WWI Digest 1282 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage/Lt. Wilhelm Frankl by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 2) Re: Off-Sub: Return of the Bulldog by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 3) Latest OtF by mbittner@juno.com (Matthew E Bittner) 4) Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage by Dave Watts 5) Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage by Dave Watts 6) Re: Latest OtF by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 7) Re: Latest OtF by mbittner@juno.com (Matthew E Bittner) 8) Stark's D.VII (was Re: Latest OtF) by Bob Pearson 9) Re: Stark's D.VII (was Re: Latest OtF) by Ernest Thomas 10) Stark's Fokker D.VII by "K. Hagerup" 11) Re: Stark's Fokker D.VII by Bob Pearson 12) Re: Stark's Fokker D.VII by KarrArt@aol.com 13) RE: Windsock rumors by Shane Weier 14) RE: Latest OtF by Shane Weier 15) Etched in Stone, Words From the Great War by "John C Glaser" 16) BE & RE Database by "Andy Kemp" 17) Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage by "Sandy Adam" 18) The Real Kaiser Bill by "Sandy Adam" 19) Re: Latest OtF by "Sandy Adam" 20) Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage by "Peter Crow" 21) Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage by "Sandy Adam" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:46:18 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage/Lt. Wilhelm Frankl Message-ID: <3645686A.3383@ricochet.net> bucky@ptdprolog.net wrote: > > I should know better by now to wait and see what Bob has in his vast collection > of info ! Did Frankl even win the PLM? Is there a Frankl? Yes, there was a Lt. der Reserve Wilhelm Frankl, and he was awarded the Blue Max for eight victories by 10 July 1916. Frankle would achieve another twelve victories (one of them at night, and three later that same day all within an hour) before being shot down by 48 Squadron during Bloody April. The $%&#ing Nazis removed his name from the list of air heroes of WWI because he was a Jew, but his name was restored in 1973 and Luftwaffe Sq. Nr.74 was named after him. Anyone have any info on Frankl's Albatros(en) or general info on Jasta 4 aircraft/markings before 6 April 1917? FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 02:04:17 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Off-Sub: Return of the Bulldog Message-ID: <36456CA1.6D63@ricochet.net> Mark Shanks wrote: > Stray not from the path, lest ye be > put-upon by Shub-Blabbermouth, He-Who-Knows-All-Yet-Buildeth-Not." > > I'd opt for the Engines and Things, for the buckage ($5.35 from Av. > Usk...) > > Abdul Alhazred Sounds like someone's been reading a bit too much Lovecraft. At least your taste in excesses is exceptional. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:52:06 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com (Matthew E Bittner) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Latest OtF Message-ID: <19981107.165207.-949307.0.mbittner@juno.com> Vol 13 No 3 of Over the Front came today. What a great issue! Granted, there are no French articles (except a small blurb about Lufberry) but overall this is a great issue. I especially like Stark's purple D.VII... Well done Georgia Chapter! Matt Bittner ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:23:02 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage Message-ID: <199811080028.TAA01714@sam.on-net.net>   I thought it was Wintgens, but wasn't sure. Don't feel bad Mike, I felt the same way after saying I thought it was a SE5A.
 
Why don't I look this stuff up befoe sticking in my 2 cents worth. Going to wall now to bang head against it.(It's been one of those days).
Mike Muth

  It's good to guess, after being wrong enough times, you don't hit your head anymore, you just laugh, and say "Oh yea, did it again!", plus it doesn't hurt so much.  This is speaking from personal experience.
Best,
Dave W.

------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:26:03 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage Message-ID: <199811080031.TAA01822@sam.on-net.net> Great spot Bob, can you come over and organize my reference materials? You must be doing pretty good, does it come with age or frustration? Best, Dave W. >The pilot appears to be Kurt Wintgens . . . And the serial that of a MS >Parasol . . lets see what I can find . . . . . > > . . . .Almost correct. .. . . according to Bruce in RFC Aeroplanes 5177 is >a BB. Above the Lines has Wintgens downing a Parasol (5177 of No.60 Sqn) on >2 August 1916. .. > >Lets check on a history of 60 Sqn in C&C(GB)12/1 . . BB 5177 lost on 2.8.16 >Lt Ormsby PoW, Lt Newton DOW .. . > >Wintgens was awarded the PlM after his 8th victory and this was his 13th of >an eventual 19 > >All in all an interesting photo. > > >Regards, > Bob Pearson >---------- >> From: Dave Watts >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage >> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:36:43 -0500 (EST) >> >> Hi all, >> Click on this and see if you can identify the "Blue Max" holder by his >> latest victim's wreckage. It looks like possibly a SE.5A, but there's not >> much left. Good Luck. >> Best, >> Dave W. >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=39058682 >> > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 06:06:31 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Latest OtF Message-ID: <3645A567.94E@ricochet.net> Matthew E Bittner wrote: > > I especially like Stark's purple D.VII... Tell us more! All purple or just the fuselage? Markings? I've been threatening to build a WWI plane to send with wife to work, and she's partial to purple. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:51:06 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com (Matthew E Bittner) To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Latest OtF Message-ID: <19981107.215107.-938937.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:07:23 -0500 (EST) mgoodwin@ricochet.net writes: >Tell us more! All purple or just the fuselage? Markings? I've been >threatening to build a WWI plane to send with wife to work, and she's >partial to purple. The last incarnation of it (I think it was only one D.VII - I haven't read the text yet) has a purple nose (the demarcation between the metal and the wood); a purple chevron on the upper wing; purple tail (including the fuselage under the horizontal tail) with a white fin and rudder; and a purple, black-bordered stripe on the fuselage with "Li" in it. (Actually, the tail is black bordered as well.) This is a cool looking aircraft! The rest of the airframe is lozenge with olive wheel discs. HTH. Matt Bittner ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:46:28 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Stark's D.VII (was Re: Latest OtF) Message-ID: <04462851404797@KAIEN.COM> For those not getting OTF, I've posted two versions of this Js.35b aircraft to my site. And no, the article (or profile) isn't by me. My bet is Terry Webb/Joe Alcober did the article and profiles respectively. In addition to the top wing lilac chevron there is a black one below the bottom wing. Regards, Bob Pearson (bemoaning the fact I won't get mine until next week) ---------- Riordan and Matt write . . > >Tell us more! All purple or just the fuselage? Markings? I've been > >threatening to build a WWI plane to send with wife to work, and she's > >partial to purple. > > The last incarnation of it (I think it was only one D.VII - I haven't > read the text yet) has a purple nose (the demarcation between the metal > and the wood); a purple chevron on the upper wing; purple tail (including > the fuselage under the horizontal tail) with a white fin and rudder; and > a purple, black-bordered stripe on the fuselage with "Li" in it. > (Actually, the tail is black bordered as well.) > > This is a cool looking aircraft! The rest of the airframe is lozenge > with olive wheel discs. HTH. > > > Matt Bittner > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 23:04:01 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Stark's D.VII (was Re: Latest OtF) Message-ID: <36452641.C22@bellsouth.net> Bob Pearson wrote: > > For those not getting OTF, I've posted two versions of this Js.35b aircraft > to my site. Muchas gracias. Looks Smashing! E ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 23:30:19 -0600 From: "K. Hagerup" To: "wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Stark's Fokker D.VII Message-ID: <36452C6B.15E6@prodigy.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3A38408E6DEC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The USAF Museum's D.VII is painted as StarK's aircraft. Some good photoes at this site. http://129.48.28.13/museum/early_years/ey4c.htm Ken --------------3A38408E6DEC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="ey4c.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ey4c.htm" Content-Base: "http://129.48.28.13/museum/early_years /ey4c.htm" Fokker D.VII FOKKER D.VII

First appearing over the World War I battlefield in May 1918, the Fokker D.VII quickly showed its superior performance over Allied fighters. With its high rate of climb, higher ceiling, and excellent handling characteristics, the German pilots were able to score 565 victories over Allied aircraft during August 1918.

Designed by Reinhold Platz, the D.VII was chosen over several other designs during a competition held in January and February 1918. Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the famous Red Baron, flew the prototype, designated V11. He found it easy to fly, able to dive at high speed quickly yet remain steady as a rock, and had good visibility for the pilot. His recommendation virtually decided the competition. To achieve higher production rates, Fokker, the Albatross company, and the Allgemeine Elektrizitats Gesellschaft (A.E.G.) all built the D.VII. By war's end in November 1918, these three companies had built more than 1,700 aircraft.

The aircraft on display, a reproduction, is painted to represent the Fokker D.VII of Lt. Rudolph Stark, a squadron leader of Jasta (Fighter Squadron) 35b in October 1918. It was placed on exhibit in May 1996.

SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 29 ft. 3.5 in.
Length: 22 ft. 11.5 in.
Height: 9 ft. 2.5 in.
Weight: 1,540 lbs. empty/1,939 lbs. loaded
Armament: Two 7.92 Spandau machine guns firing through the propeller
Engine: Mercedes 160 hp. or BMW 185 hp.
Crew: One

PERFORMANCE
Max. speed: 120 mph/104 knots (Mercedes engine)/124 mph/107 knots (BMW engine)
Service ceiling: 18,000 ft. (Mercedes engine)/21,000 ft. (BMW engine)

Go to the next display

Return to the Early Years Gallery

--------------3A38408E6DEC-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:48:44 -0800 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Stark's Fokker D.VII Message-ID: <05484490604865@KAIEN.COM> ARGHHH more of that darn Weyl/Platz myth . . .. . will it never go away . .. not likely if even museums are using it . . .. Platz was a welder, nothing more, nothing less . . . . Weyl just refused to give Fokker his credit, even when Platz admitted he hadn't designed any of the Fokker a/c . .. and yet this gets repeated over and over . . . . But an excellent job was done on their D.VII and that is the main thing. regards, (a somewhat P.O.ed) Bob Pearson > Designed by Reinhold Platz, the D.VII was chosen over several > other designs during a competition held in January and February > 1918. Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the famous Red Baron, > flew the prototype, designated V11. He found it easy to fly, > able to dive at high speed quickly yet remain steady as a rock, > and had good visibility for the pilot. His recommendation virtually > decided the competition. To achieve higher production > rates, Fokker, the Albatross company, and the Allgemeine Elektrizitats > Gesellschaft (A.E.G.) all built the D.VII. By war's end in > November 1918, these three companies had built more than 1,700 aircraft. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:10:27 EST From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: Stark's Fokker D.VII Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/98 9:34:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, hagerupk@prodigy.net writes: << Designed by Reinhold Platz >> The AF Museum is still running that bit o' tired misinformation? Shame Shame on them! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:48:09 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Windsock rumors Message-ID: David, > > I'd really like to them do the SPAD 7. > Datafile 8. I think it was reprinted recently and may well still be available, so I doubt it's likely Shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:54:35 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Latest OtF Message-ID: Matt posts (puzzlingly) > The last incarnation of it (I think it was only one D.VII - I haven't > read the text yet) has a purple nose (the demarcation between > the metal and the wood) What? Are we talking Fokker D.VII ? What wood? Shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:43:15 -0600 From: "John C Glaser" To: "WW1 Mail List" Subject: Etched in Stone, Words From the Great War Message-ID: <000501be0b1d$bcc81960$f011820a@johng-home> This is a little lengthy, but of more than passing interest to list members. Clipped from today's New York Times on the Web. BRAYE-EN-LAONNOIS, France -- Georges Lievin, 57, was not even alive when World War I, the Great War, ended 80 years ago this month, but he, too, became its victim. "In 1991," he said, "in one of the fields around here, I found one of the artillery shells the Germans used to fire messages between battlefields." He was taking a couple of visitors on a tour of the overgrown ruins of Fort Malmaison, held by the German invaders from September 1914 to October 1917 against countless French attacks. "My father, who spent years disabling mines in this area, had told me that the Germans never boobytrapped message shells," said Lievin, who is retired from the French army. "This one went off while I was cleaning it at home." The explosion, three-quarters of a century after the war, cost him an arm and most of a leg, but if anything it only heightened his interest in the great conflict that still scars the placid countryside. Under the trees on wooded hills run the outlines of artillery-shell craters and trench lines, incisions left by the biggest organized slaughter in human history up to that time. Even today, not only ammunition but dog tags, bones and occasionally more complete remains of fallen soldiers come to the surface. How much longer the war will remain vivid in collective consciousness is more of a question as Nov. 11, the 80th anniversary of the armistice, approaches. Invited to come to France to commemorate it, both President Clinton and Germany's newly elected chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, said no. Queen Elizabeth II of Britain will lay a wreath on the tomb of the unknown French soldier who is buried at the foot of the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, on Nov. 11 at 11 a.m., the hour the armistice was signed, and then dedicate a statue to Winston Churchill, the British prime minister during the Second World War, which was spawned by the first. Later that day, she will visit, at Ypres in Belgium, one of the great World War I battlefields that claimed an entire British generation of boys and men. President Jacques Chirac, unlike his two immediate predecessors, will not lay a wreath at the grave of the greatest French hero of the war, Marshal Philippe Petain. The marshal blackened his reputation as head of the Vichy regime, which collaborated with Nazi Germany after France's defeat in 1940, as Hitler took revenge for the humiliation he felt the Allies had inflicted on the Germans after the World War I armistice. Now, most veterans of the first war are dead. The few still alive are or soon will be centenarians, men like Charles Fackler, 98, of Wescoville, Pa., who survived a bullet to the stomach and an attack of German phosgene and chlorine gas with the U.S. National Guard 28th Division in the Argonne Forest in 1918. "I haven't been back to France since," Fackler said over the telephone from the nursing home where he lives. "I remember getting shot, and then the gas came and I couldn't get up, but I survived." According to U.S. Army records, 52,947 Americans were killed. Even more U.S. troops died of influenza and other diseases during a war that killed at least 1.8 million German soldiers, 1.7 million Russian, almost 1.3 million Austro-Hungarian, 1.4 million French and nearly three-quarters of a million British troops, along with millions of civilians and troops of other nations on the Eastern front from the Middle East through Turkey, Crimea, the Balkans and the Baltics. The war shaped the world, and the century, sweeping away the Russian, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires and unleashing forces of nationalism that still grip the Balkans today. It was near here, on this tiny part of the Western front, that the United States, roused out of isolationism by President Woodrow Wilson, played the crucial role at the end. The French and, to the north, their British and Belgian allies had fought the German invaders to a standstill in 1914 but then bogged down in years of trench warfare. Gen. John Pershing, the American commander, was determined that his troops would end the stalemate. A French attempt in 1917 to break through the German lines at Craonne along a road called the Chemin des Dames had failed in horrific slaughter, and thousands of French soldiers mutinied. The following spring, the Germans swept past them in a vast advance that seemed to threaten Paris. But by then the United States had entered the war, eventually building a force of more than a million, which tipped the balance in favor of the Allies. Together they pushed the Germans back in a series of great offensives from the Somme Valley to the Argonne Forest in the late summer and fall of 1918, and the exhausted Germans sued for peace. In the ensuing decades, many people in Braye-en-Laonnois -- a town of 192 people on the edges of the Champagne countryside northeast of Paris -- forgot that Americans had ever been here. Then Lievin and other World War I buffs started digging near underground limestone quarries that honeycomb the area. What they found was evidence left by soldiers of three nations who had used the subterranean labyrinth and fought one another in it for three years. "Easy going down the ladder," warned Gilles Chauwin, one of the members of the Association du Chemin des Dames who recently got French authorities to declare the caves a national historical monument. The group had been seeking to keep souvenir hunters from making off with the evocative graffiti that the soldiers carved into the limestone or drew on it. Turning a flashlight onto one cave wall, Chauwin revealed a German inscription carved in July 1915 by W. Schmitz of the 9th Company, 161st Infantry Regiment. Next to it, Pierre Theoleyre of the 72nd French Infantry Regiment carved his own name two years later. Farther on, barbed wire marks the subterranean front line, and the cave ceiling is pocked with shrapnel from grenades. "God punish the K," an inscription in German reads over a depiction of the Kaiser as a pig in a spiked helmet -- whether drawn by a desperate German soldier or one of his French enemies, it is impossible to tell. "There are 1,000 graffiti in these caves, and 600 of them were American ones," Lievin said, laughing. "The Americans sure had a lot to say." American soldiers left whole galleries of the cave marked with their names; insignia of the Masons, the Odd Fellows, the Ancient Order of Hibernians; depictions of the American flag; portraits of American Indians in feathered headdress, and the seals of their home states. The soldiers here were all in the 26th National Guard, or "Yankee" Division, while it was training with French units in (or under) the field in February and March 1918. M.J. Maloney of 35 Wave Ave., Wakefield, Mass., and Sgt. Flagg of 66 Edgewood St., Worcester, Mass., were among the many who carved their names into the stone. So did Cpl. Earle W. Madeley of the 102nd U.S. Infantry Regiment, 20 years old when he signed his name here in March 1918, just before the German offensive that drove the Allies out that spring. >From July to October his division took 5,000 casualties in fighting that won the area back, and he was one. "Madeley never made it home," Chauwin said. "He's listed among the Yankee Division's dead." American dead from both World Wars are remembered in 21 cemeteries of the American Battle Monuments Commission that are located from England to Tunisia. Visitors to the American World War I cemeteries are dwindling, said Brig. Gen. James Dickey, the retired American officer in charge of them. Last Sept. 26, however, a delegation led by Secretary of the Army Togo West Jr. did visit the cemetery at Romagne-sous-Montfaucon, 26 miles northwest of Verdun, to pay homage to the 15,686 soldiers buried or listed as missing there, all people who died retaking the area in the final 47-day U.S. offensive in the Meuse-Argonne region in 1918. Among them was Cpl. Freddie Stowers of South Carolina, a member of the all-black 93rd Division who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for giving his life during an attack on a German machine-gun nest on Sept. 28, 1918. But that did not happen until 73 years later, in 1991, when the Army reviewed the service records of black soldiers and concluded that he had been overlooked because of his race. Pershing called the Meuse-Argonne offensive "one of the greatest achievements in the history of American arms." Had he had his way, the Allies would not have stopped on Nov. 11 but would have pursued the Germans across the border until their unconditional surrender. Would that have merely prolonged the first war, or avoided the second? "Who knows?" said Marc Bourdin, a member of the Chemin des Dames association. "The important thing is to make sure younger generations from all our countries never forget what happened here, and make sure it never happens again." That sentiment harks right back to those of the French mutineers of 1917. (They remained dishonored until last Thursday, when Prime Minister Lionel Jospin visited Craonne, on the Chemin des Dames, and formally rehabilitated them. A day later President Jacques Chirac called the action "inopportune.") A protest sung by soldiers on the Chemin des Dames so irritated French military commanders that they offered exemption from all military duty to anyone who would denounce its author. He was never found, but in 1919, a communist author, Paul Vaillant-Couturier, published the poignant text: It's finished, we've had enough, No marching anymore. ... Farewell life, farewell love, Farewell all the women, We're finished forever With this filthy war. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:32:21 -0000 From: "Andy Kemp" To: "wwi" Subject: BE & RE Database Message-ID: <006b01be0b2d$1ee04280$2507e8c3@whatever> Just to let the list members know that there's now another site around where you can view Bob Pearson's profiles! www.crossandcockade.com We're building the site to be more than "hi, this is who we are". Latest addition is a research database on-line, detailing the known histories of each individual BE12. Presentation and abbreviation conventions are similar to that used in the Air Britain publications in their Camel and SE5 Files. Bob "Legs" Pearson has kindly let me use some of his work to add a splash of colour and interest to the site, and Mick Davis is working on some plans for use too. If this is of interest, do watch this space because we are planning to extend the database to include every BE built - from the first BE1 to the last BE12b. Also coming along is the known history of each and every RE8. As I said this is a research project, so we're asking for contributions to add to the fund of knowledge. If anyone on the list has any info on BE & RE8 serials we'd be delighted to hear from you - and include the info in the database. I've a sneaking suspicion this project may grow ... Cheers, Andy Kemp www.crossandcockade.com Society of WW1 Aero Historians ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:29:11 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage Message-ID: <199811081610.QAA23329@beryl.sol.co.uk> According to Henshaw they both died - Ormsby of wounds a few days later and Newton KIA. (The RFC Communiques, probably mistakenly, thought they were brought down by AA fire.) I'm writing this at 11.25am on Remembrance Sunday and thinking of the sheer bloody murder of two young men in an antiquated piece of flying junk (a BB) being attacked by a single seat fighter (an Eindecker?), alone, well behind the lines. Well done Wintgens - I bet you were really proud of that one! Sandy ---------- > From: Dave Watts > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage > Date: 07 November 1998 16:34 > > Great spot Bob, can you come over and organize my reference materials? You > must be doing pretty good, does it come with age or frustration? > Best, > Dave W. > > > >The pilot appears to be Kurt Wintgens . . . And the serial that of a MS > >Parasol . . lets see what I can find . . . . . > > > > . . . .Almost correct. .. . . according to Bruce in RFC Aeroplanes 5177 is > >a BB. Above the Lines has Wintgens downing a Parasol (5177 of No.60 Sqn) on > >2 August 1916. .. > > > >Lets check on a history of 60 Sqn in C&C(GB)12/1 . . BB 5177 lost on 2.8.16 > >Lt Ormsby PoW, Lt Newton DOW .. . > > > >Wintgens was awarded the PlM after his 8th victory and this was his 13th of > >an eventual 19 > > > >All in all an interesting photo. > > > > > >Regards, > > Bob Pearson > >---------- > >> From: Dave Watts > >> To: Multiple recipients of list > >> Subject: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage > >> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:36:43 -0500 (EST) > >> > >> Hi all, > >> Click on this and see if you can identify the "Blue Max" holder by his > >> latest victim's wreckage. It looks like possibly a SE.5A, but there's not > >> much left. Good Luck. > >> Best, > >> Dave W. > >> > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=39058682 > >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:33:05 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: "AAA - WW1 Group" Subject: The Real Kaiser Bill Message-ID: <199811081610.QAA23335@beryl.sol.co.uk> Great telly documentary last night on Kaiser Wilhelm - if it surfaces locally don't miss it. Terrific footage and very well researched analysis of the Kaiser's role in the approach. outbreak, conduct and aftermath of WW1. The late stuff concerning his exile in Holland and dealings with Hitler were especially fascinating - I hadn't realised the old sod lived well into WW2 , dying in 1941. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:54:13 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Latest OtF Message-ID: <199811081610.QAA23322@beryl.sol.co.uk> Somebody did a nice 1/48 moel of this at the Nationals here - I was impressed and took a photo - but since the spool is still in the camera ... Sandy ---------- > From: Matthew E Bittner > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Latest OtF > Date: 07 November 1998 19:52 > > On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:07:23 -0500 (EST) mgoodwin@ricochet.net writes: > > >Tell us more! All purple or just the fuselage? Markings? I've been > >threatening to build a WWI plane to send with wife to work, and she's > >partial to purple. > > The last incarnation of it (I think it was only one D.VII - I haven't > read the text yet) has a purple nose (the demarcation between the metal > and the wood); a purple chevron on the upper wing; purple tail (including > the fuselage under the horizontal tail) with a white fin and rudder; and > a purple, black-bordered stripe on the fuselage with "Li" in it. > (Actually, the tail is black bordered as well.) > > This is a cool looking aircraft! The rest of the airframe is lozenge > with olive wheel discs. HTH. > > > Matt Bittner > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:23:34 PST From: "Peter Crow" To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage Message-ID: <19981108162335.22566.qmail@hotmail.com> ....>I'm writing this at 11.25am on Remembrance Sunday and thinking of the sheer >bloody murder of two young men in an antiquated piece of flying junk (a BB) >being attacked by a single seat fighter (an Eindecker?), alone, well behind >the lines. Well done Wintgens - I bet you were really proud of that one! > >Sandy > Sandy... Maybe I'm misinterperting your post, but it comes across as if from someone whos never been in a shooting war and thinks its some sort of a game.. Reminds me of coming back from overseas and being acussed of being a "baby killer" by people who didn't have a clue on what it was like to be there, but knew that they would never do such a thing.. P. Crow ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:11:04 -0800 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: interesting photo of WWI German ace by wreckage Message-ID: <199811081710.RAA24597@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Maybe I'm misinterperting your post, but it comes across as if from > someone whos never been in a shooting war..... Well you are rather. What I'm thinking about on Rememberance Sunday, of all days, is the usual WWI scenario of the Ace triumphing over the vanquished foe. The Ace gets the photos, the souvenirs, the medals, his place in the history books. But on Remembrance Day you remember them all - including the real heroes that flew the BEs and REs (and BBs for God's sake). These guys accepted the knowledge of almost certain death, day after day with the odds stacked hopelessly against them. Sandy PS I'll let you look for your next war somewhere else, Peter ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1282 **********************