WWI Digest 1132 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Modelling Facilities (was Struts) by KarrArt@aol.com 2) AERODROME MODELER UPDATE by Bob Pearson 3) Fw: A little more about the Hawkeye Dr.I by "Randy J. Ray" 4) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 5) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by KarrArt@aol.com 6) Curtiss H-12 and H-16 by Bob Pearson 7) New Roseplane by BStett3770@aol.com 8) Re: Backhausen Update by Joey Valenciano 9) RE: Backhausen Update by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 10) RE: AERODROME MODELER UPDATE by Pedro e Francisca Soares 11) Re: Nieuport Decals by Pedro e Francisca Soares 12) Re: ALBATROS FUSELAGE PLYWOOD RIPPLES by "David R.L. Laws" 13) German and UK Medals Questions by David & Carol Fletcher 14) Re: Nieuport Le Rhone by Mick Fauchon 15) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by Shane Weier 16) RE: AERODROME MODELER UPDATE by Bob Pearson 17) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by Mick Fauchon 18) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by Bob Pearson 19) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by "David R.L. Laws" 20) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by Mick Fauchon 21) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by Shane Weier 22) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by Shane Weier 23) RE: German and UK Medals Questions (1/2 off topic) by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 24) Enlisted Pilots? by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 25) Re: German and UK Medals Questions by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) 26) RE: German and UK Medals Questions by clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:03:10 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Modelling Facilities (was Struts) Message-ID: <79a79077.35be044f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-07-28 03:10:56 EDT, you write: << So how do you build a 1/32nd Gotha in a 3" x 3" space? One of those ship- in- a-bottle things, in reverse? Yours, James D. Gray >> After the clipboard space dwindled down to about 1 1/2" x 1 1/2", I got a yearninig look in my eyes and wife said "kitchen table?". So for a couple of weeks we had what my son called "adventure dinner" on a small card table in the living room while I put all the sub-assamblies together. This also means that the night the top wing went on, the screaming and cussing couldn't be heard from the bedroom end of the house! Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list , Jim Alley Subject: AERODROME MODELER UPDATE Message-ID: <17470958803511@KAIEN.COM> IT WORKS !!!!!!!! I just got a test shot of a CD-ROM from Phillip Anz-Meador. I had sent him a Jaz disc of some scans I did on my Mac in JPEG form. He put this into his IBM thingie and transferred it to a CD-ROM . . . . . and I was able to read the IBM disc on my Mac using INTERNET EXPLORER . . Just had a thought . . . . tried PHOTOSHOP and it worked to open it as well. So we know that both Mac and Evil Empire will work Okay next step is for me to send the various issues off to those who are going to do the scanning. I'll let everyone know as this progresses. I should also send out a new message in the next few weeks to each contributor saying whether they have requested it in CD or paper form Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:38:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Randy J. Ray" To: wwi Subject: Fw: A little more about the Hawkeye Dr.I Message-ID: <13758.6452.354576.768655@i2496147.nafohq.hp.com> >>>>> "Matt" == mbittner >>>>> wrote the following on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:13:10 -0400 Matt> Thought I would post Steve's rebuttal. His comments are Matt> preceeded by "SAH". [deleted] Most all of these I did discover when I started the project Friday night. I didn't know that Steve had done the masters for this kit, and having seen it, I hope he does more of them! I have in fact given up on the Revell parts entirely. :-) Randy -- """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Randy J. Ray 408-343-7578 randyr@nafohq.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT) From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807281851.LAA02822@ednet1.orednet.org> Cameron Lynch writes: > >Ok guys here's a strange request. Think of it as a game. Put the medals in >order of rank. -snips- >Britain > >VC >DFC >Military Medal >Military Cross >DSC >DSO I think it goes something like: Victoria Cross Distinguished Service Order Military Cross/Military Medal/Distinguished Service Cross (these are equivalent - the MC was for officers, the MM for enlisted personnel and the DSC for the Royal Navy) Distinguished Flying Cross/Distinguish Flying Medal (again, equivalent medals with the DFC for officers and the DFM for EM) Air Force Cross/Air Force Medal (the non-combat equivalents of of the DFC/DFM - 1918-1919 only) There were some other rank restrictions on these - for instance, the DSO was not awarded to ranks below captain while the MC was not awarded to officers above that rank. Thus, while technically, the DSO "outranks" the MC, they are equivalent in practice with the actual award determined by the awardee's rank rather than on the "level of gallantry" involved. All this from memory but I think it's close to correct. Yer on yer own on the German medals - I never could figure out that system. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:21:49 EDT From: KarrArt@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <2380f56d.35be24d1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-07-28 14:53:03 EDT, you write: << Yer on yer own on the German medals >> Complicated due to the various states-Prussia, Bavaria, etc. All them there Teutonic states had their own medals. Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:00:54 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Curtiss H-12 and H-16 Message-ID: <21005456303998@KAIEN.COM> Greetings all, Well I am finally working on the profiles of the Curtiss H-16, unfortunately I have misplaced the small GAs someone sent me a few months back and am curious as to the differences between the H-12, H-16 and Felixstowe. As far as I recall the Felixstowe F2A lifted its wings from the H-16, but what are the other differences between the three? Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:45:46 EDT From: BStett3770@aol.com To: wwi Subject: New Roseplane Message-ID: Hi Gang We just released our next kit. 1/72 Vacform RAF RE5 with resin details Surf on over to our site to view it. www.swiftsite.com/rosemonthobby Keep Modeling Barry Rosemont Hobby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:30:15 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Backhausen Update Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980728083015.00af2dc4@philonline.com.ph> >Backhausen >suggested that certain "design packages" exist that may yet contain >relevant information. Then, the next step in the search would be.....? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:18:59 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Backhausen Update Message-ID: <01BDBA4B.CFC8D180.panz-meador@vsti.com> either: (a) finding out from backhausen who the subcontractors were or (b) fishing out the ouija board unfortunately the latter has a real low data rate. plus, personal messages like D-E-A-T-H-H-U-R-T-S tend to clog the data stream with irrelevant information. phillip -----Original Message----- From: Joey Valenciano [SMTP:joeyval@philonline.com.ph] Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 5:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Backhausen Update >Backhausen >suggested that certain "design packages" exist that may yet contain >relevant information. Then, the next step in the search would be.....? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@philonline.com. sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:55:07 +0200 From: Pedro e Francisca Soares To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: AERODROME MODELER UPDATE Message-ID: <01BDBA80.E6342840@fei1-p14.telepac.pt> -----Original Message----- From: Bob Pearson [SMTP:bpearson@kaien.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 7:45 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: AERODROME MODELER UPDATE IT WORKS !!!!!!!! Great!!!!! (I'm happy for you since I'm a pc user and I never doubted it = would work ;->>>>. Okay next step is for me to send the various issues off to those who are going to do the scanning. I'll let everyone know as this progresses.=20 Bob, IIRC there were some issues missing on the collection you bought = and also IIRC there were some friends on the list who might have the = missing pieces of the puzzle so my question is: would it be possible to = get the whole thing? maybe those who have the missing numbers would be = willing to lend photocopies for scanning? Just a thought.... 2 tostoes worth Regards, Bob Pearson Um abraco Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:34:41 +0200 From: Pedro e Francisca Soares To: "WW1 Modeling List (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Nieuport Decals Message-ID: <01BDBA80.F17FB2A0@fei1-p14.telepac.pt> Hi you all, and especially you Matt, let me add something to your Nieuport decal list. Yesterday I bought = Carpena Decals sheet 72.39 "GUYNEMER et les CIGOGNES" (1/72 of course, = though I suspect there should be a Braille counterpart). Contents: Ni. X (18 metres) n. ? "Vieux-Charles" Esc. N.3.=20 Vauciennes (Oise) December 1915-Feb. 1916 Sergent Georges Guynemer 2 aircraft Nieuport Ni XI (13 metres) "Bebe Nieuport" n. 836 (?) "Vieux Charles" Esc. N.3 (Verdun) Vauciennes (Oise) March 1916 Sous-Lieutenant Georges Guynemer Ni. XVII n. 1531 a/c n.2 with "Vieux Charles" on pennant Esc. N.3 Cachy (Somme) 25-28 July 1916 Sous-Lieutenant Georges Guynemer The sheet goes on with decals for Guynemer's SPAD's VII / XII (Canon) / = XIII and 2 off topic a/c of the Cigognes Sq.: a P-47D and a DH Vampire. Pretty good stuff at the equivalent of 6 USD at current exchage rate 1 = USD =3D 180 PTE Um abraco pedro ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:27:09 +0000 From: "David R.L. Laws" To: wwi Subject: Re: ALBATROS FUSELAGE PLYWOOD RIPPLES Message-ID: <35BEEAED.3D89@webtime.com.au> Hello to all, A wee while back I posted a query on ply fuselage ripples - Last Saturday when opening a pre-packaged freezer bag I saw that the foodstuff was packed in a plunge moulded c. 3 thou card container. 0n closer examination the card showed quite a convincing ripple-like effect with elongated bubbles and other surface irregulaties. I was reminded of skinning techniques and gave it a try on the redoubtable SMER Alb D III - V (?) - Viola' !!! The effect, certainly for a painted finish ( I do ply fuselages in wood now ) was VERY true to the full size " rippling " so evident in photographs - You might care to raid the rubbish bin ( or even offer to do some cooking ) on the strength of this and give it a try ! For Australian readers the package was a Four n' Twenty pie 4 pack REGARDS DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:37:19 -0700 From: David & Carol Fletcher To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <35BE60AF.39DF@mars.ark.com> For the German decorations, you will have to rely on others. Except that I don't think the pilot's badge belongs in the list - it is a military qualification, not a decoration. For the British decorations, the order is as follows: VC DSO DSC Military Cross DFC Military Medal These last three crosses are basically equivalents in terms of action needed to warrant the award, but are prioritized in the order of "seniority of service" ie., the RNAS awarded a DSC where the RFC awarded a MC and the RAF, the most junior service, awarded a DFC. Except for the Victoria Cross, George Cross and George Medal, "medals" were generally awarded to "other ranks" and "crosses" to officers. If you need more on the priority of decorations, check "The Source Book of the RAF" by Ken Delve, Airlife, 1994, ISBN 1 85310 451 5. Dave Fletcher, SSM, NATO "Former Yugoslavia" Medal, CD and two clasps (all of which, combined with 50 cents, will get a cup of coffee) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:44:29 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Nieuport Le Rhone Message-ID: Paul, > I have the engine completed for my Hobbycraft Nie 17-to-a-23 project, = > except for the plug wires. All my photos (Janes, etc.) of a Le Rhone are = > without the wires attached. As I will firmly attach the engine so it will = > not rotate, is it fit and proper to just glue the wires somewhere to the = > engine rear where they won't be seen, or is there some type of "harness" = > that should be used? TIA The wires run from the plugs to a ring on the rear face of the engine, the entry point of the wires being below and slightly to the right of the plugs. [From (failing) memoey] The ring brushes against the nose of the magneto, which protrudes through the fire-wall, from which source the plugs draw their charge. If you know anyone who has the Williams Bros. large scale [i.e. muuuuch larger than 1/32!], the destructions for this kit will explain it all quite clearly......even in diagrams. Having built a detailed Le Rh^one Monosoupape in 1/48, the LR in 1/32 is a piece of cake 80) If the above is unclear, just get back to me. Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:54:09 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290010.KAA28736@mimmon.mim.com.au> Bill wrote in response to Cam: >I think it goes something like: (my summary) >VC >DSO >DFC/DFM >AFC/AFM This agrees with the little pamphlet I was issued in my Army days, and though I'm an Aussie, we used the same system of honours when I joined up ye many years ago. >There were some other rank restrictions on these - for instance, The resrtictions look correct to me as well. I can add that there were other restrictions aside from rank and service, some of which were restriction by tradition, others were restriction by charter (written rules) >Thus, >while technically, the DSO "outranks" the MC, they are >equivalent in practice with the actual award determined by >the awardee's rank rather than on the "level of gallantry" >involved. An example of restriction by charter is that originally the VC could only be awarded for a single action of supreme individual bravery in the face of the enemy (ie, under fire). This was later changed so that sustained bravery of exceptional level under fire could also be awarded. The only example which comes quickly to mind is WW2 bomber leader Leonard Cheshire. AFAIK the original charter applied during WW1. An example of restriction by tradition is that the VC was considered to be for acts of bravery so incredible that no-one would ever be likely to win one twice. Consequently Bills comment above ">equivalent in practice with the actual award determined by >the awardee's rank rather than on the "level of gallantry" >involved. " requiring the caveat that the level of gallantry need not directly decide the award given. An example is Albert Jacka, who won a VC at Lone Pine (Galipolli) and was twice recommended for a second VC in France. Both later citations show acts which on the face of it showed higher gallantry than the VC citation, but the awards were instead reduced to the MC on the grounds of tradition. AFAIK no bar was awarded to the VC in WW1, though it certainly happened in WW2. (no Aussie ever, one Kiwi, no idea how many Poms, but I bet the first break in tradition was for a local ;-) >All this from memory but I think it's close to correct. Looks to match my refs pretty closely ! >Yer on yer own on the German medals - I never could figure out >that system. You certainly have a problem here since Germany was effectively a Federation of smaller nations with their own award systems. Makes it difficult to compare . Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:03:57 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: RE: AERODROME MODELER UPDATE Message-ID: <00035739604403@KAIEN.COM> Our gallant head roadie wrote . . . > Bob, IIRC there were some issues missing on the collection you bought = > and also IIRC there were some friends on the list who might have the = > missing pieces of the puzzle so my question is: would it be possible to = > get the whole thing? maybe those who have the missing numbers would be = > willing to lend photocopies for scanning? Pedro, Good point, I have all issues from the November-December 1975 ones and Barry is sending me the March-April 1975 issue, anyone having earlier (1974 or 1975) please forward them to me. Regards, Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:06:53 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: Cameron, > Prussians...etc. Let us just assume the individual in question was > eligible. What order would they go in from highest to lowest? I.E in what > order would you normally get them? Thanks in advance. The question of eligability is a vexed one: for the Pour le M'erite one had to be a) a Prussian b) an officer. Offiziere der Reserve were, sadly, ineligable. The Iron Crosses had to be gained in order, as the lower oder was a pre-requisite for the higher, i.e. EK I, EK II, Ritterkreuz, Gro3es Kreuz. My ranking would be: Pour le M'erite [Blue Max] Grand Cross [Gro3es Kreuz d. EK] Knight's Cross [Ritterkreuz d. EK] EK I EK II The pilot's badge, as somebody has already pointed out, does not figure in it, as it is a qualification, not a decoration. The above is my tentative order, but I'm willing to take advice if somebody knows better, Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:11:45 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <00114553904426@KAIEN.COM> Shane wrote . . . > An example of restriction by charter is that originally the VC could > only be awarded for a single action of supreme individual bravery in the > face of the enemy (ie, under fire). This was later changed so that > sustained bravery of exceptional level under fire could also be awarded. > The only example which comes quickly to mind is WW2 bomber leader > Leonard Cheshire. AFAIK the original charter applied during WW1. I would put forward Ball, Mannock and Proctor as having won the VC for periods of sustained activity, rather than a particular incident. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:17:42 +0000 From: "David R.L. Laws" To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <35BEF6C6.4801@webtime.com.au> Cameron Lynch wrote: > > Ok guys here's a strange request. Think of it as a game. Put the medals in order of rank. > > Britain > 1. VC 5. DFC 6. Military Medal 4. Military Cross 3. DSC 2. DSO Orders ( DSO etc.. ) rank second after the VC ( or GC/ GM ) Because the Navy is the Senior service The DSC is worn before the MC and DFC, the Army being senior to Air Force, the DFC is worn after the MC ( Isn't there a story about a Second War ? Naval type awarded the DFC who was instructed to substitute that ribbon for the DSC - Anyone heard this It comes out of the convoy Sea Hurricane pilots tales as I recall or am I muddled ? ) The M Medal being a decoration awarded to " other ( non-commissioned ) Ranks " follows any Cross ( officer only decoration ) Thus we have VC, DSO, MC, MM ) - Where a person has Non-commissioned and commissioned decorations Medals follow any Cross awarded VC, DSO, MC, DFC, MM, DFM ... There's one exception to that which comes to mind and that is the rather rare CGM ( Conspicuous Gallantry Medal ) which is worn after the VC and/ or GC/ GM ( George Cross/ Medal ) but before the Crosses/ other medals. Thus we have VC, CGM, DSO, DFC, ... The CGM will sometimes/ very rarely be awarded where the VC recommendation is not approved although one has a grave responsibility in making a recommendation for a gallantry award since, in the British and Australian services it can be, and usually is an " all or nothing " affair. My Grandfather for example was recommended for the VC on Galipolli and recieved nothing when the recommendation for THAT award was not approved (Mjr ) David R.L. Laws ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:17:54 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: Shane, > You certainly have a problem here since Germany was effectively a > Federation of smaller nations with their own award systems. Makes it > difficult to compare . You're right: it can get quite complicated. Technically, Germany was one Reich after 1871, but in practical terms, that didn't always work. Prussia, being the largest kingdom, was of course the leading light, but other kingdoms, notably Bavaria and Saxony, continued to supply their own equipment and issue their own decorations. W"urttemberg, although technically Prussian, is a case in point, as are the Hanseatic Towns [Hamburg/Bremen/L"ubeck], although the relevant Prussian "distinctions" would "rank" higher than the local one. Each kingdom/state had its own Kriegsdienstkreuz [War Service Cross], which "ranked" right at the bottom of the list. Have I succeeded in suitably clouding the issue? 80) Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:55:33 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290112.LAA29247@mimmon.mim.com.au> Mick, Cam et al: > The pilot's badge, as somebody has already pointed out, does not >figure in it, as it is a qualification, not a decoration. Actually, this matter of qualifications and decorations has prompted another thought. Remember that some of the German states awarded titles of nobility "knighthoods" as well (Ritter), and these have no requirement for gallantry, though it may be part of the reason for the award. And the same applies within the Commonwealth nations for that matter. Please (PLEASE) don't ask me which has precedence over which, or where the medals of the military divisions of various knighthoods fit in the order of precedence Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:01:37 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290118.LAA29313@mimmon.mim.com.au> Bob, > >> An example of restriction by charter is that originally the VC > could > >> only be awarded for a single action of supreme individual bravery > in the > >> face of the enemy (ie, under fire. > >I would put forward Ball, Mannock and Proctor as having won the VC for >periods of sustained activity, rather than a particular incident. This is probably so though it was common to write the citation for a single incident when the reality was that the award was for sustained bravery. It is *very* interesting to walk through the gallery at the Australian War Memorial which has the largest collection of VC's anywhere, and read the citations. It's plain from reading the citations alongside that some of the VC's were either awarded for lesser (though still extraordinary) actions OR were awarded for continuous gallantry by use of a bureaucratic fiction. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:09:42 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions (1/2 off topic) Message-ID: <01BDBA63.A98C1320.panz-meador@vsti.com> per my previous message, the "medals" section of "the aerodrome" web page can be found at: http://theaerodrome.com/medals.html not in-depth at all, and the o'connor books retain their earlier recommendation. however, pictures are provided of at least the major medals, with some info on the medal. now, off-topic: according to a guy i worked for while in high school, the requirements for the south vietnamese cross of gallantry was a carton of marlboroughs. different strokes, eh? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Shane Weier [SMTP:SDW@qld.mim.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 8:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Mick, Cam et al: > The pilot's badge, as somebody has already pointed out, does not >figure in it, as it is a qualification, not a decoration. Actually, this matter of qualifications and decorations has prompted another thought. Remember that some of the German states awarded titles of nobility "knighthoods" as well (Ritter), and these have no requirement for gallantry, though it may be part of the reason for the award. And the same applies within the Commonwealth nations for that matter. Please (PLEASE) don't ask me which has precedence over which, or where the medals of the military divisions of various knighthoods fit in the order of precedence Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:38 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Enlisted Pilots? Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23470@milehigh.denver.net> I know that the French widely used enlisted pilots during WWI. Did the other combatants or were they unusual? Cameron Lynch "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:40 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: Re: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23479@milehigh.denver.net> >For the German decorations, you will have to rely on others. Except >that I don't think the pilot's badge belongs in the list - it is a >military qualification, not a decoration. Perfect. Thank you kindly. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:29:43 -0600 (MDT) From: clynch@denver.net (Cameron Lynch) To: wwi Subject: RE: German and UK Medals Questions Message-ID: <199807290129.TAA23487@milehigh.denver.net> >This agrees with the little pamphlet I was issued in my Army days, and >though I'm an Aussie, we used the same system of honours when I joined >up ye many years ago. Thank you kindly for your reply. Cameron "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert Humphrey 1911-1978 __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright (C) 1998. Cameron Lynch. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1132 **********************