WWI Digest 848 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Jagdgeschwader I or Richthofen? by Dave Watts 2) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by KarrArt 3) Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa by Dave Watts 4) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by Ernest Thomas 5) Thunderball Help by Redwilde@bdsbbs.com (Redwilde) 6) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by KarrArt 7) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by Graham Nash 8) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by mbittner@juno.com 9) don't read, test by Joey Valenciano 10) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by "Sandy Adam" 11) Re: Pricing for D-Va by Don RInker 12) Re: Pricing for D-Va by Don RInker 13) Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar by Maciej Szymanski 14) Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar by Jim Alley 15) New D.VII site by Graham Nash 16) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by Graham Nash 17) Re: German pride by bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 18) Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa by bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 19) 1998 WW1 Calendar by "David Randall (SMS) (Volt Computer) (Exchange)" 20) Re: HP 0/400 PC10 vs Nivo by "Charles Duckworth" 21) Bowyers HP 0/400 Book by Graham Nash 22) Syndicate Required to buy rarish Harleyford books... by Graham Nash 23) WW1 1998 Calendar by Graham Nash 24) Info on Pegasus Alb. W4 by Brian Nicklas 25) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by Charles Hart 26) Re: Pricing for D-Va by Dave Watts 27) Re: German pride by Dave Watts 28) RE: WW1 1998 Calendar by "David Randall (SMS) (Volt Computer) (Exchange)" 29) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by KarrArt 30) Re: Handley-Page 0/400 by KarrArt 31) Re: German pride by Patrick Padovan 32) Re: Pricing for D-Va by Don RInker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:36:19 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Jagdgeschwader I or Richthofen? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980114233619.007e8730@192.168.0.5> Fun fact-food for thought. When did Jagdgeschwader I become, Jagdgeshwader Richthofen? Using, Hunting with Richthofen, (Jagd in Flanders Himmel), Bodenschatz's diaries, on pg.87, it states, "On 2 May,--- They encountered a Jagdgeschwader carrying not only the designation "No.I",--- They encountered the "Jagdgeschwader Freiherr von Richthofen", so designated from this time forth, by decree of His Majesty, the Kaiser." April 21st, Manfred was shot down, but they were not certain he was dead until the evening of the 23rd. Officially, May 2nd, it became "JG FvR". While digging through the Daimler archives, I found that on April 22nd and on April 23rd, Daimler shipped 10 motors, on each day, directly to "Jagdgeschwader Richthofen". This was unusual for Daimler to ship motors directly to a flying unit, and the reason may have been, with the recent deliveries of Fokker D.VIIs to JG I, they may have anticipated the need for spare motors, to keep the new "vonder" plane aloft as much as possible. Also, by having "Jagdgeschwader Richthofen" on the crates and shipping papers, instead of "Jagdgeschwader No.I", it would be immediately recognized by all handling the shipment, and get preferred "rush" status. I may be reaching a little, on that one. I was wondering if anyone else has seen "unofficial/official" usage of "JG FvR" before May 2nd. Dave PS. I'm sure they would've wanted a rush on some BMW IIIa motors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:55:08 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-14 23:35:27 EST, you write: << > Anybody out there in list land got any amazing 0/400 stuff lurking > about? Already got the Harleyford drawings? >> Nope.It's been years since I've seen these.When I was a kid my local library had the Harleyford Bomber and recon book! Are the drawings any good? Thanks Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:54:56 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi Subject: Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980114235456.007c1340@192.168.0.5> Thanks, they came through fine. Super-duper job, excellent! Thanks again. Dave > >Greetings All, > >Well the 160hp Mercedes turned out so well I had to do the 180hp D.IIIa, so >anyone who wants this as well let me know. . . . Hmmm, perhaps an engine >profile page would be in order . . . . Al? > >Regards, > Bob Pearson > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:11:51 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <34BDA8A7.4879@bellsouth.net> KarrArt wrote: > > Anybody out there in list land got any amazing 0/400 stuff lurking > about?.Especially ,as always, interior- the cockpit, bomb bay, engine cowl ? > the usual detail stuff. Robert All I could find in my small aviation library is a drawing in a Time-Life book. Sorry. Thanks for the 67jpg btw. E. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1998 01:06:04 EDT From: Redwilde@bdsbbs.com (Redwilde) To: wwi Subject: Thunderball Help Message-ID: <884845449570272@bdsbbs.com> Hi folks, Here's a question for the Thunderball playtesters that I'm also sending out to other mailing lists I'm on. Please feel free to forward this to anyone you know who might be able to help out. For those of you receiving this out of the blue from a friend, Thunderball is an upcoming game publication by Goblintooth Enterprises for a 3-D miniatures game of underwater combat (spearguns, knives, sharks, etc.) using 1/72nd scale figures and the 3-D movement stands from Goblintooth's flagship game, Hostile Aircraft (WWI aerial combat). If this winds up getting circulated onto lists or usegroups of which I'm not a member (or lists that I do belong to but for which this is an off-topic question), please send responses to the address listed at the bottom. Anticipated game publication date is March 1998. Absolute publication deadline is July 1998. Please stop forwarding this message to likely suspects after July 1998. If anyone would like to be notified when the game is published, please let me know. [End preamble.] For the background information of the game, I would like to include as complete a list as possible of contemporary naval commando units (any unit with frogmen). Here is the list as it stands on January 14, 1998. Can anyone help provide corrections to this list and/or help fill in nationalities that are not yet included? Egypt -- as-Saiqa France -- Le Commando (this was in the 1950's prior to the rebellion against DeGaul over giving up Algiers, and may have been changed in the shakeup after the mutiny.) Germany -- KSK (Kampfschwimmerkompanie; this was the West German name, is it still the same now?) Great Britain -- Royal Marine Commandos; SBS (Special Boat Section) Israel -- Flotilla 13 and also Unit 707 Italy -- COMSUBIN (Commando Subacqui ed Incursori) Netherlands -- Royal Netherlands Marine Corps (RNLMC); 7NL SBS North Korea -- Amphibious Light Infantry Brigades PLO -- Force 17 Russia -- Spetsnaz United States -- SEALS Thank you all very much, Brian Reddington-Wilde Goblintooth Enterprises redwilde@bdsbbs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:49:46 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <48b41eb5.34bdb18c@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-15 01:15:32 EST, you write: << All I could find in my small aviation library is a drawing in a Time-Life book. Sorry. Thanks for the 67jpg btw. >> Thanks- I've got the Time Life book.Glad the Toggle diagram came out! Thanks Again Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:17:50 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <199801150917.AA14956@egate2.citicorp.com> KarrArt wrote: > > Well, now I've gone and done it! I've cut material for a 1/48 HP 0/400.Please > humor me. I'm working from drawings by Colin Owers. They seem to be pretty > accurate but not very detailed.Other sources include C&C GB v23 n3- from > whence came the drawings; Aircraft Modelworld Feb 1988; 2 of the 4 page > Willis Nye drawings( not too bad at all- I wish I had the other 2 pages); and > bunch of photos scattered hither and yon in various books and mags. > Anybody out there in list land got any amazing 0/400 stuff lurking > about?.Especially ,as always, interior- the cockpit, bomb bay, engine cowl ? > the usual detail stuff. > Right now I've got enough to do the project but I'm afraid I'll miss some > little doo-dad of a drain pipe or other whiz-phiggot. > Oh yeah, a very basic question- were these darn things PC 10 over all? some > sources say yes some say the usual CDL on the under sides. J. M. Bruce says > it's doubtful if ANY plane saw combat in NIVO, so that's out. > Thanks in advance > Robert Well, the very few internal detail references available according to my database are: WW1 Aero No 108 RAF Yearbook 1977 Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft (partwork) No 137. The most concentrated reference work must be Handley Page Bombers of the First World War by Chaz Bowyer (two copies available at full price from Foyle's in the UK) but even this does not seem to have interior shots. Charles (Hart) can you confirm? Regards ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:29:08 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <19980115.043528.4222.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:20:07 -0500 Graham Nash writes: >WW1 Aero No 108 >RAF Yearbook 1977 >Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft (partwork) No 137. > >The most concentrated reference work must be >Handley Page Bombers of the First World War by Chaz Bowyer >(two copies available at full price from Foyle's in the UK) >but even this does not seem to have interior shots. Charles >(Hart) can you confirm? The only other I can offer is: Military Modelling, #32 Which, according to my db, has a color plate with interior. Not sure what I meant at the time, and it's buried somewhere, but I'll try to dig it out. Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:05:33 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: don't read, test Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980115170533.006ae5ec@philonline.com.ph> test ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:57:07 -0000 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <199801151152.LAA20365@beryl.sol.co.uk> Robert, you don't mention Chaz Bowyer's "HP Bombers of the 1st WW" so I don't know if you have this or not? If not then do get sight of a copy: it covers the history of the 0/100, 0/400 and V/1500 pretty comprehensively with stacks of photos, although interior shots are rare. There is a good close-up of the front lewis gunner demonstrating his weapon (?!), which lets you see into the pilot's office. 1/72 and 1/144 Colin Owers drawings of 0/400 are in the appendix although they are not as detailed as Datafile plans. Some excellent photos though - the one of the intrepid (and well endowed) Miss Sylvia Boyden wearing parachute harness over a tight woolen pullover must have been passed around a few smoking rooms in 1920! Somebody mentioned recently having found copies at 30+ pounds or dollars? I got mine in September from Hannants, remaindered at 6.95GBP. HTH Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:16:11 -0500 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Pricing for D-Va Message-ID: <34BDFE0B.49F7@fast.net> Patrick Padovan wrote: > > Dear Don: So, tell us the story? You can't just say, "Interesting story > in itself there. . . " and leave it at that, surely? What's the dirt? > Regards, Patrick > Well, it's not all that exciting really. The Albatros D-V was a highly anticipated kit from Proctor. Rumors swirled around for years as to if it was really going to be done. Then in 1990, I think, it was announced that Ralph Beck was doing a prototype and plans. Ralph is a really excellent designer, having previously done plans for a very authentic Curtiss Jenny that Protor then kitted a few years later. So Proctor goes thru all the gear up to produce this kit, Ralph takes the prototype all around the country ( even Demoed it at AERODROME 92) and the magazines put the D-V on the cover. Protor spends thousands in advertising. Then it gets a little hazy. With little or no warning, Ralphs lawyer sends a letter to Protor telling them he's withdrawhis copyright to the plans for the D-V AND the Jenny. I guess Protor was just producing kits under lisence and Beck retained the copyright. His lawyer had convinced him he was setting himself up for a massive liability suit if a Protor plane crashed and injured someone or something. Soooooo... A few weeks later Proctor pulls the plans and no more kits are shipped. It's all too confusing, but you can bet the winner was the lawyer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:18:37 -0500 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Pricing for D-Va Message-ID: <34BDFE9D.7C65@fast.net> Charles Hart wrote: > > >I might have a line on a PROCTOR Albatros D-Va new in the box. > > > >What was the retail price before they were discontinued, and what do you > >think a fair price would be for one today? > > > >For the uneducated this is a quarter scale No not 1/48th.... 3"-1'-0) > >model that Proctor sold for a few years before the designer got > >scared into withdrawing permisssion to use the plans on the advice of > >some Shilock lawyer. ( Interested story in itself there) > > Chech some old issues of World War One Aero. Proctor has been > advertising there for some time, though I can't directly recall seeing the > price on the Albatros in one of their ads. > > Charles > > hartc@spot.colorado.edu Thanks, but Proctor never posts prices in their adds. I DID find the original kit review which did post the price 650.00 ( I think it went up a bit a few months later) ANyway, it look like Ill snag it for less than that. Now all I need is for an ENYA VT-240 to fall off the back of a truck.... :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:16:51 +0100 From: Maciej Szymanski To: wwi Subject: Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar Message-ID: <34BDFE33.2D7ADD5F@ibch.poznan.pl> I'd like one too, Thanks, Maciej -- ----------------------- Maciej Szymanski Poznan, Poland mszyman@ibch.poznan.pl ----------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:34:18 EST From: Jim Alley To: wwi Subject: Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar Message-ID: <6235c8cd.34be024d@aol.com> >> Would anyone who's asked for a calandar and not received it let me know I'd like to have the 6-JPEG version, too. Jim Alley jimalley@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:36:32 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: New D.VII site Message-ID: <199801151236.AA19006@egate2.citicorp.com> Try this, found today. http://www.nettaxi.com/citizens/hvossers/d7home.htm The owner has done quite a good job (excepting the Platz myth) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:41:51 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <199801151241.AA19143@egate2.citicorp.com> Sandy Adam wrote: > > Robert, you don't mention Chaz Bowyer's "HP Bombers of the 1st WW" so I > don't know if you have this or not? > If not then do get sight of a copy: it covers the history of the 0/100, > 0/400 and V/1500 pretty comprehensively with stacks of photos, although > interior shots are rare. There is a good close-up of the front lewis gunner > demonstrating his weapon (?!), which lets you see into the pilot's office. > 1/72 and 1/144 Colin Owers drawings of 0/400 are in the appendix although > they are not as detailed as Datafile plans. > > Some excellent photos though - the one of the intrepid (and well endowed) > Miss Sylvia Boyden wearing parachute harness over a tight woolen pullover > must have been passed around a few smoking rooms in 1920! > > Somebody mentioned recently having found copies at 30+ pounds or dollars? I > got mine in September from Hannants, remaindered at 6.95GBP. > HTH > Sandy Remaindered at 6.95 is really excellent, but do they have more? Sandy'd description is spot on, so if you really must have the book NOW, try Foyles in the UK, priced about GBP30.00 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:51:36 -0500 From: bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: German pride Message-ID: <199801151251.HAA21913@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 09:36 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Dave Watts wrote: > Turning the corner back to airplane reality, but transitioning smoothly, >I was fortunate to have visited the "Museum of Astronautics", (sic), in >Krakow, Poland, while gathering information on the Roland D.VIb. It >actually took several trips to get in to see the airplanes. After a couple >bottles of Vodka, they let me get to the aircraft. Dave Neat story. I assume you must be fluent in Polish...or had an awful lot of vodka! Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:51:37 -0500 From: bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa Message-ID: <199801151251.HAA21919@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 05:53 AM 1/14/98 -0500, Graham Nash wrote: >Oops, I meant CREATED a WW1 Calendar. I won't send it on unless people >ask. Graham Add me to the list of calendar people. 6 jpgs and hopefully I can gifure out how to read it! TIA Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 05:44:32 -0800 From: "David Randall (SMS) (Volt Computer) (Exchange)" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: 1998 WW1 Calendar Message-ID: I would like to receive a copy of the calendar too... Dave Randall a-davidr@microsoft.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:46:33 -0600 From: "Charles Duckworth" To: Subject: Re: HP 0/400 PC10 vs Nivo Message-ID: <199801151450.IAA13693@mail.primary.net> In regards to the Nivo being introduced I looked in Bruce Robertson's book 'Bombing Colours 1914-1937' he advises "The Experimental Staff recommended it (Nivo) for all upper and side surfaces and in January 1918, a DH4 was finished in Nivo and sent to Farnborough for examination". He later writes...."The finish was deemed proven in June 1918. From mid-1918 it was firmly established that all night flying machines should in the future be in Nivo and day flying in khaki. Nivo became the styling for RAF night bombers until 1937." In Bowyer's book on page 57 he shows 0/400 C9636 as the first HP-built production 0/400 delivered to Hendon on April 22, 1918. Given the above sources I would assume that initial batches (B8802-8813, C3487-3498 and C9636-9785) were finished in PC-10 and those built after mid-1918 were in Nivo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:24 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: Bowyers HP 0/400 Book Message-ID: <199801151451.AA23722@egate2.citicorp.com> Price update. I popped into Foyle's and the price is actually GBP24.95. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:03:26 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: Syndicate Required to buy rarish Harleyford books... Message-ID: <199801151503.AA24664@egate2.citicorp.com> There may, repeat, may be a chance to get hold of the following books, on Monday/Tues next week: Sopwith-the Man and his Aircraft (Bags mine) Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War Fighter Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War Marine Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War The books are available at GBP25 (USD41) each, or GBP90 for all 4 (equivalent to USD37 individually). I should get 2nd refusal on the books. Condition is said to be good, but dustcovers are tatty. If you would like one or more of these books contact me off-list, on a first come, first served basis. If we are successful, you can pay me in US$ to save FX costs, as I have some purchases I want to make in the U.S. Happy modelling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:18:15 -0800 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: WW1 1998 Calendar Message-ID: <199801151518.AA25617@egate2.citicorp.com> If David Randall reads this, your Calendar request 'bounced'. Could you send a suitable e-mail address please? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 10:30:17 EST From: Brian Nicklas To: Subject: Info on Pegasus Alb. W4 Message-ID: <199801151533.KAA22361@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Does anyone have word/review of the Pegasus 1/72 Albatros W4 floatplane? PS - Tom Eisenhour stopped by for lunch yesterday, he was in Washington DC for a meeting. He passes greetings to the list. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:17:54 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: >KarrArt wrote: >> >> Well, now I've gone and done it! I've cut material for a 1/48 HP >>0/400.Please >> humor me. I'm working from drawings by Colin Owers. They seem to be pretty >> accurate but not very detailed.Other sources include C&C GB v23 n3- from >> whence came the drawings; Aircraft Modelworld Feb 1988; 2 of the 4 page >> Willis Nye drawings( not too bad at all- I wish I had the other 2 >>pages); and >> bunch of photos scattered hither and yon in various books and mags. >> Anybody out there in list land got any amazing 0/400 stuff lurking >> about?.Especially ,as always, interior- the cockpit, bomb bay, engine cowl ? >> the usual detail stuff. >> Right now I've got enough to do the project but I'm afraid I'll miss some >> little doo-dad of a drain pipe or other whiz-phiggot. >> Oh yeah, a very basic question- were these darn things PC 10 over all? some >> sources say yes some say the usual CDL on the under sides. J. M. Bruce says >> it's doubtful if ANY plane saw combat in NIVO, so that's out. >> Thanks in advance >> Robert > >Well, the very few internal detail references available according to my >database >are: > >WW1 Aero No 108 >RAF Yearbook 1977 >Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft (partwork) No 137. > >The most concentrated reference work must be >Handley Page Bombers of the First World War by Chaz Bowyer >(two copies available at full price from Foyle's in the UK) >but even this does not seem to have interior shots. Charles >(Hart) can you confirm? > >Regards Sandy has confirmed photographic coverage in the Boyer book. I can only add that this is an excellent book, though GBP 24.95 is a steep price. This is the best single reference I have seen on HP bomber a/c. Robert, I do have WW I Aero #108 if you need copies. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:33:52 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi Subject: Re: Pricing for D-Va Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980115113352.007de930@192.168.0.5> At 07:20 AM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Patrick Padovan wrote: >> >> Dear Don: So, tell us the story? You can't just say, "Interesting story >> in itself there. . . " and leave it at that, surely? What's the dirt? >> Regards, Patrick >> > >Well, it's not all that exciting really. The Albatros D-V was a highly >anticipated kit from Proctor. Rumors swirled around for years as to if >it was really going to be done. Then in 1990, I think, it was announced >that Ralph Beck was doing a prototype and plans. Ralph is a really >excellent designer, having previously done plans for a very authentic >Curtiss Jenny that Protor then kitted a few years later. > >So Proctor goes thru all the gear up to produce this kit, Ralph takes >the prototype all around the country ( even Demoed it at AERODROME 92) >and the magazines put the D-V on the cover. Protor spends thousands in >advertising. >Then it gets a little hazy. With little or no warning, Ralphs lawyer >sends a letter to Protor telling them he's withdrawhis copyright to the >plans for the D-V AND the Jenny. I guess Protor was just producing kits >under lisence and Beck retained the copyright. >His lawyer had convinced him he was setting himself up for a massive >liability suit if a Protor plane crashed and injured someone or >something. Soooooo... A few weeks later Proctor pulls the plans and no >more kits are shipped. >It's all too confusing, but you can bet the winner was the lawyer. > > I may be off base, but I had heard that during and after Aerodrome 92, guys were telling Ralph, "Hey, these plans are good enough for me to build a 3/4 scale replica!", and this may have added to his anxiety, fueled by his lawyer, to stop things. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:28:12 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi Subject: Re: German pride Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980115112812.007df570@192.168.0.5> At 07:52 AM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:36 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Dave Watts wrote: > >> Turning the corner back to airplane reality, but transitioning smoothly, >>I was fortunate to have visited the "Museum of Astronautics", (sic), in >>Krakow, Poland, while gathering information on the Roland D.VIb. It >>actually took several trips to get in to see the airplanes. After a couple >>bottles of Vodka, they let me get to the aircraft. >Dave > Neat story. I assume you must be fluent in Polish...or had an awful >lot of vodka! >Mike Muth > > > >Thanks, I had my German buddy with me, who speaks a little Polish, but can drink a lot of Vodka. He played it out, that he also did'nt like the Berlin Museum guys, and went from there, although he was German, after the 2nd bottle, they thought he looked and acted more like a Pole. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:57:44 -0800 From: "David Randall (SMS) (Volt Computer) (Exchange)" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: WW1 1998 Calendar Message-ID: You can also try dmr@halcyon.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Graham Nash [SMTP:graham.nash@citicorp.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:21 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: WW1 1998 Calendar > > If David Randall reads this, your Calendar request 'bounced'. > > Could you send a suitable e-mail address please? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:28:23 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: <48b4b2b9.34be4739@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-15 11:17:00 EST, you write: << Robert, I do have WW I Aero #108 if you need copies. Charles >> Yes- thanks Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:28:22 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Handley-Page 0/400 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-15 05:37:35 EST, you write: << The only other I can offer is: Military Modelling, #32 Which, according to my db, has a color plate with interior. Not sure what I meant at the time, and it's buried somewhere, but I'll try to dig it out. Matt Bittner >> Thanks! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:55:23 -0800 (PST) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: German pride Message-ID: Dear Dave: Well, a lot has happened since 1945. I would just like to point out, however, in fairness to myself, that the way in which you snipped my message changed the context. I know this wasn't your intent, but it now looks as if I am saying that I consider it "rational and sensible" that the swastika be outlawed, period. Of course, in the original message, I was refering to the banning of Fascist symbols and regalia (including the swastika) by the military powers of occupation. This was part of their "denazification" (yes, that's what it was called!) process, and that is the context in which I refered to the banning of the swastika as "rational and sensible." I just want to clarify this point, before I get a hundred messages calling upon me to justify the banning of this ancient and venerable symbol from modern airplane model kits, which I most emphatically do NOT support. Again, I know that it was not your intent to distort my meaning. Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Dave Watts wrote: > Patrick writes: > >Dear Dave: The original order banning the display of the swastika "and > >other Fascist symbols (!)" dates back to the period of occupation in the > >immediate postwar period, in both Germany and Japan, as well as Italy. > >It is quite rational and sensible that displaying the symbols of these > >recently defeated regimes would be outlawed. > >Patrick Padovan > > > > Couple of last comments, on one of my earlier trips to Germany in 1983, > Commemorating 50 years of Hitler coming to power. Book stores prominently > displayed books with printed Nazi flag covers, in the store windows, with > full size Nazi flag posters showcasing the books. So they must have > freedom of press that allows it. > Another trip some years after, I saw a T-shirt in a music store that had > on the front "Hitler, The World Tour", then on the back it had cities, and > countries listed with dates, (as they were conquered), Warsaw, Paris, etc., > then it listed cities such as London, Moscow, etc. and said cancelled, > cancelled, etc. Some may say funny, others not funny. I was just > surprised to see it. > Last question/observation on this subject, while talking to one of my > German fellow enthusiasts, I asked him, since I am poor at the German > language, Would a redhead in German be a "rotkauf" (sic), and he replied, > "Yes". Then I asked what do you call a brunet? He said, "Vas is das > "brunet"? I said, "You know like my hair, or no, more like your hair.", > his hair being medium to dark brunet. He said, "My hair?, It's dark > blonde!" I said, That's B.S.!", but he contended he was not kidding. > Sorry to ask, but can anyone confirm this? > Turning the corner back to airplane reality, but transitioning smoothly, > I was fortunate to have visited the "Museum of Astronautics", (sic), in > Krakow, Poland, while gathering information on the Roland D.VIb. It > actually took several trips to get in to see the airplanes. After a couple > bottles of Vodka, they let me get to the aircraft. I was a bit taken back > when I saw the fuselage of the Roland, stacked on top of a Albatros B.II, > another bottle of Vodka traded hands, and a fork lift from down the way, > came in and lifted it off, and set it on the floor. I got some super good > documentation, quite a bit different from Kiger's or Abbott's plans. A > good thing to, they restored the aircraft already, and used Kiger's plans > as a guide! The plane looks good though. When talking to the Berlin > Museum people, they have said, "The Roland will be here, in Berlin, in 3 > months.", that was 10 years ago, and they still don't have it. When I > talked to the folks at the Krakow museum they said, "You know what they did > to us in the var (war), we will make these to fire before they (Germany) > gets them!" I must think that's the Vodka talking, and I know Berlin has > gotten some aircraft back already, but it made me realize, that they have > not, and will not, forget W.W.II. I know with the new unified Europe, they > (Germany) is negotiating with many countries, to get back, and give back, > "war booty". That'll take about a 100 years to settle, and by then they'll > have had another war, (I hope not). > Last thing, (it pertains to WWI), I looked extensively into doing family > name searches in Germany, for example, to contact descendants of Fokker > factory test pilots, to see if they may have photos, albums, etc. from that > period, not so much to buy, just to unearth and diffuse the information. > Things are starting to tighten up in the U.S. concerning public access to > private information, well, it's nothing like as tight as it is in Germany, > concerning privacy rights. Unfortunately there is no chance to do > searches. As a matter of fact, when I was in the Deutches museum in April, > I had brought large laser copies of photos from a Fokker test pilot's > album. I offered them for free, as a goodwill gesture, knowing they > couldn't already have copies of them. He was thankful, and selected only a > few, and not the ones I thought he would've selected, I asked why he didn't > take all, he said with the new privacy laws passed, he could not accept > photos with the main subject being pilots or other people, only photos with > aircraft by themselves. This new law is going to put a crimp in material > you will be able to give or get at German museums. Hopefully they'll > modify the law, but I doubt it. It probably gets back to the fear of Nazi > skeletons in the closet. > Dave > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:56:48 -0500 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Pricing for D-Va Message-ID: <34BE4DE0.4FFD@fast.net> Dave Watts wrote: > >His lawyer had convinced him he was setting himself up for a massive > >liability suit if a Protor plane crashed and injured someone or > >something. Soooooo... A few weeks later Proctor pulls the plans and no > >more kits are shipped. > >It's all too confusing, but you can bet the winner was the lawyer. > > > > > I may be off base, but I had heard that during and after Aerodrome 92, > guys were telling Ralph, "Hey, these plans are good enough for me to build > a 3/4 scale replica!", and this may have added to his anxiety, fueled by > his lawyer, to stop things. > Dave It's possible.. I was at Aerodrome 92 and saw Ralph and the D-V, but never heard anyone say such a thing. Actually the plans and planes are nice, but they are not 100% true scale. I've done the N-28 in 1/4scale and there are numerous deviations from scale construction (mostly internal stuff to accomodate model disassembly, or fuel tanks, engines and radio gear. If somebody wanted to really do a full size or 3/4 scale replica, WW1 aero has scores of sources of plans from various sources. I do hope Proctor just modifies it a bit here and there enough to void any possibilty of Ralph Beck's lawyer squealing, and reissues the D-V and the Jenny. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 848 *********************