WWI Digest 860 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Ray Brooks' -Question by KarrArt 2) Methuen, Fe-8, SPAD XIII (Italian) by James Gibbons 3) Re: Dh-1A by Don RInker 4) Harry Tate by "Paul Schwartzkopf" 5) New Books found by Graham Nash 6) Re: Dh-1A by djones@iex.com (Doug Jones) 7) Re: Dh-1A by KarrArt 8) Re: Dh-1A by Don RInker 9) Re: Active & Passive Undersides by "Sandy Adam" 10) RE: Lozenge colour shades by Charles Hart 11) RE: Lozenge colour shades by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 12) Re: Dh-1A by djones@iex.com (Doug Jones) 13) Fokker Ersatz Wheels by Matthew Zivich 14) Re: Dh-1A by "Paul Schwartzkopf" 15) Re: Active & Passive Undersides by Patrick Padovan 16) Re: Fokker Ersatz Wheels by Patrick Padovan 17) RE: Active & Passive Undersides by Shane Weier 18) Re: Dh-1A by "Gillian & Ray Boorman" 19) Re: Dh-1A by Ernest Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:19:57 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Ray Brooks' -Question Message-ID: <21f0fc0.34c8368f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-14 20:21:19 EST, you write: << What I'm after is which a/C Brooks was flying when he had the fight with the 8 Fokkers on Sept 14,1918. and landed at the emergency field. This A/c was then writen off as unrepairable. after more reading I believe this was the Spad 13 -#0 Any one else have any thoughts? Barry Rosemont Hobby >> Howdy- give me enough time and I'll find something- even if it's wrong! C&C USA v24 #2 had a large article on the markings of the 22A.S.. Airplane"0" was spad 18815 or 16541.Brooks scored his 6th with 18815 on Oct 9.This airplane survived the war.Nothing else was said about 16541.Perhaps there were2 two"0"s! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:10:46 -0500 From: James Gibbons To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: Methuen, Fe-8, SPAD XIII (Italian) Message-ID: <01BD27D6.6AB9FBA0.jgibbons@vppsa.com> My thanks to everyone who helped me by answering these ywo questions. Oh well the good news is there is an available cross-reference, the bad news sounds like I won't be using it for the colors on an FE-8 anytime soon. Also as a side not to Shane.... I believe the final boxed version of ESCI's 1/72 Spad XIII came with Italian markings didn't it? Thanks again, James Gibbons ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:39:02 -0500 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <34C89D76.C4@fast.net> For anyone interested, I have a line on a new boxed kit of the DH-1A by Arizona Modelcrafters for 500.00 shipped. THis kit sells new for 600.00 plus shipping. ( might be able to negotiate a better price.. dunno ) Makes up into one humongous plane ( 88" span I think) A forest of ribs, over 80 brass turnbuckles. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:56:17 +0000 From: "Paul Schwartzkopf" To: wwi Subject: Harry Tate Message-ID: <199801231358.HAA21518@tscrypt1.transcrypt.com> I just saw an interesting article on building Aeroclub's 1/48 R.E.8 on the Navis web site by Tom Cleaver: http://navismagazine.com Several nice photos. Worth a trip to view! Paul A. Schwartzkopf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:52:13 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: New Books found Message-ID: <199801231450.AA27822@egate2.citicorp.com> For the WW1 tank builders amoung you, I've located 1 copy of something called: Tanks & Trenches-1st hand experiences of WW1 Tank Warfare (I think!) This is a new remaindered book for GBP6.99 -published price was 19.99. Plus, Jane's Aircraft of the First World War is around again at GBP12.99. Let me know if anyone's interested. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:44:06 -0600 (CST) From: djones@iex.com (Doug Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <9801231544.AA13073@deimos.tx.iex.com> > For anyone interested, I have a line on a new boxed kit of > the DH-1A by Arizona Modelcrafters for 500.00 shipped. THis > kit sells new for 600.00 plus shipping. > > ( might be able to negotiate a better price.. dunno ) > > > Makes up into one humongous plane ( 88" span I think) A forest > of ribs, over 80 brass turnbuckles. > This is a great flying airplane! The original competes with a OS .70 motor. The outer wing panels come off in units so the rigging is really quite simple. It is a joy to fly. Slow and majestic. I was fortunate enough to get a chance to fly the prototype after the '97 Scale Masters was over. Doug -- ------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (972)301-1307 | djones@iex.com ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:29:59 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-23 08:39:51 EST, you write: << For anyone interested, I have a line on a new boxed kit of the DH-1A by Arizona Modelcrafters for 500.00 shipped. THis kit sells new for 600.00 plus shipping. >> WW I Aero had an article on this kit.I'm not into large flying models but this thing was impressive.The magazine had an in-flight shot and it I had to do a double-take- I thought it was real ! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:55:10 -0500 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <34C8D97E.432C@fast.net> KarrArt wrote: > WW I Aero had an article on this kit.I'm not into large flying models..." Maybe it's something you should consider. Microscopic plastic gnats are a good training ground for something that requuires "real" skill and daring, like building and replica from a pile of sticks; then having the nerve ( or lack or active brain cells) to fly the thing.. Planes belong in the sky, not on a shelf. ( I will now don flameproof flak suit and await the onslaught of the braile scalers and scale of Kings gurus... :-) but > this thing was impressive.The magazine had an in-flight shot and it I had to > do a double-take- I thought it was real ! > Robert That was that double page centerspread. Every once in a while I wish Leo would add a few color pages to that rag. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:58:26 -0000 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Active & Passive Undersides Message-ID: <199801231802.SAA05888@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Also, the fabric is *taut* not *saggy* at any point on any flying > surface which is expected to fly - it simply won't provide lift if the > fabric can flap and balloon about. Any argument that an aircraft sitting > about in the damp of a French airfield might have saggy fabric is also a > load of tosh - all combatants took great care ............ Hi again guys, perhaps you should consider the following: "In flight we could quite often see the fabric with which the wings were covered rippling from the effect of the air flowing over it. Bad maintenance and lack of proper doping of the fabric to keep it tight would allow it to become slack, and then it could be ripped off, particularly if one had to go into a fast dive. Since we had no parachutes we were all too well aware that these faults could easily develop, and there was ever present in our minds the need to keep an eye on our actual flying and so preserve our aircraft." Sholto Douglas - "Years of Combat" p.119 - then a pilot with Nr8 Sqdn RFC flying BE2c's. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:29:38 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: RE: Lozenge colour shades Message-ID: >On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:26:25 -0500 Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador wrote: >>i also use corel draw & photo-paint; i'd be happy to check this stuff out >if you'll send the color coordinates/references. >> >>phillip >> > >I have placed my first crude attempt to construct the basic segment of 4- >and 5-colour lozenge to http://www.czechia.com/silverbird/wwi/lozsam.htm > >All colour shades have straight CMYK values without any addition of white or >grey. Colours I have no CMYK values for were replaced with (possibly) >similar shades. > >I would greatly appreciate any help, remarks and comments as, eventually, I >am willing to get an ULTIMATE LOZENGE PATTERNS with EXACT COLOUR SHADES ;-) > >BTW, browsing through WWI list archive I stumbled over the term "alternate" >or "alternating" lozenge. Can anybody explain this, please? > >TIA > >Ivan Subrt The decal line from Americal/Gryphon offers two "alternate" lozenge decals, one is an "alternate" 4-color lozenge top pattern. This is based upon some very limited evidence from a surviving piece of lozenge fabric in Australia. Some details on the fabric piece were published in the journal WW I Aeroplanes about 12 years ago. Having never seen the material in question, I remain skeptical that this "alternate" 4-color pattern truly existed. The decals portray the colors found on the "normal" 4-color top pattern but with darker shades. The second "alternate" lozenge is an "alternate" 5-color bottom pattern, again with colors shifted in value from the ones found on a piece of "normal" 5-color bottom fabric. The colors for this "alternate" pattern were based upon fabric swatches owned by a now deceased collector in England. I have seen these fabric pieces and they looked quite different from genuine lozenge fabric I have seen. Subsequently, these fabric swatches, along with many more from the same English collection, were alleged to be forgeries in an article published in Cross & Cockade International in 1995. My take is that both "alternate" schemes as shown by the decals probably didn't exist. This is not to say that NO alternate lozenge fabric color schemes existed, just that the physical evidence for them is very, very limited. My US$ 0.02 worth. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:58:26 -0600 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Lozenge colour shades Message-ID: <01BD2806.FA8B7440.panz-meador@vsti.com> ivan: nice page--however, in looking at the 4-color top, have colors A & B been switched, i.e. the color A's name seemed more appropriate to the other, B, lozenge and vice-versa? also, is the difference between violet and dark blue (5-color top) not apparent on my monitor alone, or are they truly that close in tone and hue in your original software? i look forward to seeing your night, naval, and austro-hungarian hex patterns as well!!!!! phillip -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hart [SMTP:hartc@spot.colorado.edu] Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 12:30 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Lozenge colour shades >>I have placed my first crude attempt to construct the basic segment of 4- >and 5-colour lozenge to http://www.czechia.com/silverbird/wwi/lozsam.htm > >All colour shades have straight CMYK values without any addition of white or >grey. Colours I have no CMYK values for were replaced with (possibly) >similar shades. > >I would greatly appreciate any help, remarks and comments as, eventually, I >am willing to get an ULTIMATE LOZENGE PATTERNS with EXACT COLOUR SHADES ;-) > >BTW, browsing through WWI list archive I stumbled over the term "alternate" >or "alternating" lozenge. Can anybody explain this, please? > >TIA > >Ivan Subrt The decal line from Americal/Gryphon offers two "alternate" lozenge decals, one is an "alternate" 4-color lozenge top pattern. This is based upon some very limited evidence from a surviving piece of lozenge fabric in Australia. Some details on the fabric piece were published in the journal WW I Aeroplanes about 12 years ago. Having never seen the material in question, I remain skeptical that this "alternate" 4-color pattern truly existed. The decals portray the colors found on the "normal" 4-color top pattern but with darker shades. The second "alternate" lozenge is an "alternate" 5-color bottom pattern, again with colors shifted in value from the ones found on a piece of "normal" 5-color bottom fabric. The colors for this "alternate" pattern were based upon fabric swatches owned by a now deceased collector in England. I have seen these fabric pieces and they looked quite different from genuine lozenge fabric I have seen. Subsequently, these fabric swatches, along with many more from the same English collection, were alleged to be forgeries in an article published in Cross & Cockade International in 1995. My take is that both "alternate" schemes as shown by the decals probably didn't exist. This is not to say that NO alternate lozenge fabric color schemes existed, just that the physical evidence for them is very, very limited. My US$ 0.02 worth. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:14:09 -0600 (CST) From: djones@iex.com (Doug Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <9801232014.AA19407@deimos.tx.iex.com> > Maybe it's something you should consider. Microscopic plastic gnats are > a > good training ground for something that requuires "real" skill and > daring, like building and replica from a pile of sticks; then having the > nerve > ( or lack or active brain cells) to fly the thing.. Lack of brain cells would be my guess. > Planes belong in the sky, not on a shelf. I agree! > ( I will now don flameproof flak suit and await the onslaught of the > braile scalers and scale of Kings gurus... :-) Oh man! Look out iiiiinnnnnccccoooommmmmmmmiiiiinnnngggggg!!! > That was that double page centerspread. Every once in a while I wish Leo > would add a few color pages to that rag. That would be nice! Doug -- ------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (972)301-1307 | djones@iex.com ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:23:22 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Fokker Ersatz Wheels Message-ID: The Fok. D-VII at the Smithsonian in DC has strange looking wheels that appear similar to the drum shaped, all metal wheels you would find on those tin, wind-up collector's toys. Since there isn't a speck of rubber on these wheels I was wondering if they are late substitutes for the standard wire spoked, rubber tired wheels that appear on virtually all other aircraft of that period? I also thought they would make interesting variations from the norm for model makers. Matt Z ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:33:58 +0000 From: "Paul Schwartzkopf" To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <199801232035.OAA27617@tscrypt1.transcrypt.com> > Maybe it's something you should consider. Microscopic plastic gnats > are a good training ground for something that requuires "real" skill > and daring, like building and replica from a pile of sticks; then > having the nerve ( or lack or active brain cells) to fly the thing.. > Planes belong in the sky, not on a shelf. > ( I will now don flameproof flak suit and await the onslaught of the > braile scalers and scale of Kings gurus... :-) Been there, done that. Got tired of seeing months of work nose dive into the ground and scatter into a million pieces--let alone the money involved.........I am now going home to grab my flamethrower! Paul A. Schwartzkopf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:41:28 -0800 (PST) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Active & Passive Undersides Message-ID: Dear Sandy: Welcome back! How was the castle? Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:45:20 -0800 (PST) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Fokker Ersatz Wheels Message-ID: Dear Matt: I believe there was a previous discussion of these wheels on the list, in which somebody said that they were wooden wheels, like those used on planes in factories when they were being constructed. I guess the idea was to save on precious rubber until the plane was finished. Anyway, I'm quoting from memory here, not declaring this as a fact! I haven't seen the wheels myself. Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Matthew Zivich wrote: > > The Fok. D-VII at the Smithsonian in DC has strange looking > wheels that appear similar to the drum shaped, all metal wheels you would > find on those tin, wind-up collector's toys. Since there isn't a speck > of rubber on these wheels I was wondering if they are late substitutes > for the standard wire spoked, rubber tired wheels that appear on virtually > all other aircraft of that period? I also thought they would make > interesting variations from the norm for model makers. > > Matt Z > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:42:03 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Active & Passive Undersides Message-ID: <199801232358.JAA21293@mimmon.mim.com.au> Sandy, If anything the response to this: > - all combatants took great care ............ with this: >Bad >maintenance and lack of proper doping of the fabric to keep it tight would >allow it to become slack, and then it could be ripped off, particularly if >one had to go into a fast dive. actually supports my case. Of course, given the exigencies of war there would be times when barely serviceable aircraft were used. But after looking through thousands of photos I can recall seeing only a handfull of them showing wings with apparently slack fabric - excepting the obviously smashed and those on stands being rigged of course Incidentally, what may be "airworthy" on a stable BE-2C in which a "fast dive" wouldn't scare my granny, would never go up on a more agile aircraft lest it come down in bits. Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:33:06 -0800 From: "Gillian & Ray Boorman" To: Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <006001bd2881$2be593c0$5510c2cf@rayboorm> I used to build RC. you spent all winter building and repairing. Then as the spring and summer wore on it was a struggle to maintain two or three flyable aircraft. Its not even always your building or flying skills. I lost one model when some guy decided to do a radio check without checking the board to see if the frequency was in use. However the best/worst I saw and very pertinent to this list was a 1/4 scale Fokker Triplane (In the obvious color scheme). The modeler was a very good builder and the Triplane was the end product of two years work. Since there were bound to be problems on first flight he got the club expert to fly it and get it basically trimmed out. (This is where you do a quick go around to get the basic trim set up). Anyway after doing engine check's, radio checks, running the DRi up and down the grass strip, checking the servo's were not reversed, and all the other things you do before any first flight, they were set. Everyone was watching, and I must say it was an impressive sight. Bright red Triplane sitting at the end of the strip engine ticking over. Looked just like the real thing even down to a Model Manfred in the cockpit complete with flying scarf. Off it rolled down the strip, took off and flew just fine they did a couple of go rounds getting the trim set up on the radio. At this point its usually wise to come back in since its not uncommon to have something come loose. The club expert decide things were going fine so he did some mild stunts. Which on a biplane or in this case Tripane look spectacular, they are so maneuverable. He finished by flying inverted up the landing strip at around 20 feet or so. Unfortunately he really did finish, one of the struts either collapsed or came away taking the top wing on one side with it. Net result was the plane hit the ground at full speed engine first. Two years work and an awful lot of money down the drain in a three minute flight. So I think I'll stick to my shelf sitters. I've only got six year old kids and cats to worry about there! Ray Boorman (Gillian_Boorman@bc.sympatico.ca) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Schwartzkopf To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Dh-1A >> Maybe it's something you should consider. Microscopic plastic gnats >> are a good training ground for something that requuires "real" skill >> and daring, like building and replica from a pile of sticks; then >> having the nerve ( or lack or active brain cells) to fly the thing.. >> Planes belong in the sky, not on a shelf. >> ( I will now don flameproof flak suit and await the onslaught of the >> braile scalers and scale of Kings gurus... :-) > >Been there, done that. Got tired of seeing months of work nose dive >into the ground and scatter into a million pieces--let alone the >money involved.........I am now going home to grab my flamethrower! > >Paul A. Schwartzkopf > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:16:50 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Dh-1A Message-ID: <34C97942.1C4@bellsouth.net> Gillian & Ray Boorman wrote: > Net result was the plane > hit the ground at full speed engine first. Two years work and an awful lot > of money down the drain in a three minute flight. > > So I think I'll stick to my shelf sitters. I've only got six year old kids > and cats to worry about there! > > Ray Boorman (Gillian_Boorman@bc.sympatico.ca) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Schwartzkopf > To: Multiple recipients of list > Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 12:30 PM > Subject: Re: Dh-1A > > >> Maybe it's something you should consider. Microscopic plastic gnats > >> are a good training ground for something that requuires "real" skill > >> and daring, like building and replica from a pile of sticks; then > >> having the nerve ( or lack or active brain cells) to fly the thing.. > >> Planes belong in the sky, not on a shelf. > >> ( I will now don flameproof flak suit and await the onslaught of the > >> braile scalers and scale of Kings gurus... :-) > > > >Been there, done that. Got tired of seeing months of work nose dive > >into the ground and scatter into a million pieces--let alone the > >money involved.........I am now going home to grab my flamethrower! > > > >Paul A. Schwartzkopf > > Not to mention being able to fit alot more Braille scales on the shelf. In addition to the crashes that were my fault, I lost a Sweet Stik to a broken throw arm on an elevator servo, lost a wing in mid flight for no aparent reason on an old Lanier Jester, and been shot down by someone elses radio. Fortunately I came back to plastic before I spent 2 years on an eventual wreck. But it's still a great hobby and more power to em. Ernest ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 860 *********************