WWI Digest 1012 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by mbittner@juno.com 2) Kookaburra Snipe by "Sandy Adam" 3) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by The Shannons 4) AM (was Re: Still Alive) by Bob Pearson 5) RE: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 by "D. Anderson" 6) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Charles Hart 7) Re: Kookaburra Snipe by Charles Hart 8) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Joey Valenciano 9) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Matthew Zivich 10) Re: Kookaburra Snipe by "Sandy Adam" 11) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Matthew Zivich 12) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 13) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 14) Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 by Silverbird 15) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Silverbird 16) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Charles Hart 17) RE: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 18) RE: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Charles Hart 19) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Matthew Zivich 20) RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" by Patrick Padovan 21) way off topic (was RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point") by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 22) Re: way off topic-eras of war by KarrArt 23) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by perrysm@juno.com 24) RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" by Matthew Zivich 25) Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal by Matthew Zivich 26) RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 27) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Rob." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 05:07:23 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: <19980506.052053.14302.1.mbittner@juno.com> On Wed, 6 May 1998 05:55:27 -0400 infosilver@czechia.com writes: >I'm planning a visit to National Museum of Technology >Prague and to take some snaps of exhibited aircraft. >I'd like to hear your opinions to which parts should I >concentrate when photographing abovementioned aircraft. Detail shots. Windsock ran an article on the Anasal a number of years ago, but they forgot photo's of the cockpit, landing gear, etc. Matt Bittner _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:32:22 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: "AAA - WW1 Group" Subject: Kookaburra Snipe Message-ID: <199805061036.LAA19670@beryl.sol.co.uk> Does anybody know if Kookaburra ever published the second part of their Snipe Monograph. The copy I have refers to Part 2 listing all known serials as well as more info, such as plans of 2-seat Snipe. Anybody seen Part 2? Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:18:27 -0500 From: The Shannons To: wwi Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <35505512.325368CB@ix.netcom.com> Sandy Adam wrote: > ............ > , camo was mainly of use > > close to the ground, where it could save your airplane from a > > strafing attack on your airfield or help you to slip away from a > > losing turning duel at low level. > > A lot of sense here, but you are missing one of the main points of > irregular camouflage which is to break up the shape of the object. When the > aeroplane is far away, some toned-down colours will help to make it > indistinct - grey/blue against sky, browns and greens against ground - thus > some of the former on the undersurfaces and the latter on the upper - but > once you have seen it in the distance, the point of camouflage is to render > accurate identification difficult and, as you get near, to render accurate > visual aiming difficult. > I had to chime in here with one comment about the timing of "Air Superiority" camouflages and colors. They were actually introduced as early as 1940, as the German camouflage on their <> changed from greens and grey green to the mid-war dark blue-green greys and purplish greys. The reason for this has been stated as the Germans did not need to fear surprise attacks on their bases as much, so a camouflage for their fighters was designed to help in air combat situations. The British followed suit, changing their Dark Earth areas on their fighters to Ocean Grey and picking a light neutral grey underside color to fit with the clearer skies over the continent. The grey and green camouflage was a compromise between protection low down over the Channel for the "Ranger" missions, and a suitable air superiority camouflage. The German camouflage changed back to earth tones -- a purplish brown and an olive green -- in Northern Europe again when their biggest worry became attack at the air bases once more. (Leaving out the sand camouflage for the Western Desert.) So, this fits with the definition I saw in the Naval Camouflage books -- Camouflage is the attempt to hide the object at the time of greatest danger or opportunity. Service paint is a generalized golor suitable to a wide range of conditions. For this reason, I would characterize PC-10 and US Olive Drab 41 as service paints, rather than camouflages. -- This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon at Shingend@ix.netcom.com History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 06:00:49 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: AM (was Re: Still Alive) Message-ID: <13004956705747@KAIEN.COM> Ivan, The AM copies were purchased in Phoenix and are on the way to me now. When I get them I will forward them to Bill and Rick for copying (or whatever else is decided). The AM fund is now at $215 after paying for them. I may have to dip into it to pay customs/UPS brokerage when they cross the border and then again to forward copies to Rick and Bill, but I will keep the receipts in case anyone has worries about my Phoenix purchases :-) Regards, Bob Pearson ---------- Ivan wrote . . . > Short messages (sorry to be so late): > Bob Pearson: What are the results of Aerodrome Modeler back issues purchase? > I'm ready to send my share of $ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:46:42 -0600 From: "D. Anderson" To: wwi Subject: RE: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980506084642.006e5654@cadvision.com> At 05:55 AM 06/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 5 May 1998 22:28:29 -0400 John & Allison >Cyganowski wrote: >>When I spoke to the folks at Eduard USA a feww months >ago, they said >>that they expected that the D.III would be out "in June, >after the X-1s >>and Nieuports." >> >>John Cyg. >> > >Talked to Eduard yesterday. The street date of Nie.17 >(basic version w/o resin parts, decals for Guynemer's "Le >Vieux Charles") is said to be April 15. Next in the row >will be probably Alb.Dr.I. April 15? Are caught up in some sort of time warp? In the rest of the world, it's now May. Did your source mention anything about the possible release date for the Alb D.III? D. >Ivan Subrt > >"The air is our sea." Czech proverb > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:38:07 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: >On Wed, 6 May 1998 05:55:27 -0400 infosilver@czechia.com writes: > >>I'm planning a visit to National Museum of Technology >>Prague and to take some snaps of exhibited aircraft. >>I'd like to hear your opinions to which parts should I >>concentrate when photographing abovementioned aircraft. > >Detail shots. Windsock ran an article on the Anasal a number of years >ago, but they forgot photo's of the cockpit, landing gear, etc. > > >Matt Bittner > Color, color, color. I don't believe that the Anasal has been restored. I've never seen a color photo of this machine in the museum. Same goes for the American biplane (forget what it is) that hangs behind it. This machine was mentioned in the latest Windsock. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:45:18 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Kookaburra Snipe Message-ID: >Does anybody know if Kookaburra ever published the second part of their >Snipe Monograph. The copy I have refers to Part 2 listing all known serials >as well as more info, such as plans of 2-seat Snipe. Anybody seen Part 2? >Sandy Very interesting, when was Part 1 published ? I don't believe that I've ever seen a copy. Relevant details would be appreciated, page and photo counts, color (?). TIA Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:01:14 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980506200114.0070e720@philonline.com.ph> >I'd like to hear your opinions to which parts should I >concentrate when photographing abovementioned aircraft. Interior and engine area are always good spots. Since there are many full shots of these planes, detail photos would balance things out nicely, I think. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:07:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: I got a good illustration from Bob Pearson of this camo. MZ On Tue, 5 May 1998, Leonard Endy wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 1998 10:32:51 -0400, you wrote: > > >so, in 1:48 scale your talking a brush about 2.1 mm wide and in 1:72 about > >1.4 mm wide. that sounds very do-able, though tedious, in terms of a > >"brumowski distribution"-type swirl effect. could be very difficult to > >replicate the sworl fabric by painting as you'd have 2 colors (assuming the > >FMP A-H book to be correct) to overcoat the base color of dark green with. > > > Okay, since seeing the HB D.I photo w/Brumowski leaning on the wing > I've been debating doing my D.I in that scheme. I would go the > "Painted On Method" but unfortunately I have no reference material at > hand showing a clear view of the sworl pattern. Does anyone on the > list perhaps have a diagram/photo showing the design that could be > scanned or photo-copied? Just the ticket to get my summer modeling > season in gear. > > TIA > > Len > > nb. Pegasus W.29 > nl. Janis Joplin "Janis Joplin" > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:29:48 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Kookaburra Snipe Message-ID: <199805061631.RAA05199@beryl.sol.co.uk> > >Does anybody know if Kookaburra ever published the second part of their > >Snipe Monograph. The copy I have refers to Part 2 listing all known serials > >as well as more info, such as plans of 2-seat Snipe. Anybody seen Part 2? Relevant details would be appreciated, page and photo counts, color (?). Hi Charles - Vol 1 is a slim volume similar to the Albatros volume but no colour. 28pages including covers with good 48 scale plans in centre drawn by the author Anthony Shennan. Also 72 scale plans of 1st prototype and RAE drawings of Bentley installation. First half contains good selection of pics of various configs with varying tails, wings, engines etc Second half has excellent large pics of stripped fuselage internals, engine and framework. Final pages cover potted details of 9 examples - 5 of which are drawn in 1/48 b&w profile. Called "Technical Manual - Series 2 number 2" published 1967 - on back page it says that "All known serials are listed in Part2 ... with further marking info, further structure drawings and views plus 2-seat Snipe" If anybody has seen vol 2, please let me know - vol 1 is lonely on its own! Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:44:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: If you think of swirl pattern camouflage as another variant of the other multi-colored, Teutonic camo. schemes, lozenge regular and irregular, hexagons, non-descript mosaics, etc., the emphasis has been on color interaction. That is to say mostly earth colors, but not exclusively so. Sometimes drastic contrasts of complementaries like purple adjacent to yellow, red next to green, etc. Also the juxtaposition of value contrasts of divergent hues (chromatics)like a light yellow next to a dark blue, etc. helped to confuse a silhouette at a greater distance than, say, a warm/cool hue juxtaposition alone. Greys (achromatics) alone would be extremely limited in achieving such an effect and probably would not even be considered if color was available. Achromatics just don't have the visual phenomena of chromatics and the camo. designers were well aware of that especially when you study their designs. Matt Z. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:00:41 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <01BD78E6.98510660.panz-meador@vsti.com> sandy has a good point regarding the quest to breakup the outline of the a/c and/or give the enemy a bad aiming point for deflection shots, as i'd assume you'd get in the majority of late war engagements (excluding the flying ax murderers who insisted on closing to 10 yards before opening fire...). there's a nice illustration of such an effect in the harleyford fighter book. the upper wing of either a camel or se5a has (a) offset roundels and (b) thin colored stripes which emanate from a point on the leading edge of one wing like the rays of some of the anti-camoflage schemes in vogue in the 30s. i seem to recall also that the latvians offset their swastika roundel on the top wing of their bristol bulldog(s) for the same reason (insignia mag., no. 2). also, remember that the phoenix d.iii model never actually entered service; the "J.41" was the prototype for the KuK navy at the end of the war, adn was later used as a demonstrator in sweden. therefore, the silver-gray may not have been intended as camo (which would have been rather ineffective anyway what with those big stripes on the wings and tail...). phillip -----Original Message----- From: Sandy Adam [SMTP:cbbs@almac.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 5:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: .................................. . If they survived It doesn't really matter at this stage what the colours are as long as the outline is broken up and the vital targets - crew, fuel tank etc are difficult to aim at - thus high-contrast swathes or blotches or whatever may help to hide the cockpit area. In a fast and furious dogfight, an irregularly contrasted shape flashing in front of you will be much more difficult to follow than a nice regular CDL finish. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:05:13 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <01BD78E7.3ACAF540.panz-meador@vsti.com> matthew: thanks for the comments on the chromaticity of the A-H sworl camo. disruption with color was certainly the intent of the the disparate hex camo (i.e. red brown-green swath next to tan-green swath with oddball hexes thrown in for good measure) as seen on ships like the aviatik (berg) d.i. can't wait for the toko release! could i get a copy of the "bromowski distribution" illustration, if it's not too much trouble? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Zivich [SMTP:mzivich@tardis.svsu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 11:10 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: I got a good illustration from Bob Pearson of this camo. MZ On Tue, 5 May 1998, Leonard Endy wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 1998 10:32:51 -0400, you wrote: > > >so, in 1:48 scale your talking a brush about 2.1 mm wide and in 1:72 about > >1.4 mm wide. that sounds very do-able, though tedious, in terms of a > >"brumowski distribution"-type swirl effect. could be very difficult to > >replicate the sworl fabric by painting as you'd have 2 colors (assuming the > >FMP A-H book to be correct) to overcoat the base color of dark green with. > > > Okay, since seeing the HB D.I photo w/Brumowski leaning on the wing > I've been debating doing my D.I in that scheme. I would go the > "Painted On Method" but unfortunately I have no reference material at > hand showing a clear view of the sworl pattern. Does anyone on the > list perhaps have a diagram/photo showing the design that could be > scanned or photo-copied? Just the ticket to get my summer modeling > season in gear. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:48:50 -0700 From: Silverbird To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 Message-ID: <35509472.4D91@czechia.com> D. Anderson wrote: > > April 15? Are caught up in some sort of time warp? In the rest of the > world, it's now May. > > Did your source mention anything about the possible release date for the > Alb D.III? > Obviously, my mind force isn't restored completely yet :) May 15, of course. The information origins from Eduard company itself, but no date of Alb.D.III was given. Ivan Subrt "The air is our sea." Czech proverb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:13:56 -0700 From: Silverbird To: wwi Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: <35509A54.108D@czechia.com> Charles Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 6 May 1998 05:55:27 -0400 infosilver@czechia.com writes: > > > >>I'm planning a visit to National Museum of Technology > >>Prague and to take some snaps of exhibited aircraft. > >>I'd like to hear your opinions to which parts should I > >>concentrate when photographing abovementioned aircraft. > > > >Detail shots. Windsock ran an article on the Anasal a number of years > >ago, but they forgot photo's of the cockpit, landing gear, etc. > > > > > >Matt Bittner > > > > Color, color, color. I don't believe that the Anasal has been > restored. I've never seen a color photo of this machine in the museum. > Same goes for the American biplane (forget what it is) that hangs behind > it. This machine was mentioned in the latest Windsock. > > Charles > > hartc@spot.colorado.edu IIRC it's a LWT(sp?) Tractor. I'd like to hear your opinions on what film should I rather use - slides or negative? Ivan Subrt "The air is our sea." Czech proverb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:16:57 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: >Charles Hart wrote: >> >> >On Wed, 6 May 1998 05:55:27 -0400 infosilver@czechia.com writes: >> > >> >>I'm planning a visit to National Museum of Technology >> >>Prague and to take some snaps of exhibited aircraft. >> >>I'd like to hear your opinions to which parts should I >> >>concentrate when photographing abovementioned aircraft. >> > >> >Detail shots. Windsock ran an article on the Anasal a number of years >> >ago, but they forgot photo's of the cockpit, landing gear, etc. >> > >> > >> >Matt Bittner >> > >> >> Color, color, color. I don't believe that the Anasal has been >> restored. I've never seen a color photo of this machine in the museum. >> Same goes for the American biplane (forget what it is) that hangs behind >> it. This machine was mentioned in the latest Windsock. >> >> Charles >> >> hartc@spot.colorado.edu > >IIRC it's a LWT(sp?) Tractor. > >I'd like to hear your opinions on what film should I rather use - slides >or negative? > >Ivan Subrt I would suggest color negative film. If you have a flash attachment, this would be very useful. You may e-mail me off list for some specific suggestions for photography with flash in big rooms like museum halls. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:37:15 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: <01BD78F4.15B24580.panz-meador@vsti.com> charles (and all): i don't know if you generally suggest this for photographing planes, but for shots whose goal is to convey some idea of actual color may i suggest a "color standard" be placed in the field of view of the camera? such a standard could be as simple as a card with red, green and blue circles on it. such circles (used on file folder in the US at least) can be purchsed at office supply stores, or of course the expedient of using a child's crayola would work as well. most folks would be able to access colors from their bottom-of-the-line 16 color box. such a standard would perhaps "normalize out" some of the problems with lighting etc. phillip -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hart [SMTP:hartc@spot.colorado.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 1:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal >Charles Hart wrote: >> [panz-meador] ,major stuff snipped out... >> Color, color, color. I don't believe that the Anasal has been >> restored. I've never seen a color photo of this machine in the museum. >> Same goes for the American biplane (forget what it is) that hangs behind >> it. This machine was mentioned in the latest Windsock. >> >> Charles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:53:04 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: RE: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: Under ideal conditions it is very, very useful to place some kind of color standard in a photo. The photos I have seen of the Prague museum show the Anatra hanging from the ceiling in a large gallery a good 20 feet or so off the floor. A promenade at the second floor level puts the observer at eye level with the aircraft but still a number of feet away from desired details such as the cockpit. Would love to get to Prague myself to see this museum. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu >charles (and all): > >i don't know if you generally suggest this for photographing planes, but >for shots whose goal is to convey some idea of actual color may i suggest a >"color standard" be placed in the field of view of the camera? such a >standard could be as >simple as a card with red, green and blue circles on it. such circles >(used on file folder in the US at least) can be purchsed at office supply >stores, or of course the expedient of using a child's crayola would work as >well. most folks would be able to access colors from their >bottom-of-the-line 16 color box. such a standard would perhaps "normalize >out" some of the problems with lighting etc. > >phillip > >-----Original Message----- >From: Charles Hart [SMTP:hartc@spot.colorado.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 1:13 PM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal > >>Charles Hart wrote: >>> >[panz-meador] ,major stuff snipped out... >>> Color, color, color. I don't believe that the Anasal has been >>> restored. I've never seen a color photo of this machine in the museum. >>> Same goes for the American biplane (forget what it is) that hangs behind >>> it. This machine was mentioned in the latest Windsock. >>> >>> Charles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:55:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: Slightly related topic but has anyone enjoyed the Emhar Anatra as much as I have? Just the right size for 1:72 and clever clear plastic, simulated spoked wheels. Matt Z ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" Message-ID: Re offset National Markings to obscure aiming point, as mentioned by Phillip: another example from the second round of the great war is provided by the Poles on their Pz.11s, etc. The upper wing checkerboards were applied unevenly- one of them inboard, the other outboard- for this very reason. Not on-topic, but interesting to me. Ciao, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:57:00 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: way off topic (was RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point") Message-ID: <01BD78FF.3994F960.panz-meador@vsti.com> good points, patrick. i think that p.11 is the subject of the 5 view in the old profile pub. another example of camo in this line is the naval-style dazzle camo painted on a p-51. i note your ref. to the "second round". as of late i've come to the opinion that the world war lasted from 1914 to 1990, with various phases of hot war, peace, and cold war scattered throughout, very similar to the 100 years war. any takers for this debate bait? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Padovan [SMTP:ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:33 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" Re offset National Markings to obscure aiming point, as mentioned by Phillip: another example from the second round of the great war is provided by the Poles on their Pz.11s, etc. The upper wing checkerboards were applied unevenly- one of them inboard, the other outboard- for this very reason. Not on-topic, but interesting to me. Ciao, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:15:55 EDT From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: way off topic-eras of war Message-ID: <7444c364.3550c4fd@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-06 15:53:34 EDT, you write: << i note your ref. to the "second round". as of late i've come to the opinion that the world war lasted from 1914 to 1990, with various phases of hot war, peace, and cold war scattered throughout, very similar to the 100 years war. any takers for this debate bait? phillip >> I've come across several historians who are now considering 1870(Franco- Prussian War)-1945 as one long war, with intermittant periods for rest. Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:30:14 -0400 From: perrysm@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: <19980506.163014.12158.0.perrysm@juno.com> On Wed, 6 May 1998 14:56:16 -0400 Matthew Zivich writes: >Slightly related topic but has anyone enjoyed the Emhar Anatra as much >as >I have? Just the right size for 1:72 and clever clear plastic, >simulated >spoked wheels. >Matt Z Matt: I just traded a Revell SE5a to Riordan for an Emhar Anatra Anasal and I'm awaiting it's arrival. He wanted the Revell kit and I hadn't any plans to build it soon so I figured a trade for some plane I had never heard of would at least present the opportunity to learn about a new (to me ) airplane. Riordan mentioned the clear wheels and said he had planned to put it on skis. Fotocut has some nice spoked wheels I used on the float cradles for my Albatros W.4. I can't even find a picture of the thing on the net, so I can't wait for it to get here. Sounds like you thought the kit was fun. I was willing to take on a less than ideal kit for the learning experience, (both about the plane and about building), but it's beginning to sound like I made a good deal on both counts. Especially since the SE5 had that darn Revell fabric texture to sand off. So, in answer to your question, No, I haven't enjoyed it ...but I looking forward to it. Steven Perry perrysm@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:48:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" Message-ID: Patrick, The Pegasus Salamander uses asymmetrical placement and size of the wing insignia as well. MZ On Wed, 6 May 1998, Patrick Padovan wrote: > Re offset National Markings to obscure aiming point, as mentioned by > Phillip: another example from the second round of the great war is > provided by the Poles on their Pz.11s, etc. The upper wing checkerboards > were applied unevenly- one of them inboard, the other outboard- for this > very reason. Not on-topic, but interesting to me. > Ciao, Patrick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Patrick Padovan > e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:02:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Knoller C.II, Anatra Anasal Message-ID: Steve, You might want to do some cockpit research in the meantime. You'll be on your own there. But, yes, it is unique with its radial engine, etc. Also you might consider the all-green finish option. I used a Testors Beret Green and an olive green for the engine cover/nose section. I did my 'craft several years ago right out of the box. If done now I might check for thinness on the trailing edges of the wings, etc., and I might hone the wing struts down a bit. They look a little clunky now. Another plane like Emhar's Anatra and I might reconsider "butterfly" scale. Matt Z. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:07:57 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" AND SWORL FABRIC AGAIN Message-ID: <01BD7909.233FEB20.panz-meador@vsti.com> matthew: patrick suggested i mention this to the world at large. after thinking about the sworl pattern colors yesterday, i consulted the FMP A-H book to see who manufactured it. it was the vienese firm of j. backhausen and sons. i e-mailed the maker of the stuff (www.backhausen.com) to see if they have any records in their archives. i see now why the stuff looked art-deco'ey to me--they specialize in the stuff. at any rate, perhaps they'll at least clear up the 3/4 color controversy if the records are still available. if others are interested, you might check out the site. after all, according to "alice's restaurant massacre in 3 part harmony", one's just a nut, and they'll put you in jail; two, and they'll think you're "flaming embers" and they'll still put you in jail; but three, just three, and they'll think it's a conspiracy...and might actually respond. who knows? if i hear anything, i'll let you know. can't wait to see the toko salamander in trench camo... phillip -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Zivich [SMTP:mzivich@svsu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 3:51 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Attempts to obscure "aiming point" Patrick, The Pegasus Salamander uses asymmetrical placement and size of the wing insignia as well. MZ On Wed, 6 May 1998, Patrick Padovan wrote: > Re offset National Markings to obscure aiming point, as mentioned by > Phillip: another example from the second round of the great war is > provided by the Poles on their Pz.11s, etc. The upper wing checkerboards > were applied unevenly- one of them inboard, the other outboard- for this > very reason. Not on-topic, but interesting to me. > Ciao, Patrick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Patrick Padovan > e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:00:51 +0000 From: "Rob." To: wwi Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <199805062104.RAA28951@cliff.concentric.net> > A lot of sense here, but you are missing one of the main points of > irregular camouflage which is to break up the shape of the object. True. But the hypothetical grey-grey pattern I was discussing would probably not have done this any better in air-to-air situations than the earthtones, even if my points on WW1 combat ranges do not make the air-to-air case more or less moot. The greys would have been substantially worse on or close to the ground, at least most of the time. > It doesn't really matter at this stage what the colours are as long as the > outline is broken up and the vital targets - crew, fuel tank etc are > difficult to aim at Aim-ruining camo was common on warships in both world wars and was experimented with by the air forces of several countries then and later, but it was never proceeded with (except for the Ferris false canopy on Canadian F-18s). All powers have opted for concealment (by blending, shadowing, or hiding outlines) rather than for confusion/distortion. Why? Presumably because the former usually does not offer enough advantage to offset its disadvantages (high contrast against the gound). Displaced markings are another case, of course, though I've never heard that the Poles were offsetting the insignia for aiming reasons. > The famous photos of the Fokker D type in flight shows this well - if you > mentally pull back from this half-a-mile, you can imagine the difficulty of > seeing what it is. I'm not sure which photos you mean. But at half a mile the D-type will look just as if it were in PC10--or black--because of backlighting. The sky is always brighter, even at night (black is used in night camo for searchlight protection, not because it is very good as sky camo). Witness the common US belief in sinister black helicopters. People are seeing OD helicopters against a sky at medium to long range. Against a darker or similar earth background, colors can be see and can thus do some good. US OD and PC10 were definitely camouflages. In the case of OD, segmented, streaked, and blotched patterns were tried in the '20s (including German-style mauve), but were found to offer no benefit that would offset the additional cost, logistical/maintenance complexity, and weight of multicolored camo. One color top and bottom worked about as well as anything. once air superiority was assured (hence no air field strafes), the USAAF gave up camo altogether. > Rice paddies in the Po valley? Every time I've been there its been mile > after mile of olives and vines (Barolo and Valpolicella) - and the > brilliant sunshine necessary to grow them. I lived in Italy for 5 months and travelled extensively in the north. The Po valley is one of the world's premier rice-production areas (hence the locals eat risotto, not pasta). When I rode back and forth between Milan/Cremona/Venice/Ravenna in February, March, and April of 1977, the railroad embankment was often the only visible solid land between the southern horizon and the mountains (both only intermittently visible through driving rain and banks of fog). I only saw the sun 2 days out of every 5. By the way, Barolo is from the Piedmont, the mountainous area around Turin, while Valpolicella is from the Verona/Adige area, on the edge of the Po plain, but in the foothills of the Dolomites. They do drink the latter in the Po valley, tho'. Rob To e-mail me, replace the l with the numeral 1. Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1012 **********************