WWI Digest 941

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Felixstowe F3 4258
	by KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
  2) Re: Aircraft of the Fighting Powers
	by "Tom Werner Hansen" <tomwerner.hansen@of.telia.no>
  3) RE: Munsell Color Program 
	by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
  4) Naval Hex camouflage
	by Charles Hart <hartc@spot.colorado.edu>
  5) Re: Bomb source
	by "Tom Werner Hansen" <tomwerner.hansen@of.telia.no>
  6) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
  7) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by Charles Hart <hartc@spot.colorado.edu>
  8) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
  9) new firm?
	by Franco Poloni <frank@lo.itline.it>
 10) Re: new firm?
	by Carlos Valdes <carlos.valdes@conted.gatech.edu>
 11) Re: 375hp RR Eagle VIII
	by Pedro Nuno Soares <pnsoares@mail.telepac.pt>
 12) Re: Felixstowe F3 4258
	by REwing <REwing@aol.com>
 13) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
 14) RE: lozenge tones; wasRe: Munsell Color Program
	by Shane Weier <SDW@qld.mim.com.au>
 15) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by "Chris Banyai-Riepl" <herper@willapabay.org>
 16) Re: Coming WWI kits
	by mbittner@juno.com
 17) Re: Masking - Jasta 5
	by mbittner@juno.com
 18) Re: Dakoplast 1/72 Sikorsky S-XVI
	by mbittner@juno.com
 19) Re: Aircraft of the Fighting Powers II
	by mbittner@juno.com
 20) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by mbittner@juno.com
 21) Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
 22) Re: lozenge tones; wasRe: Munsell Color Program
	by KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
 23) RE: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
 24) american  quentin roosevelt
	by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
 25) Re: american  quentin roosevelt
	by "Charles Duckworth" <cnlduckwor@ninenet.com>
 26) RE: Testors Nie 17 Color
	by Shane Weier <SDW@qld.mim.com.au>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:24:17 EST
From: KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Felixstowe F3 4258
Message-ID: <92f70406.35102d73@aol.com>

In a message dated 98-03-17 14:08:39 EST, you write:

<< Well the subject for Robert Karr's next massive scratchbuild (but don't
tell
 him, as he doesn't know he is building it yet) has just been posted at 
  >>
YYYYYEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To allow my recent 0/400 induced brain swelling to subside, the next project
may have to contain A.one wing,B.no rigging, C. involve no unpleasant bending.
Rrrrrrrrobbbbbbbbert K.

P.S. BTW- neat Felixthecatstowe!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:35:50 +0100
From: "Tom Werner Hansen" <tomwerner.hansen@of.telia.no>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: Aircraft of the Fighting Powers
Message-ID: <199803182025.VAA00321@d1o211.telia.com>

Bob and Matt

Assuming that the book in question really is the"Aircraft of the 1914-1918
War" Re-published by Harleyford I can supply the following:

The book was compiled by O.G.Thetford and E.J.Riding.
My copy  was printed in 1954 and is not the original edition which was
published by The Harborough Publishing Co. in 1946.
It is in the same format as the series "Aircraft of the Fighting Powers"
which deals with WWII stuff, and in a way based on this format, as
acknowledged by the editor in his preface. These books were also written by
Mr. Thetford.
I could not find any reference to the draughtsman in the Harleyford book,
but on perusing Thetford's preface to "Aircraft of the Fighting Powers Vol
VII" I find that Mr Riding did the drawings for this book, so he must have
done the ones for the WWI book as well. The drawings in the two books are
obviously by the same pen.

There are drawings in 1/72 scale with a page of specifications and history
of practically all the well-known operational planes of the war, 82 types
altogether, Then there is an appendix with a description plus i photograph
of another 24 "lesser-known operational types, variants and experimentals"+
some pages of pictures of "experimental and rare types"

The drawings, although well executed, must be taken with large grains of
salt in view of their age. I would have been exceedingly happy to have had
these in the early sixties when I was scratch-building models, but to-day
there are better sources available.
(I checked some of the drawings against the Davilla and Soltan brick, and
after taking only a quick look must say that my immediate scepticism seems 
founded) For instance: Mr Riding did not find out that the distance between
the lower longerons of the Nie.17 was narrower than that between the upper,
the shape of the rudder of same Nie. 17 looks wrong. In other words, I
doubt I'd base a model on Riding's drawings.
They are, according to Thetford's preface, the first attempt at a series of
standardized drawings of their subjects.

I enjoy having the book, and the quality of the printing of the bw photos
is quite good. A few have been touched-up a bit, but all are basically
good.

The Jane's book is a totally different thing.
The drawings in the book come from all kinds of sources, and the selectioon
of drawings are totally haphazard, and according to which aircraft
manufacturers bothered to send drawings to Jane's for publication. Some
drawings are OK, some are totally useless from a modelling pointof view
(although interesting)
What the book has, though, is a number of detail drawings and photographs,
especially in the German section of the book.
Of interest is the 60 page section on aero engines at the back of the book,
masses of useful drawings and pictures..

My copy is the re-printed version, which suffers from what must have been a
reduction in size from the original. I don't see how the pages of text can
be read by Braille scalers. (They will enjoy the pictures, though). Also I
have a feeling that the reproduction of the photographs may have suffered.

Both books together are quite enjoyable, Jane's goes into a lot of detail,
sometimes a lot more detail than I care to know about, but then I can
always skip that.

There's nothing wrong with the price of the Harleyford book, I think I paid
more for mine (forgive me Graham, if I'm wrong), and was quite happy with
that.
Does it come with a dust jacket, If it doesn't, then Graham can send you a
nice scan.

Tom


> From: Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
> Subject: Re: Aircraft of the Fighting Powers
> Date: 18. mars 1998 10:11
> 
> Bob Pearson wrote:
> > 
> > Matt,
> > 
> > I am unfamiliar with this book. What does it contain? Any idea who the
> > draftsman is?
> > 
> > regards,
> >        Bob Pearson
> > 
> > ----------
> > > From: Matt Bacon <mattb@london.virgin.net>
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
> > > Subject: Aircraft of the Fighting Powers
> > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:09:24 -0500
> > >
> > > I can buy a copy of the WW1 version for GBP15. My question is, are
the
> > > nice-looking fold-out 1:72 plans accurate and worth it? Will it add
much
> > > that I don't have in the Janes WW1 Aircraft facsimile?
> > >
> > > Any advice?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Matt
> 
> I suspect that this isn't a volume of 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers'
> but is instead 'Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War' also produced by
> Harleyford to the same formula.
> 
> >From memory the 1:72 plans were prepared in the late 50's and will be of
> questionable accuracy.  However the price is not bad.
> 
> Tom Hansen has a copy of this book and the Janes volume, and may be able
> to offer a more critical appraisal of one versus the other, but I would
> say that the pictures are clearer in the Harleyford title, which also
> covers a number of 'rara avis', plus many 3 view profiles which Jane's
> lacks.
> 
> My GBP 0.02 worth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:31:29 -0600
From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: RE: Munsell Color Program 
Message-ID: <01BD527A.8B52F780.panz-meador@vsti.com>

ivan:  check the archives of the new group for a couple of threads 
concerning german naval hex.  i believe that the bolts of cloth were 
1.3-1.4 m wide, and there were two varieties.  as you may know, 
americal/gryphon decals does naval hex; you might check with them and/or 
charles hart, whom i believe was associated with them at one time.

please disregard my earlier message of today.

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From:	infosilver@czechia.com [SMTP:infosilver@czechia.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, March 18, 1998 2:05 PM
To:	Multiple recipients of list
Subject:	RE: Munsell Color Program


On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:14:58 -0500  Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador wrote:
>ivan:  let me know if you didn't received the full list; i sent it again

>yesterday.  the list has Metheun, Munsell, RGB, CMYK, and bob pearson's
>"old" CMYK (the ones you used in your web page).
>
>also, i forgot to ask:  where did you get the conversion from Metheun to

>Munsell systems?  by comparing both books?  if so, i was wondering if
you'd
>be interested in austro-hungarian lozenge (painted) color conversions,
as i
>have the Metheun color specs for these...let me know if interested.
>
>phillip
>
Thanks Phillip,

the file came through fine this time. I've just sent updated colours to
http://www.czechia.com/silverbird/wwi/wwipm.htm. The shades are quite
subdued this time and suit better to my eyes.  Munsell references
originate from an old issue of Scale Models magazine listed in the
sources and I raised them from A. Wrights WWI page.

Now I'm working on German naval loz (quite simple with all hexagons of
same size), but I'm lacking information on (1) the width of hexagonal
pattern (2)size of individual hexagons (3) proper colour shades.

I'm certainly interested in any available info on WWI aviation camouflage
patterns and colours.

Cheers!
Ivan Subrt



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:16 -0700
From: Charles Hart <hartc@spot.colorado.edu>
To: wwi
Subject: Naval Hex camouflage
Message-ID: <l03102804b135e4a34824@[128.138.153.98]>

A surviving piece of this material was described by Dan San-Abbot in an
issue of WW I Aero.  The fabric belongs to Peter Grosz and I have seen
photos of this, the colors are quite dark.  Look for a representation of
these colors in an upcoming issue of Chandelle.  This existing fabric was
used for the development of the current issue of the Naval Hex camouflage
decals produced by Americal/Gryphon, sheet #1 is 1/72, sheet #14 is the
1/48 version.

The hexagons are 15 cm measured across their flat sides.

Charles

hartc@spot.colorado.edu

>
>Now I'm working on German naval loz (quite simple with all hexagons of
>same size), but I'm lacking information on (1) the width of hexagonal
>pattern (2)size of individual hexagons (3) proper colour shades.
>
>I'm certainly interested in any available info on WWI aviation camouflage
>patterns and colours.
>
>Cheers!
>Ivan Subrt
>




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:38:34 +0100
From: "Tom Werner Hansen" <tomwerner.hansen@of.telia.no>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: Bomb source
Message-ID: <199803182025.VAA00327@d1o211.telia.com>

Cure under what kind of pressure?
Right now I'm using the pour and pray approach.

Tom

----------
> From: James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
> Subject: Re: Bomb source
> Date: 18. mars 1998 14:57
> 
> Tom,
> 
> With regard to capturing the detail on the bomb's fins:  pressure would 
> probably help.  A friend of mine who does a lot of casting (he owns a 
> company that produces 1/200 aircraft in resin) has told me in the past
that 
> letting the resin cure under pressure goes a long way towards filling
small 
> details.
> 
> Hope this helps but it is probably only worth it if you are making a fair

> number of bombs or intend to cast other parts.  For short runs it may
just 
> be worth it to pour and pray and accept whatever percentage of rejects
you 
> get (that's what I've done in the past).
> 
> James Gibbons

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:28:58 -0800 (PST)
From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <199803182128.NAA03204@ednet1.orednet.org>



Robert K. writes:

>In a message dated 98-03-18 13:45:10 EST, you write:
>
><< I use a light gray with a little Al mixed in.  The so-called Al finish 
> actually was a white/gray with some Al powder mixed in to help it stand 
> up to the sun.  By all accounts that I have seen, it did not look like Al 
> paint of today
>  >>
>An old C&C (part of Project Butterfly?)article gave the formula for French
>silver dope, and unlike German silver gray, no black or white pigment was put
>into the mix- only pure alu powder mixed into clear dope.


But recognize that powdered aluminum is not particularly metallic
in appearance.  The surface of aluminum rapidly oxides and the
appearance of aluminum oxide is not shiny but rather something
probably best described as whitish-grey. 

Cheers and all,


--
                 Bill Shatzer  - bshatzer@orednet.org

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:45:01 -0700
From: Charles Hart <hartc@spot.colorado.edu>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <l03102805b135f08d14d4@[128.138.153.98]>

>Robert K. writes:
>
>>In a message dated 98-03-18 13:45:10 EST, you write:
>>
>><< I use a light gray with a little Al mixed in.  The so-called Al finish
>> actually was a white/gray with some Al powder mixed in to help it stand
>> up to the sun.  By all accounts that I have seen, it did not look like Al
>> paint of today
>>  >>
>>An old C&C (part of Project Butterfly?)article gave the formula for French
>>silver dope, and unlike German silver gray, no black or white pigment was put
>>into the mix- only pure alu powder mixed into clear dope.
>
>
>But recognize that powdered aluminum is not particularly metallic
>in appearance.  The surface of aluminum rapidly oxides and the
>appearance of aluminum oxide is not shiny but rather something
>probably best described as whitish-grey.
>
>Cheers and all,
>
>
>--
>                 Bill Shatzer  - bshatzer@orednet.org

   But recognize that aluminum bits immersed, nay encased, within more or
less clear dope and not in contact with air will look just like aluminum
bits.

Charles

hartc@spot.colorado.edu



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:43:05 EST
From: KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <6d8b1729.35103feb@aol.com>

In a message dated 98-03-18 16:30:07 EST, you write:

<< But recognize that powdered aluminum is not particularly metallic
 in appearance.  The surface of aluminum rapidly oxides and the
 appearance of aluminum oxide is not shiny but rather something
 probably best described as whitish-grey. 
 
 Cheers and all,
 
  >>
Indeed as I found out in my initial experiments.This was why I included some
matte clear in the mix.It lent a somewhat  "frosty" oxidized flavor, although
I probably should've increased the matte portion a little more.The matte
didn't really dull the mess so much as alter the look from pure metallic.
Robert Karr , S.O.L.M.A.A.I.S.T.T.C.(Society of Lunatic Modeling Amateur
Alchemists In Service To Their Craft)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:37:50 +0100
From: Franco Poloni <frank@lo.itline.it>
To: wwi
Subject: new firm?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980318223750.0068bfb4@lo.itline.it>

Hi all
I bought a French magazine, named Wing Master, and there was mention of 2
kit from a new firm (new to me, at least), Flashback.
It seems to produce kit based on the old Eduard kit such as Fokker E5
upgraded with Aires resin parts and p\e.
Do someone on the list knows this firm?
Thanks
Franco 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:00:37 -0500
From: Carlos Valdes <carlos.valdes@conted.gatech.edu>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: new firm?
Message-ID: <350F1CB5.444B@conted.gatech.edu>

Franco,
	So far, three "new" kits have been produced: the E.V/D.VIII, the E.III,
and the Pup. They are the Eduard plastic with new resin parts,
instructions, and decals, and are more expensive than the orginial kits.
I have wondered how closely linked Eduard and Flashback are.
				Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:01:24 +0100
From: Pedro Nuno Soares <pnsoares@mail.telepac.pt>
To: "'ww1 modeling list'" <wwi>
Subject: Re: 375hp RR Eagle VIII
Message-ID: <01BD52C1.E8AD9E20@fei1-p14.telepac.pt>

Bob wrote

Greetings all,

I am working on a profile of the 375hp Rolls-Royce Eagle VIII. I have =
the GA
and b/w photos in WW1 Aero 135 to go by, but would like to see some =
colour
photos if anyone has any.

Regards,
        Bob Pearson



Hi Bob,

I have 4 shots (taken recently at the national maritime museum) of a Mk =
VIII that was recently dismounted from the Fairey IIID that was used by =
the Portuguese Aviators Gago Coutinho and Sacadura Cabral for the first =
crossing of the South Atlantic. The engine must still be in its original =
colors and if you can wait until next Friday, I'll ask my wife to scan =
them so that I can e-mail them to you.

Anyway the engine seems to be painted in an overall brownish paint with =
black cylinder coves valve rockers (guess that's what they are called) =
and exhaust stacks. My references also show that these were 350hp not =
375 hp.

Let me know if you can wait till friday.

Um abraco

Pedro

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:17:04 EST
From: REwing <REwing@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Felixstowe F3 4258
Message-ID: <be1c7ce1.351055f2@aol.com>



<< Well the subject for Robert Karr's next massive scratchbuild (but don't
tell
 him, as he doesn't know he is building it yet) has just been posted at
.......>>

Beautiful!!  
-Rick-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:27:36 -0800 (PST)
From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <199803182327.PAA25379@ednet1.orednet.org>




Charles writes:

>   But recognize that aluminum bits immersed, nay encased, within more or
>less clear dope and not in contact with air will look just like aluminum
>bits.

Of course - but the aluminum powder was going to be in contact with
air (and thus oxidizing) for some considerable period _before_ it
was immersed, nay encased, in a clear dope, I would think.

While I'm speculating, I would think that the aluminum powder would
be created at an "aluminum powder factory" someplace and shipped
to the paint shop where it would sit in the store room for some
days, at the least, before being mixed with the dope.  It seems unlikely
that the aluminum powder would be shipped and stored in hermetically
sealed vacuum containers and thus it would have more than adequate time
to react with air and obtain a fair patina of dulling
aluminum oxide.  If I remember my college chemistry correctly,
the oxidation of aluminum to aluminum oxide is a quite rapid
process and aluminum oxide forms fairly quickly in the presence
of air.  

Thus it would not take much time for the "aluminum powder" to become
"aluminum oxide coated aluminum powder" - and it would likely be
in that condition (and color) when added to the dope.

But, this is, admittedly, guessing.


Cheers and all,



--
                 Bill Shatzer  - bshatzer@orednet.org

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:29:18 +1000
From: Shane Weier <SDW@qld.mim.com.au>
To: wwi
Subject: RE: lozenge tones; wasRe: Munsell Color Program
Message-ID: <199803182341.JAA27879@mimmon.mim.com.au>

Robert posts:

>I just bought WW I Aero # 102 December 84 and it contains a long
article by
>Dan SanAbbot about Fokker D VII covering practices by all the main
builders.An
>interesting little piece of info is that all the surfaces covered in
the top
>lozenge recieved a final coat of purposely brown-tinted varnish to tone
down
>the bright colors but the final weather proofing applied to the bottom
was
>clear and un-tinted.

This is a usefull article which is worth a read particularly for the
mechanics of fabric application, rib and edge taping and so on - then
treating with a degree of suspicion.

I don't doubt that many of DSB's pronouncements are true, but the
correlation of aircraft manufacturer/serials with fabric types is a
sweeping generalisation at best. It took me 5 minutes with the original
D.VII datafile to find two exceptions to this list, the recent special
has many more

Regards

Shane

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:35:56 -0800
From: "Chris Banyai-Riepl" <herper@willapabay.org>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <001301bd52c6$9a28a880$9f4ffbce@chrisban>


>Thus it would not take much time for the "aluminum powder" to become
>"aluminum oxide coated aluminum powder" - and it would likely be
>in that condition (and color) when added to the dope.
>
>But, this is, admittedly, guessing.
>
>
>Cheers and all,
>                 Bill Shatzer  - bshatzer@orednet.org

To continue along these lines, since the aluminum is in powder form, it
would be stored in some kind of drum, in which only the top part of the
supply would come in contact with the air, regardless of how long it was
stored.  Thus, when it was mixed with the clear dope, only a small portion
of it would be aluminum oxide, the rest being virgin aluminum powder.

Of course, this is further guesswork based upon a previous guess, so it
could be WAY out there.

Chris
..
------------------------------------------
"Study men, not historians."
Harry S. Truman (1884-1972), U.S. democratic politician, president. Quoted
in: Robert H. Ferrell, Off the Record (1980).
------------------------------------------
Alga Computer Systems
http://willapabay.org/~herper/
------------------------------------------
Aviation What-Not
http://www.willapabay.org/~herper/aviation



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:32:25 -0600
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Coming WWI kits
Message-ID: <19980318.173836.4846.1.mbittner@juno.com>

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:21:52 -0500 Carlos Valdes
<carlos.valdes@conted.gatech.edu> writes:

>	Thanks for the report, Ivan. Is it Eduard's plan to come out
with all
>these kits this year?

Ivan, any word on the next batch of Toko WW1?  I'm growing impatient for
the Nie.11...Figure that one out. :-)


Matt Bittner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:17:40 -0600
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Masking - Jasta 5
Message-ID: <19980318.173836.4846.0.mbittner@juno.com>

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:09:20 -0500 bucky@postoffice.ptd.net
(Mary-Ann/Michael) writes:

>        That's pretty much what I tried with the just completed 
>Hurricane.
>Worked out pretty good. I masked using some green colored masking tape 
>put
>out by 3-M that I bought at a paint store. It was wide enough for
>1/48...although I guess that doesn't matter to you. My only question 
>is why
>shrink it 90%?

It was just used to show what I meant.  I pulled 90% out from somewhere.


Matt Bittner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:35:53 -0600
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dakoplast 1/72 Sikorsky S-XVI
Message-ID: <19980318.173836.4846.2.mbittner@juno.com>

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:06:11 -0500 infosilver@czechia.com writes:

>on Sunday I returned from modeling contest held at Beroun nearby 
>Prague. 
>Almost no WWI entries (exactly two - Eduard 1/48 HB D.I and Alb.D.V), 
>but 
>I managed to get first samples of new Dakoplast 1/72 Sikorsky S-XVI 
>kits.

<snip>

I want to chime in here.  If the S-XVI is anything like their Yak-9 I'm
working on (thanks, Ivan!) this is bound to be a beaut!  Any idea how we
mere mortals can get our hands on one?  Are you planning on getting more
in?


Matt Bittner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:38:21 -0600
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Aircraft of the Fighting Powers II
Message-ID: <19980318.173836.4846.3.mbittner@juno.com>

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:50:07 -0500 bucky@postoffice.ptd.net
(Mary-Ann/Michael) writes:

>        Just an aside...when do you and Matt and the other guys on 
>this list
>with the huge databases get the time to input this stuff!!! I am 
>definately
>not complaining, just sorta stunned by the massive amount of data you 
>guys
>collect and graciously share.

I actually started my database - in a different form - when I got back
into modeling, which means modeling WW1 (when I finished with my
"college/woman" break from models, I jumped right into WW1).  This was 10
years ago.  So, as I get new "stuff" in, it usually gets added right away
(although I have all of Vol 3 of OtF that was just received a month ago
still collecting dust...).

Plus, most of my books are not cataloged yet.  Books meaning "hardback"
with more than one type of aircraft in it.


Matt Bittner

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:44:40 -0600
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <19980318.175917.4846.4.mbittner@juno.com>

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:30:59 -0500 bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
writes:

>Of course - but the aluminum powder was going to be in contact with
>air (and thus oxidizing) for some considerable period _before_ it
>was immersed, nay encased, in a clear dope, I would think.

One thing I have been thinking of.  When you see profiles of Nie.17's in
the aluminum finish, most of those profiles shows the cowl and
surrounding metal areas very shiny.  I don't think that's correct,
especially with the castor oil being flung everywhere.  Discussion?


Matt Bittner

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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:49:54 EST
From: KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <41df45fc.35106bb4@aol.com>

In a message dated 98-03-18 18:59:43 EST, you write:

<< One thing I have been thinking of.  When you see profiles of Nie.17's in
 the aluminum finish, most of those profiles shows the cowl and
 surrounding metal areas very shiny.  I don't think that's correct,
 especially with the castor oil being flung everywhere.  Discussion?
 
 
 Matt Bittner >>
 My take on that is it's just a convention to show the differentiation of
maybe-maybe not-partially-or-not-at-all possibly-oxidised-or-not aluminum dope
and natural metal.
Robert K.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:49:55 EST
From: KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: lozenge tones; wasRe: Munsell Color Program
Message-ID: <8058bf7c.35106bb5@aol.com>

In a message dated 98-03-18 18:30:05 EST, you write:

<< I don't doubt that many of DSB's pronouncements are true, but the
 correlation of aircraft manufacturer/serials with fabric types is a
 sweeping generalisation at best. It took me 5 minutes with the original
 D.VII datafile to find two exceptions to this list, the recent special
 has many more
 
 Regards
 
 Shane >>

I seem to remember a thread along these lines some time ago concerning
DSanAbott's sometimes pronouncements from on high. He does get a little "this
is the way it was and no other" sometimes and never really seems to appear to
acknowledge field variations or possible factory anomolies.In the context of
the article, he seemed to be on track with his varnish comments.(notice the
"seems","sometimes",appears"- hey- I'm watching my step here!)
Robert K.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:00:21 -0600
From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: RE: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <01BD52A0.1A5A1C40.panz-meador@vsti.com>

robert:  thanks for that info.  i bought a bottle of very fine Al powder 
about a month ago, and am planning to (a) mix it with a clear acrylic to 
varying concentrations and (b) apply it over a piece of plastic painted 
CDL.  when i have time, that is... (sigh)

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From:	KarrArt [SMTP:KarrArt@aol.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, March 18, 1998 2:18 PM
To:	Multiple recipients of list
Subject:	Re: Testors Nie 17 Color

In a message dated 98-03-18 14:14:07 EST, you write:

<< just a thought, but has anyone tried using very fine Al powder (such as 
may
 be found in art supply stores) in a suspension medium, say tamiya's clear
 acrylic?  if i understand the process correctly, aluminum power was
 originally added to clear dope and then brushed over the aircraft's
 surface.

 phillip >>

It's been awhile since I needed this color, but when I built the 
Hawk/Testors
Nieuport 17 a few years ago I got one of the metalizers (Testors I think),
poured off most of the fragile, highly evaporative medium and replaced it 
with
a mix of about 30% matte and 70% clear gloss and I was very pleased with 
the
results, the metalizer pigment is VERY fine and it didn't just look like
aluminum paint.
Robert K.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:14:34 -0600
From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: american  quentin roosevelt
Message-ID: <01BD52A2.1693B380.panz-meador@vsti.com>

quentin roosevelt was the youngest son of teddy roosevelt, and scored 1 
victory in ww1 before he was shot down by JG2 in july 1918.  i understand 
that the germans distributed postcards of his body propped against the 
wreckage of the plane (beastly).  anybody have any ideas as to the color 
scheme of the plane QR was shot down in?  he was with the 95th aero 
squadron (the kicking mules) at the time, though i've not had a chance to 
dig out whether they had transitioned to the Spad XIII from the Nieuport 28 
by that date.

TIA,

phillip


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:21:32 -0600
From: "Charles Duckworth" <cnlduckwor@ninenet.com>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: american  quentin roosevelt
Message-ID: <199803190126.TAA16675@mail.primary.net>

America's First Eagles page 164 has the photo your talking about with him
lying by the fuselage (or what's left of it.)  Nieuport 28 appears to be
aircraft number 14 and one can make out the Kicking Mule logo.  The 95th
received their SPAD 13s later that August.  Photos of both aircraft types
in 95th colors on page 104 of Wings of Honor.

Hope this helps, Charlie  

----------
> From: Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador <panz-meador@vsti.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
> Subject: american  quentin roosevelt
> Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 7:14 PM
> 
> quentin roosevelt was the youngest son of teddy roosevelt, and scored 1 
> victory in ww1 before he was shot down by JG2 in july 1918.  i understand

> that the germans distributed postcards of his body propped against the 
> wreckage of the plane (beastly).  anybody have any ideas as to the color 
> scheme of the plane QR was shot down in?  he was with the 95th aero 
> squadron (the kicking mules) at the time, though i've not had a chance to

> dig out whether they had transitioned to the Spad XIII from the Nieuport
28 
> by that date.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> phillip

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:44:37 +1000
From: Shane Weier <SDW@qld.mim.com.au>
To: wwi
Subject: RE: Testors Nie 17 Color
Message-ID: <199803190156.LAA28385@mimmon.mim.com.au>

Bill and Charles debate:

Bill:
> >But recognize that powdered aluminum is not particularly metallic
> >in appearance.  The surface of aluminum rapidly oxides and the
> >appearance of aluminum oxide is not shiny but rather something
> >probably best described as whitish-grey.
> 
Charles:
>   But recognize that aluminum bits immersed, nay encased, within more
or
>less clear dope and not in contact with air will look just like
aluminum
>bits.

Oh dear. It being some 20+ years since my undergrad materials science
courses were done I may get this a little wrong but no too far out.

Aluminium is *extremely* quick to oxidise. This might seem entirely
wrong because as we all know it apparently doesn't "rust" away like
steel does. However the reason for this is that the oxide forms quickly,
is of the same size (or near enough) as the metal and therefor doesn't
scale off continually, and forms a thin, dull, impervious layer over the
true metal, thereby protecting it from further oxidation.

The material used in aluminised dopes is *very* finely powdered
aluminium metal.  *Dust* sized particles, or the surface would be rough,
heavy and leave gaps between the particles for the dreaded UV light to
attack the fabric.  Producing this powder (and I should  know the
process name, somewhere in my oldtimers disease affected brain) in
usefull quantities is an industrial process which concludes with a
drum/box/bag of greyish powder -  slightly metallic in appearance. Even
if it was *very* shiny and metallic, it would need to go straight into
the dope or would oxidise to that pale grey tone an aluminium saucepan
has.

The French "aluminium" dopes were standard (for the time) dopes loaded
with this powder only, so will be pale, slightly metallic grey.
"Silbergrau" included lamp black and zinc white so should be a less
metallic shade. Just how you determine the degree of *metallic*
appearance on a model is up to your own taste and skill, though I
contend that a Nieuport should be more metallic (flat aluminium minus)
than a Pfalz (light grey plus)

If you really *must* build a Nieport ;-)

 Not just a theory. I actually have a small vial of aluminium powder
filched on an industrial visit.  I do, after all, work for a mining
company

Shane

------------------------------

End of WWI Digest 941
*********************