WWI Digest 1014 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Additions to Cyberary (Cybernetic Library) by Graham Nash 2) Off-topic Request by Graham Nash 3) Re: Capronis by mbittner@juno.com 4) 1/48th For Sale by mbittner@juno.com 5) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Sandy Adam" 6) RE: Wright-Pat D VII by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 7) Re: Atelier Noix by Charles Hart 8) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Matthew Zivich 9) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:& North. Italian Cucina by Matthew Zivich 10) Additions to Cyberary (Cybernetic Library) by Geoff Smith 11) Swirling confusion by Charles Hart 12) RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN by Matthew Zivich 13) RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 14) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Patrick Padovan 15) Re: Swirling confusion by Matthew Zivich 16) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 17) SWORL FABRIC anyone listening ???? by Charles Hart 18) RE: Swirling confusion by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 19) RE: "Offensive Patrol" by Patrick Padovan 20) RE: SWORL FABRIC anyone listening ???? by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:23:34 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: World War 1 Modelling List Subject: Additions to Cyberary (Cybernetic Library) Message-ID: <199805070913.AA01008@egate2.citicorp.com> Following some correspondance with Tom Hansen, I've just completed scans of on-topic articles from early editions of Airfix magazine. If anyone would like them please contact me off-list. The series include the 504 articles mentioned previously. Contents are: Aircraft Aircraft Manufacturer Type Year Month Plan 72nd Colours Comments Sopwith Camel 1967 12 No No Yes Culley Albatros D.III 1968 9 No No No=09 Albatros D.V 1968 9 No No Yes Waldhausen Fokker D.VII 1968 9 No No Yes Udet Germany Camoflg Schemes 1968 9 No No Yes 4 & 5 colour lozenge Hannover CL.III 1968 9 No No Yes=09 Germany Camoflg Schemes 1968 10 No No Yes 4 & 5 colour lozenge Avro 504 1969 1 No No Yes=09 Avro 504 1969 2 No No Yes=09 Avro 504N 1969 2 No No Yes=09 R.A.F. B.E.2a/b1969 4 No No No Bombing Colours Part 1 R.A.F. B.E.2c/d1969 4 No No No Bombing Colours Part 1 R.A.F. R.E.1 1969 4 No No No Bombing Colours Part 1 Short 184 1969 4 No No No Bombing Colours Part 1 Sopwith Pup 1969 4 Yes Yes Yes=09 R.A.F. B.E.12 1969 5 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 2 R.A.F. B.E.2c/d1969 5 No No No Bombing Colours Part 2 R.A.F. F.E.2b 1969 5 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 2 Sopwith 1 =BD Str 1969 5 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 2 Sopwith Camel 1969 5 No No Yes=09 Airco D.H.4 1969 6 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 3 Airco D.H.9 1969 6 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 3 Fokker Dr.I 1969 7 Yes Yes Yes=09 Handley Page 0/100 1969 7 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 4 Handley Page 0/400 1969 7 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 4 Handley Page V/1500 1969 7 No No No Bombing Colours Part 4 A.E.G. G.IV 1969 8 No No No Bombing Colours Part 5 Airco D.H.9A 1969 8 No No No Bombing Colours Part 5 Fokker Dr.I 1969 8 No No Yes=09 Handley Page 0/100 1969 8 No No No Bombing Colours Part 5 Handley Page 0/400 1969 8 No No No Bombing Colours Part 5 Airco D.H.9A 1969 10 No No Yes Bombing Colours Part 7 Fokker Dr.I 1969 10 Yes Yes Yes=09 Sopwith Baby 1969 11 Yes Yes Yes=09 Sopwith Camel 1969 12 No No Yes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:25:15 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: World War 1 Modelling List Subject: Off-topic Request Message-ID: <199805070914.AA01061@egate2.citicorp.com> Does anyone out there have Aircraft of the Fighting Powers Vol III, and could copy/scan the Douglas DC-2 plan and write-up for me? Many thanks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 04:42:45 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Capronis Message-ID: <19980507.044835.8870.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Wed, 6 May 1998 21:20:22 -0400 Michelle and Rory Goodwin writes: >Did Windsock ever run an article on Caproni bombers, such as Ca.33s, >36s, or whichever type LaGuardia's boys flew in combat? I only list the following as Ca.3, so I'm not sure of the sub-type: Warbirds Vol 9 No 4 Windsock Vol 5 No 1, Vol 6 No 6 (large feature article w/1/72nd plans), Vol 8 No 6 provides a Meikraft review WW1 Aero #134 - Cockpits/Instruments That's all I have. Matt Bittner _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:07:51 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: 1/48th For Sale Message-ID: <19980507.050752.18966.0.mbittner@juno.com> In trying to generate some extra modeling cash, I'm selling off almost all of the rest of the 1/48th models I own. Here's a list: Blue Max Fokker Dr.I Eduard Hannover Cl.IIIa Glencoe Albatros D.III Glencoe Oeffag Albatros D.III Glencoe Nieuport 28 with Atlee "correction" set Testors Nieuport 17 I also have a couple of off topic P-61's with conversions I'm letting go as well. Private email if interested. I hate to do this, but I'm going to be taking offers on the above, and will let it go to the higher bidder. I know this is kind of sleazy but I really need the money, especially for all those Toko Nie.11's I plan on buying. :-) Matt Bittner nb: Temske (Temens) MoS Type I np: Computer fan in G-minor nr: Nothing _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:09:59 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <199805071012.LAA04098@beryl.sol.co.uk> Hi Rob - I do not wish to pick any nits with you but suggest you look at the Fokker D.II pictures referred to, to see how the aeroplane's outline is broken up. These are extensively repoduced in many books and one example to hand is photo 42 in Alex Imrie's Fokker Fighters of WW1 - Kissenberth flying over Colmar. It seems obvious to me that this camouflage would have the dual effects of hiding the shape of the plane on the ground / from above in flight whilst also breaking up the shape to make it a less well defined target. If you choose to state that this second effect was not of benefit then you are welcome to your opinion - I however think the benefits would have been obvious. I had thought this so obvious in fact that I did not even bother to mention the experiments carried out at Orfordness in 1918. Whilst proving that it was not worth carrying this to such extremes, the very existence of these trials shows an awareness of the benefits. Sandy PS I do not wish to debate Italian geography or cuisine on-line with you - if you think the locals only eat risotto and not pasta then I suggest your memory is clouded by the local wines. I apologise for the typo of transmigrating Barolo - I of course meant Bardolino. I too took the train from Milan to Venice last February and all I could see on either side outside the towns were olive groves and brown earth. Of course there is a large amount of rice grown in the Po valley - but nothing compared to the vast expanses of wheat on either side of the river margins. A picture of a SE Asia-type vista of endless waterlogged paddies - over which grey aircraft would be invisible is totally misleading however. The predominant colours in the landscape for most of the flying days of the year are rich burnt earths and foliage and bright, bright blue skies. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:34:27 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Wright-Pat D VII Message-ID: <01BD799B.54CF3780.panz-meador@vsti.com> dave: i believe that the only article used from cole palen's plane was the motor. the museum's replice (cole palen's plane) had been turned over to roger freeman for salvage of any usable parts. only the motor was used, as it's apparently the original mercedes. the propeller was taken from war booty stocks in storage since the 20s. i believe vintage aviation services [(830) 914-2219] built the remainder of the a/c. roger mentioned that the correct 4 color loz. was based on OAW records. see "aeroplane monthly", november 1997, pp. 24-7 for details. there may be pix of the cole palen replica in squadron's "fokker d.vii in action", as i seem to recall mention of the replica's fokker C-type heritage as well. phillp -----Original Message----- From: Dave Watts [SMTP:davew#mail.wpds.net@on-net.net] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 1:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Wright-Pat D VII On the subject of the Wright Pat D VII. This project has to be interpreted correctly. This was Cole Palen's aircraft, and he had patched up this bastard from all kinds of sources. The plane never contained any actual D.VII. components. To the best of my knowledge, it was a Travel Air fuselage with Fokker C.I. wings. Cole clipped the wings to give it more of a D.VII. proportion. I have some of the clipped wing pieces which Cole sent to Julius "Rosy" Head in Chicago in the 1960's for use with his project. When Cole's aircraft came to Wright Pat, USAFM, they decided to restore the aircraft. I am not certain as to the depth of knowledge they had on the aircraft's lineage, but this was certainly a decision that would forever dictate the planes fate. I am guessing that they presumed it was a cobbled D.VII. and proceeded on that assumption for "restoration". In retrospect one could second guess that decision, in my opinion, there were four directions that could have been taken with the aircraft. One; Restore it as a Travel Air, and follow that through. You would disregard the wings and use or re fabricate what was needed. Two; Restore it as a Fokker CI., and follow that through, utilizing the wings only. Three; "Restore" it as a Fokker D.VII. Upon analyses, that would really mean setting the entire aircraft aside, and building a replica, utilizing the motor, possibly the radiator, and any fittings or hardware that would be similar to original German pieces. Four; Realize that any restoration is not going to be that simple, and would only utilize a few components of the base aircraft. Therefore being the bastard it is, recognize the aircraft for what it is, a Cole Palen Rhinebeck air show plane. By the fact that it remained in its' form for at least 35 years, and the notoriety of Cole's air show, to some degree, made it a part of Americana, and would illustrate the "barnstormer" entertainment usage of WWI type of planes. The USAFM had Roger Freeman "restore" the "D.VII", and obviously he ran into some contradictions. He did only what he could and basically made them a D.VII. replica with the motor and a few bits from Cole's plane incorporated into the project. There are a number of major components, not up to originally designed D.VII. specified components, but there is much that is very good, and for what it is, a non intended replica instead of a restoration, it serves its' purpose well. These are my opinions and I do not have all the facts as to how this project transpired, and do not want to cast any aspersions on any party, nor do I think anyone was at any fault, I believe things progressed, and once the journey had begun down the road it was difficult to stop or turn around. Best to All, Dave W. PS. The guy who did the heart of the 5 color research was Manfred Thiemeyer, (sic?). I visited his home and will be trying to work out of him some solid information on the 4 color research. He has an impressive original fabric collection. When I visited him, he was working on the perfect hexagonal naval fabric. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:15:51 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Atelier Noix Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-05-06 21:39:53 EDT, you write: > ><< 1/72 Ansaldo A.1. Balilla > by T.C. Berg Ltd. / Atelier Noix, >> > >Hi Alberto > >As far as I know the kits were made about 8 -9 years ago, ( we stocked them >when they were made)Long since out of production. >They had to be the some of the best resins ever made. > >You got yourself a great find. Most of the kits going for $50+ up on the >collectors market. > >They made the following: > >Thomas Morse Scout >Nieuport 11 >Nieuport 10 >Bristol Scout >Sopwith Tabloid >Ansaldo A.1 > >Keep Modeling >Barry >Rosemont Hobby Check the latest Hannants sale list (kindly posted by Graham Nash. The Thomas Morse Scout, Bristol Scout and Sopwith Tabloid are listed for 9.99 GBP (about US$17.00). I agree beautiful models. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:44:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: David: Though we may be inclined to agree with you about the possibility of hand-brushed sworl/swirl camo., because of the obvious brush marks, that does not necessarily preclude the possibility of serigraphy which can duplicate brush strokes as well depending upon the kind of stencil used. Based on Phillip A-M's recent research on the firm that printed the fabric and his comments apparently based on the company's website ("Art Deco-ey"), Jugenstil was alive and well and made its mark on the War. (If you are familiar with the art work of Mackentosh and the Glasgow School or the floral designs of the Amer. Arch. Louis Sullivan you'll see a similarity because of this pervasive international style.) Matthew Zivich On Wed, 6 May 1998, David R.L. Laws wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen a photograph of this camo in closeup - It's hand painted and > clearly shows the marks of the brush bristles splaying out at the tail > end of the brush strokes - > > The pic shows a pilot EITHER in the cockpit ( from the stb side ) with > the como detail showing on the lower wing OR it's the pilot standing at > the tail ( stb side again ) with the painted camo evident on the tail > plane > > Does this ring a bell with anyone ? - I was trying to turn up this > picture for Peter ( who started this thread ) and its now become ( don't > you hate this when it happens !!! ) like the hunt for the Holy Grail ( > Monty Python Version !!! ) > > DAVID > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:19:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:& North. Italian Cucina Message-ID: And let's not forget polenta as well. On Thu, 7 May 1998, Sandy Adam wrote: > Hi Rob - I do not wish to pick any nits with you but suggest you look at > the Fokker D.II pictures referred to, to see how the aeroplane's outline is > broken up. These are extensively repoduced in many books and one example to > hand is photo 42 in Alex Imrie's Fokker Fighters of WW1 - Kissenberth > flying over Colmar. > > It seems obvious to me that this camouflage would have the dual effects of > hiding the shape of the plane on the ground / from above in flight whilst > also breaking up the shape to make it a less well defined target. If you > choose to state that this second effect was not of benefit then you are > welcome to your opinion - I however think the benefits would have been > obvious. > > I had thought this so obvious in fact that I did not even bother to mention > the experiments carried out at Orfordness in 1918. Whilst proving that it > was not worth carrying this to such extremes, the very existence of these > trials shows an awareness of the benefits. > > Sandy > > PS I do not wish to debate Italian geography or cuisine on-line with you - > if you think the locals only eat risotto and not pasta then I suggest your > memory is clouded by the local wines. I apologise for the typo of > transmigrating Barolo - I of course meant Bardolino. > I too took the train from Milan to Venice last February and all I could see > on either side outside the towns were olive groves and brown earth. > Of course there is a large amount of rice grown in the Po valley - but > nothing compared to the vast expanses of wheat on either side of the river > margins. A picture of a SE Asia-type vista of endless waterlogged paddies - > over which grey aircraft would be invisible is totally misleading however. > The predominant colours in the landscape for most of the flying days of the > year are rich burnt earths and foliage and bright, bright blue skies. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:21:34 -0400 From: Geoff Smith To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Additions to Cyberary (Cybernetic Library) Message-ID: <199805071321_MC2-3C3F-A6D5@compuserve.com> Graham, Don't want to be greedy, but I'd appreciate the following : Manufacturer Type Year Month Plan 72nd Colours Comments Avro 504 1969 1 No No Yes=3D09 Avro 504 1969 2 No No Yes=3D09 Sopwith Baby 1969 11 Yes Yes Yes=3D09 Many thanks, Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:08:30 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Swirling confusion Message-ID: Matthew, I'm afraid that you are muddying the waters here. There are a couple of different A-H camouflage patterns that use "swirl" or "sworl" type patterns. There is a screen printed fabric which has already been discussed. It appeared late in the war and was used on apparently a small number of airframes. There is also a PAINTED camouflage pattern of swirls applied with a brush to some Albatros (Hansa-Brandenburgs also ??) in selected Fliks. I would consult a few references to see which Fliks used this pattern. This is the "Brumowski Distribution" which Americal/Gryphon has put into decal form. FWIW Americal/Gryphon has elected not to produce a decal of the "sworl" fabric due to lack of reliable documentation of the colors used. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu >David: > > Though we may be inclined to agree with you about the possibility >of hand-brushed sworl/swirl camo., because of the obvious brush marks, >that does not necessarily preclude the possibility of serigraphy which can >duplicate brush strokes as well depending upon the kind of stencil used. > Based on Phillip A-M's recent research on the firm that printed >the fabric and his comments apparently based on the company's website >("Art Deco-ey"), Jugenstil was alive and well and made its mark on the >War. (If you are familiar with the art work of Mackentosh and the Glasgow >School or the floral designs of the Amer. Arch. Louis Sullivan you'll see >a similarity because of this pervasive international style.) > >Matthew Zivich >On Wed, 6 May 1998, David R.L. Laws wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I've seen a photograph of this camo in closeup - It's hand painted and >> clearly shows the marks of the brush bristles splaying out at the tail >> end of the brush strokes - >> >> The pic shows a pilot EITHER in the cockpit ( from the stb side ) with >> the como detail showing on the lower wing OR it's the pilot standing at >> the tail ( stb side again ) with the painted camo evident on the tail >> plane >> >> Does this ring a bell with anyone ? - I was trying to turn up this >> picture for Peter ( who started this thread ) and its now become ( don't >> you hate this when it happens !!! ) like the hunt for the Holy Grail ( >> Monty Python Version !!! ) >> >> DAVID >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:10:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN Message-ID: Phillip: I got onto Backhausen's website, very impressive. IAC the FMP A-H book authors probably contacted this company as well when they were doing their research so they probably published their results, if any, right? (I don't have this book or any other A-H aircraft book.) Much has been said recently about Dr. M. O'Connor's research for his excellent book, and I'm sure he must have contacted Backhausen. Is it premature to suggest his results were from Backhausen and therefore final? I remain puzzled at this point. MZ On Wed, 6 May 1998, Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador wrote: > matthew: > > patrick suggested i mention this to the world at large. after thinking > about the sworl pattern colors yesterday, i consulted the FMP A-H book to > see who manufactured it. it was the vienese firm of j. backhausen and > sons. i e-mailed the maker of the stuff (www.backhausen.com) to see if > they have any records in their archives. i see now why the stuff looked > art-deco'ey to me--they specialize in the stuff. at any rate, perhaps > they'll at least clear up the 3/4 color controversy if the records are > still available. if > others are interested, you might check out the site. after all, according > to "alice's restaurant massacre in 3 part harmony", one's just a nut, and > they'll put you in jail; two, and they'll think you're "flaming embers" and > they'll still put you in jail; but three, just three, and they'll think > it's a conspiracy...and might actually respond. who knows? if i hear > anything, i'll let you know. > > can't wait to see the toko salamander in trench camo... > > phillip > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Zivich [SMTP:mzivich@svsu.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 3:51 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" > > Patrick, > > The Pegasus Salamander uses asymmetrical placement and size of > the wing insignia as well. > > MZ > > On Wed, 6 May 1998, Patrick Padovan wrote: > > > Re offset National Markings to obscure aiming point, as mentioned by > > Phillip: another example from the second round of the great war is > > provided by the Poles on their Pz.11s, etc. The upper wing checkerboards > > were applied unevenly- one of them inboard, the other outboard- for this > > very reason. Not on-topic, but interesting to me. > > Ciao, Patrick > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Patrick Padovan > > e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:35:49 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN Message-ID: <01BD79BD.0CAD3660.panz-meador@vsti.com> matthew: at this point i don't know. the statement made in the FMP A-H book is: "textile experts who have examined the Austrian pattern claim that the fabric could only have been produced by hand-printing in 1918 which could limit the available supply." this implies to me that dr. o'connor did not examine the fabric. also, backhausen and sons was contracted with by flars to produce the material in large quantities and is _evidently_ the firm which produced the fabric for Oeffag. earlier, two other firms had produced "prototype" fabrics "in the German style." (FWIW). these patterns were evidently used on two phoenix-built brandenburg C.Is (329.05 & 329.06)--the top wings were covered. phillip -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Zivich [SMTP:mzivich@svsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 1:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN Phillip: I got onto Backhausen's website, very impressive. IAC the FMP A-H book authors probably contacted this company as well when they were doing their research so they probably published their results, if any, right? (I don't have this book or any other A-H aircraft book.) Much has been said recently about Dr. M. O'Connor's research for his excellent book, and I'm sure he must have contacted Backhausen. Is it premature to suggest his results were from Backhausen and therefore final? I remain puzzled at this point. MZ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:41:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: Gents: re the recent discussion of painted swirl camo and brush strokes, etc: I may be wrong, quite possibly am, but aren't we getting confused between different "Swirl" camo types? The HB D.I was, according to the sources I've seen, never finished in the printed type of Swirl camo. Some examples were (and again, I'm not trying to be didactic here, honestly!) finished in what Americal refer to as the "Bromowski distribution", i.e., swirls of hand-painted ochre or mustard over light or dark green. This would certainly account for brush strokes being present. The printed camo, with its wild "paisley curtain" pattern, was (and again, this is based soley on what I've read, correct me by all means if you have other information!) only applied to --some, not by any means all-- Oef. Alb. D-IIIs in 1918. Having said this, I, too, have not yet seen the photo of the HB D.I in the new FMP book. If this photo isn't the so-called "Bromowski Distribution," type of camo, could it be some other hand-painted pattern? Regards, Patrick P.S. Could somebody who has this book (Matt Bittner?) please quote the caption of the aforementioned photo in the FMP HB D-I book? Does it shed any light? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:38:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Swirling confusion Message-ID: Charles, Thank you for the clarification. I'm beginning to learn more about the subject. However, would it be safe to say that if the sworl pattern was manufactured by Backhausen they probably don't have a record of the colors used, since they surely would have been contacted by Dr. O'Connor to be used in his book. And it has been stated that Dr.O'C used photos to arrive at his colors for the sworl. Also is the swirl pattern the smaller, cruder marks suggested in the Glencoe kit for Fred. Navratil, among others, for example? If so, I do recognize the difference between the two, and I have a better understanding of the methods of application. Matthew Z On Thu, 7 May 1998, Charles Hart wrote: > Matthew, > > I'm afraid that you are muddying the waters here. There are a couple > of different A-H camouflage patterns that use "swirl" or "sworl" type > patterns. There is a screen printed fabric which has already been > discussed. It appeared late in the war and was used on apparently a small > number of airframes. > > There is also a PAINTED camouflage pattern of swirls applied with a > brush to some Albatros (Hansa-Brandenburgs also ??) in selected Fliks. I > would consult a few references to see which Fliks used this pattern. This > is the "Brumowski Distribution" which Americal/Gryphon has put into decal > form. > > FWIW Americal/Gryphon has elected not to produce a decal of the > "sworl" fabric due to lack of reliable documentation of the colors used. > > Charles > > hartc@spot.colorado.edu > > > >David: > > > > Though we may be inclined to agree with you about the possibility > >of hand-brushed sworl/swirl camo., because of the obvious brush marks, > >that does not necessarily preclude the possibility of serigraphy which can > >duplicate brush strokes as well depending upon the kind of stencil used. > > Based on Phillip A-M's recent research on the firm that printed > >the fabric and his comments apparently based on the company's website > >("Art Deco-ey"), Jugenstil was alive and well and made its mark on the > >War. (If you are familiar with the art work of Mackentosh and the Glasgow > >School or the floral designs of the Amer. Arch. Louis Sullivan you'll see > >a similarity because of this pervasive international style.) > > > >Matthew Zivich > >On Wed, 6 May 1998, David R.L. Laws wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I've seen a photograph of this camo in closeup - It's hand painted and > >> clearly shows the marks of the brush bristles splaying out at the tail > >> end of the brush strokes - > >> > >> The pic shows a pilot EITHER in the cockpit ( from the stb side ) with > >> the como detail showing on the lower wing OR it's the pilot standing at > >> the tail ( stb side again ) with the painted camo evident on the tail > >> plane > >> > >> Does this ring a bell with anyone ? - I was trying to turn up this > >> picture for Peter ( who started this thread ) and its now become ( don't > >> you hate this when it happens !!! ) like the hunt for the Holy Grail ( > >> Monty Python Version !!! ) > >> > >> DAVID > >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:57:06 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <01BD79C0.06541F60.panz-meador@vsti.com> patrick: i've got the book, will quote it tomorrow. yes, you and charles are quite correct. the thing called "sworl fabric" was only used on oeffag-built d.iii's in the late 153 and 253 series. fabric covered a/c were produced at the same time that non-fabric covered a/c were. the A-H book posits that batches of fabric from the factory were used up as they arrived at oeffag, so that certain blocks of serial numbers were sworl fabric, the next block not, then another block in fabric. phillip -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Padovan [SMTP:ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 1:37 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Gents: re the recent discussion of painted swirl camo and brush strokes, etc: I may be wrong, quite possibly am, but aren't we getting confused between different "Swirl" camo types? The HB D.I was, according to the sources I've seen, never finished in the printed type of Swirl camo. Some examples were (and again, I'm not trying to be didactic here, honestly!) finished in what Americal refer to as the "Bromowski distribution", i.e., swirls of hand-painted ochre or mustard over light or dark green. This would certainly account for brush strokes being present. The printed camo, with its wild "paisley curtain" pattern, was (and again, this is based soley on what I've read, correct me by all means if you have other information!) only applied to --some, not by any means all-- Oef. Alb. D-IIIs in 1918. Having said this, I, too, have not yet seen the photo of the HB D.I in the new FMP book. If this photo isn't the so-called "Bromowski Distribution," type of camo, could it be some other hand-painted pattern? Regards, Patrick P.S. Could somebody who has this book (Matt Bittner?) please quote the caption of the aforementioned photo in the FMP HB D-I book? Does it shed any light? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:06:25 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: SWORL FABRIC anyone listening ???? Message-ID: >matthew: > >at this point i don't know. the statement made in the FMP A-H book is: > "textile experts who have examined the Austrian pattern claim that the >fabric could only have been produced by hand-printing in 1918 which could >limit the available supply." this implies to me that dr. o'connor did not >examine the fabric. also, backhausen and sons was contracted with by flars >to produce the material in large quantities and is _evidently_ the firm >which produced the fabric for Oeffag. earlier, two other firms had >produced "prototype" fabrics "in the German style." (FWIW). these patterns >were evidently used on two phoenix-built brandenburg C.Is (329.05 & >329.06)--the top wings were covered. > > > >phillip One point that I have tried to make in several postings to this list is NO ORIGINAL SWORL FABRIC IS KNOWN TO EXIST. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:05:44 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Swirling confusion Message-ID: <01BD79C1.3AE3D260.panz-meador@vsti.com> matthew: you have to be careful, because while you can clearly see patterns in B/W photos, interpreting the colors therein is subject to many factors, such as the response of the film itself to various colors--unless the film's response matches that of the eye (unlikely), then photos aren't WYSIWYG. i believe that i've read (on this list) that dr. o'c. used logical deductions for the colors, which of course prevents anything so precise as assigning an FS # (ugh, for example) to the stuff. also, while something should have been done, it doesn't mean that it _was_ done. the only way to find out is to verify. since dr. o'c isn't available and hasn't been since '94, i'm trying backhausen. FWIW, his 12 part series describing A-H camo (thanks, charles) appeared in C&CI volumes 17-19 ('86-'88). i'm going to purchase these as $s allow, but for now: perhaps someone with these books could check the series to further this discussion? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Zivich [SMTP:mzivich@tardis.svsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 1:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Swirling confusion Charles, Thank you for the clarification. I'm beginning to learn more about the subject. However, would it be safe to say that if the sworl pattern was manufactured by Backhausen they probably don't have a record of the colors used, since they surely would have been contacted by Dr. O'Connor to be used in his book. And it has been stated that Dr.O'C used photos to arrive at his colors for the sworl. Also is the swirl pattern the smaller, cruder marks suggested in the Glencoe kit for Fred. Navratil, among others, for example? If so, I do recognize the difference between the two, and I have a better understanding of the methods of application. Matthew Z On Thu, 7 May 1998, Charles Hart wrote: > Matthew, > > I'm afraid that you are muddying the waters here. There are a couple > of different A-H camouflage patterns that use "swirl" or "sworl" type > patterns. There is a screen printed fabric which has already been > discussed. It appeared late in the war and was used on apparently a small > number of airframes. > > There is also a PAINTED camouflage pattern of swirls applied with a > brush to some Albatros (Hansa-Brandenburgs also ??) in selected Fliks. I > would consult a few references to see which Fliks used this pattern. This > is the "Brumowski Distribution" which Americal/Gryphon has put into decal > form. > > FWIW Americal/Gryphon has elected not to produce a decal of the > "sworl" fabric due to lack of reliable documentation of the colors used. > > Charles > > hartc@spot.colorado.edu > > > >David: > > > > Though we may be inclined to agree with you about the possibility > >of hand-brushed sworl/swirl camo., because of the obvious brush marks, > >that does not necessarily preclude the possibility of serigraphy which can > >duplicate brush strokes as well depending upon the kind of stencil used. > > Based on Phillip A-M's recent research on the firm that printed > >the fabric and his comments apparently based on the company's website > >("Art Deco-ey"), Jugenstil was alive and well and made its mark on the > >War. (If you are familiar with the art work of Mackentosh and the Glasgow > >School or the floral designs of the Amer. Arch. Louis Sullivan you'll see > >a similarity because of this pervasive international style.) > > > >Matthew Zivich > >On Wed, 6 May 1998, David R.L. Laws wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I've seen a photograph of this camo in closeup - It's hand painted and > >> clearly shows the marks of the brush bristles splaying out at the tail > >> end of the brush strokes - > >> > >> The pic shows a pilot EITHER in the cockpit ( from the stb side ) with > >> the como detail showing on the lower wing OR it's the pilot standing at > >> the tail ( stb side again ) with the painted camo evident on the tail > >> plane > >> > >> Does this ring a bell with anyone ? - I was trying to turn up this > >> picture for Peter ( who started this thread ) and its now become ( don't > >> you hate this when it happens !!! ) like the hunt for the Holy Grail ( > >> Monty Python Version !!! ) > >> > >> DAVID > >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:57:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: "Offensive Patrol" Message-ID: Gentlemen: I just wanted to say "Thanks!" to whomever it was, who last week mentioned the title, "Offensive Patrol," by Norman Macmillan, about the RFC/RNAS/RAF on the Italian front, 1917-1918. I received the book yesterday, and have been enjoying it enormously. Sorry I don't recall who it was that mentioned it on the list, but thanks for doing so. Ciao! Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:35:19 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: SWORL FABRIC anyone listening ???? Message-ID: <01BD79CD.BEACE3A0.panz-meador@vsti.com> charles: point made. everyone knows that such exotica as sworl fabric-covered albatri aren't available for analysis. however, it is not clear that no records of the fabric exist. records in this case consisting of patterns, colors used, etc. in particular, it would be interesting to know more about the "fabric experts who have examined the Austrian fabric". it's just the classic investigator's questions of who, what, when, where, how, and why? all of which may prove to be a _dead end_. to summarize the current knowledge, (a) the pattern, based on b/w photos, contains at least 3 colors and probably 4 colors. (b) the pattern is either hand-painted or silk-screened. (c) the colors are unknown, though were guessed at using logical extension of A-H practice (d) the assessed colors, in a (simplified) 3 color pattern, have become the "norm" in that this pattern is utilized in (i) durkota's illustration in the FMP A-H book (ii) blue rider decals. (e) no known examples of this fabric exist (f) "fabric experts" have examined this fabric at some point in the past. these experts are unknown, though perhaps identified in the records of dr. o'connor (estate), peter grosz, the authors of the OEF albatross book printed in austria, etc. (g) the manufacturer, as chosen by Flars and ID'd in the FMP book, is still in business in viena. i think that's all that can be said of this topic, pending new research or revealed knowledge. 'nuf said, eh? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hart [SMTP:hartc@spot.colorado.edu] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 2:02 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: SWORL FABRIC anyone listening ???? One point that I have tried to make in several postings to this list is NO ORIGINAL SWORL FABRIC IS KNOWN TO EXIST. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1014 **********************