WWI Digest 1237 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: October 8,1918:Alvin York by "Lee Mensinger" 2) Re: October 8,1918:Alvin York by John Huggins 3) Location of British Sqns by Bob Pearson 4) Re: Location of British Sqns by "Andy Kemp" 5) Zeppelin Staaken Kit. by David Kelly 6) Re: Zeppelin Staaken Kit. by "Gerald P. McOsker" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:37:12 -0500 From: "Lee Mensinger" To: wwi, "Lee Mensinger" Subject: Re: October 8,1918:Alvin York Message-ID: <361E0377.8B37050C@wireweb.net> Jason Paul Crouthamel wrote: > To all, > I meant no disrespect, and I was not specifically speaking of Alvin > York. I just wanted to share thoughts about war and memory. We often > hold up the acts of individuals, giving medals and admiring their actions. > But I can't help but see war as a tragedy so horrifying that such words as > "heroes" and "awards" distract us from the fact that millions of people > died lonely and tormenting deaths for things that made no sense to them. > True, Alvin York and many like him were "just doing their jobs" - did such > men think about God and country while they did what they did (and thus are > medals and commendations from their countries appropriate?). For most men > who died in these wars, their last words were for their mothers or their > friends. Those who survived were lucky and blessed. > > Regards to all, Jason Crouthamel Mr Crouthamel, what you have said is a basic truth but the real horror of war is the simple fact that the greatest cause of war rest in the hands of people who do not serve. To decry the award of a medal or two is a feeble way to protest the advent of such a terrible thing as war. The real test of courage was to when you failed to take action when it may have been possible to prevent the undertaking of war by taking part in events leading up to the actual outrage. Alvin York did not need to think about God and Country at the time of his heroic event. Having been in those kinds of situations myself I know exactly what one thinks of at such times and I am not a hero... You think of your friends next to you, and what they will think of you if you do not do your job. You may even think that you could be killed, but most likely not, but the main thought is to eliminate the menace and do it with the least risk to yourself. My main job was to stay in one place and operate a machine gun in a certain manner until no longer required to do so. Some people would run away to Canada or England before they saw the machine gun or were trained to use it. Then some people would consider them to be heroes for making a difficult (?) and cowardly decision. I have no personal argument with you, personally, but I do find the remarks about decorations to be somewhat denigrating to anyone who has served and been decorated. I never saw a newsman in the front lines. Except for Ernie Pyle they were to busy forty miles to the rear making up stories. If you want to say something about wars, talk about the "so called" Statesmen and the Politicians. They are the ones who say they are doing this for you, and making the World safe for Democracy. One of the most wicked and useless forms of Government ever devised, one step shy of anarchy. Alvin York, and the men in his charge, did it because it needed to be done and for no other reason... So far I as I know they were not even ordered to do it. This should be enough about the 8th of October 1918. If you wish to contact me directly please do so. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:53:12 -0500 From: John Huggins To: wwi Subject: Re: October 8,1918:Alvin York Message-ID: >Jason Paul Crouthamel wrote: > >> To all, >> I meant no disrespect, and I was not specifically speaking of Alvin >> York. I just wanted to share thoughts about war and memory. We often >> hold up the acts of individuals, giving medals and admiring their actions. >> But I can't help but see war as a tragedy so horrifying that such words as >> "heroes" and "awards" distract us from the fact that millions of people >> died lonely and tormenting deaths for things that made no sense to them. >> True, Alvin York and many like him were "just doing their jobs" - did such >> men think about God and country while they did what they did (and thus are >> medals and commendations from their countries appropriate?). For most men >> who died in these wars, their last words were for their mothers or their >> friends. Those who survived were lucky and blessed. >> >> Regards to all, Jason Crouthamel > >Mr Crouthamel, what you have said is a basic truth but the real horror of war >is the simple fact that the greatest cause of war rest in the hands of people >who do not serve. > >To decry the award of a medal or two is a feeble way to protest the advent of >such a terrible thing as war. The real test of courage was to when you >failed to take action when it may have been possible to prevent the >undertaking of war by taking part in events leading up to the actual outrage. > snip Well put Lee, I was in a different type of combat from you, but while flying refueling combat missions in Viet Nam in 1972 & 1973, we did not think about anyone except the guy who needed us and our gas at the time. Granted, we did not have free reign of the skies and were not able to go anywhere we wanted to, as all missions were scheduled and controlled. On the occasion when a pilot was in trouble and needed help, if we were the closest one to him, we went, because it was our job and not because we were thinking about God and Country or mom or the guys back at home base. There were many times when a crew would get a minor hand slap for leaving the anchor without command direction or consent, but it never came to any more than that. In some cases, someone would look at the event and determine that some type of award should be given. This was sometimes initiated by the crew whose can you had just pulled out of a bad spot, or from someone in a corner office who wasn't around at the time. In all cases, the feat was investigated prior any awards were presented. In almost all cases, the person or persons getting them was appreciative, but in his mind, he was just doing his job. John H ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:49:19 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Location of British Sqns Message-ID: <16491986424428@KAIEN.COM> Greetings all, I have had an off-list request for information on any British sqns based near Lassigny in the period May1918 to EOW. I seem to recall a map with each sqn based there listed on it. Anyone know of where this could be from? Same with units based in the Albert/Arras areas For those not in the know (and I was one), Lassigny is about 10 miles NNE of Compiegne. Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:30:44 +0100 From: "Andy Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Location of British Sqns Message-ID: <003c01bdf3b3$0ad26ca0$087be8c3@whatever> Hi Bob! There's a good map of the type you specify in Wise, "Canadian Airmen of the First World War". Late in the war airfields close to Compiegne were: Cramaille and Fismes, respectively 20 & 30 miles East Golancourt and Villeselve about 20 miles North Roye and Champien about 20 miles NNW. Hope this helps a little ... Andy Kemp >I have had an off-list request for information on any British sqns based >near Lassigny in the period May1918 to EOW. I seem to recall a map with each >sqn based there listed on it. Anyone know of where this could be from? > >Same with units based in the Albert/Arras areas > >For those not in the know (and I was one), Lassigny is about 10 miles NNE of >Compiegne. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:10:43 -0500 (EST) From: David Kelly To: World War One Modeling Group Subject: Zeppelin Staaken Kit. Message-ID: Hello, everyone. By way of introduction, let me say that I'm new to the list and have found the discussions quite interesting. I've also found a number of people quite helpful when I've asked for copies of articles offlist. OK, here's my question. In rooting through an old FSM (July 1997) I found something of interest to me in very fine print in an advert from Model Maniac (of NY, NY), namely a 1/72 Zeppelin Staaken vacuform kit from Classic Plane. I've spent much of my time at work today searching on-line hobby shops from stem to stern for such a kit with no luck. In fact, I've had little luck finding any kits from Classic Planes. Does anyone know if they are still out there and if the kit is still available anywhere? Many thanks in advance for any light that the group can shed. Yours, David ========================== David S. Kelly Information Specialist ERIC Social Studies/ Social Science Education Clearinghouse (812) 855-3995 dkelly@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:23:40 -0400 From: "Gerald P. McOsker" To: wwi Subject: Re: Zeppelin Staaken Kit. Message-ID: David Kelly inquireth about-a 1/72 Zeppelin Staaken vacuform kit from >Classic Plane. I believe I had this at one point- it is not the bomber but a conversion done in 1920 when they [ our Teutonic brethren- tried to make it into a civilian airliner. The Allied COntrol COmmission found it to be a potential threat and require that it be junked. The kit therefore is rather boringly peaceful. But- there is a gnome in England trying to redo the Contrail Staaken bomber in 1:72. Stay tuned. Gerry ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1237 **********************