WWI Digest 863 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Fokker Dr-1 Site by "John Glaser" 2) Re: Methuen, Fe-8, SPAD XIII (Italian) by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 3) Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) 4) Re: Failled Project. by John & Allison Cyganowski 5) Vasconcells SPAD & Nieuport (was Re: Failled Project.) by Bob Pearson 6) Re: RPM Samochod pancerny FORD Tc (Polish armored car kit from by Alberto Rada 7) Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks by Joey Valenciano 8) Polly Scale by mbittner@juno.com 9) Re: Polly Scale by mbittner@juno.com 10) Re: Internet Message by Kenneth Hagerup 11) Re: Revell Sopwith Tripe notes by Charles Hart 12) Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 13) Re: not forgetful! by KarrArt 14) AF Museum Project by "Mark E. Young, Jr." 15) Re: not forgetful! by Ernest Thomas 16) New Rendition of Fokker Streaks by Dave Watts 17) Re: Revell Sopwith Tripe notes by mbittner@juno.com 18) Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) 19) Mannock by "Sandy Adam" 20) Re: Methuen, Fe-8, SPAD XIII (Italian) by bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 21) Re: More SPAD info requested by fedders 22) Re: Windsock 14/1 by Carlos Valdes 23) Re: Mannock by fedders 24) Imrie's Triplane Book by "David Randall (SMS) (Volt Computer) (Exchange)" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:33:55 -0600 From: "John Glaser" To: Subject: Re: Fokker Dr-1 Site Message-ID: <19980125213335.AAA11950@johng> My goodness! These things are bloody expensive! And I blanched at paying 40 bucks for a Blue Max! - John ---------- > From: Don RInker > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Fokker Dr-1 Site > Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 9:13 AM > > For those who aren't afraid to sit alone in their room staring > at a shelf of dusty plastic ( and even those that are) this > page is for you. > > http://www.gtmodels.com > > Glenn Torrance models 1/4 scale Fokker Dr-1 and sonn D-VIII > CHeck out the customer photos page... > Great work.... > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:47:25 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Methuen, Fe-8, SPAD XIII (Italian) Message-ID: <199801252147.AA12148@ednet1.orednet.org> Toby writes: >Tom Werner Hansen wrote: >> >> At least the boxed collection ESCI called The Red Baron's Circus included Baracca's SPAD XIII. >> Has anybody built this one? Anything wrong with it apart from the >> corrugated wings? Not quite as bad as the Airfix offering, but still. > >I believe its a repackaging of the old Eldon Matchstick kit. "Match Kit" actually, not "Matchstick". > A very >basic Spad with bumpy, inaccurate detail. The Academy kit is the same >molds. Suitable as a donor; I salvaged the thick prop and gave it to a >friend who doesn't usually build WWI. IMHO, the Revell kit is the way to >go. Except for the upper wing and a few details like the "plugged" cockpit and the engraved "spokes" on the wheels, the Eldon/Academy (and about a dozen other reincarnations) kit is substantially the same as the Revell. A little cruder and chunkier perhaps but I wouldn't write it off completely - a decent model can be produced from this kit with only a little more work than the Revell would require. And, it tends to be easier to find than is the Revell, at present anyway. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "If you can see the tracers, the little piss-ants have missed you." Chief Warrant Officer Emet "Stoney" Parker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:46:02 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks Message-ID: Joey asks the following questions regarding the D.VII Anthology: > >Why the suggestion of a brighter green? What proof does the book show? > >I've made the Gabriel D.VII, what does this new book say about it? > >>I like the redo of Berthold's machine. >How is this new rendition different? > Joey, Around page 30 of the Anthology, in a section on factory finishes, there is a concession that there are two schools of thought on streaked camo. The first is that the (traditional) olive is drybrushed over linen, the second (and assumed for most of the profiles) is that two greens (a light and a dark) are blended together with a wet brush - as if the brush were charged with one paint, applied wet, then the same brush is dipped in the second colour and application is continued - blending the colours in somewhat alternating bands. The shocker is to see the colour profiles - the light green is quite brite, almost like a lime green, and this is what now covers Gabriel's machine under the familiar orange and light blue stripes. With respect to Bertold's machine, we finally see red struts instead of black, and some more of this green streaking between the red Jasta 15 cowl and the blue JGII fuselage. Carlos (if I remember right) pointed this out from the photo many months ago. The overpainted fuselage cross also shows through the paint job. Although not shown on the profile, it is suggested that Berthold's "winged sword" may have appeared in black on the upper wing's white patch. Also, this machine is shown in a new paint job after it had been passed on to Beaulieu-Marconnay. As you can imagine, there seems to be much in this book that departs from old standard theories - enough, anyway, to shake us up and look at this plane in a new light. Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:53:14 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi Subject: Re: Failled Project. Message-ID: <34CBC25A.4149@worldnet.att.net> Pedro Nuno Soares wrote: > > > Guys, I went through the site that deals with the 27th pursuit = > squadron ( a very nice job BTW) and this guy Jerry Vasconcells (who was = > a descendant from a Portuguese emigrant) got me wonderin' and looking at = > my Revell SPAD... Anyone with 3 side views of it? (or was it Nieuport?) > > Pedro According to that article (27th Pursuit Site) Jerry Vasconcelles' pictures and memorabilia are gathering dust (uncataloged!) at the Air Force Academy. Perhaps a letter to them might yield something, if nobody has anything. I would also suggest looking Rickenbacker's book or even Hartney's book as they were his contempories and knew him. Anybody have these tomes? John Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:35:41 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Vasconcells SPAD & Nieuport (was Re: Failled Project.) Message-ID: <23354196877624@KAIEN.COM> Pedro, There are photos (and an article) on Vasconells in OTF 3/4. He is shown in Nieuport 28 No.12 as well as beside SPAD XIII No.1 Regards, Bob Pearson nb: Formaplane Rumpler 6B1 (thanks Ira) np: Rumpler 6B1 nl: Lulu - from crayons to perfume ---------- > Pedro Nuno Soares wrote: > > > > > > Guys, I went through the site that deals with the 27th pursuit = > > squadron ( a very nice job BTW) and this guy Jerry Vasconcells (who was = > > a descendant from a Portuguese emigrant) got me wonderin' and looking at = > > my Revell SPAD... Anyone with 3 side views of it? (or was it Nieuport?) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:49:21 -0400 From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Re: RPM Samochod pancerny FORD Tc (Polish armored car kit from Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980125214921.00746944@pop.true.net> Hi Riordan Some time ago I bought the same kit from Squadron, this was my first incursion on Agricultural Vehicles, so I made it out of the box and enjoyed it very much, so now I will be doing one or other thing on the subject, there is a booklet on this vehicle, good news, you get a lot of photos and all the color profiles, the bad news, the text is in Polish, I don't know if Squadron still has it, if not and you want it, please let me know and I'll photocopy it for you. On the Rolls Royce Armoured Car, there is a kit in 1/32 all metal by Scale Link, it is a magnificent model but it is also very expensive + than $ 100.00 I have it, but up to now I have just dared to open, look and close the box, but soon I'll have the nerve. You can find it in USA through Red Lancer. There is a book War Cars, British Armoured Cars in the First World War, that is very enlightening on the subject, lots of photos on the Rolls and a couple on the "T" SALUDOS Alberto At 02:12 PM 25-01-98 -0500, you wrote: >Sorta off-topic, but thought a few might be interested. Picked this up >at a shop yesterday for $8.00+ US, and was generally pleased. The box >art features two of these early Polish AFVs (based on the Model T) w/ >4-color camo in front of a knocked-out Austin-Putilov halftrack. >Good 1/35 kit of an unusual subject - early armored cars. Good moldings >with a bit of cleanup necessary on the spoked wheels. Detail is good all >round with separate chassis and drivetrain,front & rear ends, individual >fittings molded separately, and although not really visible, no engine >is included (anyone know of any sources for 1/35 injection 'T' engine or >drawings at least?) and no turret view/sighting port is depicted. The >Maxim/Vickers could probably be augmented with a replacement from Tamiya >Russian WWII Soldiers kit. Also, no lens supplied for headlight. Subtle >texturing on plate surfaces, but there are no locator tabs, so this one >will take some care to assemble. >I might have to get the DML (Italeri?) Cossacks so this one has >something to gun down >:-) > >Has anyone gotten around to producing a Rolls armored car kit in 1/35 >(or anything larger than 1/72?) for say, under $40? > >Cheers, > >-- >--------------------------------------- >This e-mail has been brought to you by > - Riordan and Michelle Goodwin - > ***************************** > Great Gift Ideas at > Jewels of the Silk Road > http://www.silkroadjewels.com > ***************************** > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:25:01 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980126082501.0069e3a8@philonline.com.ph> >Joey, > >Around page 30 of the Anthology, in a section on factory finishes, ...... Hi Kevin, thanks for the answers. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:08:03 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Polly Scale Message-ID: <19980125.200804.4270.0.mbittner@juno.com> In painting Johnson's Nie.11/16, I have used Polly S for the underneath color, Niche for the green, and Polly Scale for the olive. Polly Scale is the best. Niche is better, while Polly S is the "worst" of the three. However, Polly Scale is light year's from the rest, being the greatest acrylic I have used. Polly Scale is highly recommended. Matt Bittner nb: Nie.11/16 np: Super Bowl (yuck!) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:26:32 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Polly Scale Message-ID: <19980125.202633.13222.1.mbittner@juno.com> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:17:11 -0500 mbittner@juno.com writes: >Polly Scale is the best. Niche is better, while Polly S is the >"worst" of the three. However, Polly Scale is light year's from the rest, >being the greatest acrylic I have used. Polly Scale is highly recommended. Cripes. It's heck operating on a headache. I meant, in terms of great: Polly S; Niche; and Polly Scale. Nothing is better than Polly Scale. I am now off to sleep of this headache. :-( Matt Bittner _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:22:37 -0600 From: Kenneth Hagerup To: wwi Subject: Re: Internet Message Message-ID: <34CBF36D.1823@prodigy.net> Alberto Rada wrote: > there is a > booklet on this > vehicle, good news, you get a lot of photos and all the color profiles, the > bad news, > the text is in Polish, I don't know if Squadron still has it, if not and > you want it, > please let me know and I'll photocopy it for you. > Alberto, I have the 1/72 version of this vehicle. This is a much more basic kit than its larger cousin, lacking rivets and even hatches. The instructions list parts which aren't even included with the kit. At least the wheels are nice. Would it be possible to get a copy of the booklet? Let me know any copying and postage costs. Thanks, Kenneth Hagerup 11419 South 43rd Ave Omaha, NE 68123 USA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:49:45 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Revell Sopwith Tripe notes Message-ID: >In case anyone's interested, I'm finally nearing completion on this one. >There are a few things one needs to be aware of, so here goes: <<>> >cleaning. Refer to rigging diagram in datafile for mysteries of Tripe >rigging. My decal is out of register, and since Tripe wings are peculiar >narrow chord, good luck finding replacements. Aifix RE-8 fuselage >cockades seem to match size for Tripes fus. roundels...try Blue Rider >back issues or Americal. > >P.S. Testor's Rust + Testor's Rubber = fair match for PC10. PC10 >actually "iron oxide with a touch of lamp black." > >Cheers, > >Toby Americal/Gryphon sheet #19 has proper sized roundels for all positions on the 1/72 Sopwith Tripehound, plus a whole lot more. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:57:30 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks Message-ID: <199801260357.AA05970@ednet1.orednet.org> Kevin Barrett writes: -snips- >With respect to Bertold's machine, we finally see red struts instead of >black, and some more of this green streaking between the red Jasta 15 cowl >and the blue JGII fuselage. Carlos (if I remember right) pointed this out >from the photo many months ago. The overpainted fuselage cross also shows >through the paint job. Although not shown on the profile, it is suggested >that Berthold's "winged sword" may have appeared in black on the upper >wing's white patch. Also, this machine is shown in a new paint job after it >had been passed on to Beaulieu-Marconnay. Hmmm! Is photographic evidence of this supplied? I've no problem with the suggested strut color or the streaked portion of fuselage between the blue and the red but I can't detect any trace of a fuselage cross or any sort of emblem on the upper wing's "white patch" in the admittedly some what substandard photos I have of this aircraft - of course, there may have been more than one aircraft or a single aircraft might have carried variations of the same theme at different times. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "If you can see the tracers, the little piss-ants have missed you." Chief Warrant Officer Emet "Stoney" Parker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:16:11 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: not forgetful! Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-25 00:41:25 EST, you write: << Robert, Thanks. I was probably going to remind you next week. How's the 0/400 comming along? Ernest >> Slowly but surely.I've got the internal fuel tanks and other little fiddly bits.I built the fuselage framework first to see if the whole project was feasible and since that went well, now I'll procede to all the tedious details that have to be stuck inside! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:48:39 -0500 From: "Mark E. Young, Jr." To: wwi Subject: AF Museum Project Message-ID: <34CC15A7.1733@infinet.com> Sirs, The Dayton Chapter of IPMS has been requested by the U.S. Air Force Museum to build 1/48 scale models of all the aircraft in their Early Years gallery. We have been able to find kits/drawings for most of the aircraft required, but need some assistance locating and obtaining drawings for several aircraft. We need to scratchbuild the following models. These are to be models used by designers in the redesign of the display area, so dimensional accuracy and sturdyness far outweighs any consideration of detail. If any of your members can guide me to the source of these drawings, or better yet, be able to provide us with a copy, IPMS Dayton and the USAF Museum will be grateful. I realize that a couple of these fall outside the scope of your group, but if that knowledge is available, I would like to tap that source. Three view drawings, with cross sections when available, are required for the following aircraft: Caproni CA-36 Curtiss 1911 Model D Northrop A-17 Wright 1909 Military Flyer Mark E. Young, Jr. Secretary IPMS/Dayton -- Mark E. Young, Jr. IPMS/USA 5494 KC-135A - Built When Man Thought He Could Burn Water ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:19:10 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: not forgetful! Message-ID: <34CC1CCE.765C@bellsouth.net> KarrArt wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-25 00:41:25 EST, you write: > > << Robert, > > Thanks. I was probably going to remind you next week. How's the 0/400 > comming along? > > Ernest >> > Slowly but surely.I've got the internal fuel tanks and other little fiddly > bits.I built the fuselage framework first to see if the whole project was > feasible and since that went well, now I'll procede to all the tedious details > that have to be stuck inside! > Robert R, Forgive my ignorance but I've never scratched anything that ???epic. So you build a frame with all the components inside and then sheet it just like the real thing. That's cool. Do you build a 3-D frame or do you just build everything on to the side sheets, and then join the two sides? ANd if you build it 3-D, do you build it from plastic or metal(brass)? Do you build wings the same way? E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 01:59:02 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980126015902.007d9960@192.168.0.5> A comment or two, on the streaky green finish. I have a copy of Fokker photo Nr.1121. It shows three men in the "doping" or "coloring", room. Clearly, in the background, up, hanging from the rafters, in special hanger racks, can be seen wings, covered in white fabric, with clear "doped?" or white painted square field areas, with large black maltese iron crosses. What's strange, is the square field area surrounding the maltese cross, is quite a bit darker then the surrounding white fabric. It must be the "color" of the dope? Since they do not have ailerons, but do have an "open" center section with a box spar, and nine ribs on each side, I believe these are lower wings for a Fokker DR.I. In the foreground, also up in the rafters, suspended by these hangers, are Fok. DR.I lower wings, uncovered. Hand written numbers, on tags, can be seen on the hangers, and may possibly be the flugel (wing) numbers. Numbers visible in photo are "1025" and "1059". We know, DR.I 512/17 (Werk Nr.2139), had flugel number "1133". On the floor, there are three special "wing racks", which are made up, of two connected saw horses with vertical posts. Six wings are standing, (five on their noses and one on its' trailing edge rib tips), secured by stop blocks, so they don't slide off the horses. They are finishing top, center and lower wings. At left, a man is, I believe, (the back of the wing is to us, so we can not see what he's doing for sure), painting, on the upper surface of the top wing, (less ailerons). More interesting, is the man in the middle. He is brushing the "color", (with a fairly large, maybe 3-4 inch wide, brush), onto the upper surface of a bottom wing. On the floor, immediately beside him are three (1 gallon approx.) "paint" cans, and one "pot" (approx. 3/4 gallon). In two of the "paint" cans, and the "pot", you can see, what I would guess to be, flat stirring sticks. They all show evidence of having contained dark and light colored materials, at one time or another. This photo would support his theory of several colors being applied with one brush. There is another guy at the right of the photo, we can't see with certainty what he's doing, but he has a paint brush in his hand, and may be touching up or applying the white square field to the cross, or more likely, applying the light blue. He's working on the lower surface of the bottom wing, and has a, type of, white pitcher on the floor, beside him, and it appears to contain white material, or light blue, or possibly clear, (more likely light blue, or white, since you can see white drip marks on the saw horse, his shoes, and pants). I still don't see how they can determine the colors with certainty, it just looks like tones of black and white to me. Has anyone heard of surviving examples that have been documented? I believe Manfred Themeyer (sic) had maybe done some research on this. If anyone is interested I can send them a xerox of the photo for free, if you want a laser color copy from Kinko's, you'll have to pay something. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:45:31 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Revell Sopwith Tripe notes Message-ID: <19980126.044629.14318.4.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:22:16 -0500 Riordan and Michelle Goodwin writes: >In case anyone's interested, I'm finally nearing completion on this >one. There are a few things one needs to be aware of, so here goes: One more item I wanted to point out. When I built mine years ago, I also replaced the axel assembly to make it look more "Sopwith". Basically I used (I think) brass rod for the axel, and bent it in the middle. After gluing it to the struts, I then applied a piece of sheet plastic to the bottom, across the struts, and glueing this sheet to the bent section of the axel. Not a true "Sopwith" axel, but it looks the part. Matt Bittner _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:41:52 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: New Rendition of Fokker Streaks Message-ID: >From a previous post: The overpainted fuselage cross also shows >>through the paint job. Although not shown on the profile, it is suggested >>that Berthold's "winged sword" may have appeared in black on the upper >>wing's white patch. > Bill Shatzer asks: >Hmmm! Is photographic evidence of this supplied? > Bill: There is a nicely reproduced (full-frame?) rendition of the Berthold photo on pg. 52 of the D.VII book clearly showing the fuselage cross under the blue paint. An upper wing sword can not be seen in this photo and has been left off of the profile. I don't know what the source is for this hypothesis. HTH, Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:07:40 -0000 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Mannock Message-ID: <199801261212.MAA07385@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Sandy, This Manfred Von Richtofen breaking in here. I don't appreciate = > the nasty things you've been saying about me. Schwienhundt !!! Many thanks for the reply from beyond the grave, Herr von Richthofen (sic). I thought for a moment you were calling me a Schweinhund, but on looking again realise it is a different word - must be some sort of spirit word for somebody who has sussed you out as the fraud you undoubtedly are. Somebody else mentioned Mannock's attitude - surely there is little doubt that Mannock was a basket case in the months leading up to his death. He was clearly suffering extreme mental anguish and doubtless ought to have been in a mental hospital. I have read many accounts of the post-war mental state of RFC pilots (VM Yeats - author of Winged Victory for example - or Roy Brown - I have the PRO records related to Brown post-war who was so nervous he could not drive a car). I have not seen similar documentation on German pilots although it may well exist. Without getting into any risky racial comparisons regarding militarism, I believe the British pilot had the same combat stresses as the German, but also a whole number of additional fears and worries to keep him screaming in his cot at night which the German did not have to put up with. The geography of the Western Front was such that the Germans dug in along the high ground for most of its length. This meant the RFC's primary task throughout the war was observation and spotting. In the General Staff's view, crews had to be largely expendable when compared with the losses on the ground and they had to spend most of their time deep inside enemy territory in unsuitable aircraft. They could only attain altitudes at which they were still easy prey and they, and the scout pilots, had strong headwinds usually to contend with on the journey home. Any mechanical malfunction meant coming down in enemy territory, there were no parachutes, and combat nearly always meant one gun against two. (Read Collishaw's autobiog for his view on this.) I quoted a report from the General Staff some time back, to the effect that the primary role of the RFC was observation, while the primary role of the German Air Service was to knock down our planes. Thus I think the British pilot was terrified most of the time but still had to go over, day after day. The Jasta pilot on the other hand flew a defensive sortie and chose, where, when and if, to attack. He could also usually break-off whenever he chose. This is why the analogy of a hunting party is so appropriate for the Jastas. But a hunter is not a hero - he is just someone who kills. It also helps to explain, (and I think to some extent condone,) why some British pilots had Mannock's regrettable attitude of wishing to ensure that, not only did the enemy plane go down, but that the enemy pilot died on the way. Otherwise he would be up again tomorrow. That Mannock wanted him to be actually burned alive shows he was hardly rational - but given the above and seeing your comrades being set up and picked off every day might make some of the rest of us pretty unhinged as well. The Germans did of course fly reconnaisance missions but had an enlightened Leadership which saw fit to provide them with high-flying machines to do much of it in. Of course there were the men in the Schlastas who drew pretty short straws when it came to choice of occupation - but at least they had purpose built (in some cases, armoured) aircraft to fly in - as opposed to the Camels, SE's and high-altitude Dolphins that the British Generals in their infinite wisdom threw at ground attacks. No, no for most of the war - until the fresh might of America came in at the end - the German pilot had all the cards in his hand and took full advantage. That many British and Commonwealth pilots, like Mick Mannock, had mental problems is hardly surprising - but that many managed to retain an appearance of normality and get on with their job; I find astonishing and much more worthy of the term "hero" than any of the sycophantic crap written about MvR. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:33:39 -0500 From: bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Methuen, Fe-8, SPAD XIII (Italian) Message-ID: <199801261233.HAA04647@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 12:53 PM 1/24/98 -0500, Tom Werner Hansen wrote: >At least the boxed collection ESCI called The Red Baron's Circus included >Baracca's SPAD XIII. >Has anybody built this one? Anything wrong with it apart from the >corrugated wings? Not quite as bad as the Airfix offering, but still. Tom I made this one a few years ago when I started getting back into modelling. The tailskid is too thick. The rest went together easily. A big step above the airfix S-VII. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:51:57 -0600 (CST) From: fedders To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: More SPAD info requested Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Patrick Gilmore wrote: > I am working on a SPAD XIII in USAS colors and was wondering what the > correct color of blue is for the roundels? Every decal sheet I have has a > very different shade of blue ranging from french "lightish" blue, a mid > bright blue to a very dark navy blue. This last is on the Aeromaster 1/48th > SPAD collection which I am using the 22nd Aero markings for this project. I > know there was much variation in the colors during the Nieuport28 period, > but I thought by the time the SPAD was in wide-scale US squadron use that > there was a more-or-less official set of colors for the national markings. Aeromaster is famous for the quality of their decals and also for their inexactness. Americals claims to be the most accurate - and probably is. Glen goes to a lot of trouble to try to get things right. pfed > > Someone recently mentioned an article on the 22nd Aero in C&C magazine but > I lost the e-mail. Could someone let me know what issue that was and also > if there is any source for getting my hands on a copy of this? > > Also, a back issue of Over the Front magazine I have has an excellent > article on the 94th squadron N28s in Toul. In this article it mentions that > there would be a second part in a future issue that would deal with the > 94ths SPADs. Does anyone know if this article was ever done? > > Thanks, > Patrick Gilmore > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:52:13 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Re: Windsock 14/1 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980126145213.006c8b9c@conted.swann.gatech.edu> >> The rest of 14/2? Oh no, guess who appears on page after page. A clue - he was a creepy little German guy who loved killing things and has been over-publicised ever since he ended nose up in a pile of faggots. (Seems appropriate somehow.) >> > >He probably enjoyed the kill as much as Mannock did, who after all is >supposed to have liked to watch them burn as they went down. Perhaps we >can be generous to both sides and say that war has a way of warping >one's values. Cyg, Yours is a reasonable response, but keep in mind who you're responding to. After a while one realizes a stone wall cannot offer a reasoned reply. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:00:07 -0600 (CST) From: fedders To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Mannock Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Sandy Adam wrote: Note> The German and French biult many more 2-seater than 1-seat fighters. The opposite was true of the English. Then how can you say the the Brits were primarily interested in recon and the Germans in shooting down aircraft? pfed > > Sandy, This Manfred Von Richtofen breaking in here. I don't appreciate = > > the nasty things you've been saying about me. Schwienhundt !!! > > Many thanks for the reply from beyond the grave, Herr von Richthofen (sic). > I thought for a moment you were calling me a Schweinhund, but on looking > again realise it is a different word - must be some sort of spirit word for > somebody who has sussed you out as the fraud you undoubtedly are. > > Somebody else mentioned Mannock's attitude - surely there is little doubt > that Mannock was a basket case in the months leading up to his death. He > was clearly suffering extreme mental anguish and doubtless ought to have > been in a mental hospital. > > I have read many accounts of the post-war mental state of RFC pilots (VM > Yeats - author of Winged Victory for example - or Roy Brown - I have the > PRO records related to Brown post-war who was so nervous he could not drive > a car). I have not seen similar documentation on German pilots although it > may well exist. > > Without getting into any risky racial comparisons regarding militarism, I > believe the British pilot had the same combat stresses as the German, but > also a whole number of additional fears and worries to keep him screaming > in his cot at night which the German did not have to put up with. > > The geography of the Western Front was such that the Germans dug in along > the high ground for most of its length. This meant the RFC's primary task > throughout the war was observation and spotting. In the General Staff's > view, crews had to be largely expendable when compared with the losses on > the ground and they had to spend most of their time deep inside enemy > territory in unsuitable aircraft. They could only attain altitudes at which > they were still easy prey and they, and the scout pilots, had strong > headwinds usually to contend with on the journey home. Any mechanical > malfunction meant coming down in enemy territory, there were no parachutes, > and combat nearly always meant one gun against two. (Read Collishaw's > autobiog for his view on this.) > > I quoted a report from the General Staff some time back, to the effect that > the primary role of the RFC was observation, while the primary role of the > German Air Service was to knock down our planes. Thus I think the British > pilot was terrified most of the time but still had to go over, day after > day. The Jasta pilot on the other hand flew a defensive sortie and chose, > where, when and if, to attack. He could also usually break-off whenever he > chose. This is why the analogy of a hunting party is so appropriate for the > Jastas. But a hunter is not a hero - he is just someone who kills. > > It also helps to explain, (and I think to some extent condone,) why some > British pilots had Mannock's regrettable attitude of wishing to ensure > that, not only did the enemy plane go down, but that the enemy pilot died > on the way. Otherwise he would be up again tomorrow. That Mannock wanted > him to be actually burned alive shows he was hardly rational - but given > the above and seeing your comrades being set up and picked off every day > might make some of the rest of us pretty unhinged as well. > > The Germans did of course fly reconnaisance missions but had an enlightened > Leadership which saw fit to provide them with high-flying machines to do > much of it in. Of course there were the men in the Schlastas who drew > pretty short straws when it came to choice of occupation - but at least > they had purpose built (in some cases, armoured) aircraft to fly in - as > opposed to the Camels, SE's and high-altitude Dolphins that the British > Generals in their infinite wisdom threw at ground attacks. > > No, no for most of the war - until the fresh might of America came in at > the end - the German pilot had all the cards in his hand and took full > advantage. That many British and Commonwealth pilots, like Mick Mannock, > had mental problems is hardly surprising - but that many managed to retain > an appearance of normality and get on with their job; I find astonishing > and much more worthy of the term "hero" than any of the sycophantic crap > written about MvR. > > Sandy > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:28:34 -0800 From: "David Randall (SMS) (Volt Computer) (Exchange)" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Imrie's Triplane Book Message-ID: I have the opportunity to purchase this book for $87... (It's via Amazon.com) Is that a ridiculous price, or should I take it at any price? Dave Randall ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 863 *********************