WWI Digest 1133 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 2) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 3) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 4) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 5) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by Mick Fauchon 6) RE: German and UK Medals Questions (1/2 off topic) by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 7) Re: Enlisted Pilots? by Mick Fauchon 8) Re: Enlisted Pilots? by Bob Pearson 9) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Shane Weier 10) Re: Enlisted Pilots? by "Rob." 11) Re: Enlisted Pilots? by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 12) Re: Enlisted Pilots? by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 13) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 14) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Shane Weier 15) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 16) Re: Roland C.II Walfisch by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 17) Re: Nieuport Decals by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 18) Soldat Louis Honore Martin (was RE: Enlisted Pilots? by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 19) Re: Enlisted Pilots? by Bob Pearson 20) Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 21) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Mick Fauchon 22) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Bob Pearson 23) Re: Soldat Louis Honore Martin (was RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Bob Pearson 24) Re: Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) by KarrArt@aol.com 25) Re: Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) by Bob Pearson 26) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by Mick Fauchon 27) Re: Modelling Facilities (was Struts) by huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) 28) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Shane Weier 29) RE: Enlisted Pilots? by Mick Fauchon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:44 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23491@milehigh.denver.net> >I think it goes something like: Thank you kindly for your timely reply. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:45 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23494@milehigh.denver.net> >In a message dated 98-07-28 14:53:03 EDT, you write: > ><< Yer on yer own on the German medals >> > >Complicated due to the various states-Prussia, Bavaria, etc. All them there >Teutonic states had their own medals. >Robert K. Thanks for the reply. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:46 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23503@milehigh.denver.net> Cameron, > >> Prussians...etc. Let us just assume the individual in question was >> eligible. What order would they go in from highest to lowest? I.E in what >> order would you normally get them? Thanks in advance. Thanks! I sincerely appreciate the response. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:48 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23506@milehigh.denver.net> >Orders ( DSO etc.. ) rank second after the VC ( or GC/ GM ) >Because the Navy is the Senior service The DSC is worn before the MC and >DFC, the Army being senior to Air Force, the DFC is worn after the MC Much thanks for your thoughtful reply. Sincerely appreciated. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:35:41 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: Shane, et al., > Actually, this matter of qualifications and decorations has prompted > another thought. Remember that some of the German states awarded titles > of nobility "knighthoods" as well (Ritter), and these have no > requirement for gallantry, though it may be part of the reason for the > award. The K"onigreich Bayern [Kingdom of Bavaria] is a conspicuous example.......and today, believe it or not, the place is still full of royalists. The award would naturally be only open to officers, and one would expect an officer to be gallant. Even in Bavaria 80) Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:42:25 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions (1/2 off topic) Message-ID: <199807290142.TAA23794@milehigh.denver.net> >per my previous message, the "medals" section of "the aerodrome" web page >can be found at: > > http://theaerodrome.com/medals.html Thank you kindly. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:48:54 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: Cameron, > I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did the > other combatants or were they unusual? The Imperial German Air Service it was fairly common practice: scan any list of pilots and you'll see a reasonable number of Vizefeldwebel turning up. Whether they could get to commissioned rank was a moot point. Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:59:07 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <01590716204645@KAIEN.COM> > > I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did the > > other combatants or were they unusual? > > The Imperial German Air Service it was fairly common practice: scan > any list of pilots and you'll see a reasonable number of Vizefeldwebel > turning up. Whether they could get to commissioned rank was a moot point. > > > Mick. In the German Air Service it was possible for NCO pilots to reach commissioned rank, unlike the Austro-Hungarian Luftfahrtruppe where only Josef Kiss made that step - and he had to die first. In the RFC, JTB McCudden started as a Sgt pilot flying DH2s and rose to Major (well actually he started as a mechanic, but that is another story) Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:13:21 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290230.MAA29804@mimmon.mim.com.au> Mick, > >> I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did > the > >> other combatants or were they unusual? > > The Imperial German Air Service it was fairly common practice: scan >any list of pilots and you'll see a reasonable number of Vizefeldwebel >turning up. Even, I suspect, a couple of "Flieger" (privates) though I may be wrong there, in so far as I expect they qualified and were promoted before being posted to field units from the schools. >Whether they could get to commissioned rank was a moot point. Tell that to Jasta 5. There were three PleM winning NCO pilots flying green tails Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:26:46 +0000 From: "Rob." To: wwi Subject: Re: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290321.XAA10372@newman.concentric.net> > I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did the > other combatants or were they unusual? > Actually, enlisted pilots were more or less normal early in the wa. The observers were officers with officer-type training in tactics, artillery observation, navigation, and ballistics. The pilots were mechanics and chauffeurs--the boys driving the captain's car, not the man commanding it. There weren't many pilots, however, at first. As the pilot's status improved and he became an officer more often than not, the terrific wastage of officers made field commissions more common than they were before the war or would be after. Indeed, many if not most of these wartime commissions were revoked after the war. A mechanic might make a good leader in combat, but he could never be a gentleman. Rob To e-mail me, replace the l with the numeral 1. Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:28:00 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290328.VAA26036@milehigh.denver.net> > Cameron, > >> I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did the >> other combatants or were they unusual? > > The Imperial German Air Service it was fairly common practice: scan >any list of pilots and you'll see a reasonable number of Vizefeldwebel >turning up. Whether they could get to commissioned rank was a moot point. > > Thanks for the reply. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:28:01 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290328.VAA26055@milehigh.denver.net> >In the German Air Service it was possible for NCO pilots to reach >commissioned rank, unlike the Austro-Hungarian Luftfahrtruppe where only >Josef Kiss made that step - and he had to die first. In the RFC, JTB >McCudden started as a Sgt pilot flying DH2s and rose to Major (well actually >he started as a mechanic, but that is another story) > >Regards, > Bob Pearson A veritable fountain of information. Thanks for the reply. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:28:03 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290328.VAA26068@milehigh.denver.net> >Even, I suspect, a couple of "Flieger" (privates) though I may be wrong >there, in so far as I expect they qualified and were promoted before >being posted to field units from the schools. > >>Whether they could get to commissioned rank was a moot point. > >Tell that to Jasta 5. There were three PleM winning NCO pilots flying >green tails > >Shane Thanks Shane! Appreciate it. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:37:53 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290354.NAA00229@mimmon.mim.com.au> Rob, >. Indeed, many if not most of these >wartime commissions were revoked after the war. A mechanic might make >a good leader in combat, but he could never be a gentleman. A good point which didn't necessarily pertain in the forces of *all* combatants. Some of us are bloody convicts and extremely suspicious of the born to rule attitude ! Not, mind you, that I can think of the name of even one NCO pilot in the AFC, but the Australian forces in general were pretty slipshod about requiring officers to be "of a certain class". Hell, even Gen. Monash was a *citizen soldier* (part time reservist) Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:17:03 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290417.VAA25996@ednet1.orednet.org> Mick writes: > > The question of eligability is a vexed one: for the Pour le M'erite >one had to be a) a Prussian > b) an officer. > Offiziere der Reserve were, sadly, ineligable. My references say that Werner Voss was Westfallen - he was originally commissioned in a Westfallen Hussar regiment, anyway. Ditto Gontermann who is listed as a Westfallen and Berthold who is listed as being born in Bavaria. Did they make these guys honorary Prussians, were they somehow "naturalized" as Prussians, or am I missing something about what it means to be "a Prussian"? Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:05:41 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: Roland C.II Walfisch Message-ID: <35BE9F95.70F6@ricochet.net> Mike Muth wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Berlien > To: Multiple recipients of list > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 10:35 AM > Subject: Re: Roland C.II Walfisch > > >I have the 1/72 Airfix Walfisch, which I would like to build OOB, but I > >have a basic question - what color is it? > John > I just finished one of these recently. Riordan suggested a Model Masters > Pale Flanker Blue You are correct, but the closest Humbrol color I could find was #65. Not as good as the Testors, IMO. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:18:12 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: Nieuport Decals Message-ID: <35BEA284.15D@ricochet.net> Pedro e Francisca Soares wrote: > > Hi you all, and especially you Matt, > > let me add something to your Nieuport decal list. Yesterday I bought = > Carpena Decals sheet 72.39 "GUYNEMER et les CIGOGNES" (1/72 of course Let's not neglect balloon scale. There's the Blue Rider WWI French Escadrille sheet (BR503) which includes 2 Bebes, 17s, Spad VIIs and even a Breguet! And let's not forget the Lone Star sheet which although having unusable cocades, does feature markings for eight of the first-string Lafayette boys. FWIW, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Soldat Louis Honore Martin (was RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290431.VAA02326@ednet1.orednet.org> >> >> I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did >> the >> >> other combatants or were they unusual? >> The Imperial German Air Service it was fairly common practice: >scan >>any list of pilots and you'll see a reasonable number of Vizefeldwebel >>turning up. >Even, I suspect, a couple of "Flieger" (privates) though I may be wrong >there, in so far as I expect they qualified and were promoted before >being posted to field units from the schools. Which brings up a rather enigmatic entry in the French aces list in the old Harleyford "Aces of the 1914-1918 War", to wit: "Soldat Louis Honore Martin - 5" I've always wondered how this fellow could have become an ace yet remain a lowly private. Does anyone have any further information on this pilot and why he remained in such humble rank? Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:47:54 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <04475414404941@KAIEN.COM> Rob writes . . . > There weren't many pilots, however, at first. As the pilot's status > improved and he became an officer more often than not, the terrific > wastage of officers made field commissions more common than they were > before the war or would be after. Indeed, many if not most of these > wartime commissions were revoked after the war. A mechanic might make > a good leader in combat, but he could never be a gentleman. An emininet WW1 author told me about his conversation with William Mays Fry about Collishaw " . . . Oh but he wasn't one of us you see . . . . at this point Willie leaned in real close and whispered " He peed in the bathwater" regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:32:44 -0700 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) Message-ID: <35BEA5EC.6ECE@ricochet.net> Closing in on a Smer Bebe, I've been squizzing a lot of snaps and have noticed the 11s of N.124 sported rudder flashes with white stripes rather wider than the red or blue bits. Also, Floquil Italian Brown and Pactra Topside Green loook like fair to good matches for French dk brown and drab green. Layed a bit too much green on, so I'll have to have another spritz with the brown. QOTW: Was Bert Hall really the jerk he was made out to be by Malloy-Mason? Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:57:25 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: Shane and Cameron, > >Even, I suspect, a couple of "Flieger" (privates) though I may be wrong "Flieger" is actually the lowest form of "winged" life; equivalent to AC. It would be unusual for "Flieger" to be actually flying. They were called such, except for the specialists like "Monteur" etc., because they were originally attached to the Fliegerabteilung. > >Tell that to Jasta 5. There were three PleM winning NCO pilots flying > >green tails And still weren't commissioned. Technically field commissions were open to anyone with the necessary qualifications......I would have thought the PlM would have been an excellent qualification. Cheers, Mick. P.S. Looks like the right to hold the PlM doesn't automatically confer the right to rank 80( -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:07:36 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <05073618304966@KAIEN.COM> Shane writes . . . > Not, mind you, that I can think of the name of even one NCO pilot in the > AFC, but the Australian forces in general were pretty slipshod about > requiring officers to be "of a certain class". Hell, even Gen. Monash > was a *citizen soldier* (part time reservist) > > Shane > So was Currie, and he was technically a criminal as well (embezzled mess funds for his failing real estate business prior to WW1), who was only saved by the generosity of his officers. And yet if Daniel Dancocks is to be believed, Currie was due to replace Haig in 1919 and Monash was to be his Chief of Staff :-) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:16:00 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Soldat Louis Honore Martin (was RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <05160010804975@KAIEN.COM> Bill queries . . . > Which brings up a rather enigmatic entry in the French aces list > in the old Harleyford "Aces of the 1914-1918 War", to wit: > > "Soldat Louis Honore Martin - 5" > > I've always wondered how this fellow could have become an ace > yet remain a lowly private. Does anyone have any further > information on this pilot and why he remained in such humble > rank? ----------- Bill, According to OVER THE FRONT "Born 18 October 1895, virtually nothing is known about this machine gunner ace. It is known however, that he was cited five times in army orders and that he was mentioned in the official communiques on 29 December 1916, for downing his fifth enemy plane. He received the Medaille Militaire on 24 November 1916 MMcitation Machine Gunner of aexceptional sjkilll and courahe. He hjas had multoiple aerial combat during the course of which he succeeded in downing four enemy planes. In the last one, on 1 November 1916, he descended to within 150 meters of teh ground to down a German plane in flames, in its own territory; having had one motor damaged he had to recross the lines at low altitude returning with his machine riddled with bullets. Pursuant to Decision No 30571 of 27 November 1917, issued by tthe Chief of the Air Service of GQG, Soldat Martin was to report to the Depot of the 1er Groupe d'Aviation, at Dijon, for pilot's training. It is odd that a man of his gunnery skill did not rise above the rank of Soldat as did most all the other machine gunners in Escadrille C.46. He also held the Croix de Guerre with five palmes and one etoile. He died on 27 January 1920" Sorry, not much to go on. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:11:45 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) Message-ID: <3aad7999.35beaf18@aol.com> In a message dated 98-07-29 00:45:17 EDT, you write: << Was Bert Hall really the jerk he was made out to be by Malloy-Mason? Riordan >> Not having the issue in front of me, but an old C&C USA had a short bio and I seem to remember that, yes, he was a jerk. If life itself relents sometime, I'll see if I can find the article. Robert K. ( too tired or lazy lately to be very lively) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:25:29 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) Message-ID: <05252926604988@KAIEN.COM> There was also an article on him in an old Air Classics or similiar trashy mag about twenty years ago that pretty well says he was a jerk. Bob ---------- > From: KarrArt@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Bebes over the woods (Nie. 11 colors) > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:17:59 -0400 > > In a message dated 98-07-29 00:45:17 EDT, you write: > > << > Was Bert Hall really the jerk he was made out to be by Malloy-Mason? > > Riordan >> > > Not having the issue in front of me, but an old C&C USA had a short bio and I > seem to remember that, yes, he was a jerk. If life itself relents sometime, > I'll see if I can find the article. > Robert K. ( too tired or lazy lately to be very lively) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:25:02 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: Bill, > > The question of eligability is a vexed one: for the Pour le M'erite > >one had to be a) a Prussian > > b) an officer. > > Offiziere der Reserve were, sadly, ineligable. > > My references say that Werner Voss was Westfallen - he was originally > commissioned in a Westfallen Hussar regiment, anyway. I said it was a vexed question. Originally it was intended to be a solely Prussian decoration, although it would have been good press to extend eligability to all members of the Reich were. Conversely, it would be exceedingly bad press to exclude men with outstanding records because they enlisted in the wrong state. I guess the same philosophy would extend to NCOs. Westfalen doesn't cause a problem, it being a Prussian state. > Ditto Gontermann who is listed as a Westfallen and Berthold who > is listed as being born in Bavaria. Bavaria is a different kettle of fish, but in the end even the decision to confer or not would rest on the great Wilhelm. > Did they make these guys honorary Prussians, were they somehow "naturalized" > as Prussians, or am I missing something about what it means to be > "a Prussian"? I imagine being in the Reich, of which all staes/kingdoms were members, would be "naturalisation" enough. BTW, sometimes being a Prussian was purely nominal, especially if your home territory was subsumed after 1866. Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:31:09 -0500 From: huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: Re: Modelling Facilities (was Struts) Message-ID: >A little late, but here goes- both for "the art on the walls" question and >facilities: >our walls are dripping with my junk! >the work area ( the haz-mat zone): snip , up to my knees in shavings, >dust, empty CA bottles, lost parts, broken Xacto blades, trampled computer >printouts and broken dreams! >Robert K. Sounds just like my work area. Lots of room, all filled with excess stuff and a 12 sq. inch work area to do all the assembly, painting and finishing in. I have a project up comming that is out of the golden era of aviation anf haven't figured out how to get a 1/72 scale model of a plane with a 143ft wingspan in a 12sq inch work space. John Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:31:22 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi'" Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290549.PAA00972@mimmon.mim.com.au> Mick, >It would be unusual for "Flieger" to be actually flying. I'm currently at a coal mine in the middle of nowhere, so a long way from my books, but I bet I can find references to Flieger "Franz" being shot down/wounded or whatever in some of my references. It may have been unusual though. OTOH, it may also have been more common earlier in the war when, as someone mentioned, pilots were merely "drivers" > > >Tell that to Jasta 5. There were three PleM winning NCO pilots > flying > > >green tails > > And still weren't commissioned. This morning I could name all three but now I can only think of Otto Konnecke and Josef Mai. But I'm a little surprised if none were commissioned. (Suddenly recall that Paul Baumer was initially a Jasta 5 ace, but he's not one of the three I meant) >Technically field commissions >were open to anyone with the necessary qualifications......I would have >thought the PlM would have been an excellent qualification. Likewise. It also means that either this from your earlier post: > The question of eligability is a vexed one: for the Pour le M'erite > one had to be > a) a Prussian > b) an officer. is wrong or the answer regarding promotions is wrong. (or there were no hard and fast rules) Care to decide which ;-) Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:54:28 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: Shane, > I'm currently at a coal mine in the middle of nowhere, so a long way > from my books, That's no excuse! 80) but I bet I can find references to Flieger "Franz" being > shot down/wounded or whatever in some of my references. It may have been > unusual though. OTOH, it may also have been more common earlier in the > war when, as someone mentioned, pilots were merely "drivers" It may also be that it's being used completely generically, in the sense of "one who flies" rather than implying any rank at all. Aircraft were also referred to generically as "Flieger". > Likewise. > > It also means that either this from your earlier post: > > > The question of eligability is a vexed one: for the Pour le > M'erite > > one had to be > > a) a Prussian > > b) an officer. > > is wrong or the answer regarding promotions is wrong. (or there were no > hard and fast rules) I suspect the rules, like those for the category of "ace", became more fluid as the air-war progressed. Care to decide which ;-) Nope: I make no pretence of being the "Kaiserliche Majest"at". Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1133 **********************