WWI Digest 1181 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: What got you started in WWI modeling by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 2) Re: Struts (soldering iron) by "Peter Crow" 3) Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE by "David R.L. Laws" 4) Re: Re Shon Howell by "David R.L. Laws" 5) RE: New Kits by "John C Glaser" 6) RE: New Kits by Shane Weier 7) Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE by "David R.L. Laws" 8) RE: New Kits by "John C Glaser" 9) RE: New Kits by Shane Weier 10) Re: Billy Bishop web page by "cameron rile" 11) How to sign on -for Cam by Shane Weier 12) Re Shon Howell by Dave Watts 13) RE: Billy Bishop web page by Shane Weier 14) RE: Billy Bishop web page by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 15) Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE by "Sandy Adam" 16) Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page by "Sandy Adam" 17) Off-topic humour by "Sandy Adam" 18) Re: Off-topic humour by Don RInker 19) RE: Off-topic humour by "Denest, Michael J" 20) Re: How to sign on -for Cam by "cameron rile" 21) Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page by "cameron rile" 22) Off Topic (PT-19 Crash) by "Denest, Michael J" 23) Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page by "Sandy Adam" 24) Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page by "Sandy Adam" 25) RE: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page by "Denest, Michael J" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:17:45 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: What got you started in WWI modeling Message-ID: <35E49799.5A0E@ricochet.net> The second part of this (what got me back into WWI) was an article in Aviation History about the Monino Sopwith Tripe (N5486) and its obscure service history. Apparently, Lt. Marion "Bunny" Aten (of El Centro, CA) drove it down near Tsaritsyn while flying a Camel with No. 47 Squadron in 1919. This lead me to seek out his fascinating memoir, "Last Train Over Rostov Bridge", which is the Dr. Zhivago-like story of his adventures in South Russia with Collishaw and No. 47. An obsession was orn. Later, I discovered Ira "Taffy" Jones' book, An Air Fighter's scrapbook, which detailed the R.A.F.'s ops in North Russia. I'm currently seeking Collishaw's Air Command through the Library, but it is exceedingly rare. All of these gents were knocking about Russia in leftover/surplus WWI aircraft, so I naturallly became re-enamored of the old stringbags. FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:52:55 PDT From: "Peter Crow" To: wwi Subject: Re: Struts (soldering iron) Message-ID: <19980826235255.20181.qmail@hotmail.com> > >All good stuff. Regarding shrinking sprue to tighten the rigging, I >have found that a small soldering iron works much better than candles >and hot needles. I'm not talking about the fancy soldering guns, which >would be difficult to wield in a confined space, but the cheap variety >($7.99) shaped much like a very fat pencil. (It works on WWII biplanes >as well...) > >Dave Fletcher It works well for me also, except for the time I sneezed while holding it between bays.... Peter Crow > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:16:04 +0000 From: "David R.L. Laws" To: wwi Subject: Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE Message-ID: <35E54E04.5FE7@webtime.com.au> Thanks Allen ! Not having been instructed in a case like this before I must plead ignorance of even our Postal-Telecommunications Legislation as it relates to e-mail - Hopefully your government has addressed it and the Post Office can act. REGARDS DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:27:26 +0000 From: "David R.L. Laws" To: wwi Subject: Re: Re Shon Howell Message-ID: <35E550AE.2B5F@webtime.com.au> PHILLIP Thanks for doing the spade-work mate ! I owe you ( another !! ) one Well we know he's there, perhaps someone should send him a galvanising wake up call ... and I think I know a bloke who might just oblige ... BUT IN THE MEANTIME ... The elusive Mr Howell has replied pleading QUOTE " comical and embarrassing reasons for the delay " UNQUOTE (and silence ) - Promises to SEND this Friday I only wish I knew a copper ( policeman ) over there to call on him at home and see if the guy is actually MOVING HOUSE on Friday BTW would your Postal Office keep records of someone sending an item by post that might be traceable through a central ( City - Area ) computer based system ? In the meantime will keep y'all up-dated REGARDS DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:45:03 -0500 From: "John C Glaser" To: Subject: RE: New Kits Message-ID: <000601bdd164$b1121910$f011820a@johng-home> Had to pry the issue from my son's fingers due to a F-14 thingie on the cover, but here ya go: Eduard: Nieuport 17 Albatros Dr1 Flashback W.29 Copper State Halberstadt CL.IV Pfalz D.XII Fokker D.V T C Models Vimy Issue also has a workbench review on the Aeroclub F.2B and a nice article nearly on topic on the George Dade collection at the Cradle of Aviation Museum under construction on Long Island. Also a Airfix Hannover CL.IIIa (Bittner scale) in the Reader Gallery with hand painted lozenge. But not rigged. Why go to the effort to hand paint the loz but not rig? - Mr. G. > -----Original Message----- > From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of > Patrick Padovan > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 3:17 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: New Kits > > > Hey, Alberto! So, like, make with the details, okay? > > Sheesh! > Patrick > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Patrick Padovan > e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Alberto Rada wrote: > > > Hi > > > > Just have a look in October Fine Scale Modeler column New Kit Report, > > out of 9 new kits mentioned, SEVEN are WWI ( YESSSS ) > > > > SALUDOS > > > > Alberto > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:05:48 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: New Kits Message-ID: <199808270322.NAA18653@mimmon.mim.com.au> Johns list below: >Eduard: > Nieuport 17 > Albatros Dr1 >Flashback W.29 >Copper State > Halberstadt CL.IV > Pfalz D.XII > Fokker D.V >T C Models Vimy ...gives a fair idea how far ahead of the game the list is able to be, or how far behind FSM has fallen. FWIW I have the Nie17, Alb Dr.I, W.29 and Fokker D.V in my hands already in far off Australia, and have seen reviews of the remaining Copper State and TC kits in the Windsock issue which came out in July. Emphatically NOT a slam of FSM who can only work with what they get, but a recommendation of the speed and accuracy of new kit reportage in this forum Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:27:44 +0000 From: "David R.L. Laws" To: wwi Subject: Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE Message-ID: <35E55ED1.5D24@webtime.com.au> Martin Your thoughts on this subject were fair and reasonable with the information I had laid before you all ... I didn't mention the increasingly strident tone I found myself being compelled to adopt in E-mails which went completely unanswered when I knew that he was answering others but not me. I really started to get to the " burn the witch " stage ( and Martin. I think and accept your words are indeed a very fair description of about the point I had reached too ) when I checked with my Bankers and found that the Cheque ( check ) I had sent had been cashed sometime ago. The Law makes one cynical - I think however that when you deal with people who are or represent themselves as fellow hobbists and modellers or who like Barry are in the business of supplying ( and in Barry's case really servicing ) our needs we are all of us pretty trusting ... Mainly because everyone you meet is so thoroughly down-right nice and decent ! But when Pavolov's Dog got the sound of the Bell in his ears - this old Mutt couldn't help it - It looked and smelled crook and I was not going to sit back and get burned in bovine silence nor expose my friends to a risk I genuinely thought MIGHT exist by standing by and saying nothing If this sounds like a Manifesto it's not supposed to be anything like it - Martin was being fair with what he knew - I was just trying to keep it a little low key but suggest care be taken REGARDS AND THANKS AGAIN TO ALL DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:28:52 -0500 From: "John C Glaser" To: Subject: RE: New Kits Message-ID: <000701bdd16a$d0277fb0$f011820a@johng-home> But press coverage nevertheless. I say the more the better! More buyers = more kits! So Hooray! for FSM. - Mr. G. > -----Original Message----- > From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of > Shane Weier > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 10:09 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: RE: New Kits > > > Johns list below: > > >Eduard: > > Nieuport 17 > > Albatros Dr1 > >Flashback W.29 > >Copper State > > Halberstadt CL.IV > > Pfalz D.XII > > Fokker D.V > >T C Models Vimy > > ..gives a fair idea how far ahead of the game the list is able to be, > or how far behind FSM has fallen. > > FWIW I have the Nie17, Alb Dr.I, W.29 and Fokker D.V in my hands already > in far off Australia, and have seen reviews of the remaining Copper > State and TC kits in the Windsock issue which came out in July. > Emphatically NOT a slam of FSM who can only work with what they get, but > a recommendation of the speed and accuracy of new kit reportage in this > forum > > Shane > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:42:37 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: New Kits Message-ID: <199808270400.OAA18882@mimmon.mim.com.au> John, >But press coverage nevertheless. I say the more the better! More buyers = >more kits! So Hooray! for FSM. I have no quibble with this whatever. Experience suggests that the sight of finished models in contests also improves the chances that other modellers will build some of them. On the subject of coverage, at the moment Scale Models International (from the UK) is the champion non-specialist publication without a doubt. About 6 pages of WW1 coverage every second month, reviews, profiles, roughish plans (useful to those without datafiles anway) and even fairly frequent front page exposure adds up to the best WW1 coverage since one RL Rimmell was the editor of that mag Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:33:09 -0300 From: "cameron rile" To: wwi Subject: Re: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808262041553@cameron.prontomail.com> yeh that billy bishop site began as a post on the www.theaerodrome.com forum board , with pro mannock historians and pro bishop historians ( Al Lowe being one of the pro bishop ) , has been fascinating to read the posts that have been going back and forth , ( ie they havent been flames , but more a look at what i found ) It started with a doubt cast on the info about mannocks kills , the first referance found was arch whitehouse quoting ira taffy jones as saying mannock had 73 , Al dug deeper and found the brit military upped mannocks score from 61 to 73 after the war in an official revue , the current thinking seems to be , the brits didnt want a colonial topping the list ( ie , seen as bad form ) , then there was the movie which prompted a candian senate inquiry into billy bishop and the movie , all fascinating stuff , and Al has been researching well . ill be checking it each week to see what else he digs up :) on another note , could someone please mail me the keywords for someone not on the list to join the list please? a friend was asking me for info on 1/72 Be2 kits and i professed ignorance , but told him about this list. would appreciate if anyone could mail me the keywords needed. thanx cam Visit my homepage at http://www.prontomail.com/Prontomail/users/cameron ______________________________________________________________ Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:04:33 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: How to sign on -for Cam Message-ID: <199808270421.OAA18998@mimmon.mim.com.au> Cam, Doing this on list to save everyone doing it off list send a message to wwi-request@pease1.sr.unh.edu with the following text subscribe wwi and no subject line. (The bit where it says the new user just writes his/her name without the <> by the way) Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:39:50 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Subject: Re Shon Howell Message-ID: <199808270442.XAA09934@sam.on-net.net> I will make this short, since the Shon trading affects so few. For whatever it is worth, Shon called me today. I have never met him, or talked to him before. I know him only from correspondence via the Internet. He was very apologetic for not getting the various books to me that I had purchased. He explained that he had packed up all the books, (most going to a gent in Australia, and myself), and had placed the books in a friend's car for transport to the post office. Things transpired, and his friend forgot to go to the post office, and actually forgot about the boxes entirely. The friend took a week or so trip to Tyler, TX. to see some friends, and the books went with him. He assures me that the books are on the way, and I should see them by Monday or Tuesday. I told him that I had been so busy with business conventions, etc. that the books had not crossed my mind in the past month, and I was not concerned in the least. He relaxed, and we chatted about various WWI subjects such as the different color controversies involving the Phoenix Berg fabric. I inquired if he had needed the money, and therefore that was reason for selling all of his goodies. He said that he had xeroxed all of what he felt was interesting to him, and had no reason to keep them. He also had mentioned that he had purchased all of this from a Tom Roth?, (I can't remember), before he had died. So what does all this mean.....nothing. He is a guy that is interested in WWI aviation, but that doesn't mean he's a good guy. I guess the point is that I was not worried in the least, and he called me on his own, and if he was a downright scoundrel, he wouldn't have called, unless he's a clever downright scoundrel. Best Wishes to All, Dave W. PS:I believe that I heard somewhere that the Interstate Commerce Division is no longer in operation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:53:46 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808270510.PAA19315@mimmon.mim.com.au> Cam posts: >yeh that billy bishop site began as a post on the www.theaerodrome.com >forum board , with pro mannock historians and pro bishop historians >( Al Lowe being one of the pro bishop ) , has been fascinating to read >the posts that have been going back and forth , >( ie they havent been flames , but more a look at what i found ) Have had a look myself and read some of the discussion. Frankly, there is a terrible lot of old cobblers being discussed, and "references" seem to relate more to wartime propaganda than reality. Some of the protagonists should read a competent and recent history and the whole business would likely subside I'm emphatically on the side of sandy when it comes to being bored about MvR but this quote, taken from one of the arguments....... "Richtofen, the greatest German ace, shot down 80, and was known to claim planes which were merely damaged and force-landed as definate victories. He was also in the habit of claiming victories won by his own pupils." .....is a lot of tosh. The letter it came from claims that the great Mannock (and he *was* great, and doesn't need inflated claims) had probably shot down 98 victims, but skates over the likelihood that many were "Out of Control" claims which were considered victories by the Brits and not by anyone else. My advice to anyone interested is that the members of this list know a lot more of the history than my reading in that forum suggests the posters there know Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:57:40 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: RE: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808270557.WAA08311@ednet1.orednet.org> Shane writes: >Have had a look myself and read some of the discussion. Frankly, there >is a terrible lot of old cobblers being discussed, and "references" seem >to relate more to wartime propaganda than reality. Some of the >protagonists should read a competent and recent history and the whole >business would likely subside >I'm emphatically on the side of sandy when it comes to being bored about >MvR but this quote, taken from one of the arguments....... >"Richtofen, the greatest German ace, shot down 80, and was known to >claim planes which were >merely damaged and force-landed as definate victories. He was also in >the habit of claiming victories >won by his own pupils." >....is a lot of tosh. The letter it came from claims that the great >Mannock (and he *was* great, and doesn't need inflated claims) had >probably shot down 98 victims, but skates over the likelihood that many >were "Out of Control" claims which were considered victories by the >Brits and not by anyone else. It is, indeed, not only a lot of "tosh" (a down-underism which I assume translates to the equivelent of "horse puckey"), but it is a great big manure wagon of "tosh"! Mannock's "official" total is 61. The oft credited number of 73 was created post-war by unofficial biographers who created the higher total (conveniently one more than Bishop's "official" total) out of some highly suspect evidence. Most, if not all, of these post-war created "victories" are misreadings of the records, intentional or otherwise, or "double counting" of official confirmed victories. How anyone could come up with 25 additional victories for Mannock, save by loosening the criteria beyond all recognition, is beyond me - applying those standards, MvR probably had 140 "victories"! That being said, it does appear that Mannock's 61 "official" victories hold up quite well under historical scrutiny - as Christopher Shores, et al, point out in their book "Over the Trenches", a remarkably high percentage of Mannock's "official" victories can be correlated, with some degree of confidence, with known German losses. Indeed, even Mannock's OOC claims seem to correspond with a higher than usual percentage of verifiable German loses. Of course, an appreciable portion of Mannock's "official" victories are "shared" - a practice which was not allowed under the German system. >My advice to anyone interested is that the members of this list know a >lot more of the history than my reading in that forum suggests the >posters there know Indeed! Mannock's memory doesn't need this sort of "tosh". Now Billy Bishop .... well, don't get me started on Bishop! :-) Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "Everything would have been calm in Franche Comte if ten lawyers had been hanged." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:22:03 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE Message-ID: <199808271006.LAA16995@beryl.sol.co.uk> FWIW, I sent him an e-mail on 18th August asking if he still had any Windsocks left. Back came the reply within the hour saying "Sorry, they're all gone" If he were a crook I think he would have suckered me for all he could. My 2d (old Sterling - the real tuppence!) Sandy ---------- > From: Martin Soilleux-Cardwell > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: SHON HOWELL - UPDATE > Date: 26 August 1998 15:16 > > Hi all. > > I was going to just send this to David as he asked for input offline. > However since everyone seems to be so keen to cry "witch - burn! burn!" on > Mr Howell, I decided to put my tuppence in public. > > Martin > > >David, you wrote: > > > >>Bad news I'm afraid > >> > >>E-mails still go unanswered and I now have delivery of goods ordered and > >>paid for the same day my cheque to Mr Howell went out through from > >>Canada - > >> > >>I thinks a few on the list are from Texas - If there's anyone from the > >>San Antonio area could they contact me off-List - I'd like to see if the > >>phone Number I have for this cove is genuine - We also have a prosecutor > >>based in Texas on the list ( Mike ! ) If Mr Howell proves to be > >>accepting money for goods he doesn't have or is not going to part with I > >>would be prepared to press criminal charges and wonder what the > >>appropriate procedure is on your side of the water. > >> > >>A Message off-list on both the above would be greatly appreciated > >> > >>If anyone has ordered goods which have been delivered I be mightily > >>reassured to know that > >> > > Early on (like a month ago) I contacted Shon when he advertised a whole > bunch of Windsock volumes. We briefly haggled over price but it was too > expensive for me. > > A few days later it was mentioned from a second source that he had a whole > bunch of datafiles for sale. I wanted a lot of them and offered him a great > deal for these datafiles plus some of the windsocks. > > He came back within 24 hours to say the datafiles were all sold. > > End of negotiations. > > Points to note from this: > > 1) At no time did Shon chase me for money or prompt me to reply, send him an > order, etc, etc. He was completely passive and re-active in our negotiations. > > 2) It was third parties who read the usenet groups who advertised his goods > for sale in the WWI modelling list. Not Shon himself. > > 3) If Shon was a crook would he have said "they are all sold" after I > offered him a several hundred dollar deal for the combined windsock and > datafile collection? > > I infer from all this that Shon is not a crook or prospective crook but may > be inundated by email, may simply delete emails after his sale is complete > (so ignoring yours and others) or he may simply be on vacation. > > I think he is genuine. > > Martin > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:07:15 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808271006.LAA16998@beryl.sol.co.uk> > > It is, indeed, not only a lot of "tosh" (a down-underism which I assume > translates to the equivelent of "horse puckey"), but it is a great big > manure wagon of "tosh"! As is this whole pointless circular argument about who shot down more than who else. There is no point in applying revisionism to the victory tallies generally accepted as you can prove almost anything you want. For example, why don't we apply "home" and "away" scores to victories achieved over friendly or hostile territory - we do this in soccer matches - this would put about 35 Allied Aces ahead of old Reichspudding. Why not give double for shooting down an Ace and half for a novice. 100 points for a Zeppelin? What about nul-point if the other guy funks it and lands and surrenders? How do you compare a "score" of 1 kill for Immelmann over a defenceless Quirk as the same "value" as Pithey and Rhodes in their RE8 shooting down one of the Fokker D.VII's or Pfalz D.III's that they got? You don't. You can't. You accept that certain fairly arbitrary score tables have been made up which will be of little use - and probably highly misleading - in comparing the actual achievements of the individuals concerned. Within that you can then discover all sorts of errors and inconsistencies and regard them as interesting. I've never heard of "horse puckey", but it sounds as if it approximates to Old Tosh in the great scheme of things - and that describes this whole business of which Ace had the biggest willy, exactly. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:13:48 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: "AAA - WW1 Group" Subject: Off-topic humour Message-ID: <199808271113.MAA19302@beryl.sol.co.uk> I'd heard this before but just saw it in print in George Murdoch's latest Armchair Auctions catalogue (- WW1 reason for including it here!). I'm sure the Canadian members of the list at least will enjoy it if they haven't seen it before. Sandy Transcript of a Radio Conversation between a US Naval Ship and the Canadian Authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October 1995. Americans Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision. Canadians Recommend that you divert your course 15 degrees South to avoid a collision. Americans This is the Captain of a US Navy ship, I say again divert your course. Canadians No, I say again divert your course. Americans This is the Aircraft Carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest warship in the United States Atlantic Fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that you change your course 15 degrees North. That's one five degrees North, or counter measures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship. Canadians This is a lighthouse. Your call......... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:39:19 -0400 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Off-topic humour Message-ID: <35E54566.137F@fast.net> Sandy Adam wrote: > Americans > This is the Aircraft Carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest warship in the > United States Atlantic Fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three > cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that you change your course > 15 degrees North. That's one five degrees North, or counter measures will > be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship. > > Canadians > This is a lighthouse. Your call......... Shoulda Nuked that smartass lighthouse.. Yeah, That's the ticket..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:55:45 -0400 From: "Denest, Michael J" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Off-topic humour Message-ID: <31E6187EA8D0D111ACFE00805FE643DC74AF20@xch-phl-06.he.boeing.com> That's exactly what Bill Clinton would have done! Mike > ---------- > From: Don RInker[SMTP:drinker@fast.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 1998 7:41 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Off-topic humour > > Sandy Adam wrote: > > > Americans > > This is the Aircraft Carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest warship > in the > > United States Atlantic Fleet. We are accompanied by three > destroyers, three > > cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that you change your > course > > 15 degrees North. That's one five degrees North, or counter measures > will > > be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship. > > > > Canadians > > This is a lighthouse. Your call......... > > Shoulda Nuked that smartass lighthouse.. Yeah, That's the ticket..... > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:51:59 -0300 From: "cameron rile" To: wwi Subject: Re: How to sign on -for Cam Message-ID: <199808270758394@cameron.prontomail.com> Thanx shane , i appreciate it , also appreciate this lists patience as well :) cam Visit my homepage at http://www.prontomail.com/Prontomail/users/cameron ______________________________________________________________ Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:00:26 -0300 From: "cameron rile" To: wwi Subject: Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808270807064@cameron.prontomail.com> I never knew any controversy existed so this to me is all new , i am relatively new to this historian hobby anyway and i dont have 1 / 1000000 of the referances u guys have but after reading your last posts to the list i will look at any of the posts at the aerodrome on this subject with suspician. I thought all that was ratified and standardised 70 years ago. Also didnt realise there would be a senate inquiry over a movie either. One thing though , why did those historians and their sloppy work bump up Mannocks tally then? nationalism? just quoting the last guys numbers without bothering to check? does anyone have a strong opinion on it? cam Visit my homepage at http://www.prontomail.com/Prontomail/users/cameron ______________________________________________________________ Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:50:52 -0400 From: "Denest, Michael J" To: "'WW1 Mailing list'" Subject: Off Topic (PT-19 Crash) Message-ID: <31E6187EA8D0D111ACFE00805FE643DC74AF27@xch-phl-06.he.boeing.com> > This message is for our list members in England. I would like to get > some information if possible on the crash of a Fairchild PT-19 that > was > attending a Moth rally. I do not know the location of the event but > if > some one is aware of this please reply off list. TIA > > Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:20:33 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808271621.RAA01960@beryl.sol.co.uk> There are two views you can subscribe to Cam: 1. The Germans were lovely people who were forced into invading Belgium and France to pre-empt somebody else doing it to them. In this view the Lufstreitkraefte was manned by incredibly handsome and courageous men who fought tenaciously against overwhelming Allied numbers and whose every move was the stuff of heroism. In this view Manfred von Richthofen was a saint and Billy Bishop, Rene Fonck and Mick Mannock were egotistical tally counters who either bumped up their claims themselves or had them bumped up by their friends. or:- 2. The Germans were ruthless militaristic bastards who raped and pillaged Belgium and France to catch up in the imperialistic territorial race in which they had been left behind in the previous century. They carried out acts of the utmost barbarism against prisoners and civilians on land and sea and had to be stopped. Fortunately the Lufstreitskraefte was smaller than the Allied Air Forces which dictated that they fought a generally defensive war. This meant that most of their victory claims could be easily verified as they were visible by ground forces and often the victim fell in "home ground" Conversely, many allied victories took place far behind enemy lines where verification was difficult and claims were often imprecise. Consider that inflicting exactly the same damage on two planes behind German lines could have the Hun gliding to safety, but the British pilot gliding to POW status as a "kill" - you will see the inherent stupidity of the victory tallies. This also explains why stati such as O-O-C were employed by the British to give some sort of record of success which was otherwise unverifiable. To proponents of the first viewpoint this is of course designed to allow perfidious Albion to overclaim against the poor outnumbered Aryan heroes. The 3rd and probably most sensible route is to accept that it was a War. As such, reason went out the window. Just enjoy the wonderful flowering of aviation under extreme conditions and the fantastic choice of subjects it gave us modellers to test our skills on. Sandy ---------- > From: cameron rile > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page > Date: 27 August 1998 08:16 > > I never knew any controversy existed so this to me is all new , i am relatively new to this historian hobby anyway and i dont have 1 / 1000000 of the referances u guys have but after reading your last posts to the list i will look at any of the posts at the aerodrome on this subject with suspician. I thought all that was ratified and standardised 70 years ago. Also didnt realise there would be a senate inquiry over a movie either. > > One thing though , why did those historians and their sloppy work bump up Mannocks tally then? nationalism? just quoting the last guys numbers without bothering to check? does anyone have a strong opinion on it? > > cam > > > Visit my homepage at http://www.prontomail.com/Prontomail/users/cameron > ______________________________________________________________ > Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:33:45 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <199808271632.RAA02339@beryl.sol.co.uk> Sorry Cam - I got so carried away in explaining why there was imprecision in Allied claims I forgot to answer why Mannock's score was increased! Mannock is generally regarded as having been one of the best aviation leaders of the Great War. He looked after novice pilots and helped them learn the skills of the trade as opposed to abandoning them to their fate which happened frequently elsewhere. Members of Tiger Squadron believed that Mannock allocated many of his own kills to new pilots to give them confidence and build up teamwork rather than being a prima donna himself. After the war, Taffy Jones, who flew in 85 with Mannock and knew him well, wrote several books extolling Mannock's selflessness. It became accepted that Mannock's official tally did not include several kills which he had not bothered claiming for himself. Make what you will of it - it is open to debate as is almost every other pilot's score - perhaps especially so when, like von Reichspudding, they are in fact heavily documented. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:38:53 -0400 From: "Denest, Michael J" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Load of old Tosh - was: Billy Bishop web page Message-ID: <31E6187EA8D0D111ACFE00805FE643DC74AF28@xch-phl-06.he.boeing.com> Thank you, Sandy!!! Mike > The 3rd and probably most sensible route is to accept that it was a > War. As > such, reason went out the window. Just enjoy the wonderful flowering > of > aviation under extreme conditions and the fantastic choice of subjects > it > gave us modellers to test our skills on. > Sandy > > ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1181 **********************