WWI Digest 1144 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Clear doped linen by "Mike Muth" 2) Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view by huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) 3) photos of interest by Dave Watts 4) RE: Jasta 5 scans, different view by "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> 5) Americal Frustration as I Write the Check by "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." 6) Re: Dragon DR1 kit by Mick Fauchon 7) Re: Dragon DR1 kit by Ernest Thomas 8) Re: Dark Slate Grey by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 9) Re: Dragon DR1 kit by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 10) Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 11) Re: Dragon DR1 kit by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 12) Re: Thanks for your opinions by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 13) Re: RPM FT 17 - A closer look by Ernest Thomas 14) Re: Rigging Help by Ernest Thomas 15) Oshkosh/Dietz/copyright by Dave Watts 16) photos of interest......correction by Dave Watts 17) Re: Dragon DR1 kit by Dave Watts 18) Re: Oshkosh/Dietz/copyright by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 19) Re: Writing a check to Americal today by REwing@aol.com 20) Re: Copyright and the list by Joey Valenciano 21) Re: THE MAIN CULPRIT SPEAKS!!! by Joey Valenciano 22) RE: Jasta 5 scans, different view by Joey Valenciano 23) Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view by "Rob." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:37:35 -0400 From: "Mike Muth" To: Subject: Re: Clear doped linen Message-ID: <004801bdbe76$e98ea520$7006bacc@bucky> My favorite is Testors Modern Dessert Sand. Mike Muth -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Curtis To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Sunday, August 02, 1998 11:38 AM Subject: Clear doped linen >What's the best paint and color to use to represent clear doped linen? > >Jeff > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:01:48 -0500 From: huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view Message-ID: >The points about copyrights are in general quite valid, but in the case of >the Americal/Gryphon scans which went around recently, I think the list >probably did Americal more good than harm. For those who have heard of them >but not yet made an order, this is far more likely to generate orders than >not. Additionally many of us are regular customers and already own paid for >literature sheets from many of the A/G decal sheets. FYI, I asked for a set of the scans, but apparently was too late as I did not get them. My first and only experiance with A/G decals was about 8 years ago. The sheet I got had a b/w8.5x11 page printed on both sides with some basic placement drawings. The decals were not on register and were basically not that much use. For the price I paid, I just put in the "I spend more than this a month on junk that I don't get anything in return for" catagory and did not give then another thought. I have had access to the Almark, Blue Ryder, Pegasus, and the other makers of WWI decals and did not miss having the A/G material. The talk about the material presented in the J5 scans of the instruction sheet sparked a desire to know more and to see if the first sheet was a lost leaded or what was in all their material. After all, I need some out of the normal scope of public info on the Dr.i as I hace three of the Hawkeye kits to work on. If the catalog is just a listing of sheets available, it won't do me much good. Had I got the scans and liked what I saw, I would have sent off an order for the complete package. Copyright laws do need to be watched. Passing on information (in this case, not the complete package) to other interested users would very well ment an increase in orders to the manufacturer. As it stands at this time, I am no better off than I was last week. I know of A/G. I have had one bad experiance with them and that showed me that the asking price for the decals was too high for what was received. I had thought about making some of the WWI articles published in the old "Dirty Plastics" newsletter available to the group. With all this in mind, I may not continue for fear of causing someone to get upset about sharing information with the group. Kind of reminds me of a time when we were talking about a recognation button and one of the suggested buttons had a plug for a private site and not the group. As it turns out, the reason was a form of payment for his time to produce the b/w buttons. Sort of goes something like "lets all help each other out (with a hand held out for some sort of payment) and make this a better hobby". Why can't we just be happy with the satisfaction of helping a fellow modeler be payment enough. Granted, there will be times whren a nominal fee will have to be charged to recoupe a cash out lay for the original material purchased for the groups use. Soap bnox mode off, I'm going to go build a model John Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 20:12:09 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Subject: photos of interest Message-ID: <199808030113.UAA03320@sam.on-net.net> I thought you might be interested in taking a gander at these photos that were on sale on the eBay auction site. One is for you Brit' watchers, and the other is for you Bosche watchers. (I bought the German one). Go to the ebay page, http://pages.ebay.com/aw/search.html and go down to item search and type in; For the British photo, item Nr. 23437500 . For the German photo, item Nr. 229727456 . If you have a decent printer, you can print them out, and keep them for reference. I could make the Albatros one available, once I get it I could scan it in, and email it out. Best Wishes, Dave Watts ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 15:01:41 -0600 From: "D. Anderson" <2814823733@home.com> To: wwi Subject: RE: Jasta 5 scans, different view Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980802150141.0071d008@mail> At 04:28 PM 02/08/98 -0400, you wrote: >a professionally done website, including limited web commerce capability, >starts at 5k$US, at least here in the houston area. i've spoken with dr. >merrill about this and he is not currently interested in such. 5k$US?!? I don't bloody blame him. But this is a Straw Man to begin with. You are as much as saying that because he cannot afford a Cadillac or a Lincoln Continental, he cannot afford a car at all. You say "professionally done," and by that I assume you mean that you are assuming that the HTML and the artwork is done by a Web "professional," who will indeed charge you biggo bucks for his (possible) exertise. And "limited web commerce capability" I assume refers to the need for a special arrangement with the service provider to provide for online transactions (which will require, at the very least, some sort of CGI capability to handle on-line forms). But with my service provider *I* get free web space provided, with storage capacity up to 5 megs. Granted, that's for a non-commercial home-page, but I've seen plenty of "home-pages" offering to sell and buy stuff. ALL Mr. Merrill needs is a simple page displaying a list of his products and how much they cost, and a snailmail address where we could send our postal orders to. If he felt the need, he could dress it up with one or two scans of his most colorful sheets to help entice interest. Even something this basic will increase his sales. There is no such thing as making life too easy for your customers. Anyway, I'm sure if he contacts his service provider and informs its staff of his needs, that of a very small businessman with very limited capital, they will be able to help him out and offer him a service that meets his needs and his limited budget. And there is simply no need at all to pay a "professional" (I can assure you that quite a few advertised "professional Web page developers" are as qualified as I am; i.e., they read a "For Dummies" book, maybe the Quickstart book, and hung out a shingle; actually no. Sometimes, they aren't even that qualified); learning simple HTML is really, really, really easy (and even fun!). And composing Web pages is one of the few things you can do with a computer than doesn't require a lot of money (however much Adobe and Microsoft would like to convine you otherwise); all you need is a text editor and a shareware image editing program. Come to that, and I offered this months before, Mr. Merrill gets himself a basic site, sends me the source materials, and I'LL write the HTML, free of charge (I won't even ask for a free decal sheet)! Dane >phillip > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joey Valenciano [SMTP:joeyval@philonline.com.ph] >Sent: Sunday, August 02, 1998 10:40 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view > > >>If Mr Merrill would set up a site where one could >>go and have a sqiz, (like Aeromaster), I think his sales would increase. > >Thinking along these lines, Blue Rider does (did?) have a website. Why >wouldn't they have profiles from their instruction sheets in cyberspace? >Cost too much maybe? > > >********************************************************************* > >Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, >joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist >Metro-Manila, Philippines > > "The more you know, the more you don't know." > >********************************************************************* > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:45:32 -0700 From: "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." To: wwi Subject: Americal Frustration as I Write the Check Message-ID: >> >> After the Jasta 5 scans showed me what you get with Americal, the inertia >>has been broken. Today I will sit down with the Americal catalog, make my >>choices and write out a check. > >> Fernando Lamas >> Well, true to my word, I pulled out the Americal catalog and went shopping. So much to choose from. I picked out a sheet each of top and bottom 5-color camo. Since 4-color is more common, I picked out two sheets of each. And that selection of crosses sure looked good and rib tapes, reverse lozenge, etc. etc. And last but not least, some of the expensive ones at the end: a Jasta 15 and a Cigogne and, what the hell, let's help the guy out, a Jasta 5 and a Jasta 13. It came out to 17 sheets for a total of $141.00 (choke). Then I came to the Postage instructions: "Shipment via First Class Mail to U.S." "7 - 10 sheets ordered........................$3.50" "more than ten sheets ordered..........10% of order" "NOTE: orders lacking proper postage or sales tax will be returned UNFILLED." What? Fourteen dollars and ten cents worth of postage? It costs $10.60 more to mail 17 items than it does to mail 10 items? If I order ten of the Cigognes and Jasta sheets at $12.50 apiece I pay $3.50 in postage but if I add one more rib tape sheet the postage jumps up to $13.15? I'm actually being *penalized* for being a *good* customer?!?! The postage policy in no way refects actual postage costs. The advertising slogan for the U.S. Postal Service First Class Packets is "Three Pounds, Three Days, Three Dollars." Squadron's postage policy is a maximum postage of $4.75 for orders over $50.00. Now I admit that $10.60 in extra postage won't do serious damage to my wallet. However, I was ticked off and felt that I was being taken advantage of. It was the principle of the thing. So, I went back over the list and began dropping items: the Cigognes, the Jasta 5 and 13 and the extra 4-color camo sheets, etc. I ended up with a ten item order for $71.00 with $3.50 in postage. Mr. Merrill may be a great researcher and he may be a very nice guy. However, he really needs to develop a modicum of business savvy. You lose business by acting like the soup vendor character in "Seinfeld": "You ordered more than ten sheets!! Ten extra dollars in postage or NO DECALS FOR YOU!!!" (Soap Box Mode off) Fernando Lamas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:24 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Dragon DR1 kit Message-ID: Matt, > It's in the wrong scale. 80P''''' For some people it's in the *right* scale! 80) Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 21:02:45 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Dragon DR1 kit Message-ID: <35C51A45.7A2C@bellsouth.net> Mike Dicianna wrote: Need some pretty good interior shots... I have some, but they're all in the possession of Mr. Wright(no, not the man of my dreams, the creator of this excellent forum for us stringbag modelers). Maybe you could ask him to scan one and send it over to you. E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:37:56 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: Dark Slate Grey Message-ID: <35C52284.3D08@ricochet.net> Alberto Rada wrote: > > Hi > > Although slightly out of topic ( its for a Stringbag ) should be considered > WW I although did half of the work for the other conflict. > > The upper surfaces where camouflaged in this color and in Extra Dark > Sea Grey ( this one I have ) > > I need an equivalent in Humbrol or Aeromaster How about Aeromaster WWII German RLM 66? I'm just guessing at what constitutes a dk slate grey, but you might look at the rest of Aeromaster's line; they may have what you need and I think they're now mixed for either brush or spray out of the jar. FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:18:31 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dragon DR1 kit Message-ID: <199808030318.UAA21377@ednet1.orednet.org> -snips- >What are the requisite references for the DR.1, all I have is the Squadron >DR.1 In action. Need some pretty good interior shots... There are, so far as I recall, only two cockpit photos of Dr.Is - if you ignore assorted "crash" photos with the cockpit area ripped open. Neither of the cockpit photos is particularly good at disclosing much of anything at all about the interior layout. For modeling purposesl, the Windsock Datafile Special on the Dr.I is probably the best. I see that Rollmodels claims to have it in stock now for $20.00 + postage. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:32:09 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view Message-ID: <199808030332.UAA26503@ednet1.orednet.org> John Huggins writes: >FYI, > I asked for a set of the scans, but apparently was too late as I did not >get them. My first and only experiance with A/G decals was about 8 years >ago. The sheet I got had a b/w8.5x11 page printed on both sides with some >basic placement drawings. The decals were not on register and were >basically not that much use. For the price I paid, I just put in the "I >spend more than this a month on junk that I don't get anything in return >for" catagory and did not give then another thought. Dr. Merrill is very good about replacing defective decals. Admittedly, off-register decals should probably not be shipped in the first place but I doubt his operation is big enough to employ a very large quality control staff. But, if you're not satisfied with the decals you receive, ship 'em back with a note explaining the problem. I've done that twice and each time replacement sheets were sent me, promptly and with no questions or quibbling or additional charge. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:37:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dragon DR1 kit Message-ID: <199808030337.UAA27878@ednet1.orednet.org> Dane writes: >I agree. But tell me--surely that detailing on the underside of the wings >is bogus? It seems awfully overdone. This was the subject of an extended discussion on this list a couple years back or so. The supporters and detractors of DML/Dragon's treatment of the wing undersurfaces seemed to divide fairly evenly. Not wishing to reopen _that_ particular can of worms again, I think I leave it that "the underwing detailing is the source of some differences of opinion." :-) Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 20:29:21 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: Thanks for your opinions Message-ID: <35C52E91.7AED@ricochet.net> Jeff Curtis wrote: > Are any of them suitable for first efforts at a WW I biplane? If I were just getting my feet wet, I might just step away from the DH2 (to avoid possibly mucking up a rare kit) and practice on the Acadamy Camel or Smer Albatros. The Smer is cheap enough to be a donor for other projects if it doesn't come out. > Merlin Models kit #6 - Breguet Br.14 B2 Looks rougher than a cob to me. This is probably Merlin's best kit, as it's alleged to have been based on the Czechmaster resin. > Are any of these Merlin kits buildable? They are 'buildable' if one is stubborn, moderately skilled and incurably frugal, but there is a great range of opinion as to whether or not they actually qualify as models or basic scrathbuilding components or are even worth the calories of consideration. Most are chunky, ill-fitting and warped, and the older ones (such as the Roland C.II) are based inaccurate drawings. Most also include virtually unusable strut material. You have to expect to spend an inordinate amount of time just fitting one together. With literally boxes of Merlin kits collecting dust for more than a decade, the local Robbery shop has finally hit upon the idea of selling the most screwed up specimens on a sale table as "defective"! After not moving these stinkers for years, one of the proprietors objected to me trying to take the best parts from two Nieuport 10 kits (on the counter, after asking him to examine the kits) to make a 'buildable' one! The only reason I didn't tell him what I thought of his crappy sale table and his precious Merlin masterpieces (and laugh in his face) was that he has a few Blue Rider sheets that I still need, as well as a few Sierra an Lonestar vacs that are out of production. I have to admit to being silly enough to have bought a defective (missing parts and gouged up a bit) Merlin C.II on impulse. I'm still stubbornly carving the ocarina exhaust manifold and will use solder wire for the header pipes. I wish it didn't bother me so much to part with 50-$60 for a proper kit, but I've never gotten used to the idea of spending about twice what Eduard asks for their two-seaters. Unfortunately, even when Merlin kits (which feature a number of very interesting subjects) are on the bargain table, you will never quite get what you pay for. FWIW, Riordan And so it goes... Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 22:59:03 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: RPM FT 17 - A closer look Message-ID: <35C53587.7127@bellsouth.net> Leonard Endy wrote: > Is the one in the museum in a camo pattern ? Yes it is. Green and something greyish. E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:33:04 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Rigging Help Message-ID: <35C53D80.71DD@bellsouth.net> Nigel Rayner wrote: Toying with two options - > stretched sprue or monofilament fishing wire > Without starting a controversy similar to that in scale to 1/72 vs 1/48 > :-), opinions and advice please. No controversy at all, everyone knows that 1/48 is better./%] Seriously, For 1/48, I use mostly guitar string(.008) and I'll use waxed therad, or fly tying thread for rigging that's supposed to be a wound cable. Though I found some 2lb fishing line that I want to try out. Figure that's all it would be good for. /%] In 1/72, I like transparent thread. It's a very very fine monofilament that can be found at the fabric store. And if it's too subtle for your taste, try painting it. It takes paint well. Good luck E. > > Many thanks, > > Nigel R. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:46:34 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Subject: Oshkosh/Dietz/copyright Message-ID: <199808030448.XAA09269@sam.on-net.net> The only aircraft of note, at Oshkosh, was a replica Sopwith Camel, forgive me for not recalling the gents name, who owns it. The aircraft also graces the cover of a magazine that is out this month. It is a fine representation, not entirely original, but he flew it to the show, and wants to fly it on a regular basis, reliably. I can imagine that he may have spent $4000-$5000 for the streamline flying wire alone. While at Oshkosh, I was fortunate enough to hang out for lunch and dinner with my friend, and distinguished artist Jim Dietz. He had a formal exhibition at the EAA museum of around 32 of his original works, many on loan from the present owners. It was quite impressive to say the least. Recalling Don Rinker's posting about his unique framing and matting of his proof, the same exact format was employed on several of the paintings there. About a year ago, I commissioned him to do a painting of one of the first Fokker D.VIIs at the Fokker factory in Schwerin, receiving its' acceptance flight. I had done a lot of research on the subject, and pretty well overwhelmed him with photos of the factory, etc. Jim gave a casual talk at the museum, and a formal one at the banquet, where he was presented with a award. He told me he had prepared several slides for his presentation, and had included one of a approval sketch, he had sent to me for approval, that I had returned with about six or seven corrections, (including the omission of a strut), but he said he couldn't let anyone know he could make that many mistakes, and dropped it from the talk. He really didn't make that many mistakes, it's that I was particular about an exact production series D.VII., and the details that entailed. I tried something unique with my framing as well. I used the upper surface lozenge around the painting, somewhat like a matting, inside of the frame. I think it worked quite well. Now to the subject that has been kicked about recently. When I was at Aerodrome 94, I picked up the Jim Dietz print, "Circus Rolls At Dawn". I had lunch with Jim, and was going to have dinner with him that evening. I was with my friend Fred Jungclaus, (SE 5a replica builder/flyer, and Dietz friend). I came up with this idea to make color laser copies of Dietz's print, and later show it to him and say some guy was selling them at the front gate. I knew this would have to strike a copyright nerve, and would make for some fun. When I was at the photo copier, Fred and I noticed the photo T-shirts, and immediately switched to them. We had them crop the print for use on the shirt, and Fred even forged Jim's signature to the T-shirts. We worked out a story line, put on the shirts, and went back to the fly-in field. I spotted Jim taking photos of Ed Storo's Bristol F2b, and approached him. He greeted us both, and we chatted about the nice work on Ed's plane. As we chatted, he glanced down at my shirt and while tapping me on the chest, he said, "Where did you get this?" I said, "Oh yea, I like what you're doing with these, I really think you'll do quite well with them." Fred chimed in, "Yes, I got one too!", pulling open his flight suit, revealing the shirt, "There's a guy out by the front gate with his kid, selling them out of the back of a 94' Chevy Suburban". I quickly followed, "Yea, I was going to get one of those, Mud in Your Eye "deals", but the guy said he was out of my size,....but if I came back in a hour, he'd have em." At this time Jim said, "I didn't authorize those!", "That's copyright infringement!", "I'm going to call my lawyer!" Fred and I said, "Don't worry about it, the guy's only making a couple of bucks." To which Jim replied, "The hell he is, he's driving a new 94' Suburban!" By this time Fred and I could not help from smiling. Jim hesitated and then continued, "...and I'm going to sue you bastards too!" Just a reminder, that it counts. If someone has a original photo or illustration, that was loaned to someone else, who then uses it in a article, that first someone will want to be asked, and will certainly want the acknowledgement and credit. Even if the someone will, "not care", they should still be asked, if nothing else, it's just good manners, and it's legal. Everyone wants recognition for their work or property, and no one wants their rights taken away from them. While at Oshkosh, I purchased a copy of the Schiffer "Fokker V5/Dr.1" book by Wolfgang Schuster and Achim Sven Engels. This is the book that had Alex Imrie, and a number of other WWI historians up in arms over unauthorized usage of their photo images in the book. Jim Dietz had not given permission for usage of his artwork for the cover as well. Some of them are talking about legal action. I have gotten a copy of Dietz's new "Print Portfolio" listing his prints for sale. I do not believe that Jim has a web site at this time. He does have a e-mail address. If anyone wants to know if any of his particular prints are available, just ask me, and I will try to help out. Best To All! Dave Watts ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 00:04:34 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: Subject: photos of interest......correction Message-ID: <199808030505.AAA09836@sam.on-net.net> Sorry about that, the eBay listing for the German Albatros photo item # is 22927456. Best to All! Dave W ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 00:27:14 -0500 From: Dave Watts To: wwi Subject: Re: Dragon DR1 kit Message-ID: <199808030528.AAA10237@sam.on-net.net> >-snips- >What are the requisite references for the DR.1, all I have is the Squadron >DR.1 In action. Need some pretty good interior shots... One nice detail that can be seen on page 32 of the new Schiffer book, by Schuster and Engels, is the compass deviation table on the back of the ammo belt box in the cockpit. The pisser is, that the caption for this photo on page 32 states, "A sample of this table can be found elsewhere within the pages of this book." The same photo can be seen more clearly on page 78 in Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane". I know I saw a copy or facsimile of one of these deviation tables in a old issue of Cross & Cockade of Great Britain. Someone may be able to help out here. If not I can go digging. Best To All! Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:38:40 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Oshkosh/Dietz/copyright Message-ID: <199808030538.WAA13173@ednet1.orednet.org> Dave Watts writes: -snips- > Just a reminder, that it counts. If someone has a original photo or >illustration, that was loaned to someone else, who then uses it in a >article, that first someone will want to be asked, and will certainly want >the acknowledgement and credit. Even if the someone will, "not care", they >should still be asked, if nothing else, it's just good manners, and it's >legal. Everyone wants recognition for their work or property, and no one >wants their rights taken away from them. > While at Oshkosh, I purchased a copy of the Schiffer "Fokker V5/Dr.1" >book by Wolfgang Schuster and Achim Sven Engels. This is the book that had >Alex Imrie, and a number of other WWI historians up in arms over >unauthorized usage of their photo images in the book. Jim Dietz had not >given permission for usage of his artwork for the cover as well. Some of >them are talking about legal action. While I certainly don't approve of anyone "stealing" Jim Dietz's paintings without permission, I must question Imrie's (and others) alleged high dudgeon over the photographs. Just because someone owns a photograph does not mean that person owns the copyright on that photograph. The physical photograph and the copyright on that photograph are two separate things and possession of a negative or print of a particular photograph does _not_ necessarily imply ownership of the photographs copyright. In most cases, the copyright remainds with the original photographer _unless_ he/she has assigned it to someone else or released it into the public domain. Certainly the fact that Imrie or someone else has published a particular photograph in a book or other publication does not, by itself, give that person any particular copyright ownership over that particular image. In any case, with two exceptions (of reproduction aircraft), all the photographs in the Schiffer book date from 1918 or earlier. Any copyrights on these photographs have long since expired, even assuming that they copyrights were not previously released into the public domain. And, indeed, almost all the photographs in the Schiffer book are sharp enough (indeed, mostly the sharpest set of published triplane photos I've seen - probably the only real reason for buying the book) that the photos were almost certainly not reproduced from any publication published by Imrie but were almost certainly reproduced by separate negatives or prints in the possession of either Schiffer or one of the two authors. I guess my only point on this was to object to the overly restrictive warning about reproducing photographs. While drawings and paintings and the like should not be reproduced with the approval of the creator (or the copyright holder, if different from the creator) and while the descriptive text of photo-captions is fully copyrighted, the actual genuine WW1 photo images are either not copyrighted at all or, if they ever were copyrighted, the copyright has long since expired. Genuine WW1 photos may be freely copied and distributed no matter where you find them. Common courtesy would dictate that one acknowledge the source of any photos copied and distributed but copyright considerations do not apply. -soap box mode off- -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:44:10 EDT From: REwing@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Writing a check to Americal today Message-ID: << I could have written Fernando's post word-for-word. >> BIG SNIP I'm going to throw my $0.02 worth on this discussion, too. I was really tempted to "me too" a request for the scans and just didn't get to it. I've seen the ads for the decals and have an Americal catalogue, but I haven't ordered them because I hate ordering blind. I wasn't aware that a such a great booklet came with the decals. All this hoopla has peaked my interest in making an order this week for the Jasta 5 decals. Are there any other hidden treasures that Glen has that I should also order? So, in a way, this discussion probably has helped more than it has harmed. -Rick- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:07:37 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Copyright and the list Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980803130737.006d76cc@philonline.com.ph> >>I'm unhappy about >>getting complete scans of datafiles, Windsocks and similar exactly for the >>reasons that Shane and others expressed Others have given me photocopies of entire out of print datafiles in the past, complete with coloured covers (thank you! In view of the present discussions, I won't mention your name(s), but you know how you are). Happy ending: I managed to find said datafiles available from web bookstores. There's nothing like the original. >Albatros periodically reissues datafiles (dammit! I've got to get me the >SE5a one now!) Why not stick with the Datafile Special? I wonder why Rimmell prioritizes datafiles already featured as specials? My mouth is watering for reprints of the Hannover, SSW D.III and MS-L. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:52:21 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: THE MAIN CULPRIT SPEAKS!!! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980803125221.006d76cc@philonline.com.ph> >>6) Aha! Shane has Glen Merril's email address! I'd like to know what he has >>to say. Will he say,. .. > >E-mail him and ask. If he had email made available to us, I would have! It's not even on his catalog sheet. ** On accessibility of modelling resources: Other modeling sources have had their emails shared on the list (Sopwith Hobbies, Sierra). Not having his email address made available is limiting his marketing resources. I ordered a fair number of Fotocut products in the past but have always dealed through Barry instead of direct. I wish Rimmell would be as easy to get through to as well. >Personally, I feel he is likely to view it the second way, that his >instructions are as much the product as the decals themselves (which I've >heard aren't themselves too hot). All these messages on the subject matter are helping us fine tune the groundrules for sharing stuff through/on the list. However, in this particular case, what Glen Merrill has to say is, I feel, what counts most. My opinon is that (and this is just my opinion) if he gives that much weight to the instructions, then maybe he can find a better way to sell/distribute the info therein rather than making the sheets appear as mere "instruction" as to placement of decals and proper painting of the model. Take note, most model kit instruction sheets not only show how the parts go together, what paints to use, where the decals go, but also include development and service histories of the prototype. This is exactly what you get with the Jasta 5 sheet. I've read on-list requests of listees asking for copies of kit instructions (some due to misplacement, some to view DML instructions to detail a 1/72nd kit) and many coming to the rescue on-list also. Smiles all around, everyone gets a pat on the back. Again, this is how I perceived things initially. I wouldn't write DML or even a small quantity manufacturer like Sierra (3 views for instructions? Yum, yum, gimme a copy so I can scratchbuild[?]) for permission just to photocopy the instructions. But now that opposing views are raised, I back off and wait for Mr. Merrill's views. If he want's his instruction sheets treated differently from those of other producers, that's his option. >I don't want to sound >too harsh, Joey, but your question about the legality of this is sort of >like some kid wondering if it is illegal to break into people's houses, >because there aren't any signs out there on the street that say you can't. I agree, under a stark legal light, that is the way to view my statement. >Even if you didn't know whether what you were doing was illegal, you should >not have acted without first asking Americal's permission. Listees asking for photocopies of instruction sheets are in error then.... >I'm one of the guys who missed out. My solution to this "problem" is >probably best all around: this discussion has stimulated my interest enough >that I am going to send off for an Americal catalogue, then order some >decals from him. Finally. The sacrificial calf has done his bit then ..... Sounding negative? no, it's just a joke mixed in with some of my thought's on the matter. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:43:22 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: Jasta 5 scans, different view Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980803134322.006d76cc@philonline.com.ph> >Come to that, and I offered this months before, Mr. Merrill gets himself a >basic site, sends me the source materials, and I'LL write the HTML, free of >charge (I won't even ask for a free decal sheet)! And I offer to do some coloured profiles to put on the site for same money charged above. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:27:55 +0000 From: "Rob." To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 5 scans, different view Message-ID: <199808030623.CAA04485@mcfeely.concentric.net> > Free web space is available all over the net. I am currently in the > process of expanding my own site to free areas of the web. > All that leaves the cost of a dialup isp - which for a good isp may run > $25 a month.. > No more excuses Americal I have met Dr. Merrill, and I have also offered to do a web-site for him. But the cost of developing a site is not the real issue. Dr. Merrill has managed to keep Americal going for some years doing things the way he has been, and I wouldn't second-guess him if he decides that a Web presence is a poor idea. You and I don't have the financial exposure or the years invested that he has. Americal has limited resources, and if the proprietor chooses to put them into research and silk-screening rather than a website, who am I to criticize? Criticisms like those that have been floating around on the list also show a remarkable ignorance of the realities facing a small business. There is no such thing as free. The so-called "free" space providers want to load the site with those annoying console ads, burrow into your PC with third-party stealth cookies, and gather the e-mail addresses of visitors for sale to spammers. Even if Americal were anxious to expose its narrow customer base to this, such sites are not usually available to commercial ventures. The cheapest commercial site is also about $40/month for e-mail and a couple of megs of storage and throughput. Secure servers for credit-card orders are quite a bit more, particularly if they generate heavy traffic. The $25 cited is possible for a non-commercial site, but still low. Someone suggested using a personal site for sales. Check your ISP's Terms of Service and you will see why this is a bad idea. Finally, accepting credit cards is itself not a cheap proposition. The credit card companies charge hefty fees. I don't know if Americal accepts them at present, but they didn't use to, doubtless for this reason. All of this stuff adds up and eats away at what is probably a startlingly slim margin. Add that to the fact that decals are not Dr. Merrill's real business in life, and you can understand why he might be reluctant to buy in (literally) to every scheme that comes off this list. By the way, I am a professional web developer (among other things), and I agree that the fees some charge for a couple of hours work is ludicrous. But that does not mean that they don't get charged and paid. Offers of free work are problematical for a businessman. Will the enthusiast stay in it for the long haul, uncompensated? Or will he lose interest and leave the business with angry customers, lost orders, and a damaged reputation? So I say, don't tell Merrill how to run his business. If you can do it better, start your own. Rob To e-mail me, replace the l with the numeral 1. Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1144 **********************