WWI Digest 1202 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) News Release - USAF Museum by "Jim Elkins" 2) What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon by KarrArt@aol.com 3) "Customer" relations by Dave Watts 4) Re: Letter from Americal Gryphon by Zulis@aol.com 5) Re: (Off Topic) APMA annual auction and R.E.8 by "Tom Werner Hansen" 6) Re: Letter from Americal Gryphon by Zulis@aol.com 7) Cole Palen's Flying Circus Video by aew (Allan Wright) 8) WTB: Blue Max SPAD VII by Modelhound@aol.com 9) Re: Americal and the list by "Richard Eaton" 10) Blue Max Sopwith Camel Question by Modelhound@aol.com 11) Letter from Americal Gryphon by "John Glaser" 12) Re: Blue Max Sopwith Camel Question by Jeff Wilson 13) RE: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon by "John Glaser" 14) Re: "Customer" relations by Mike Dicianna 15) Re: Americal and the list/Righteous Ire by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 16) Recommendations for Naval hexagonal fabric by "Charles or Linda Duckworth" 17) off topic - T-35 color brown vs green by "Charles or Linda Duckworth" 18) Americal by bucky@ptdprolog.net 19) Re: "Customer" relations by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 20) Re: Americal by bucky@ptdprolog.net 21) 1/28 Decal Finalists by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 22) RE: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon by "Rob." 23) Re: Recommendations for Naval hexagonal fabric by "S.M.Sundberg" 24) Re: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon by KarrArt@aol.com 25) Re: Americal by Zulis@aol.com 26) Re: WTB: Blue Max SPAD VII by mgoodwin@ricochet.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:17:28 -0500 From: "Jim Elkins" To: Subject: News Release - USAF Museum Message-ID: <01bddc1e$1a3a4d40$fd37a497@default> Found on the USAF Museum web page for those with proximity... U.S. AIR FORCE MUSEUM SHOWCASES WORLD WAR I PAINTINGS The United States Air Force Museum presents an exhibition of award-winnin= g World War I aviation paintings by Bill Marsalko during September, October and November 1998 in the Museum=92s Kettering Hall. Featured in these eighteen exciting paintings are the Siements-Schuckert DIII, Hanriot HD1, Albatros DIII, Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe, Sopwith =93Baby,=94 Sopwith Camel F.I, S.E. 5a, S.V.A.5, Plalz D.XII, DeHavilland D.H.4, Bris= tol F.2B Fighter, Fokker D.VII, Fokker DVIII, Hansa Brandenburg W29, Nieuport N.28 C-1, Breguet 14B.2, SPAD XIIIC.I and the Caproni Ca 33. Marsalko is a recognized World War I aviation artist. His paintings have = won Par Excellence Awards at the EAA annual art competitions in Oshkosh, Wisconsin and a Master Artist Award as well. His paintings have been exhibited at the Air and Space Museum in San Dieg= o, California and the Virginia Air and Space Center in Hampton, Virginia. In 1994, Marsalko was honored to receive the World War I Aviation Histori= cal Hall of Fame Award from the late Frank Ryder=92s group at Aerodrome =9294. Bill is a member of the United States Air Force Art Program, the American Society of Aviation Artists and the League of World War I Aviation Historians. The artist resides with his wife in Fairview Park, Ohio a sub= urb of Cleveland. The Air Force Museum is located on Springfield Pike, six miles northeast = of downtown Dayton. It is open seven days a week from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Admission and parking are FREE. For additional information, visit our on-line web site at: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/ NOTE TO MEDIA: For additional information, contact the Air Force Museum Public Affairs Division, Gwendolyn Works at (937) 255-4704, ext 330. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:01:59 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi Subject: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: Having no personal stake in the Great Americal Debate of 1998- I order the catalog from time to time but never get around to ordering- my question is: just what is proper scanner-fodder? Some things are obviously public domain, some not- see Albatros Publications. WW I Aero publishes a lot of stuff - some reprintings of ancient government material while other stuff is newly generated. I have no problem passing along something like the German BBS drawings for example, but when something such as DSA's markings drawings are printed- what then? This spreading of info- it's so easy to wobble back and forth on a path veering from thievery to enthusiastic proselytizing on behalf of our "hobby". I hear the term "fair use"-if it was ok to Xerox a page or two out of a book and give to a friend- why is it different to "give" something electronically? The whole thing is making me reluctant to contribute anything. Libraries-Holy Houses of Knowledge or mere info "laundering" services fencing stolen intellectual goods? In all of this there are legal distinctions as opposed to ethical ones.For instance, I don't know NASM's policy regarding "their" information- is one permitted to freely spread what they generate? In this case, I don't know the legal aspects, but I have no ethical problem spreading "their" stuff just because it is, in a sense, mine. I'm a captive patron of NASM whether I wish to be or not- if I attempt to withhold my financial support, armed goons can come into my life and destroy me. I'm wholeheartedly in favor of private ownership- to the point of fanaticism, but where does this leave old magazine articles, long long out of print- the author may be pleased that his work is being appreciated years after it first appeared, but it is still presumption on our part if we choose to give the work new life. At the moment, I've got a couple of things on hold ready to send to INDIVIDUALS off-list, but I'm reluctant. Finally, Dr. Merrill may be a pointy headed old coot with his own baggage of bigotry, but if his work is being misused, he has right on his side. As long as he doesn't try to stick a probe in my head and extract markings material that I may have inadvertantly picked up from seeing an Americal product, I'll support his right to enjoy the fruits of his considerable labors ( on this point, I'm relying on second hand info- I've never seen an Americal product, so I can't really vouch for the quality of this "fruit"). On the other hand, exercising my freedom, I don't have to buy Amercal. I'll paint my own damn lozenge, and be better for the experience! Oh yes- the original point- what is proper scanner-fodder? Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:06:18 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Subject: "Customer" relations Message-ID: <199809091909.OAA23786@sam.on-net.net> Just a couple of observations. As president/owner of a 23 year old mail order business, I wanted to say that I can understand the frustrations as a business owner. I have not had to protect any copyright infringements other than licensed work that I paid royalties to. I have become a recognized "expert" in my field related to my business, and have given clinics and seminars presenting new information and research. I have never been paid for any of these clinics, studies, etc., but felt it was beneficial to the business and enjoyed doing the research and meeting fellow researchers, who had become good friends. I have shared this research with others in the field, but this was my own decision. They have usually given credit to me when due, and I have had few problems. I have had instances of my work being used in printed articles and no credit being given, but I have tried to get these rectified. There is always the line that has to be drawn between research, (or hobby), and business. There are very few self owned business's that allow you to indulge in hours of study and development, all in the name of business. I am not trying to make a judgement on someone else's business or time, just pointing out the fact. One thing that I am very aware of, is don't alienate your customers. Some don't like to hear, "The customer is always right.", but it's good to keep in mind. I don't want to judge Dr.Merrill's opinions, but I must say that he could have made his point of concern with regards to his copyright infringement, without causing any ill will. Always try to put a good spin on something, approach and resolution can make a potentially bad thing into a good. Do not under estimate the power of negative or positive endorsement by John Q. Public, especially when you may have a "limited" amount of advertising, and word of mouth is one of your main stays. I believe most of us will write off your possible over statement of "electronic play pen" with the understanding of your ongoing frustrations with regard to business and hobby. Sometimes it's best to reread a letter before sending it, or counting to ten before you throw a brick, not that you shouldn't throw it, you will just have a better aim. I wish Dr.Merrill the best of luck and success with his business and personal research and well being. Best Wishes to All, Dave W. (non-perpetrator of Jastagate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:55:37 EDT From: Zulis@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: <51282783.35f6dd39@aol.com> I read Dr.Merrill's letter yesterday, decided to sleep on it, and continue to be equally disturbed by it today. Reading some of the response tells me that others on the list feel as divided as I do. I think few would dispute that, regarding the core issue... the man is right. The tone of the letter... the insults, the demeaning sarcasm, and even the threats, are a different matter entirely. While recognizing that he has decided not to proceed with (for now) the threat to Al and his livelihood, the very suggestion makes me feel physically ill. This makes about as much sense as going after IBM because some of us used IBM computers while doing our postings. Regarding legal action against list members, surely he realizes that these are hollow threats. We are spread over at least a dozen countries around the world and I can assure Mr.Merrill that the RCMP swat teams have better things to do than knock down my door in the vain hopes of finding an illicit copy of a profile from a $12 decal sheet. I will refrain from using copyrighted material because using it would be WRONG, not because of an empty threat to myself or, even worse, a rumbling of revenge upon Al. On a less emotional matter, I think he is mistaken in his assessment re: being on the Internet. I, for one, have often purchased items from someone on the net primarily because they are immediately accessible when I need something. The turnaround time for ordering catalogues, then placing an order by mail, and then finally having it sent, is not consistent with getting things done. Surely, the electronic mail issue can be dealt with by using an order form fomat to discourage emails for routine matters, and some ground rules on what sorts of enquiries he will and will not be able to respond to. However, I fully respect that this is his own business decision to make - just adding my comment. I also have to add that his replacement/credit policy is admirable, as described in the letter. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:05:52 +0200 From: "Tom Werner Hansen" To: Subject: Re: (Off Topic) APMA annual auction and R.E.8 Message-ID: <199809091959.VAA23860@d1o211.telia.com> Shane wrote: > Hi Tom, > > Now I could get very historical & say that the St John Ambulance cross > is not actually a maltese cross as it actually comes from the merchants > of the Republic of Amalfi, who restored the hostel in Jerusalem in > c.1080. but I wouldn't want to crowd the list with non WW1 stuff. :-) > > In answer to your question, I suppose I will in the future build > something with a cross in it, it'll most proberly be a naval cross. As > for balkenkreuze markings I'll leave that to Lorna(who as soon as I > leave for an officers course, gets on the list & starts sprouting off > about size). > > BTW did you know that Valletta derives it name from John de la Valette > a Grand Master of the Order of St John. > > all the best: Shane Of course I do, I didn't visit Malta two summers ago and Rhodes this summer for nothing. Precious little ww1 stuff at Rhodes, though. Hard to find out what went on there under Italian occupation only a few miles from the Turkish coast. Tom (now let's back to the business of kit-bashing. Currently I'm making new wings for my Airfix R.E.8. Casirati's pot method didn't work for me, so I cleaned up the top of the kit wings, added the missing half-ribs in front and made a resin cast of the corrected wing and used that to mold new wings. Fortunately the top and bottom wings were similar, so one mold is enough for both. The results look very nice, thin sharp trailing edges and all. But it's taken hours to do. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:06:13 EDT From: Zulis@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: <21c7dcf2.35f6dfb5@aol.com> Please forgive me... a slip of the finger sent my note before it was complete. continuing.... Having vented about the threats, I am still left with the fact that he is entirely correct about the copyright and the nature of the business that he is involved in. I freely admit that, before the letter, I had no concept of the finances of a "cottage" business and the type of dedication required to keep a marginal one afloat. The sad part of all this, for me, is the direction this has taken. Some of us (and I would have been one of the guilty ones too, had I not been on vacation at the time) did something ill-considered, then the group re-examined its values, and had quite strongly come around to a realization that this was wrong and could not continue. The offer of copies was withdrawn, and to the extent possible, the wrong was corrected. The tone of the letter has damaged the positive outcomes that could have come from a poor start, and that is a shame. My two cents worth, Dave Zulis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:22:11 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Cole Palen's Flying Circus Video Message-ID: <199809092022.QAA21718@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Anyone order the Rhinebeck video titled: "Cole Palen's Flying Circus Video" I'm thinking of getting it and want to know if anyone reccomends it. -Allan =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:36:28 EDT From: Modelhound@aol.com To: wwi Subject: WTB: Blue Max SPAD VII Message-ID: <7a6a44ba.35f6e6cc@aol.com> I am looking to buy an unbuilt and unstarted Blue Max 1/48 SPAD VII. Will pay cash or possible trade. Thank you, Mike Franklin Bellingham, WA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:44:46 -0500 From: "Richard Eaton" To: wwi Subject: Re: Americal and the list Message-ID: <35F6E8BE.62C915C7@dsccc.com> Zulis@aol.com wrote: the group re-examined > its values, and had quite strongly come around to a realization that this was > wrong and could not continue. The offer of copies was withdrawn, and to the > extent possible, the wrong was corrected. The tone of the letter has > damaged the positive outcomes that could have come from a poor start, and that > is a shame. > > My two cents worth, > > Dave Zulis Good point Dave. Guys and Dr. Merrill (I assume you will read this archive at some point.) We all know that there was a technical violation of copyright here. I think all parties realize that it was not malicious. Dr. Merrill got a chance to vent OK? I know emotions are riding high right now i.e. pulling plugs ..... unsubscribing from the list.... not sending in orders..... going out of business..... burning research and materials..... Can we not step back and take a few deep breaths on this issue. Seems like we are doing potentially a lot more damage to our already small niche of a hobby than is necessary given the lack of criminal intent in the original violation. I am a customer of Dr. Merrill's and will continue to be one. I find his products unique and irreplaceable. If he decides to retire from this part time business I don't see anyone coming after him to take his place. I am a member of this list and will continue to be one. I enjoy it very much and would miss it terribly. Just a thought, Regards, Richard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:46:10 EDT From: Modelhound@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Blue Max Sopwith Camel Question Message-ID: I just got the Blue Max 1/48 Sopwith Camel in the mail yeasterday. The instructions state that to build the F1 Camel one should use "only the White plastic parts for the wings, centre section, and fuselage". And to build the 2F1 "only the grey plastic parts for the wings, centre section, and fuselage". In the kit however, I received only the top wing outer sections, centre section and fuselage in grey plastic. Question is, should I have received a set of grey lower wings, or am I supposed to shorten the span of the white lower wings? Thanks, Mike Franklin Bellingham, WA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:42:38 -0500 From: "John Glaser" To: "World War One Modeling List" Subject: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: <000001bddc4b$877e2110$ed404a0c@jg_notebook> I must admit that it didn't take me long to hit the delete button on this one. Indeed, I am one of the guilty co-conspirators in "Jasta-gate." However, if I recall correctly, this transgression was discussed at length on the list and the guilty were truly chastened and admonished regarding real or intended copyright infringement. This showed the ability of our list to maintain and enforce our own standards in this area, without resorting to the idle threats and childish insults heaped collectively upon us by Dr. Merrill. Hopefully we can continue on this path under the leadership of list members such as Messrs. Weier and Wright and not face the prospect of "pulling the plug" on our beloved list. As for the rest of Dr. Merrill's letter, what can we say? It is obvious to me that Dr. Merrill doesn't really enjoy his work. Someone once told me that in order to really excel in your work, you need to truly love what you do. Most successful business owners I know fit this description to a "T". This fact has been lost on Dr. Merrill judged by his description of his business as a chore performed reluctantly rather than a labor of love. Perhaps he would find a business endeavor more to his liking to be more profitable. Second point: You won't go very far in business, particularly in a narrow niche market, by publicly complaining about or insulting your customer base. Since Dr. Merrill eschews more aggressive marketing of his product (internet) and views inquiries of potential customers as a nuisance (e-mail), he is very much dependent upon repeat sales to our small group. I don't know about the rest of you, but referring to me as an unappreciative cave-dweller is not the way you inspire me to spend my hard earned dollars. The sad part is that A/G does produce a superior product that none of us, short of hand painting, can find elsewhere. I shudder to think of attempting my long delayed Gotha project without Dr. Merrill's decals. Will the prospect of a 12-31-99 decal bonfire inspire me to buy now? I don't know. Now before anyone flames me for unsolicited business advice to A/G, let me say that I am a small business (computer consulting) catering to a niche market (construction materials). I know that my clients don't give a hoot about how hard I work or how much I spend to keep my skills current. All they care about is a superior product, superior service at a fair price. If I can't deliver that and make or save them money by what I do - I'm gone. I certainly wouldn't get very far by complaining about lack of appreciation or by insulting them. I understand, and Americal Gryphon should understand, that you are only as successful as your next sale. That's capitalism Dr. Merrill. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:48:52 +1100 From: Jeff Wilson To: wwi Subject: Re: Blue Max Sopwith Camel Question Message-ID: Mike, I have a feeling that you use the white lower wings for both versions (F1 or 2F1). Your kit is complete according to photos I have seen in various reviews. Someone else may know more, but I think the upper wing and fuselage were the main changes from one version to the other. HTH, Jeff Jeffrey Spencer Wilson Photography Unit RSBS Australian National University Acton Canberra ACT 0200 Australia Phone (02) 6249 3635 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:51:37 -0500 From: "John Glaser" To: Subject: RE: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: <000101bddc4c$c8a6c600$ed404a0c@jg_notebook> So Robert, why does every public or academic library I've been in have one or more copiers ready to take your quarters and launder more info? And no doubt placed there with public monies? Quick! Call the ILEA! (Information Laundering Enforcement Administration - just another bunch of armed goons) - Mr. G. > -----Original Message----- > From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of > KarrArt@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 2:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon > > > > > Libraries-Holy Houses of Knowledge or mere info "laundering" > services fencing > stolen intellectual goods? > > Robert K. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:55:39 +0000 From: Mike Dicianna To: wwi Subject: Re: "Customer" relations Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980909165539.006eda50@dnc.net> >Just a couple of observations. >(Big Snip) > I wish Dr.Merrill the best of luck and success with his business and >personal research and well being. >Best Wishes to All, > Dave W. (non-perpetrator of Jastagate) Maybe I should fall on a sword or something, but all this has given me a real bad aftertaste. As probably the main culprit in this whole copywrite mess, I am feeling like doo-doo! Being a relative newcomer to the list, I have not had a lot of time to search the archives on this matter (even if it has come up before) When I first came onto this list, I asked a couple of simple questions about a kit I was building and lo and behold....the wonderful modelers on the list were VERY generous with the information in their libraries. This EXCITED me greatly! Never even thought that there were others out in the real world with a love for WWI aircraft like myself! In this excitement and zeal, I felt that the reciprication of this knowledge was a good thing. It felt good to me to pass on what little information I had in my own holdings. When someone asked for info on the Roland C.II, I could respond...so I did. It just kind of snowballed from there. And one fine day, the word COPYWRITE came accros my computer screen!! I never felt for one minute that this was a concern amoung the friends on the list...I soon found that I was very wrong. I am sure that my intentions here were the same as many other "culprits". It is not like I was planning to "bootleg" decals or write my own book on a aircraft with stolen material!! If Mr. Merrill is out to sue someone....I dont have much, but he can take his best shot at me! I suppose he would have to prove some kind of intent or malice or something, No chance of that.... Would he have to show that I have wrongly made some kind of profit due to the CRIME....no chance of that (Just ask my VISA Card!!) I am still left with one big problem....I have a 1/28th scale DR.1 that needs his set of decals....I guess I could just hand paint the markings.... Like Nigel, I have been fighting with the prospect of unsubscribing from the list (In disgrace in my case...) But alas, I still love the hobby and have a closet full of kits waiting to be built.....can't do it alone....I still NEED you all!! Looking forward to a few sleepless nights! > > > Mikedc "Der Rote Modellflugzeugbauer" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:29:48 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: Americal and the list/Righteous Ire Message-ID: <35F71D7C.2017@ricochet.net> Richard Eaton wrote: > We all know that there was a technical violation of copyright here. I > think all parties realize that it was not malicious. Dr. Merrill got >achance to vent OK? I think Mr. Eaton has summed up the most important part of this whole fracas with his last sentence. Maybe Dr. Merrill was overly harsh. OK, but maybe some of us (sorta) had it coming. I'm not morally posturing or reemphasizing blame. I'm merely suggesting that (perhaps) Dr. Merrill is entitled to some righteous ire. He's only human, like the rest of us, and if I discovered someone had "published" or used some of my research without permission, I'd be more than a little angry too. I might not even be very discriminate in my wrath. I'm probably not one of the more sensitive (or even always polite) members of this list, but I'll not be offended by Merrill's words, and they will not discourage me from possibly doing business with him in the future. If I was bothered by strong opinions or 'venting', I'd have bailed from this list the first time Sandy gave his interesting opinions of we-all-know-who (which I often find rather entertaining, BTW). Although scathing and maybe even hostile, I think the doctor was entitled to his editorial. Aside from the legal entanglements, there is a very real possibilty that the incident may have cost him some sales. And I don't think Dr. Merrill's frustration should be misinterpreted as chronic dissatisfaction with his business and research. If he didn't enjoy what he was doing, I hardly think he would have persisted for nearly 16 years through the course of at least two partnerships. I think we are all damned lucky to have an individual who has catered to our specific small and dusty corner of the hobby market with such a high quality product for so long, despite the slings and arrows. If it weren't for him and others like him, we'd have had a LOT more work cut out for us. I can only reiterate Richard's sage sentiments and suggest that we not take this unfortunate episode and subsequent castigation too seriously, continue the exchange of ideas, information, opinions (and occasional bad humor), but at the same time be careful with those copyrighted materials. The best any of us can do is to live & learn. FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:41:51 -0500 From: "Charles or Linda Duckworth" To: "ww1list" Subject: Recommendations for Naval hexagonal fabric Message-ID: <199809100044.TAA06937@mail.primary.net> Copper State and Americal both offer a 1/48th sets of Naval Hexagonal fabric, has anyone compared the two as to colors, thiness and ease of use and it so which do you prefer. Believe Copper States are made by Microscale. Charlie. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:47:59 -0500 From: "Charles or Linda Duckworth" To: "ww1list" Subject: off topic - T-35 color brown vs green Message-ID: <199809100044.TAA06944@mail.primary.net> Well, if you read my posting on the colors of the T-35 five turreted tank one would immediately load the airbrush and spray it 'protective brown', well....I received the following from Erik stating the color was an olive green so I wanted to pass this along so I did not mislead anyone. The Russians did use brown but according to Erik and other research it was a 'mean green machine'. Charlie > Actually, Matt Bittner and I followed that thread with interest, as > we have a web site dedicated to WWII Soviet Air Force matters, and > because Matt builds armor. It turns out that Cookie's interpretation > of what Zaloga had said was not entirely on the mark, and Zaloga > subsequently confirmed what I was going to offer. That is, that the > Protective Brown olive-ochre color was somewhat experimental and not > widely applied, and not the standard finish on any Soviet armor. > Indeed as with Soviet Army aircraft of the period, the standard > finish on tanks was an olive color known as AMT-4. This color, as > with all virtually all olive shades, changed and darkened with age > and exposure. The range that I have established for AMT-4, from > factory new to old and darkened, is FS (2)4259 to (3)4095. > This color range agrees well with M.Baryatinski and M.Pavlov in > their 'Arsenal' series on the T-28 tank. They have out a number of > titles on Soviet tanks, but this is the one that I have seen. > > Anyway, that's my .02 on the matter-- best of luck with the > wonderful T-35! > Cheers, Erik > ------------------------------------------------- > "It is because Nations tend to stupidity and > baseness that mankind moves so slowly; it is > because individuals have a capacity for better > things that it moves at all." G.R. Gissing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:47:18 -0400 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Americal Message-ID: <35F72196.E75353BF@ptdprolog.net> Well, here's my two cents worth. One of the first lessons I learned as a lawwyer was to never write anything you intended to send to someone when you were angry. My partner has a nice technique....dictate a nasty letter in which you spew forth all of your venom, have the secretary type it up, read it and then throw it away. Venting helps and you don't alienate the person you intended to mail it to. Having said that, I still will order stuff from Americal and at the risk of pushing the point, anyone know the # for the 56 Sq. stuff in 1/48 and the price per sheet? Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:41:18 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: "Customer" relations Message-ID: <35F7202E.4E33@ricochet.net> Mike Dicianna wrote: > I am still left with one big problem....I have a 1/28th scale DR.1 that needs > his set of decals....I guess I could just hand paint the markings.... No problem. Although I'd encourage you to forgive & forget (just go ahead and order the damn decals!), failing that, I've still got a couple unclaimed sets of 1/28 decals of Lt. Raben's white bird for his red and white Jasta 18 Dr.I. No insignia, but these are the later straight crosses, which may be easily masked or made from b&w decal sripes. FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:55:09 -0400 From: bucky@ptdprolog.net To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Americal Message-ID: <35F7236D.F8A61610@ptdprolog.net> Er...the second thing I learned was the correct way to spell lawyer. Hanging my head in shame and desperately looking for the spell check button, Mike Muth bucky@ptdprolog.net wrote: > Well, here's my two cents worth. One of the first lessons I learned > as a lawwyer was to never write anything you intended to send to someone > when you were angry. My partner has a nice technique....dictate a nasty > letter in which you spew forth all of your venom, have the secretary > type it up, read it and then throw it away. Venting helps and you don't > alienate the person you intended to mail it to. Having said that, I > still will order stuff from Americal and at the risk of pushing the > point, anyone know the # for the 56 Sq. stuff in 1/48 and the price per > sheet? > Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:51:50 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: 1/28 Decal Finalists Message-ID: <35F722A6.58B8@ricochet.net> These are as follows: Steve Perry claimed a Guynemer's SPAD set, Ira Campbell and Paul Gabert claimed the Von Wedel sets, and Mike Dicianna will soon be able to build Cobby's Camel in bloody huge scale. All of the lucky winners (with the exception of Paul) are instructed to e-mail me your current addresses off-list. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:17:59 +0000 From: "Rob." To: wwi Subject: RE: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: <199809100111.VAA26056@cliff.concentric.net> Though probably not the Robert addressed, I'll speak up. The answer is that under US law, information is free. The form of the information is not. Copyright is not, as is sometimes claimed, "intellectual property." It is a limited monopoly granted by the people for the purpose of encouraging people like Dr. Merrill to do original writing and artwork. They get EXCLUSIVE rights to their own work for a fixed period. In exchange, the public gets free use of the information. I can make my own drawings, decals, and historical articles on the basis of Dr. Merrill's copyrighted publications. I just can't copy his. There is one exception to the copyright holder's exclusivity: fair use. Fair use is not a hard and fast category. It is really a common- sense principle. You can copy short pieces of a copyrighted work (short being relative to the length of the whole) for personal research, scholarship or review, provided that the copying does not do substantive harm to the copyright holder's ability to make money on his creation. It is also probably fair use to copy out-of-print and otherwise unobtainable material for personal use (out-of-copyright material can be copied freely). This fair use is what library copiers are for. Note that the use that Dr. Merrill objected to fails the fair use on several grounds: 1. It involved copying of all or most of the work. 2. The copying was done for distribution to others (not for personal use). Copying for distribution is NEVER fair use according to the sources I have consulted. 3. The copying deprived Americal of a significant portion of its earnings, given the size of the firm. 4. The material was in print and readily available for pitifully little more than the cost of production. Copying to avoid buying the original is also NEVER fair use. Another list member asked suggested that intent would have to be proved in an infringement action. Wrong! It's the copyist's duty to be sure the material is out of copyright or that the copying is a fair use. ALL material is copyrighted from the moment it is created until the copyright expires, unless the author expressly places the material in the public domain. So, while intent might aggravate the offense, it can't mitigate it. The same person suggested that he would have to have profited to be guilty. This is true, but in the eyes of the law he did profit--by getting the material in a way that deprived Americal of its rightful fee. This isn't stealing per se (copyright is not property, so violations are not thefts). But it is still illegal, injurious to others, and ultimately injurious to the hobby and to scholarship. Much more material would be available for less money IF anyone could make a living at WW1 decals, books, and art. We should be glad that some, at least can make a go of it. My advice is, just learn the rules and be fair to others. Don't sulk. Don't try to self-justify. Don't resent Merrill for exercising his rights as you would in the same circumstance. Just don't infringe copyrights. Then, if it doesn't happen again, we can all forget about it. > So Robert, why does every public or academic library I've been in have one > or more copiers ready to take your quarters and launder more info? And no > doubt placed there with public monies? Quick! Call the ILEA! (Information > Laundering Enforcement Administration - just another bunch of armed goons) > > - Mr. G. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of > > KarrArt@aol.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 2:05 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon > > > > > > > > > > Libraries-Holy Houses of Knowledge or mere info "laundering" > > services fencing > > stolen intellectual goods? > > > > Robert K. > > > > > Rob To e-mail me, replace the l with the numeral 1. Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:19:30 -0600 From: "S.M.Sundberg" To: wwi Subject: Re: Recommendations for Naval hexagonal fabric Message-ID: <35F73731.5C2@netins.net> Charles or Linda Duckworth wrote: > > Copper State and Americal both offer a 1/48th sets of Naval Hexagonal > fabric, has anyone compared the two as to colors, thiness and ease of use > and it so which do you prefer. Believe Copper States are made by > Microscale. > > Charlie. A/G comes in a full sheet of about 6 strips. One was enough to cover a W.29 in 1/48. It had two different "tones", the earlier blue brown and the later dark blue/light blue. Went down well, easy to match the edges. The Copperstates is the dark blue/light blue in one rectangular sheet. Went down well. I used the A/G on the W.29 to get the earlier brown/blue for the prototype #2204. the Copper States came with the Dornier D.I. and also worked well. Take your pick, there's not much to choose. Steve S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:14:12 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: What info IS OK? wasRe: Letter from Americal Gryphon Message-ID: <1bd97e30.35f727e4@aol.com> In a message dated 98-09-09 19:51:58 EDT, you write: << So Robert, why does every public or academic library I've been in have one or more copiers ready to take your quarters and launder more info? And no doubt placed there with public monies? Quick! Call the ILEA! (Information Laundering Enforcement Administration - just another bunch of armed goons) - Mr. G. >> Great question! Carrying this through, it does make a library guilty- they're offering someone elses property with out compensation. Yet libraries also provide certain markets that otherwise wouldn't exist. Arcane reference books for instance.It all really does seem to come down to individual judgement calls. If I copy an entire book and distribute it to a large group- obviously wrong. A page or two to a person or two? Maybe, maybe not. Geez, my head hurts. As a creator of copyrighted images, I wrestle with this stuff. Personally, I'm pretty easy if someone justs asks nicely to use my work, depending on what THEIR plans are. Now, my original question- what should be considered legitimate copying? Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:16:50 EDT From: Zulis@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Americal Message-ID: <8df122db.35f72882@aol.com> In a message dated 98-09-09 20:50:07 EDT, you write: << at the risk of pushing the point, anyone know the # for the 56 Sq. stuff in 1/48 and the price per sheet? Mike Muth >> The 1/48 is sheet #144... sorry, dont know the price. BTW...there is a review of this sheet on the current "Chandelle". Dave Z ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:13:01 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: WTB: Blue Max SPAD VII Message-ID: <35F7279D.194D@ricochet.net> Modelhound@aol.com wrote: > > I am looking to buy an unbuilt and unstarted Blue Max 1/48 SPAD VII. You & me both. I might settle for a started one, though. It's barely possible that Chris Gannon (Mr. Pegasus/Blue Max) still has a few of these lying around. They were around $30 US incl. postage (?) Sandy (another list member across the pond) will be able to fill in the details or maybe point you in another direction. Sandy? FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1202 **********************