WWI Digest 846

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: New Products
	by REwing <REwing@aol.com>
  2) Re: New Products
	by Kevin Wenker <kwenker@interaccess.com>
  3) Re: New Products
	by KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
  4) Re: Double Acting Rotary
	by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
  5) Re: New Products
	by Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
  6) Re: New Products
	by "Chris Banyai-Riepl" <herper@willapabay.org>
  7) 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
	by Bob Pearson <bpearson@kaien.com>
  8) Re: New Products
	by "Sandy Adam" <cbbs@almac.co.uk>
  9) (slightly off-topic): Tiger Moth 
	by Matt Bacon <mattb@london.virgin.net>
 10) Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
	by Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
 11) Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
	by Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
 12) Rumpler C.III
	by mbittner@juno.com
 13) Re: New Products
	by John & Allison Cyganowski <Janah@worldnet.att.net>
 14) Re: Rumpler C.III
	by Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
 15) 
	by fedders <pfed@saladin.wustl.edu>
 16) Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
	by Carlos Valdes <carlos.valdes@conted.gatech.edu>
 17) wise owl e-mail
	by Franco Poloni <frank@lo.itline.it>
 18) Re: (slightly off-topic): Tiger Moth
	by Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
 19) Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
	by Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
 20) Re: New Products
	by Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
 21) Re: (slightly off-topic): Tiger Moth
	by vedrank@pro1.sjever.fsb.hr (Vedran Kalamiza)
 22) Jan/Feb98 Calendar
	by Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
 23) Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar
	by djones@iex.com (Doug Jones)
 24) Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar
	by Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
 25) Re: Double Acting Rotary
	by rojo1@concentric.net
 26) Re: 
	by "Sandy Adam" <cbbs@almac.co.uk>
 27) 1998 WW1 Calendar
	by Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
 28) RE: 1998 WW1 Calendar
	by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
 29) Re: 1998 WW1 Calendar
	by michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT)
 30) Re: 1998 WW1 Calendar
	by KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
 31) Re: Italian/Austrian markings - was Smer Ansaldo
	by Matthew Zivich <mzivich@tardis.svsu.edu>
 32) Re: Italian/Austrian  markings - was Smer Ansaldo
	by Patrick Padovan <ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us>
 33) Re: New Products
	by Patrick Padovan <ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us>
 34) Re: Italian/Austrian markings - was Smer Ansaldo
	by Patrick Padovan <ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:00:13 EST
From: REwing <REwing@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <5939922.34bc627f@aol.com>



<So tell me, hwere are the bullet entrance and exit wounds?   ;-)
 
 Shane >

Unfortunately, we all know now that MvR was not shot down.  He had engine
trouble and crash landed near the Aussie gun crew.  MvR walked away from the
crash, that is until the Canadians got to him.  The entry wounds were in the
chest and one in the head.

How's that for a revisionist conspiracy "theory".


-Rick- (...the troublemaker) ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:01:22 -0600
From: Kevin Wenker <kwenker@interaccess.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <34BC62C2.4669B306@interaccess.com>

I believe he and Elvis share an apartment in Grand Rapids.

REwing wrote:

> <So tell me, hwere are the bullet entrance and exit wounds?   ;-)
>
>  Shane >
>
> Unfortunately, we all know now that MvR was not shot down.  He had
> engine
> trouble and crash landed near the Aussie gun crew.  MvR walked away
> from the
> crash, that is until the Canadians got to him.  The entry wounds were
> in the
> chest and one in the head.
>
> How's that for a revisionist conspiracy "theory".
>
> -Rick- (...the troublemaker) ;^)




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:13:47 EST
From: KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <16088964.34bc65ad@aol.com>

In a message dated 98-01-14 02:08:41 EST, you write:

<< I believe he and Elvis share an apartment in Grand Rapids. >>
 Hitler and Jim Morrison are the live-in help.
Robert

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:29:17 -0800
From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Double Acting Rotary
Message-ID: <199801140729.AA05397@ednet1.orednet.org>



James Gibbons writes:
>
>Is this the same engine used on the SS DIII (or D IV I can't remember) and 
>also called a "contra rotary engine".  If it is my possibly erroneous 
>understanding is that it was an engine where the cylinders rotated one 
>direction at about 800 RPM (going entirely by memory here) and the camshaft 
>rotated the other direction at the same speed (as opposed to being fixed as 
>in a standard rotary).  As I remeber reading somewhere this setup gave more 
>power and was better at driving a four bladed prop than the standard 
>rotaries.  I wouldn't be surprised if the DR-I (V 7/1) fitted with this 
>engine also carried a four-bladed prop during the trials.

That makes sense - and your surmise is, indeed, correct, as the
photos of the V.7/I do display a four bladed prop. It also,
incidently, displays a higher than normal undercarriage (presumably
to provide adequate clearance for the prop) and _no_ airfoil
"wing" on the undercarriage (why, I know not.)

Still, my mind boggles at trying to devise the mechanics of
a rotary engine which rotates counterclockwise while the
crankshaft and propellor goes clockwise.  That must have
been _some_ Rube Goldberg contraption!

'Tis no wonder, I suppose, that the Triplanes book, in commenting
upon the V.7/I, remarks that, "(t)he engine was a long ways from
being ready for service and the V7/I was eliminated (from the
1918 fighter competition)."

Cheers and all,



--
                 Bill Shatzer  - bshatzer@orednet.org

"This is the West, sir.  When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:43:31 -0600
From: Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <34BC6CA3.1ECA@bellsouth.net>

REwing wrote:
> 
> <So tell me, hwere are the bullet entrance and exit wounds?   ;-)
> 
>  Shane >
> 
> Unfortunately, we all know now that MvR was not shot down.  He had engine
> trouble and crash landed near the Aussie gun crew.  MvR walked away from the
> crash, that is until the Canadians got to him.  The entry wounds were in the
> chest and one in the head.
> 
> How's that for a revisionist conspiracy "theory".
> 
> -Rick- (...the troublemaker) ;^)

Which shot came from the grassy knoll?

Ernest

another troublemaker!



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:24:04 -0800
From: "Chris Banyai-Riepl" <herper@willapabay.org>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <01bd20c5$c6298d60$9f4ffbce@chrisban>


>> <So tell me, hwere are the bullet entrance and exit wounds?   ;-)
>>
>>  Shane >
>>
>> Unfortunately, we all know now that MvR was not shot down.  He had engine
>> trouble and crash landed near the Aussie gun crew.  MvR walked away from
the
>> crash, that is until the Canadians got to him.  The entry wounds were in
the
>> chest and one in the head.
>>
>> How's that for a revisionist conspiracy "theory".
>>
>> -Rick- (...the troublemaker) ;^)
>
>Which shot came from the grassy knoll?
>
>Ernest
>
>another troublemaker!
>

>From what I understand, the chest wound was from the book depository, while
the head wound was from the grassy knoll, shot by the one-armed man.  These
wounds did not actually kill him, however, as the body taken in for autopsy
was not the same one flying the Triplane.

Chris

troublemaker #3


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:03:46 -0800
From: Bob Pearson <bpearson@kaien.com>
To: WW1 Mailing list <wwi>
Subject: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
Message-ID: <09034675545352@KAIEN.COM>


Greetings All,

Well the 160hp Mercedes turned out so well I had to do the 180hp D.IIIa, so
anyone who wants this as well let me know.  . . . Hmmm, perhaps an engine
profile page would be in order . . . . Al?

Regards,
        Bob Pearson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:41:03 -0000
From: "Sandy Adam" <cbbs@almac.co.uk>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <199801140945.JAA07696@beryl.sol.co.uk>


> << I believe he and Elvis share an apartment in Grand Rapids. >>
>  Hitler and Jim Morrison are the live-in help.
> Robert

"Ain't nuthin' but a Hun dog", "Heartwound hotel" and "Little (A Roy) Brown
Jug" can be heard at all hours.
Sandy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:08:07 +0000
From: Matt Bacon <mattb@london.virgin.net>
To: wwi
Subject: (slightly off-topic): Tiger Moth 
Message-ID: <34BC8E87.7109E494@london.virgin.net>

Hi, folks -- I've got to write a feature on aviation milestones in the
Uk (Stringfellow's powered aircraft, Cayley's first heavier-than-air
person-carrying flight, Alcock and Brown, Whittle and the jet engine) I
thought it would be good to put some material in about the Tiger Moth,
which IIRC was the first aircraft in the UK designed specifically to
bring flying to the general public. (To put us vaguely on-topic, I seem
to recall that it was designed because the market immediately after WW1
was flooded with ex-military aircraft, but their performance was beyond
the capacity of many pilots to handle, and that without the care and
maintenance of an Air Force-level of ground crew and service schedules,
they became dangerous relatively quickly. Bottom line: by the 1920s,
they were no longer a solution.)

Anwyay, it's very hard to find references, surprisingly. Can anyone
point me in the direction of good material? Alternitively, does anyone
who has the Putnam's "de Havilland" book fancy copying the relevant
section for me? (it's an expensive book to buy for just the one
aircraft, and though I'd want the Mosquito bit as well, for personal
entertainment, I can't easily justify it)

Thanks for your consideration...

best,
M.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Bacon    | "This room is illuminated by eclectic light...
Deputy Editor |  sometimes it's waves and sometimes it's particles"
Virgin Net    |  		-Ben Moor, "Twelve" July-Aug 1997
---I don't speak for Richard Branson and he doesn't speak for me---

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:48:18 -0800
From: Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
Message-ID: <199801141048.AA08592@egate2.citicorp.com>

Bob Pearson wrote:
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
> Well the 160hp Mercedes turned out so well I had to do the 180hp D.IIIa, so
> anyone who wants this as well let me know.  . . . Hmmm, perhaps an engine
> profile page would be in order . . . . Al?
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Pearson

In the absence on an engine page, could I have both profiles please?

Plus, as a bit of fun, I've enclosed a WW1 calender for Jan & Feb 1998,
using some images from the net, hopefully non-copy right.  Let me know
if anyone wants them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:50:31 -0800
From: Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
Message-ID: <199801141050.AA08622@egate2.citicorp.com>

Oops, I meant CREATED a WW1 Calendar.  I won't send it on unless people
ask.

> Bob Pearson wrote:
> >
> > Greetings All,
> >
> > Well the 160hp Mercedes turned out so well I had to do the 180hp D.IIIa, so
> > anyone who wants this as well let me know.  . . . Hmmm, perhaps an engine
> > profile page would be in order . . . . Al?
> >
> > Regards,
> >         Bob Pearson
> 
> In the absence on an engine page, could I have both profiles please?
> 
> Plus, as a bit of fun, I've enclosed a WW1 calender for Jan & Feb 1998,
> using some images from the net, hopefully non-copy right.  Let me know
> if anyone wants them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:01:25 -0600
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Rumpler C.III
Message-ID: <19980114.050201.4654.1.mbittner@juno.com>

Does anybody have any info on the Rumpler C.III?  I searched through my
database to find I have nothing on the type.  Yes, I do have stuff on the
C.IV, but am unsure of all the differences.  TIA!


Matt Bittner

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:01:38 -0500
From: John & Allison Cyganowski <Janah@worldnet.att.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <34BC9B12.47FE@worldnet.att.net>

Shane Weier wrote:
> 
> Ernest,
> 
> > and 1 DEAD Richtoffen.
> 
> Ahah !   A *good* Richtoffen.
> 
> So tell me, hwere are the bullet entrance and exit wounds?   ;-)
> 
> Shane


In this case you can be sure the wound will be right through Ernest's
wallet! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:25:44 -0800
From: Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Rumpler C.III
Message-ID: <199801141225.AA10676@egate2.citicorp.com>

mbittner@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Does anybody have any info on the Rumpler C.III?  I searched through my
> database to find I have nothing on the type.  Yes, I do have stuff on the
> C.IV, but am unsure of all the differences.  TIA!
> 
> Matt Bittner

Next to nothing I'm afraid.


Die Entwicklung der Flugzeug 1914-1918			J.F.Lehmanns Verlag	Heinz
J.Nowarra
German Aircraft of the First World War			Putnam & Co		Thetford & Gray
Over the Front Vol 8 No 3	
Reconnaissance and Bomber Aircraft of the First World War Harleyford	
W.Lamberton
Rumpler C.III/IV					Albatros Productions	Peter M.Grosz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:22:33 -0600 (CST)
From: fedders <pfed@saladin.wustl.edu>
To: models <wwi>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.980114082118.19271A-100000@saladin.wustl.edu>


It appears that I will ve visiting Italy (Rome and north) in May.  Are 
there any museums with WWI aircraft that are worth seeing??

thank you

pfed

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:57:16 -0500
From: Carlos Valdes <carlos.valdes@conted.gatech.edu>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980114145716.006a4608@conted.swann.gatech.edu>


>Oops, I meant CREATED a WW1 Calendar.  I won't send it on unless people
>ask.

        I'd like one. Thanks.
                               Carlos


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:05:54 -0100
From: Franco Poloni <frank@lo.itline.it>
To: wwi
Subject: wise owl e-mail
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980114170554.0067d264@lo.itline.it>

Hi all
can somebody give me the e-mail address of Wise Owl Worldwide Publications?
Thanks
       Franco 


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:18:17 -0600
From: Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: (slightly off-topic): Tiger Moth
Message-ID: <34BCD739.762@bellsouth.net>

> 
> Anwyay, it's very hard to find references, surprisingly. Can anyone
> point me in the direction of good material? Alternitively, does anyone
> who has the Putnam's "de Havilland" book fancy copying the relevant
> section for me? (it's an expensive book to buy for just the one
> aircraft, and though I'd want the Mosquito bit as well, for personal
> entertainment, I can't easily justify it)
> 
> Thanks for your consideration...
> 
> best,
> M.
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Matt Bacon    | "This room is illuminated by eclectic light...
> Deputy Editor |  sometimes it's waves and sometimes it's particles"
> Virgin Net    |                 -Ben Moor, "Twelve" July-Aug 1997
> ---I don't speak for Richard Branson and he doesn't speak for me--


Matt,
I'll see if I can find something.

Ernest

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:19:49 -0600
From: Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa
Message-ID: <34BCD795.77AB@bellsouth.net>

Graham Nash wrote:
> 
> Oops, I meant CREATED a WW1 Calendar.  I won't send it on unless people
> ask.
> 
> > Bob Pearson wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings All,
> > >
> > > Well the 160hp Mercedes turned out so well I had to do the 180hp D.IIIa, so
> > > anyone who wants this as well let me know.  . . . Hmmm, perhaps an engine
> > > profile page would be in order . . . . Al?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >         Bob Pearson
> >
> > In the absence on an engine page, could I have both profiles please?
> >
> > Plus, as a bit of fun, I've enclosed a WW1 calender for Jan & Feb 1998,
> > using some images from the net, hopefully non-copy right.  Let me know
> > if anyone wants them.

Hey, I'll take one. TIA

Ernest

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:21:37 -0600
From: Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <34BCD801.1A13@bellsouth.net>

John & Allison Cyganowski wrote:
> 
> Shane Weier wrote:
> >
> > Ernest,
> >
> > > and 1 DEAD Richtoffen.
> >
> > Ahah !   A *good* Richtoffen.
> >
> > So tell me, hwere are the bullet entrance and exit wounds?   ;-)
> >
> > Shane
> 
> In this case you can be sure the wound will be right through Ernest's
> wallet! :-)

C'mon, $15.95 for 6 resin figures tis a mere scratch!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:47:07 +0100
From: vedrank@pro1.sjever.fsb.hr (Vedran Kalamiza)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: (slightly off-topic): Tiger Moth
Message-ID: <199801141547.QAA01795@pro7.sjever.fsb.hr>

I believe there is a german booklet called Flugzeug F-40:Tiger Moth.
Sorry,I don`t have the adress of the publisher at my uni so if You can wait 
untill monday I`ll mail it to You.

Vedran Kalamiza
vedrank@sjever.fsb.hr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:43:53 -0800
From: Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Jan/Feb98 Calendar
Message-ID: <199801141543.AA18803@egate2.citicorp.com>

Would anyone who's asked for a calandar and not received it let me know,
as I've been guilty of posting it to the list instead of the sender.

[Sound of hand smacking wrist]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:53:45 -0600 (CST)
From: djones@iex.com (Doug Jones)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar
Message-ID: <9801141553.AA22646@deimos.tx.iex.com>

I would like one!

Thanks,
Doug

-- 
-------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of      |   Douglas R. Jones
 both Time and Space'    |   IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin      |   (972)301-1307
                         |   djones@iex.com
-------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:12:31 -0600
From: Ernest Thomas <ethomas6@bellsouth.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Jan/Feb98 Calendar
Message-ID: <34BCE3EF.7D7@bellsouth.net>

Graham Nash wrote:
> 
> Would anyone who's asked for a calandar and not received it let me know,
> as I've been guilty of posting it to the list instead of the sender.
> 
> [Sound of hand smacking wrist]

Still Waiting

Ernest
ethomas6@bellsouth.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:23:12 +0000
From: rojo1@concentric.net
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Double Acting Rotary
Message-ID: <199801141629.LAA18089@marconi.concentric.net>

 bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) writes:


> Still, my mind boggles at trying to devise the mechanics of
> a rotary engine which rotates counterclockwise while the
> crankshaft and propellor goes clockwise.  That must have
> been _some_ Rube Goldberg contraption!
> 
Somewhat more complex, yes, but not Rube Goldberg and probably no 
more so than a watercooled Mercedes or geared Hisso.  Bevel gears on 
the crankshaft and the rotary crankcase meshed with pinions on  
a stationary transmission housing.  This let the cylinders and 
crankshaft/propellor rotate in different directions at 900 rpm.  This 
gave an effective 1800 rpm for power production while letting the 
prop turn at a slower and much more efficient 900 rpm.  Doubtless the 
four-blade prop was meant to exploit this advantage by providing a 
larger thrust-producing propellor area while keeping the tip speeds 
low for efficiency (and ground handling).  The lower 900-rpm  
rotational speed of the block also produced lower drag, and the 
counterbalancing effect of the counter-rotating masses produced less 
severe gyroscopic effects.  The design might well put less strain on 
the connecting rods and pistons too.
Rob
<rojo1@concentric.net>
Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:32:07 -0000
From: "Sandy Adam" <cbbs@almac.co.uk>
To: <wwi>
Subject: Re: 
Message-ID: <199801141704.RAA23340@beryl.sol.co.uk>


> It appears that I will ve visiting Italy (Rome and north) in May.  Are 
> there any museums with WWI aircraft that are worth seeing??
> thank you
> pfed

I'm sure Franco is your best guide Peter, but I certainly enjoyed my visit
to the Vittoriale on NW shores of Lake Garda last year, to see D'Annunzio's
amazing private estate - complete with Vienna-raid SVA twin seater, frigate
and motor torpedo boat. Lots of superb photo prints on walls. (Any family
members would enjoy this visit too.)
My one disappointment was the lack of any sort of publication I could buy
there with reproductions of the pictures. Only a few postcards on sale.
Sandy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:31:26 -0800
From: Graham Nash <graham.nash@citicorp.com>
To: wwi
Subject: 1998 WW1 Calendar
Message-ID: <199801141731.AA23821@egate2.citicorp.com>

Due to unprecdented demand (well actually Matthew Bittner said 'Why
not?') the 1998 calendar is available upon request.

I have used profiles or pictures provided by other list members,
although I have not sought their express permission.  Hopefully no-one
will mind, but please accept my apologies straight away.  It is not my
intention to plagarise their excellent work or breach their copyright.
If there are any problems, I will happily remove the offending item.

It will be available as a series of six jpgs or a 1.1meg zip file. Let
me know which you would like.

Alan, would you like a copy for the site, copyright allowing?

Rgds

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:52:55 -0600
From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" <panz-meador@vsti.com>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: RE: 1998 WW1 Calendar
Message-ID: <01BD20E2.F61968C0.panz-meador@vsti.com>

i would like a copy of the ZIP file.

thanks,

phillip anz-meador
panz-meador@vsti.com

-----Original Message-----
From:	Graham Nash [SMTP:graham.nash@citicorp.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:35 AM
To:	Multiple recipients of list
Subject:	1998 WW1 Calendar

Due to unprecdented demand (well actually Matthew Bittner said 'Why
not?') the 1998 calendar is available upon request.

I have used profiles or pictures provided by other list members,
although I have not sought their express permission.  Hopefully no-one
will mind, but please accept my apologies straight away.  It is not my
intention to plagarise their excellent work or breach their copyright.
If there are any problems, I will happily remove the offending item.

It will be available as a series of six jpgs or a 1.1meg zip file. Let
me know which you would like.

Alan, would you like a copy for the site, copyright allowing?

Rgds


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:18:29 GMT
From: michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: 1998 WW1 Calendar
Message-ID: <34bf00cb.5150632@relay.ping.be>

On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:34:23 -0500, Graham Nash
<graham.nash@citicorp.com> wrote:

>Due to unprecdented demand (well actually Matthew Bittner said 'Why
>not?') the 1998 calendar is available upon request.
>
 --- snip ---
>
>It will be available as a series of six jpgs or a 1.1meg zip file. Let
>me know which you would like.
>
That's interesting. If only someone was kind enough to put it on a FTP
site, it would be easy to download it. I'm afraid that the the ZIP file
is too big to be allowed by my ISP.
Regards.
=20
--
Michel Lefort <ipms.belgium@ping.be> - Braine-l'Alleud, Belgium
IPMS Belgium Treasurer & Foreign Liaison Officer (member F072)
MAFVA member #6708
http://www.ping.be/ipms
Plastic Modelling is holding History in your Hand

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:17:13 EST
From: KarrArt <KarrArt@aol.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: 1998 WW1 Calendar
Message-ID: <10010cbc.34bd012c@aol.com>

Sure 'nuff- I'll take a calendar- 6 jpgs sounds good!
Robert

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:39:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Matthew Zivich <mzivich@tardis.svsu.edu>
To: wwi
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Italian/Austrian markings - was Smer Ansaldo
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.980114130335.13880A-100000@tardis.svsu.edu>



On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Sandy Adam wrote:

> Or am I  reading WAY too much into this, and talking complete drivel?
> >                                                       Regards, Patrick  
> 
> Yes Patrick I think you are.
> 
> There are a few similarities on some aircraft, which is as far as it goes.
> But there are also many dissimilarities.
> Some Italian aircraft had one under-wing tip red and the other green
> instead of applying roundels. Thus the whole undersurface became
> effectively a tricolore (but with CDL rather than white.)
> Some Austrian aircraft applied red/white/red stripes on upper- and
> lower-wing tips so you had in effect four separate flags at the extremity
> of each wing. Not one big flag.
> Also  these were applied in addition to national markings, whereas the
> Italian underwing colours were in place of them.
> Its worth remembering that several French and British aircraft applied
> red/white/blue stripes to upper and/or lower elevators. Nungesser of course
> applied them across the wings too.
> 
> As for the markings being applied inboard of the elevators, this is hardly
> peculiar to the Austro-Italian front as it was standard practice on a great
> number of British aircraft, most commonly on SEs. Look at McCudden's plane
> or the "Zanzibar" FE2b. Come to think of it, it was also standard practice
> on a great number of American aircraft too. I don't think too many Jennies
> flew combat missions over the Piave, but you may be able to correct me on
> that.
> Also plenty of Italian (and Austrian) aircraft did cover elevators with
> national markings.
> 
> As for the sponged/speckled camouflage, out of all the variety of colour
> schemes applied by the Austrians and Italians two have a slight degree of
> similarity - but so many do not. And with other types of speckled camoulage
> on each side which the other did not use. (Autumn Leaf etc). Also other
> nationalities used speckles (Halberstadt Cl.II).
> 
> So the stripes are not the same, the positioning is commonplace and the
> camouflage is not that similar either. No on a matching scale of 1 to 100,
> I'd say we are in the decimal point area: on the talking drivel scale
> though.....
> Sandy
> 
O.K. I'm convinced, I guess.  I am left with this summary of sorts.  I am 
aware of underwing national colors near the outer edges of lower & upper 
wings on the Ansaldo SVA-5 and perhaps one or two others I can't name. I 
am aware that the Its. immediate adversaries, the A/H's used a similar 
marking in similar positions on the wings of certain aircraft that too I 
cannot identify at this time.  I understand that no other 
adversaries used aforementioned markings that seem to be totally unique 
to the Ital. & Aus-Hun. aircrafts regardless of amounts involved.  Large 
numbers of other markings, etc. by either side do not negate the lone 
occurances that appear no where else at that time.

The same is true of the splotched camouflage according to my limited to 
be sure, observations.  The Halb. had a stippled pattern on the fuselage 
that lost distinction beyond a short distance because of the scale of the 
marks.  The splotched camouflage maintained distinction at a greater 
distance and was shared by the Ital. & A/H's on the wings of the Caproni 
bombers & SVA aircraft and on greater parts of the Alb. Oeffag's 
including but not restricted to the wings. (Both sides used CDL on the 
undersides, now didn't they?)  This may indeed be true of only a small % 
of either sides' aircraft, but it seems unique to these particular 
combatants in view of the whole war.  

Your serve,

Matt Z

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:46:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Patrick Padovan <ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Italian/Austrian  markings - was Smer Ansaldo
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.980114102658.19808A-100000@timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>

Dear Sandy: Well, you may be right about the drivel, re the similarity
between A/H and Italian national markings. However, I think you are being
too narrow minded about the stripes. Yes, SOME individual British and
French a/c used tri-color striping as an individual marking, but it wasn't
their official national marking, nor was it mass-applied (if I may use
that term) to their planes. But both Italy and the AHE WIDELY used
national colors applied in stripes to their a/c as a national marking,
although they did differ in their execution. The colors are even similar:
red/white/red vs red/white(with cdl substituted)green.
    And you don't see any similarity? Really? It seems obvious to me.
    Also, while the positioning of roundels inboard of elevators did
occur, as you say, on some a/c types (usually, I believe, as a distinction
of the maker, rather than as an officially designated decree) it was not
common in the RFC, RAF. It was the exception, rather than the norm, while
the reverse is true of Italy and the AHE. BTW, I believe you meant
ailerons, didn't you? You said elevators. (Neener neener!)
    Anyhow, I think I've belabored this long enough, and am probably
boring the rest of this list to tears. However, as I mentioned to you
before, I never argued that similarities in camouflage between Italy and
A/H were significant. Just National Markings. 
    Okay, drivel off!
                                                    Ciao! Patrick


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Padovan
Interlibrary Loan Associate    
             
Timberland Regional Library     Voice:   360-943-5001   
415 Airdustrial Way SW            FAX:   360-586-6838
Olympia, WA  98501-5799        e-mail:   ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us
------------------------------------------------------------------------   


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:52:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Patrick Padovan <ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: New Products
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.980114105119.19808B-100000@timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>

Gentlemen: Wasn't Sgt. Popkin's  MG set up on the grassy knoll?
                                                          Ciao, Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Padovan
Interlibrary Loan Associate    
             
Timberland Regional Library     Voice:   360-943-5001   
415 Airdustrial Way SW            FAX:   360-586-6838
Olympia, WA  98501-5799        e-mail:   ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us
------------------------------------------------------------------------   


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:57:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Patrick Padovan <ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Italian/Austrian markings - was Smer Ansaldo
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.980114105349.19808C-100000@timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>

Dear Matt: The Italian use of underwing tri-color was also standard issue
on their Macchi-Nieuport 11s, to name another a/c type widely used on
this front. On the A/H side, the red/white/red wingtip stripes could be
found on Lohner flying boats and Phonix fighters in AH naval use, among
others. Hope this helps!
                                                   Ciao, Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Padovan
Interlibrary Loan Associate    
             
Timberland Regional Library     Voice:   360-943-5001   
415 Airdustrial Way SW            FAX:   360-586-6838
Olympia, WA  98501-5799        e-mail:   ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us
------------------------------------------------------------------------   

On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Matthew Zivich wrote:

> 
> 
> On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Sandy Adam wrote:
> 
> > Or am I  reading WAY too much into this, and talking complete drivel?
> > >                                                       Regards, Patrick  
> > 
> > Yes Patrick I think you are.
> > 
> > There are a few similarities on some aircraft, which is as far as it goes.
> > But there are also many dissimilarities.
> > Some Italian aircraft had one under-wing tip red and the other green
> > instead of applying roundels. Thus the whole undersurface became
> > effectively a tricolore (but with CDL rather than white.)
> > Some Austrian aircraft applied red/white/red stripes on upper- and
> > lower-wing tips so you had in effect four separate flags at the extremity
> > of each wing. Not one big flag.
> > Also  these were applied in addition to national markings, whereas the
> > Italian underwing colours were in place of them.
> > Its worth remembering that several French and British aircraft applied
> > red/white/blue stripes to upper and/or lower elevators. Nungesser of course
> > applied them across the wings too.
> > 
> > As for the markings being applied inboard of the elevators, this is hardly
> > peculiar to the Austro-Italian front as it was standard practice on a great
> > number of British aircraft, most commonly on SEs. Look at McCudden's plane
> > or the "Zanzibar" FE2b. Come to think of it, it was also standard practice
> > on a great number of American aircraft too. I don't think too many Jennies
> > flew combat missions over the Piave, but you may be able to correct me on
> > that.
> > Also plenty of Italian (and Austrian) aircraft did cover elevators with
> > national markings.
> > 
> > As for the sponged/speckled camouflage, out of all the variety of colour
> > schemes applied by the Austrians and Italians two have a slight degree of
> > similarity - but so many do not. And with other types of speckled camoulage
> > on each side which the other did not use. (Autumn Leaf etc). Also other
> > nationalities used speckles (Halberstadt Cl.II).
> > 
> > So the stripes are not the same, the positioning is commonplace and the
> > camouflage is not that similar either. No on a matching scale of 1 to 100,
> > I'd say we are in the decimal point area: on the talking drivel scale
> > though.....
> > Sandy
> > 
> O.K. I'm convinced, I guess.  I am left with this summary of sorts.  I am 
> aware of underwing national colors near the outer edges of lower & upper 
> wings on the Ansaldo SVA-5 and perhaps one or two others I can't name. I 
> am aware that the Its. immediate adversaries, the A/H's used a similar 
> marking in similar positions on the wings of certain aircraft that too I 
> cannot identify at this time.  I understand that no other 
> adversaries used aforementioned markings that seem to be totally unique 
> to the Ital. & Aus-Hun. aircrafts regardless of amounts involved.  Large 
> numbers of other markings, etc. by either side do not negate the lone 
> occurances that appear no where else at that time.
> 
> The same is true of the splotched camouflage according to my limited to 
> be sure, observations.  The Halb. had a stippled pattern on the fuselage 
> that lost distinction beyond a short distance because of the scale of the 
> marks.  The splotched camouflage maintained distinction at a greater 
> distance and was shared by the Ital. & A/H's on the wings of the Caproni 
> bombers & SVA aircraft and on greater parts of the Alb. Oeffag's 
> including but not restricted to the wings. (Both sides used CDL on the 
> undersides, now didn't they?)  This may indeed be true of only a small % 
> of either sides' aircraft, but it seems unique to these particular 
> combatants in view of the whole war.  
> 
> Your serve,
> 
> Matt Z
> 


------------------------------

End of WWI Digest 846
*********************