WWI Digest 1325 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Jo Kotula dies by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 2) Re: Jo Kotula dies by KarrArt@aol.com 3) Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit by "Charles or Linda Duckworth" 4) Re: Lost Archives, Illinois 61275 by GRBroman@aol.com 5) Off topic - CBI Dakota by Bob Pearson 6) Re: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 7) Barker/B6313 page by Bob Pearson 8) Re: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 9) Quarter Scale Modeler (off topic request) by John & Allison Cyganowski 10) Re: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 11) Re: Jo Kotula dies by "David Vosburgh" 12) Voss Again by John & Allison Cyganowski 13) Re: Voss Again by "David Vosburgh" 14) Re: Voss Again by Zulis@aol.com 15) Re: Voss Again by "Charles or Linda Duckworth" 16) Re: Voss Again by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:18:27 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Jo Kotula dies Message-ID: <199812050518.VAA18874@ednet1.orednet.org> The most recent issue of the Kit Collectors' Clearinghouse brings word that Jo Kotula passed away this summer. Mr. Kotula is best known for having done all the box artwork for the original issues of Aurora WW1 aircraft kits. Mr. Kotula also did the box art for the Frog Vickers Vimy as well as several other (off topic) Aurora and Frog kits. May he be flying through sunlit skies - with, perhaps, a splash of orange or purple on the clouds. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:58:58 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Jo Kotula dies Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/98 9:19:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, bshatzer@orednet.org writes: << The most recent issue of the Kit Collectors' Clearinghouse brings word that Jo Kotula passed away this summer. Mr. Kotula is best known for having done all the box artwork for the original issues of Aurora WW1 aircraft kits. Mr. Kotula also did the box art for the Frog Vickers Vimy as well as several other (off topic) Aurora and Frog kits. May he be flying through sunlit skies - with, perhaps, a splash of orange or purple on the clouds. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies!" >> He also did a lot of Model Airp[lane News overs. I still have a cover from 1964 (I think) of a Taube sailing through the most billious green sky in the history of painting! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:50:58 -0600 From: "Charles or Linda Duckworth" To: "ww1list" Subject: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit Message-ID: <199812051446.IAA17931@mail.primary.net> Graham Nash send me a copy of the Airfaix magazine from February 1969 sometime back and I'm about to start cutting into the SMER 504K kit to begin backdating it to an earlier version (A or B). Changes I noted so far in researching several photos are: - fuselage sides are straight from the cowling and metal panels not faired as with the later versions. - cowling almost closed in the front vs. later larger opening for cooling. - early cowlings appears to have a more 'rounded' profile vs. the later horseshoe cowling and have a streamlined metal '>' behind the cowling. - Airfix drawing shows the lower wing roots cutout (about a third of the cord from the back of the wing). Everything else (wings, tailplanes, undercarriage) seems to have been standard (504K and earlier). Have I missed anything that is obvious, I know Sandy has studied these a/c from his previous emails. Thanks for any feedback - with Exacto saw 'in hand'.....Charlie. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:12:11 EST From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Lost Archives, Illinois 61275 Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/98 12:38:56 PM EST, michel.lefort@ping.be writes: << >list is when you screw up in front of everyone... Don't be pessimistic. See the bright side of things. How much do you learn from your mistakes? Much. An dhow much do you learn from your successes? Practically nothing. So come on. You know more now ;-). Regards. >> Yes, I know now that the greatest cause of computer malfunctions is " system improvements" :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 12:34:25 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Off topic - CBI Dakota Message-ID: <20342509507741@KAIEN.COM> Greetings all, I have been asked to do a painting (not a profile) for a friend's father of the a/c he flew in WW2. His father flew an RAF C-47 in the CBI, but he doesn't know the squadron or any other info at the moment. John is going to have his brother sneak a look at their dad's logbooks and see what can be turned up, but in the meantime am I correct in assuming it would be in brown/green/sky camouflage? Were codes used on transport a/c? any help gratefully accepted. Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 01:10:06 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit Message-ID: <366A49EE.165D@ricochet.net> Charles or Linda Duckworth wrote: > > - fuselage sides are straight from the cowling and metal panels not faired > as with the later versions. > - cowling almost closed in the front vs. later larger opening for cooling. > - early cowlings appears to have a more 'rounded' profile vs. the later > horseshoe cowling and have a streamlined metal '>' behind the cowling. I have a color profile of one of the Friedrichshafen raiders, #874. It shows slightly complex side cowlings: flat side panels w/teardrop shaped bulges , the trailing half forming the '>' so it looks something like this: C>\ I can't vouch for the accuracy of the profile, as its from an old book called Aces of the Air or somesuch. At least some if not most of the early 'planes were CDL w/black cowlings. The profile shows no national insignia. Did Nov. 1914 pre-date the Union Jack? FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:16:51 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list , Subject: Barker/B6313 page Message-ID: <22165170407880@KAIEN.COM> Greetings all, Thanks to the genrosity of Chris Banyai-Riepl, I have now placed my earlier Aviation What-Not article on WG Barker and his Sopwith Camel B6313 on my website . . I haven't worked the link in yet as I think the front page needs to be redesigned. . so until then it can be found at . . . .. http://www.kaien.com/~bpearson/Barker/Barker.htm Regards, Bob Pearson Visit my WW1 aviation page at http://www.kaien.com/~bpearson/Index.htm Internet Modeler http://www.avsim.com/mike/awn/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:52:53 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit Message-ID: <199812052252.OAA29668@ednet1.orednet.org> Riordan writes: >Charles or Linda Duckworth wrote: >> - fuselage sides are straight from the cowling and metal panels not faired >> as with the later versions. >> - cowling almost closed in the front vs. later larger opening for cooling. >> - early cowlings appears to have a more 'rounded' profile vs. the later >> horseshoe cowling and have a streamlined metal '>' behind the cowling. >I have a color profile of one of the Friedrichshafen raiders, #874. It >shows slightly complex side cowlings: flat side panels w/teardrop shaped >bulges , the trailing half forming the '>' so it looks something like >this: C>\ I can't vouch for the accuracy of the profile, as its from an >old book called Aces of the Air or somesuch. At least some if not most >of the early 'planes were CDL w/black cowlings. The profile shows no >national insignia. Did Nov. 1914 pre-date the Union Jack? That agrees with the (poor quality) photo I have of #785 - which was not one of the Friedrichshafen raiders but which the photo caption claims is "similar". Your description of the side cowlings and panels agrees spot on with the photo. There also appears to be some sort of "fairing" or "crest" on the cowling itself - coming almost to a point at the propellor shaft opening and running up and back to the rear of the cowling where it widens out to almost the full width of the fuselage. The picture is of sufficiently poor quality that its difficult to tell much more. The aircraft, incidently, seems to lack all markings and insignia save the "785" serial on the rudder. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:55:15 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Quarter Scale Modeler (off topic request) Message-ID: <3669B9D3.68E7@worldnet.att.net> I saw that a new Quarter Scale Modeler Magazine is up on the Squadron Web page. They list an article about a "Sabre Dog" (F-86D). Can anybody fill me in on the details of this? Please reply off line. Thanks Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:43:04 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Early AVRO 504 changes for the SMER kit Message-ID: <199812052343.PAA18160@ednet1.orednet.org> I wrote: -snips- >There also appears to be some sort of "fairing" >or "crest" on the cowling itself - coming almost to a point at >the propellor shaft opening and running up and back to the rear of >the cowling where it widens out to almost the full width of the >fuselage. The picture is of sufficiently poor quality that its difficult >to tell much more. Whoops! Never mind. I just pulled out my datafile on the AVRO 504K and there is a photo in there (page 2) of some sort of hybred mark of 504 with some sort of fabric "hood" or "pad" exactly where the "crest" appears on the photo of 785. I have no idea what the purpose of this thingamabob might be but it definitely appears detachable. So, in the absense of a better explanation, I'm assuming that what appears to be a "crest" or "fairing" on the front/top of 785's cowling is, in fact, a similar thingamabob and not a permanent feature of the cowling. Any ideas on what this thingamabob is or what its purpose might be? Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:05:43 -0500 From: "David Vosburgh" To: Subject: Re: Jo Kotula dies Message-ID: <008201be20ac$2c045de0$1dd690d0@Pvosburg> Sad note for all of us who grew up looking at his artwork. I wonder how many kits he and Steel sold between them by virtue of their wondrous paintings? I used to cut the boxtops out and plaster them to the wall of my bedroom after I finished the kits... just couldn't stand to throw them away. Happy landings, Jo. DV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Shatzer To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 12:47 AM Subject: Jo Kotula dies > > > >The most recent issue of the Kit Collectors' Clearinghouse brings >word that Jo Kotula passed away this summer. Mr. Kotula is best >known for having done all the box artwork for the original issues of >Aurora WW1 aircraft kits. Mr. Kotula also did the box art for the >Frog Vickers Vimy as well as several other (off topic) Aurora and Frog >kits. > >May he be flying through sunlit skies - with, perhaps, a splash of >orange or purple on the clouds. > >Cheers and all, > > > > > >-- > Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org > > "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' > at will to old ladies!" > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:37:09 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Voss Again Message-ID: <3669D1B5.5E3F@worldnet.att.net> I should know better by now, but we haven't beaten this one up in what? Weeks? An excerpt from "An Interview with Voss' Mechanic--Gefreiter Karl Timm, Jasta 10", Alex Imrie, Cross & Cockade (US), Vol.2, No.3, Autumn 1961: "The second production FOKKER TRIPLANE F.I 103/17 had been completed and test flown on the 16th of August. It was dispatched to the front on the 21st, arriving and being allocated to Jasta 10 a few days later. Voss first flew this machine on the 28th on short familliarisation flights. Herr Timm states that this aircraft was coloured grey, the forward part of the fuselage and the engine cowling were very dark grey, to use Timm's own words an "earth grey", while the shade used aft of the cockpit and on the tail unit was "silver grey", all undersurfaces were coloured a light sky blue, and the top surfaces of the mainplanes were streaked in dark and light areas with various shades of grey. Herr Timm has no recollection of doing any additional painting on this machine, he maintains that it was flown as delivered." :-) Cyg. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 20:15:39 -0500 From: "David Vosburgh" To: Subject: Re: Voss Again Message-ID: <008b01be20b5$f06d0ac0$1dd690d0@Pvosburg> Missed out on this one earlier, but didn't McCudden (or was it Rhys-Davids?) describe it as a "little silver-blue triplane"? I always wondered how you could get silver-blue out of Fok. streaky-green, especially given that it was an overcast day. DV -----Original Message----- From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 8:23 PM Subject: Voss Again >I should know better by now, but we haven't beaten this one up in what? >Weeks? >snip >Herr Timm states that this aircraft was coloured grey, the forward part >of the fuselage and the engine cowling were very dark grey, to use >Timm's own words an "earth grey", while the shade used aft of the >cockpit and on the tail unit was "silver grey", all undersurfaces were >coloured a light sky blue, and the top surfaces of the mainplanes were >streaked in dark and light areas with various shades of grey. Herr Timm >has no recollection of doing any additional painting on this machine, he >maintains that it was flown as delivered." > >:-) >Cyg. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 20:28:33 EST From: Zulis@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Voss Again Message-ID: << Herr Timm states that this aircraft was coloured grey, the forward part of the fuselage and the engine cowling were very dark grey, to use Timm's own words an "earth grey", while the shade used aft of the cockpit and on the tail unit was "silver grey", all undersurfaces were coloured a light sky blue, and the top surfaces of the mainplanes were streaked in dark and light areas with various shades of grey. >> grey? grey??? Lord have mercy... DZ ps - what, exactly, is "earth grey" anyway? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:36:22 -0600 From: "Charles or Linda Duckworth" To: Subject: Re: Voss Again Message-ID: <199812060130.TAA22718@mail.primary.net> Due to this being an early Fokker Triplane, believe the reference was due to the fabric being completely doped in the light turquoise with green streaks being applied over it vs the later green over the fabric coloring. ---------- > From: David Vosburgh > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Voss Again > Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 7:15 PM > > Missed out on this one earlier, but didn't McCudden (or was it Rhys-Davids?) > describe it as a "little silver-blue triplane"? > I always wondered how you could get silver-blue out of Fok. streaky-green, > especially given that it was an overcast day. > > DV > > -----Original Message----- > From: John & Allison Cyganowski > To: Multiple recipients of list > Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 8:23 PM > Subject: Voss Again > > > >I should know better by now, but we haven't beaten this one up in what? > >Weeks? > >snip > >Herr Timm states that this aircraft was coloured grey, the forward part > >of the fuselage and the engine cowling were very dark grey, to use > >Timm's own words an "earth grey", while the shade used aft of the > >cockpit and on the tail unit was "silver grey", all undersurfaces were > >coloured a light sky blue, and the top surfaces of the mainplanes were > >streaked in dark and light areas with various shades of grey. Herr Timm > >has no recollection of doing any additional painting on this machine, he > >maintains that it was flown as delivered." > > > >:-) > >Cyg. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 20:04:16 -0800 (PST) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Voss Again Message-ID: <199812060404.UAA25986@ednet1.orednet.org> > >Missed out on this one earlier, but didn't McCudden (or was it Rhys-Davids?) >describe it as a "little silver-blue triplane"? >I always wondered how you could get silver-blue out of Fok. streaky-green, >especially given that it was an overcast day. Captain K L Caldwell, B flight leader, is quoted as refering to it as "a blue-grey triplane". But the Incident Report for G72 written by the officer who examined the wreckage is probably the best British reference for the colors of F1.103/17.. "The machine features a new attempt by the enemy at camouflage. The entire upper and side surfaces are doped in various shades of green, blue, and grey which takes the form of streaks applied at various angles - vertical on the fuselage and slanted on the tail. The upper and second wing have not been salved but the streaks on the bottom wing are just off the vertical, slanting slightly to the left. Lower surfaces are a greyish blue. ..." I would speculate that the references to "grey" in this report probably refer to areas where the green only thinly over-covered the underlying "greyish blue" which could well leave a greyish color. Caldwell's report may result from a view of the undersurfaces or may just be the typical sort of error one sees in "after-action" reports by pilots who were really more concerned with putting bullets into the enemy craft (and preventing the enemy from putting bullets into his) than in comparing observed colors against mental Methuen charts. There are lots of photos of 103/17 extant and the "break" in "color" on the fuselage commented on by Timm is real although it seems to come a bit further forward than the cockpit. However, examining the photos, it seems to me that this is just a heavier, less streaky application of the basic green over-paint than some sort of actual separate color as Timm apparently remembered it. Still, the effect could have been such as it appeared two separate colors - especially to someone trying to remember such things many years after the fact. Cheers and all, Bill >DV > >-----Original Message----- >From: John & Allison Cyganowski >To: Multiple recipients of list >Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 8:23 PM >Subject: Voss Again > > >>I should know better by now, but we haven't beaten this one up in what? >>Weeks? >>snip >>Herr Timm states that this aircraft was coloured grey, the forward part >>of the fuselage and the engine cowling were very dark grey, to use >>Timm's own words an "earth grey", while the shade used aft of the >>cockpit and on the tail unit was "silver grey", all undersurfaces were >>coloured a light sky blue, and the top surfaces of the mainplanes were >>streaked in dark and light areas with various shades of grey. Herr Timm >>has no recollection of doing any additional painting on this machine, he >>maintains that it was flown as delivered." >> >>:-) >>Cyg. >> > > > -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies!" ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1325 **********************