WWI Digest 1153 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Nieuport 10 by martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) 2) 25 Sqn RFC by martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) 3) RE: Weathering by Joey Valenciano 4) Re: Nieuport 10 by mbittner@juno.com 5) RE: Weathering WAS (Whew! I was getting lonely) by Joey Valenciano 6) Re: Tires was...Weathering WAS ... by Don Rinker 7) RE: Weathering by Pedro e Francisca Soares 8) Aviation What-not by Pedro e Francisca Soares 9) TV alert by "Steven M. Perry" 10) Re: Weathering by "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." 11) Re: Tires was...Weathering WAS ... by KarrArt@aol.com 12) Re: Weathering by Nigel Rayner 13) D.H.10A by David & Carol Fletcher 14) Re: TV alert by Ernest Thomas 15) Re: 25 Sqn RFC by "Sandy Adam" 16) Fw: 25 Sqn RFC by "Sandy Adam" 17) Re: I'm feeling much better now... by Kenneth Hagerup 18) Re: I'm feeling much better now... by Mike Dicianna 19) RE: Weathering WAS (Whew! I was getting lonely) by martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) 20) Re: Fw: 25 Sqn RFC by martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) 21) RE: Weathering WAS (Whew! I was getting lonely) by Shane Weier 22) RE: Fw: 25 Sqn RFC by Shane Weier 23) Re: TV alert by WBailey719@aol.com 24) RE: TV alert by "brandyjd" 25) Re: TV alert by "Steven M. Perry" 26) Fokker drawings by Dave Watts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:25:28 +0100 From: martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) To: wwi Subject: Nieuport 10 Message-ID: <19980808092528.e29637712e6b11d2b57c004f4b00cee4.in@mailrelay.pipemedia.net> Can anyone tell me anything about this a/c? I have not heard of it before. Apparently it equipped the 1ere Escadrille de Chasse of the Aviation Militaire Belge when that unit was formed in February 1916. It is described as a 'Bebe' and also as a monoplane. Was it like the N.11 or more like the Morane Saulnier N? What armament did it carry and what was the performance like relative to the MS N and N.11? Thanks Martin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:25:31 +0100 From: martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) To: wwi Subject: 25 Sqn RFC Message-ID: <19980808092531.e29637752e6b11d2b57c004f4b00cee4.in@mailrelay.pipemedia.net> Hi all. I am doing some research into this unit and it's operations in the summer of 1918, specifically the period March to September. I know it flew DH4s and was involved in some very longe range high altitude photo recon and bombing sorties. Can anyone tell me where it was based, who it's C.O. was and a brief background of ground operations that it flew in support of. If there is a book that might help me then details would be gratefully received. Many thanks Martin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:32:37 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: Weathering Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980808003237.00742c98@philonline.com.ph> >You know the way the front of the axle wing fairing on a Fokker D.VIII >looks? Kinda like a garage floor, all stained Oil stains on rotary planes are fun and challenging to add. There's a photo of J. Jacobs close-up and posed beside the front end of his Tripe. A lot of oil seeped through the seam that joins the side walls of the cowl with the front. There's a lot of oil trickling from that curved seam onto the front face of the cowl, but the "side face" side of the seam has no oil at all, challenging also to paint in the drips (gloss) as narrow as possible. >Try mixing a touch of Paynes Grey >oil colour with Future/Kleer/Shine and dripping it strategically exactly >like the real stuff. I like diluted clear smoke w/ some black oil paint (for some opacity). >May work with the similar lower stringer edge stains too but I like that >area a bit cleaner - not every aircarft looked entirely crappy But take a look at the Pfalz E series datafile. Many up-ended aircraft. The oil stain goes down the center fabric belly seam all the way to the rear fuselage. Observe khaki coloured cloth when you wet it, the wet areas get much darker than the dry. I think some oil staining could be simulated that way too, when the oil seeps into the fabric, you don't necessarily have a black staining or a sheen on the surface, just a darker version of the fabric. Talking about oil damage, the chipping paint it causes is another thing to rekon with. Tears/bullet holes in the fabric got repaired before a plane was flown again. The hole could very possibly be the start of a large tear due to the force of the slipstream. interrestingly, some of the German planes had little roundels painted on the patched area. And about the pristine romantic, knights in shining armour finish, I recall that field paints were usually of a poor quality. So you have brush marks (uneven paint coverage), and not so vivid colours (add a little grey or brown to pure colours). Look at the German aircraft that had their crosses retouched. You'll see that the retouch paint is very different in tone than the original finish and the newer paint could have a different sheen to it. This "poor paint" situation is actually a boon to us modellers. Giving the "knight scheme" aircraft a neater than the real thing paint job usually results in the model looking very toy-like. This became very obvious as I was painting my Udet (ex-Krischtein) Triplane. I added a little white to the black stripes and juuuuust a touch of light grey to the white stripes. After they were painted on, I went over the black stripes with a white wash and a black wash for the white stripes. This was very judiciously done, the effect of the wash is not obvious at all, just enough to vary the "too even" airbrush job. It worked. To continue, the Tripe had a red "LO" on each side of the fuselage. No transfers matched so I looked for white dry transfers of the correct size and shape/font. I applied the dry transfers and painted over the transfers with red tech pen ink. I used tech pen ink because it covers well enough (you know the trouble with most all red paints) and I could wipe off errors with a wet tissue. The effect of the brushed on ink was very good. It was sealed with a clear coat. The Udet SSW I did has a paint job of much darkened red. I used the kit transfers for the "LO!" but went over the transfers with a red wash to simulate the base colour showing through. That worked as well. Have any of you guys seen paint chipping like that on WWI Jap planes? I don't seem to recall that happening much to WWI birds. As to paint fading, I don't think that happened much because the aircraft were well protected because they were of wood and fabric (one of the praises the Junkers D.I got was that you could leave it out in the open, whatever weather you had) and, they didn't last long enough for fading to happen. The only fading I recall is that found on Fokker E.V's converted to D.VIII's. They erased the old serial and painted in the new one. Erasing the old serial caused the lozenges in that area to fade. The could probably be simulated with a white wash? If oil stains are a can of worms then simulating sagging/wrinkled fabric and buckling plywood skinning is a bowl of maggots! ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 08:15:05 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Cc: wwi Subject: Re: Nieuport 10 Message-ID: <19980808.083413.-134355.2.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 04:21:40 -0400 martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) writes: >Can anyone tell me anything about this a/c? I have not heard of it >before. >Apparently it equipped the 1ere Escadrille de Chasse of the Aviation >Militaire Belge when that unit was formed in February 1916. > >It is described as a 'Bebe' and also as a monoplane. Was it like the >N.11 or >more like the Morane Saulnier N? What armament did it carry and what >was the >performance like relative to the MS N and N.11? Go to Mike's site; he has some good profiles on Nie.10's there. The Nie.10 is a little bigger than the Nie.11, but arranged basically the same. The Nie.10 came both in a two-seater as well as one-seater configuration. The second-to-latest Datafile was on the Nie.10/Nie.12 (which is like the Nie.10). Here's Mike's URL: http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/nieuport.html Matt Bittner _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 08:24:47 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: Weathering WAS (Whew! I was getting lonely) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980808082447.00745f54@philonline.com.ph> >These sound like wonderful tips - but to take this in a slightly different >direction how do members on the list "weather" tires? Firstly, weren't WWI tires dark to medium grey? The Halb Cl.III mentions yellow tires on a restored aircraft. Dark, chrome, or lemon yellow? Or would Dark tan be a better interpretation. Don't use straight black for wheels. At least use dark grey. You can dry brush some brown later, or possibly dust it with brown pastels. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 10:34:31 -0400 From: Don Rinker To: wwi Subject: Re: Tires was...Weathering WAS ... Message-ID: <35CC61F7.7B7A0825@fast.net> Joey Valenciano wrote: > > >These sound like wonderful tips - but to take this in a slightly different > >direction how do members on the list "weather" tires? > > Firstly, weren't WWI tires dark to medium grey? Tires are just another big can of worms... Many were sort of a neutral grey to a tannish color. Just look at nautural surgial rubber tubing and you get the idea. Many early ones were almost pure white. This is also common on many early autos also. I think the later on in th WAr you get, there is more or a preponderance of Black type tires, especially in the British designs. Palmer Aero, the maker of most of the allied tires from 1917 on, was pioneer in adding lampblack and other agents to the rubber to retard aging and cracking. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:41:08 +0200 From: Pedro e Francisca Soares To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Weathering Message-ID: <01BDC2E3.2370C640@fei1-p13.telepac.pt> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC2E3.23925800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Did you all receive the message below? I should receive my own mail to = the list but didn't receive this one originally. Could you email (direct) feedback? I did get it and let me had my 2 tostoes worth on the subject (that's = why I'm letting this out to The List): I always add a bit of weathering to my models. Sometimes I even overdo = it, I'm sure, but I feel that if it looks right to the eye than it's = right. I also find that a bit of weathering here and there helps = conceal faults that might be apparent do to my limited skills. I believe = in the "impressionistic" approach: I try to create something that our = senses can perceive as a scaled down object (not as true scale model - = there's a subtle difference between the 2) and feel "it looks right" = even if it means that some things 72 times bigger would look completely = out of place.=20 This said, I trust a lot the use of graphite to accentuate panel lines = or to add sheen to metal parts of to represent cordite stains, etc. Try to go over an engraved panel line with a .3 or .5 graphite lead and = then blend it in with a tough pork bristle square brush. It works for me = all the time. It has to be done over a matt surface though, graphite = won't stick to gloss. That idea of blowing blobs of paint with the airbrush slipstream look = quite promising too. Thanks. HTH Um abraco Pedro (who can't model since it's been more than 35 centigrade all week long = and I just can't bear it) ;-(. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC2E3.23925800 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhgNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAsAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAMAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3Iu dW5oLmVkdQBTTVRQAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3IudW5oLmVkdQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAFgAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3IudW5oLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEw AQAAABgAAAAnd3dpQHBlYXNlMS5zci51bmguZWR1JwACAQswAQAAABsAAABTTVRQOldXSUBQRUFT RTEuU1IuVU5ILkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAFgAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3Iu dW5oLmVkdQAAAAIB918BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEu c3IudW5oLmVkdQBTTVRQAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3IudW5oLmVkdQAAAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAA AgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9tYAQSAAQAPAAAAUkU6IFdlYXRoZXJpbmcA/wQBBYADAA4AAADOBwgA CAAPACkACAAGACsBASCAAwAOAAAAzgcIAAgADwAZADkABgBMAQEJgAEAIQAAAEUxNDc1RkZFRDMy RUQyMTFBQTc2NDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAP4GAQOQBgAgCAAAIAAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYA AAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBgJ+wy0sK9AR4AcAABAAAADwAAAFJFOiBX ZWF0aGVyaW5nAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvcLSG0j+X0fZLtMR0qp2REVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUA AABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAGQAAAHBuc29hcmVzQG1haWwudGVsZXBhYy5wdAAAAAADAAYQCEQL SAMABxB0BAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASElBTEwsRElEWU9VQUxMUkVDRUlWRVRIRU1FU1NBR0VCRUxP Vz9JU0hPVUxEUkVDRUlWRU1ZT1dOTUFJTFRPVEhFTElTVEJVVERJRE5UUkVDRUlWRVRISVNPTkVP UklHSU5BTAAAAAACAQkQAQAAABAFAAAMBQAAIwcAAExaRnV6vEMoAwAKAHJjcGcxMjWmMgD4C2Bu ZwHQNwHoTiACpAPjAgBjaArAc7BldDAgBxMCgH0KgNkIyCA7CW8OMDUCgAqBDHVjAFALA2ZpLTEE NDQBQGxpMTgwNwFADNAVM2MAQQ8CMTB8MzMLpwqxCoQLMBWAM742FkIVYQ8VCqADYHQFkCJ0F6RI aSAHQGwsAxeoCoBEaWQgIHkLCGAagiAJcGNlaXYwZSB0aBzAB4FzYRJnHMBiZQkAdz8g0Ekgc2gI YGwbsBxmeG15IB3QA6AAwAMRdC5vHNIXpBWAcwVAYnXlBUBkG6BuJwVAHGgEAM0fQG4cwAWwaWcL gBqRvHkuGtoIUR5xG+JlH5OGKCEwHGF0KSBmCeDkZGIA0Gs/GtoWUxmVtxFgHhAhMSAdcAVAaQVA 2wBwG7BsKFEHgCARABuwrR8hMh/RIMBvB5F3CRGGaCJhHNNzdWJqGdGjJRAc4GF0JypRaB8wqEkn bSjidAuAZyIVKyEBH+FUHPFMILEpOsca2h4QB0B3YXkEIClwTRuwYR2QKIFvZipgZX8r8BzwBRAt Eh/wHyEEYmx8cy4GAANwEUAHcx4QZXscsAOgbxywCyAf8CiALP8scytACXAz8CDyHhAlsR/Bnyvh KHAwoCiBCQBvawQgzSLBaC2zHOJleRzCA5HfKIAsETZzMjAvYnMf8BUA/yjBNWMwPy0RMQEcwCiy MPKzHMA60WxwBCAFoG4cgGsHQCWgYR5gdAQgNWNt9zaDHaAagHAKsQnwIREf8Z8xgxWAPYAZwBuw c2sDEH8yEh4QHaEIkByxC4Ac0yJ3B3AZkB0xaQIgILEN4CInPgIDYADQaDoeAXRy/x8wH+EFADDR KyEyYiIwLRN/NYEIYR4gCfARMDwhA5Fw+wSQHIRhL9EeIEWgKPAbsOszoB9hbytlbhmwRmJDIOcK UEa0McQgLTtkLBFGof0rUHRI8SEwASA68TxhHZHudDDAMzEc4jIlkCiyNRP/QUA1+0JAMxM1tAeA BiI1Y/9EAiISDyAEIAHAHNAHcznA/mcdcAXAKnAeYjYSPDFBYP8o8R2wHzEhATCRC1EcgDIw/xra LgAiQR1QG6Az8UhiIMH/OaAJAC2xHPFVACKRMKAJwH8+ECIwQ9Ef4QDQHIACMHX/Q8IKsCKAAyAV gCKAIlEFwP9W4jABHjBLozGBEUA8kQqx/z0BMJEf4QlwQXI+YgWhITC3Q9IBkAuAczPwEUBjI1v6 VEM0Zx/wM2IooSSwDyD/VmAcsBuwV8gqYCiAKrA5oOQuM1hyLjVWSCjwKXH/OzUDoAJgCfAbsCiB QNFf1b0f4HU2kEXQBbBRoGIFEPMgwEjxc3FXcDsBZCBVAP5oOHEFQCpxNkECEAXAKTH/HCIc4jKS ZWMRAD0RH/A94f8zoCKCXiMfgQJANEI8wEsx/xzgY4Iz8FZXKnAhYkICUaD/XbIJAAQQXKw1cwEA OaAwke8CYB3QLQJtsWJaUwqwC4DvZZFf4hziC3ByZRMeIBWA/zwQQyAw0CyhUYJksFaiGZG3PYAA kDFDbzIwbOFuNkDTI1saBVRIGtpVLKABoHdWYAWgGtpQCYADYBraKP8sQENxAHAhcUkkcfFLMTfT 3x2gMzEEYDsBN4MzYLBXMv8i0FZgAQAcE0uRUaAJAC0R+yiyHhBqVQJ3xB2gCsEogHElkDstKHL/ CoAR8QABfyADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAQAAHMMCtXhPQwr0BQAAIMMCtXhPQwr0BCwAAgAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMA BYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAJgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUA AAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAMACoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwATgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADABSACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAFoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgAlgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEA AAABAAAAAAAAAB4AJoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACeACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00 /TcAAKYZ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC2E3.23925800-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:50:09 +0200 From: Pedro e Francisca Soares To: "WW1 Modeling List (E-mail)" Subject: Aviation What-not Message-ID: <01BDC2E4.3E97A6E0@fei1-p13.telepac.pt> Guys, Bob and Chris have done it again. WOW. Super profiles. Just check the aviation what-not August issue. Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:06:52 -0400 From: "Steven M. Perry" To: wwi Subject: TV alert Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980808120652.006d8314@pop.mindspring.com> 1200 EDT Lafayette Esquadrille on the History Channel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:03:40 -0700 From: "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." To: wwi Subject: Re: Weathering Message-ID: Joey wrote: > >Oil stains on rotary planes are fun and challenging to add. There's a photo >of J. Jacobs close-up and posed beside the front end of his Tripe. A lot of >oil seeped through the seam that joins the side walls of the cowl with the >front. There's a lot of oil trickling from that curved seam onto the front >face of the cowl, but the "side face" side of the seam has no oil at all, >challenging also to paint in the drips (gloss) as narrow as possible. > Imrie's Fokker Triplane book has a photo (#146), of a Dr.I crashed and up-ended by Rudolph Rienau with a very good view of the undersurface. Due to the direction of the rotation of the engine, the exhaust and castor oil stains are unevenly distributed on the lower wings so that the port wings are much more heavily stained. For those who may not have access to the photo.....The lower port wing is heavily stained all the way to the margin of the white panel of the cross with heavy staining even getting the inside-aft corner of the panel. The starboard lower wing is moderately stained as is, to a lesser degree, the port middle wing. The starboard middle wing appears rather clean. The top wing is not well seen but appears to be clean. >Look at the German aircraft that had their crosses retouched. You'll see >that the retouch paint is very different ... > >This "poor paint" situation is actually a boon to us modellers. Giving the >"knight scheme" aircraft a neater than the real thing paint job usually >results in the model looking very toy-like. > I agree. I was looking at some images of very realistically weathered WW II models the other day (it may have been on the Houstom IPMS page). Some photos were taken with an outdoor background and it was hard for me to imagine that I was looking at a model and not a color photo of an actual aircraft taken during WW II. I've started doing simple "weathering" (accentuating panel lines, exhaust stains, etc) but would like to read more about weathering appropriate for WW I as most tecniques in books apply to metal off-topic aircraft. In other words, I wish there we "talked dirty" more often on the List. ;-) > >Have any of you guys seen paint chipping like that on WWII Jap planes? I >don't seem to recall that happening much to WWI birds. > The most glaring examples of paint failure I have seen are with field painting on aircraft that were supposedly left uncovered in the field after being retired from daily use due to obsolescence. Examples would be Raben's Dr. I in the photo taken after it had fallen into French hands and MvR's Dr.I (152/17) which sat in the open until it was shipped back to Germany for museum display after his death. Fernando Lamas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:55:30 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Tires was...Weathering WAS ... Message-ID: In a message dated 98-08-08 10:37:58 EDT, you write: << Tires are just another big can of worms... Many were sort of a neutral grey to a tannish color. Just look at nautural surgial rubber tubing and you get the idea. Many early ones were almost pure white. This is also common on many early autos also.>> I usually start with a base coat of light gray with a dab of yellow in it. After drying, a grungy brownish gray wash. When this dries, I stick the wheel on a toothpick and while spinning it in my fingers, I drybrush a very light tan around the perimeter. If I'm going for a "deep mud" look, I have been known to mix a little plaster of paris in with the drybrush color and stick it where it looks good! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:22:54 -0700 From: Nigel Rayner To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Weathering Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980808122254.0073df78@pop.mindspring.com> At 14:06 08/08/98 -0400, Fernando E. Lamas, M.D. wrote: > I agree. I was looking at some images of very realistically weathered WW >II models the other day (it may have been on the Houstom IPMS page). Some >photos were taken with an outdoor background and it was hard for me to >imagine that I was looking at a model and not a color photo of an actual >aircraft taken during WW II. I've started doing simple "weathering" >(accentuating panel lines, exhaust stains, etc) but would like to read more >about weathering appropriate for WW I as most tecniques in books apply to >metal off-topic aircraft. > > In other words, I wish there we "talked dirty" more often on the List. ;-) It's personal taste, but I'm a great fan of weathering - planes in a WWI combat zone would have received little tlc. I'm just at the painting stage of my first WWI kit after returning to the hobby, so these techniques are "anticipatory", but they come from years of figure modelling (and in Napoleonics, theres a lot of cloth, wood, metal and muck!). I'd thoroughly recommend dry brushing techniques (eg for tyres, base colour dark grey, then dry brush with medium grey, then dry brush with off white). For adding realistic dirt, grime and oil stains, try oil colours. Use combinations of burnt umber, burnt sienna and Payne's grey or black in very, very thin washes to subtly accentuate details and to "dull down" bright paint finishes - this gives a good "grimy" finish. Also, if you apply washes after dry brushing, you will get a very impressive 3d effect. Paint on less thinned Payne's grey end blow with a straw to get good oil stains. Pastel dust in earth colours is good for representing dust and mud, and for adding "faded" patches to painted areas (altho" good points were made that fading was probably not that common - planes didn't last that long and weren't stored in the open). For the final word on this subject, get a copy of "How to build Dioramas" by Shep Paine (published by Kalmbach). He is a master modeller, and this book contains everything you'd ever need to know about weathering planes or AFVs. It is full of pictures that would make even the estimable Steve H weep with envy, and altho' there are no WWI subjects, it covers the whole gamut of weathering techniques. If you're interested in placing your models in realistic settings, this book will spark your imagination. And no, I'm not on commission! Regards, Nigel R. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:43:11 -0700 From: David & Carol Fletcher To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: D.H.10A Message-ID: <35CCB85F.2264@mars.ark.com> Thanks to those who responded - I have managed to get a copy of the Datafile and the Aviation News plans of the D.H.10. Now if I can only find a D.H.10A in D-Day invasion stripes... Dave Fletcher mdf@mars.ark.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 17:47:25 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: TV alert Message-ID: <35CCD57D.53AF@bellsouth.net> Steven M. Perry wrote: > > 1200 EDT Lafayette Esquadrille on the History Channel No cable here. E. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:51:14 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: 25 Sqn RFC Message-ID: <199808082249.XAA25938@beryl.sol.co.uk> RAF Squadrons, by Wing Commander CG Jefford (Airlife Publications) lists all Sqdns with dates of moving bases. It gives the following for 24Sqdn in the period in which you are interested: 3/2/18 to Serny 6/3/18 to Villers-Bretonneux 24/3/18 to Beauvais 29/3/18 to Ruisseauville 27/10/18 to La Brayelle. all this period on DH-4s although they got DH-9As on Oct 19. 29/11/18 to Mauberge. HTH Sandy ---------- > From: Martin Soilleux-Cardwell > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: 25 Sqn RFC > Date: 08 August 1998 01:22 > > Hi all. > > I am doing some research into this unit and it's operations in the summer of > 1918, specifically the period March to September. I know it flew DH4s and > was involved in some very longe range high altitude photo recon and bombing > sorties. > Can anyone tell me where it was based, who it's C.O. was and a brief > background of ground operations that it flew in support of. > > If there is a book that might help me then details would be gratefully received. > > Many thanks > Martin > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:53:14 -0700 From: "Sandy Adam" To: "AAA - WW1 Group" Subject: Fw: 25 Sqn RFC Message-ID: <199808082252.XAA25982@beryl.sol.co.uk> Stupid me - I mistyped 24 Sqdn - the info is for 25Sqdn as reqested. Sandy > > RAF Squadrons, by Wing Commander CG Jefford (Airlife Publications) lists > all Sqdns with dates of moving bases. > It gives the following for 24Sqdn in the period in which you are > interested: > 3/2/18 to Serny > 6/3/18 to Villers-Bretonneux > 24/3/18 to Beauvais > 29/3/18 to Ruisseauville > 27/10/18 to La Brayelle. > all this period on DH-4s although they got DH-9As on Oct 19. > 29/11/18 to Mauberge. > HTH > Sandy > > > ---------- > > From: Martin Soilleux-Cardwell > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: 25 Sqn RFC > > Date: 08 August 1998 01:22 > > > > Hi all. > > > > I am doing some research into this unit and it's operations in the summer > of > > 1918, specifically the period March to September. I know it flew DH4s and > > was involved in some very longe range high altitude photo recon and > bombing > > sorties. > > Can anyone tell me where it was based, who it's C.O. was and a brief > > background of ground operations that it flew in support of. > > > > If there is a book that might help me then details would be gratefully > received. > > > > Many thanks > > Martin > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 18:31:24 -0500 From: Kenneth Hagerup To: wwi Subject: Re: I'm feeling much better now... Message-ID: <35CCDFCC.1129@prodigy.net> Mike Dicianna wrote: > In fact, I was daydreaming at work today of a display > shelf for my 1/48th scale kits set up like a "museum" Scale railings/stantions > to keep the 1/48th scale viewers from "touching" the displays, having planes > set up on blocks under the wheels to keep them from going "flat", maybe a > small display placard showing the name of each aircraft.... painting the shelf > like a linoleum floor (or wood) with pathways between the displays.... I have done something similar for the display of aircraft which fit a common theme. I built some glass-fronted, oak display cases, 3x3x1 feet. Each shelf has a simple base, covering the entire shelf. WWII USN aircraft rest on a section of USS Essex's flight deck, modern aircraft on tarmac, WWI aircraft on a section of muddy WWI airfield. These aren't as detailed as diorama bases, with just a few details here and there such as some wooden planks for walkways on the WWI scene. They serve to put the aircraft in context for viewers. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 17:08:40 +0000 From: Mike Dicianna To: wwi Subject: Re: I'm feeling much better now... Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980808170840.0067e56c@proaxis.com> At 07:41 PM 8/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >Mike Dicianna wrote: > >> In fact, I was daydreaming at work today of a display >> shelf for my 1/48th scale kits set up like a "museum" I built some glass-fronted, oak display cases, 3x3x1 >feet. Each shelf has a simple base, covering the entire shelf. WWII >USN aircraft rest on a section of USS Essex's flight deck, modern >aircraft on tarmac, WWI aircraft on a section of muddy WWI airfield. >These aren't as detailed as diorama bases, with just a few details here >and there such as some wooden planks for walkways on the WWI scene. They >serve to put the aircraft in context for viewers. > Great concept....have been fine tuning these different scenes in my own mind. mike > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 01:38:06 +0100 From: martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) To: wwi Subject: RE: Weathering WAS (Whew! I was getting lonely) Message-ID: <19980809013806.e2963e5a2e6b11d2b57c004f4b00cee4.in@mailrelay.pipemedia.net> >These sound like wonderful tips - but to take this in a slightly different >direction how do members on the list "weather" tires? I paint them Humbrol olive drab. Gives a nice crud grey which looks like rubber after plenty of use and sunlight. If you go outside and look at any car you'll see what I mean. Martin "The tail of the machine was suddenly wrenched upwards as if it had been hit from below...I caught hold of the uprights...then next thing I realised was that I was lying in a heap on what ordinarily is the under surface of the top plane... I stood up, held on and waited. The machine just floated about, gliding from side to side like a piece of paper falling... Then it went down tail first, turned over upside-down again, and restarted the old floating motion. We were still some way from the ground, and took what seemed like a long time reaching it...according to those who were looking on, I did not jump until about ten feet from the ground." - Lt H.R.P. Reynolds, 2 Company, Air Battalion Royal Engineers, 1911. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 01:57:18 +0100 From: martinsc@pipemedia.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fw: 25 Sqn RFC Message-ID: <19980809015718.e2963e7f2e6b11d2b57c004f4b00cee4.in@mailrelay.pipemedia.net> >Stupid me - I mistyped 24 Sqdn - the info is for 25Sqdn as reqested. >Sandy > And very useful it is too, thanks. Now I just need a heads up on the ground ops it was supporting but I guess that's OT. M ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:14:47 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Weathering WAS (Whew! I was getting lonely) Message-ID: <199808090130.LAA27935@mimmon.mim.com.au> Joey (and all) >Firstly, weren't WWI tires dark to medium grey? >The Halb Cl.III mentions yellow tires on a restored aircraft. Dark, chrome, >or lemon yellow? Or would Dark tan be a better interpretation. No synthetic rubber back then and the natural stuff is kind of cream in colour. You can often see this colour on pram wheels ! Natural rubber has a somewhat short life due to perishing, and additives which included IIRC carbon, would take the tone towards a warm dark grey rather than the pitch black of (new) modern tyres. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:24:04 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Fw: 25 Sqn RFC Message-ID: <199808090140.LAA27946@mimmon.mim.com.au> Mike says: >Now I just need a heads up on the ground ops it was supporting but I guess >that's OT. Only, I have no idea why. Because it's land, not air? This is a WW1 modelling list, not AIR modelling. Because you want history, not plastic? Can't properly separate the one from the other. Go ahead and ask, I wish I had the resources to answer Shane ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:33:35 EDT From: WBailey719@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: TV alert Message-ID: <1e1a8194.35ccfc70@aol.com> Steven, Is the Lafayette program on at 12:00 or 24:00 EST ? Or in other words, noon or midnight? Thanks,......... Bill In a message dated 98-08-08 12:03:13 EDT, Steven Perry writes: << 1200 EDT Lafayette Esquadrille on the History Channel >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:41:38 -0700 From: "brandyjd" To: Subject: RE: TV alert Message-ID: <000001bdc336$dda3ed00$a08514d1@gopher> Keywords: Modelling That was on at 12:00 EDT (note -- Daylight Time at the moment) For those of us on the West Coast, it was on at 9 AM this morning. I had it bookmarked and I missed it, WAH! Janet -----Original Message----- From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu [mailto:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu]On Behalf Of WBailey719@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 08, 1998 6:37 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: TV alert Steven, Is the Lafayette program on at 12:00 or 24:00 EST ? Or in other words, noon or midnight? Thanks,......... Bill In a message dated 98-08-08 12:03:13 EDT, Steven Perry writes: << 1200 EDT Lafayette Esquadrille on the History Channel >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 22:00:34 -0400 From: "Steven M. Perry" To: wwi Subject: Re: TV alert Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980808220034.006933bc@pop.mindspring.com> At 09:36 PM 8/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >Steven, > Is the Lafayette program on at 12:00 or 24:00 EST ? Or in other words, >noon or midnight? Duh Ah, Noon. It was only 20 min and the information was both general and generally inacurate. There were some good shots of Nie.11s being propped off. Sorry I didn't specify sp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 21:07:43 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Subject: Fokker drawings Message-ID: <199808090209.VAA07613@sam.on-net.net> Mike Fletcher writes; >AFAIK some new Fokker werks drawings just surfaced in the last year or two in >Austria or Hungary -- never swa them or heard anything else about them though A few weeks ago I posted; One myth/fact, that I believe has not been put to sleep, is the one involving the Fokker D.VII and Fokker's reluctance to give his army ordered contracted licensee builders a set of formal drawings. I believe the story goes, that he simply sent them aircraft number 230/18, and they had to generate their own set of drawings from this. Later the aircraft shows up in photographs covered in fabric, (in Albatros fashion, with Albatros style lettering). This proof of covering by Albatros alone would support the "story", but is not proof positive that Fokker did not supply working drawings. Recently a buddy of mine unearthed 21 Fokker factory drawings in the Vienna archives. They were most likely there from the Fokker venture with M.A.G. in Matyasfold near Budapest. I had not heard of these existing drawings before, and wondered if anyone else had. Yes, I am having him send me over copies as soon as possible. I believe the earliest drawing is dated January 20th, 1918, and the latest 29th of September, 1918. They include a drawing dated 24-August-18, of the separate "oel" tank, from the pressurized fuel tank, (for safety reasons). The baffles in the fuel tank would sometimes separate, allowing fuel under pressure into the oil tank/compartment. The lighter fuel would bleed through the breather, which vented/exited on the right side behind the exhaust. It would ignite sending a flame down the aircraft, and a brown stripe down the pilots undies. Any other theories/facts on the "arrogant" Fokker, not supplying drawings to Albatros? Mike F. writes; >a point about accuracy - unless it was done on metal it won't retain its >original acuracy for long anyway because of moisture and heat cause even >extremely good quality paper to shrink and expand by more than that much -BUT >most aircraft aren't built to that kind of tolerances anyway. IMHO photographs >are good for producing a general three view (check out my drawing of the >Nieuport 6H) but only for a model but not to build a real aircraft with. The >programs I have seen have a great deal of difficulty in determining the shape of >control surfaces and are easily confused by distortions in the airframes shape Back to the subject matter, has anyone made the plunge to purchase any of Dan Abbott's Dr.I >drawings as shown in the latest WWI Aero @ $5 per sheet? Charles Hart writes; > I saw these drawings in the latest WW I Aero as well. I have to wonder how they were produced. Are >these drawings, apparently drafted to accuracy of a few millimeters in most dimensions, produced >entirely from examining and measuring photographs ?? This would beg the question how well a model >(even at 1:1 scale) might fly if constructed off of these. I went ahead and bit the bullet on these, and am sending $135 + $5 postage for the "set" of drawings. I just called Dan-San, and asked him about the drawings, he said they are 1/10 scale, and not perfect. He also said, if he lives long enough, he will do a complete set of working drawings. (Imrie says the same thing about making a definitive work on the Fokker D.VII., "if he lives long enough"). Dan made them from photos, and some drawings, not specific. I'll give you a report on them, when I get them. You can get a good idea though from the WW1 Aero spread. Charles Hart writes; >Dave, do you know of any surviving construction drawings of the Dr-I or has >all of this information been lost to the sands of time ? I know there is a Adlershof report that gives dimensions, materials, and weights for many of the components of the aircraft. This report is very, very specific, and you can extrapolate accurate information from it. I have seen it, but have not been able to get a copy. Several times I have encountered situations where someone has some "hot" unknown report, drawing, photo, or whatever, and they may have gone to great lengths or expense to get it, and they are very tight with sharing this. It's like trying to get the Vatican to let go of the scrolls. I can understand where they are coming from, but they need to disseminate the information some how, even if they charge for it. Best Wishes, Dave W. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1153 **********************