, Hantleman's (sp) Fok D.VII (captioned as a D.VIII!), Hecht's Pfalz D.III, with a green tail this time!, and a Hannover CLIII and Alb D.V from unknown units, all by Bruno Pautigny. Good quality paper, some interesting detail shots of a Gotha G.IV bomb rack (plate 78 in the Windsock Gotha! book) and a very interesting AEG G.IV rear shot of the engine nacelle, struts and fuselage which is NOT in the G.IV datafile. There is a nice shot of a lovely fuselage marking on an pre-March 1918 Alb D.Va, of a character with a long coat with long sleeves, carrying what looks like a feather duster(?) in one hand and a lantern(?) in the other, on what appears to be a white band around the fuselage, which also has a two-tone band around it diagonally. Contact me off-list, if you'd like a scan. Excellent diorama material, as none of the two a/c have wings on, and there are derelict crates and step ladders all around. Regretfully, my French is poor, so I cannot speak for the accuracy or otherwise of the content and there are some further errors in a/c identification in the captions (a Junkers J.I being identified as a Junk. D.I). I'm eager to know if anyone picked up either of the first two issues if they had any WW1 content, I'll be keeping a watchful eye out for future editions. Who said that the French don't care about WW1 a/c?. Happy modelling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:29:22 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Eder address Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980402092921.006a956c@conted.swann.gatech.edu> From a friend, here's Jack Eder's latest address, Carlos Jack Eder Milit-Air Aviation P. O. Box 20798 Indianapolis, IN 46220 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:22:36 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980402182236.00709fec@philonline.com.ph> Adrian sez, > I've got to drill a gazillion little >holes in that *$%@! flying boat hull first -did you know the mahogany >hull was held together with immense numbers of brass screws? A good reason to do your model in one of those fully painted fuselage dazzle schemes that Bob Pearson has. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:37:23 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Cross and Cockade Vol.11(1980)/nr.1 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980402183723.0070af48@philonline.com.ph> Hi guys, I need some help. Off topic, it may be but the info is in C&C Vol.11/1. Does anyone by any chance have C&C Vol.11(1980)/nr.1? It contains an article by W M Fry entitled, "Mid Air Mauling (Ernst Udet in Africa)". I discovered the existence of this article from the C&C website. Hopefully it contains some info on Udet's Gypsy Moth (D-1581, ex G-EBOU) and Klemm. Can I beg for a photocopy or scan of the article? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:25:30 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: EVR movies Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-02 07:42:45 EST, you write: << At 12:03 AM 4/2/98 -0500, Gary Hackney wrote: >I just finished "Fighting the Flying Circus". One chapter is about an >afternoon spent making a >dogfighting movie with EVR's Spad and a captured Hanover. The footage was >intended to go >back to the states to be shown to the public, apparently as wartime >motivational propaganda. > >Anyone know anything about this, or heard of it? Gary I wondered the same things when I read the book. Since then, I'm pretty sure I've seen at least some of it, either in 4 Years of Thunder or one of the History Channel documentaries. The clip I'm thinking of doesn't show much of the 2-seater since that is where the camera was. It does show the SPAD, flown by EVR maneuvering. HTH. but do to lack of specificity it probably wont! ;-) Mike Muth I know the film snippet you're refering to and I've wondered if this part of the footage EVR mentions in his book. There is film of the Hannover up-ended with a bunch of people standing around, but I've never seen the in-flight stuff.It's about time for my semi-annual inventory of WW I video! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:25:32 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Armoured cars - RNAS especially -and steam lorries Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-02 10:01:45 EST, you write: << Adrian sez, > I've got to drill a gazillion little >holes in that *$%@! flying boat hull first -did you know the mahogany >hull was held together with immense numbers of brass screws? A good reason to do your model in one of those fully painted fuselage dazzle schemes that Bob Pearson has. >> Better you than me! Robert K.(still having 0/400 nightmare visions of rigging and struts) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:38:17 +0200 From: Steve Borland To: WW1 list Subject: Imrie's Triplane Book Message-ID: <3522A5B9.938A14C7@vip.cybercity.dk> Way back in January, someone wanted a copy of this book so much he was willing to pay $87..... One of the local bookshops has a couple of copies at Dkk 110 (around $16 or so). Anybody desperate enough to pay Danish postal charges? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:17:05 -0800 (PST) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine Message-ID: Dear Gary: For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much faith in the historical accuracy of anything which Stephen Longstreet has to say (Canvas Falcons). He wrote some good fiction, and when you've said that, you've said it all. To choose just one example of Mr. Longstreet's expertise, he claims that in the period following his head wound, MvR took to "Machine-gunning enemy pilots as they hung helpless in their parachutes." As every member of this list knows, but as Mr. Longstreet's research evidently missed, only German pilots were issued parachutes durring the war. Enough said, I think. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I do want to be very explicit that I am only suggesting that Stephen Longstreet is an unreliable source for historical information: I make no comments about the quality or lack thereof, of the Liberty Engine. Regards, Patrick P.S. Okay, okay: MvR DID shoot his own pilots as they hung helpless in their parachutes! He was such an evil minded little twisted killer, that he could no longer distinguish between friend and foe! And besides, if the pilots had gotten their airplanes shot out from under them, in his opinion they deserved to die! This was covered up by the same Imperial High Command conspiracy that had "made" MvR an ace in the first place, with their lies and propaganda about his "victories." (They even employed spies to doctor the RFC and RAF records, so that the majority of MvR's claims could be "substantiated" by the British!) Realising that MvR was totally out of control, the High Command realised that to protect the legend they had created, they now had to arrange his death in combat. They rigged his Dr.1 to fly west at an extremely low altitude, rigged his compass to give reverse readings, and infiltrated spies among the British and ANZAC positions to stand among the gunners and shout, "Hey, shoot at that red aeroplane!" In fact, Sgt. Popham may well have been a German agent, himself! (Sandy: how's that?) Engaging Evasive Manouvers, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Gary Hackney wrote: > Jane's includes a glowing section on the development of this engine, how > the selfless > engineers put patent rights aside and donated their companies' technologies > to the cause, > developing this wonderful engine in a short time. > > Stephen Longstreet, in "The Canvas Falcons", describes a "shoddy item > called the Liberty motor > that the Detroit auto kings knocked together". > > EVR's 94th, in making the movie I mention in my other note, wrecked the DH9 > they were using > for a camera plane when the engine quit just after takeoff. However, he > criticizes the plane for > its fuel tank location, not for its engine. > > The truth is probably somewhere in between; where might I find a more > even-handed summary > of this motor? > Gary Hackney, who is this week more interested in history than in > modelling... > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:29:42 -0500 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine Message-ID: <3523E726.1023@fast.net> Patrick Padovan wrote: > P.S. Okay, okay: MvR DID shoot his own pilots as they hung helpless in > their parachutes! He was such an evil minded little twisted killer, that > he could no longer distinguish between friend and foe! And besides, if the > pilots had gotten their airplanes shot out from under them, in his opinion > they deserved to die! This was covered up by the same Imperial High > Command conspiracy that had "made" MvR an ace in the first place, with > their lies and propaganda about his "victories." (They even employed spies > to doctor the RFC and RAF records, so that the majority of MvR's claims > could be "substantiated" by the British!) Realising that MvR was totally > out of control, the High Command realised that to protect the legend they > had created, they now had to arrange his death in combat. They rigged his > Dr.1 to fly west at an extremely low altitude, rigged his compass to give > reverse readings, and infiltrated spies among the British and ANZAC > positions to stand among the gunners and shout, "Hey, shoot at that red > aeroplane!" In fact, Sgt. Popham may well have been a German agent, > himself! > (Sandy: how's that?) Engaging Evasive Manouvers, Patrick > ROTFL !!!!! You forgot to call him a "pathetic wretch" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: History's opinion of the Liberty engine Message-ID: Don: Okay, you're right, I did forget: "I feel like MvR. . . i.e., a pathetic wretch!" Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Don RInker wrote: > Patrick Padovan wrote: > > > P.S. Okay, okay: MvR DID shoot his own pilots as they hung helpless in > > their parachutes! He was such an evil minded little twisted killer, that > > he could no longer distinguish between friend and foe! And besides, if the > > pilots had gotten their airplanes shot out from under them, in his opinion > > they deserved to die! This was covered up by the same Imperial High > > Command conspiracy that had "made" MvR an ace in the first place, with > > their lies and propaganda about his "victories." (They even employed spies > > to doctor the RFC and RAF records, so that the majority of MvR's claims > > could be "substantiated" by the British!) Realising that MvR was totally > > out of control, the High Command realised that to protect the legend they > > had created, they now had to arrange his death in combat. They rigged his > > Dr.1 to fly west at an extremely low altitude, rigged his compass to give > > reverse readings, and infiltrated spies among the British and ANZAC > > positions to stand among the gunners and shout, "Hey, shoot at that red > > aeroplane!" In fact, Sgt. Popham may well have been a German agent, > > himself! > > (Sandy: how's that?) Engaging Evasive Manouvers, Patrick > > > > ROTFL !!!!! > > You forgot to call him a "pathetic wretch" > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:01:18 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Cross and Cockade Vol.11(1980)/nr.1 Message-ID: >Hi guys, > >I need some help. Off topic, it may be but the info is in C&C Vol.11/1. > >Does anyone by any chance have C&C Vol.11(1980)/nr.1? It contains an >article by W M Fry entitled, "Mid Air Mauling (Ernst Udet in Africa)". > >I discovered the existence of this article from the C&C website. Hopefully >it contains some info on Udet's Gypsy Moth (D-1581, ex G-EBOU) and Klemm. > >Can I beg for a photocopy or scan of the article? > > >********************************************************************* > >Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, >joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist >tel. (632) 921-26-75 >Metro-Manila, Philippines > > "The more you know, the more you don't know." > >********************************************************************* Cross & Cockade INTERNATIONAL has a web site. Is this the journal you seek ? If so, I can help. Post a snail mail. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 964 *********************