WWI Digest 1010 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Hannants: Collectors Kits by Graham Nash 2) Hannants: Additions to the Clearance list by Graham Nash 3) Re: AVRO 504A Cowling and Backedated by Graham Nash 4) Re: AVRO 504A Cowling help by "Sandy Adam" 5) Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) 6) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 7) sieben swabians by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 8) Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 by "D. Anderson" 9) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Charles Hart 10) Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 by "Sandy Adam" 11) PD decals by Charles Hart 12) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 13) RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Charles Hart 14) Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: by Patrick Padovan 15) Re: AVRO 504A Cowling help by "Tom Werner Hansen" 16) RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) by Patrick Padovan 17) RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 18) RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) by Charles Hart ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:03:58 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: World War 1 Modelling List Subject: Hannants: Collectors Kits Message-ID: <199805050853.AA09425@egate2.citicorp.com> Received: from egate.citicorp.com (gate.citicorp.com [163.39.250.179]) by magnolia.citicorp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09832 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from indra.netmatters.co.uk (indra.netmatters.net) by gate.citicorp.com with SMTP id AA18844 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 1 May 1998 13:55:36 -0400 Received: from netmatters.netmatters.co.uk ([195.250.32.99]) by indra.netmatters.co.uk (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAF183; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:48:52 +0100 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980501155703.0095e640@mail.netmatters.co.uk> X-Sender: hg-sales@mail.netmatters.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 16:57:03 +0100 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: Nigel Hannant Subject: Collectors Kits X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by magnolia.citicorp.com id NAA09832 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mimosa.citicorp.com id EAA05848 COLLECTORS CORNER OLD KITS FOR THE COLLECTOR/BUILDER CC110 Aurora 1:48 Breguet 14 Kit no 141-100 excellent conditon 49.95 CC132 Meikraft 1:72 Caproni. The most difficult kit ever made? 1 left 54.95 CC148 Hobby Space 1:72 Ki-84 Hayate=09 Rare Japanese Resin Kit 49.95 CC149 Hobby Space 1:72 A7V2 Reppu=09 Rare Japanese resin kit 44.95 CC153 FROG F165 Bristol 138/A 20.00 1:72 Trail Blazers series 20.00 CC163 1:72 Resin Eduard Fokker DV I 9.95 CC166 Monogram H-1 Speedee-Bilt 1:46 B-25 Mitchell. 1953. Not mint but close! Plastic & Wood 295.00 CC167 Aurora 99-98 P-38 Lightning West Hempstead logo. Rare! 39.95 CC168 Aurora 1141-260 Breguet 14 White box. Kit 1141-260. Mint 25.00 CC169 Pegasus 3002 Fairey Fulmar Mk.I & II=20 1:72 (imported from Australia) 19.99 CC178 Revell 4350 Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight set. Spitfire Lancaster & Hurricane. MINT!! 29.95 CC182 Keil Kraft 1:72 Sopwith Camel 7.50 CC191 Merlin 08 1:72 LFG Roland D.II 14.99 CC205 Airfix 10500 gift set. Jaguar Navy Lynx, Super Etendard etc 14.99 CC213 T6-G Texan was 7.50 4.99 CC219 Merlin Models Hawker Osprey "Penguin Replica" 19.99 CC230 Alfa 1:72 JaK-6 black box with aircraft flying 19.95 CC231 Alfa 1:72 JaK-6 black box with aircraft on ground 19.95 CC232 Alfa 1:72 MiG-3 black box with aircraft on ground 14.95 CC234 Alfa 1:72 Su-2 medium black box with aircraft on ground 19.95 CC235 Alfa 1:72 Su-2 large black box with aircraft on ground 25.00 CC236 Alfa 1:72 Su-2 black box with aircraft flying 25.00 CC237 Alfa 1:72 Su-2 blue box 25.00 CC239 Alfa 1:72 Su-4 colour box and booklet 25.00 CC244 1:43rd metal Zil 115 Russian stretched limousine 24.95 CC245 1:43rd metal YANKA TA3-13 Russian Limousine 22.50 CC249 Mauve 1:48 Messerschmitt Bf-11OG4 no decals. 54.95 CC250 Meikraft 1000 1:72 "On Target Scud and M1M-104 Patriot 12.50 CC255 Meikraft 1504 1:72 F6U-1 Pirate 22.50 CC260 Merlin 33 1:72 Hansa Branden- burg W20 flying boat. Mint. 14.95 CC263 Airfix 03031-3 Grumman Duck 10.00 CC289 Revell/Lodela RH-1307 Comanche En Honda 19.99 CC290 Munin 1:72 resin NA-16-4M Sk 19.99 CC291 Hawk 609-50 SNJ (Texan) 12.50 CC292 Eduard 1:72 resin Fokker DVI 7.50 CC293 MPC 2-2110 AT-6 Texan 12.50 CC297 Heller 80332 LT-6G Texan 10.00 Austrian issue and decals CC301 Heller 079 Texan 7.50 CC305 Testors/Hawk #610 T-6 Texan 10.00 CC306 Hawk 610-60 T-6 Texan 10.00 CC307 Airfix-72 series 9-39 Harvard SNJ. US issue. Boxed. 10.00 CC309 Hawk 610-50 T6 Texan 10.00 CC310 Williams Corben Super Ace #525 HO scale 10.00 CC313 Gunze Sangyo G718 1:35 5cm Pak L/60 anti tank gun. Mint and still sealed. 75.00 CC314 FROG 335P Westland Wessex 1 20.00 CC332 LS 155:350 Nell type 96 MK.II 17.50 CC335 Nichimo A5M4 Claude 10.00 CC336 FROG F172 Shackleton 35.00 CC338 FROG F260 A-7A Corsair 10.00 CC339 FROG F266 Lightning F-6 10.00 CC341 FROG F238 Buccaneer Mk.2A/50 mint & sealed 12.50 CC342 FROG F235 Dornier Do-335 mint & sealed 12.50 CC343 FROG F402 Jaguar A.2/T.2 mint & sealed 10.00 CC345 FROG F241 Maryland 167 12.50 CC346 FROG F402 Jaguar A.2/T.2 7.50 CC347 FROG F194 Spitfire XIV & Vl mint & sealed 10.00 CC348 FROG F231 Typhoon I.B mint & sealed 15.00 CC365 Italeri 107 F-84F Thunderstre 10.00 CC368 Hasegawa/Minicraft 120 Thunderbirds Phantom II 10.00 CC369 FROG F331 Fairey Gannet Red/b 12.50 CC372 AMT T645 1:48 Curtiss Hawk 12.50 CC373 Novo F247 Westland Wessex 10.00 mint, baged with header card 10.00 CC378 Microscale (ex Allyn) M54-3=09 1:48 Convair XF-92A 100.00 CC385 Revell H-1484 1:16 Jeb Allen Praying Mantis dragster 35.00 CC386 Airfix 02032-3 Henschel Hsl29 5.00 CC390 Brand-X 1:72 F-84E 10.00 CC401 Airfix 03177-8 Sud Caravelle Air France decals 20.00 CC402 FROG F266 BAC Lightning 10.00 CC404 Heller 80310 1749 Constellati 25.00 CC405 Bandai 0505611 1:72 YS-11 TDA 30.00 CC408 12 Squared 1:72 Loening M-8 15.00 CC411 Revel] H-104 Kawasaki Ki-45 Nick 25.00 CC417 Bandai 0505628-1200 YS-11 Japanese Rescue decals 30.00 CC418 Heller 310 L-749 Constelation tatty box 20.00 CC420 Revel] H377 Peter Pan Pirate 25.00 CC422 Airfix 701 Endeavour 1768 10.00 CC423 Revell H326 HMS Bounty Mutiny On The Bounty box art 20.00 CC424 Revel] H344 Flying Cloud 17.50 CC426 Merit 4915 Cutty Sark 25.00 CC427 Aurora 709-150 Graf Spee 10.00 CC429 Revel] H-351 Tirpitz 10.00 CC430 FROG F.347 Shell Coastal Tanker. Shell Welder. 35.00 CC440 Beechnut 1001 1:72 Ryan ST/PT 15.00 CC442 Pals Flight PFK-73312. 1:200 injection moulded B-737-300 & Air Caledonie Decals 25.00 CC443 Pals Flight PFK-733B.=20 1:200 injection moulded B-737-200 window decals only included 22.50 CC444 Model Krak 01 1:72 resin Breda 27M with decals 17.50 CC446 Pegasus 4002 Vought XF5U-1 Flying Pancake 15.00 CC447 Czech Resin Spitfire MK.XVIII with Propagteam decals 17.50 CC448 Hasegawa CH8 Phantom FG.1 High Grade series. Boscombe Dawn. With aftermarket nose 50.00 CC449 VLE Models 1:72 vacform Fokker T2 with decals for 15.00 Army Air Service Non Stop CC451 Aurora Nieuport II Plastic parts only.=20 Some raised detail sanded off. 4.00 CC452 Aurora Nieuport II Plastic parts only 5.00 CC453 Hawk Nieuport II Plastic parts only 4.00 CC454 Aurora Sopwith Triplane=20 Plastic parts only 5.00 CC456 Aurora Nieuport 28 Plastic parts only 25.00 CC457 Aurora Fokker D.VIII Plastic parts only 5.00 CC458 Aurora Fokker D.VII=20 Plastic parts only =A35.00 CC459 Inpact P203 Bristol Bulldog =A39.99 CC500 Testors Hawk 301 1:245=20 Graf Zeppelin airship 95.00 -------------- Hannants -------------- Phone: 00 44 (0)1502 517444 (8 lines) Fax: 00 44 (0)1502 500521 Email: sales@hannants.co.uk WWW: http://www.hannants.co.uk Postal Address:=20 H.G.Hannant Ltd,=20 Harbour Road, Oulton Broad, Lowestoft,=20 Suffolk, NR32 3LZ, England. >------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:04:25 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: World War 1 Modelling List Subject: Hannants: Additions to the Clearance list Message-ID: <199805050854.AA09441@egate2.citicorp.com> >From sales@hannants.co.uk Mon May 4 08:49:45 1998 Received: from egate.citicorp.com (gate.citicorp.com [163.39.250.179]) by magnolia.citicorp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29517 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from indra.netmatters.co.uk (indra.netmatters.net) by gate.citicorp.com with SMTP id AA17629 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 4 May 1998 12:49:15 GMT Received: from netmatters.netmatters.co.uk ([195.250.32.120]) by indra.netmatters.co.uk (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA139; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:38:50 +0100 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980504114729.00986fc0@mail.netmatters.co.uk> X-Sender: hg-sales@mail.netmatters.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:47:29 +0100 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: Nigel Hannant Subject: Additions to the Clearance list FLIGHTPATH FHP32009 1:32 RAF 48kva Tornado Ground Power Unit was 14.90 9.99 FHP32012 1:32 RAF Type S Weapons Trolley with 1000lb Laser Guided Bomb was 19.00 9.99 FHP32013 1:32 RAF Type 5 Weapons Trolley with 4 Skyflash Missiles & Type Y loader was 19.00 9.99 FHP32015 1:32 RAF Oxygen/Nitrogen Trolley was 12.90 7.50 FHP32016 1:32 RAF Type Y weapon loading trolley abd 4 Skyflash missiles was 14.99 7.50 FHP48002 1:48 WWII Airfield Hut/Picket Post was 19.90 9.99 FHP48003 1:48 Type B Bomb Trolley & Bombs was 14.90 9.99 FHP48030 1:48 Beaverette MK.III RAF Airfield Defence Vehicle. Etched body, metal wheels was 14.90 9.99 FHP48050 1:48 RAF Diorama Set - Modern Fire extinguishers,Tow Bars, Wheel Chocks was 12.30 7.50 FHP72001 1:72 WWII Airfield Dispersal Set was 12.90 7.50 FHP72002 1:72 WWII Airfield Hut/Picket Post was 12.90 7.50 FHP72004 1:72 Pneumatic Servicing Trollies was 6.90 3.99 FHP72005 1:72 Torpedo Trolley with Torpedo was 8.90 4.99 FHP72011 1:72 RAF/USAAF Towed Fuel Bowser was 8.90 4.99 FHP72014 1:72 RAF Type C MK.III Bomb trolley was 6.90 3.50 FHP72023 1:72 Fordson Airfield Tractor and Towed Fuel Bowser was 15.90 9.99 FHP72024 1:72 RAF Trolley Accumulator was 6.90 4.99 FHP24001 1:24 PSP Airfield Plating 34 x 5" lengths was 25.90 14.99 FHP48010 1:48 Sommerfeld Airfield Tracking. Netting with interlocking bars and securing stakes.was 10.90 6.99 FH3201 1:32 RAF Security Patrol Set.vOne man and his Alsatian dog.was 7.95 3.99 FHP72003 1:72 Control Tower Fittings for the Airfix kit was 12.90 6.99 FHP72015 1:72 PSP Airfield pierced plating was 6.90 3.99 FHP72016 1:72 Sommerfield Airfield Tracking was 7.75 3.99 MONOGRAM MG2803 1:12 Ferrari Testarossa was 37.50 19.99 MG5002 1:350 USS Missouri was 43.95 24.99 MG5082 1:144 Saturn V Rocket was 24.95 14.99 MG6298 1:24 Wrangler race team set. 1981 Pontiac AND 1986 Chevy Monte Carlo was 24.95 14.99 MG6367 1:24 Kodak Race team set. 1988 Oldsmobile AND 1990 Oldsmobile was 24.95 14.99 MG7002 1:24 Maserati 3500 GT was 13.50 7.50 MG7005 1:24 Ferrari Berlinetta 250 GT was 9.95 4.99 MG7007 1:16 VW-Beetle custom. Looks similar to a Rolls Royce was 22.50 14.99 MG7009 1:24 BMW 635 CSi was 9.95 4.99 MG2045 1:43 '67 Corvette 427 Conv was 19.95 12.50 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:44:53 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: Re: AVRO 504A Cowling and Backedated Message-ID: <199805050934.AA10676@egate2.citicorp.com> Charles Duckworth wrote: > > Does anyone know where I might find a good, clear shot of the front cowling > on an AVRO 504A, I've found several good photos of the plane in a 3/4 view > in RNAS but the black paint on the cowling is so glossy I can tell any of > the details I need, am trying to put together enough info to modify the > Merit/SMER 504K to an A. > I have Airfix magazines circa 1967-1969, which contains articles on converting the Airfix 504K into the Friedrichshahen raid '504A' with some marking details. I'll pop it along to you when I've got the scanner warmed up later today. Anyone else who'd like a copy please let me know off-list. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:13:56 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: AVRO 504A Cowling help Message-ID: <199805051016.LAA05083@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Does anyone know where I might find a good, clear shot of the front cowling > on an AVRO 504A, I've found several good photos of the plane in a 3/4 view > in RNAS but the black paint on the cowling is so glossy I can tell any of > the details I need, am trying to put together enough info to modify the > Merit/SMER 504K to an A. Hi Charles - I think you said this is for the Lake Constance raid machines - yes? These are Avro machines 179, 873, 874 & 875 but were not as I understand it classified as 504A types. I assume the RNAS book you mention is the Air-Britain serials book which shows the four planes lined up before the raid - but a bit indistinct for cowling details. What seems to be clear though is that there are perforations in the cowlings, wheareas standard 504A had no such perfs. Good picture of an "A" in JM Bruce - British Aeroplanes (IWM photo Q55961 of A1979) The F'haven raiders look more like 504B's to me although these standard classifications did not come into effect until rather later. Most early 504s were modifed as they were built. Thus 504s were called "A"s from serial 2890 onwards but sometimes loosely applied to the previous 63 504s built. There is a good picture of a "B" with what looks like the F'haven cowling shape in the later Jane's WW1 Aircraft reprint - if I were modelling these I'd go for this layout. Perhaps one of the recent correspondents with this book and access to a photocopier or a scanner could forward this to you. HTH Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 06:43:58 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 Message-ID: >From Mark... - but not those oh-so-lazy folks in Ontario. :) > Hey! I resemble that comment... Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:34:05 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <01BD7808.F304EE20.panz-meador@vsti.com> so, in 1:48 scale your talking a brush about 2.1 mm wide and in 1:72 about 1.4 mm wide. that sounds very do-able, though tedious, in terms of a "brumowski distribution"-type swirl effect. could be very difficult to replicate the sworl fabric by painting as you'd have 2 colors (assuming the FMP A-H book to be correct) to overcoat the base color of dark green with. by the way, concernign the book on the albatross (oef) D.III mentioned recently: "Die Albatros (Oeffag) Jagdflugzeuge der K.U.K. Luftfahrtruppen, by Peter Schiemer, published by H. Weishaupt Verlag, ISBN 3-900310-15-7" note that dr. peter schiemer is the 3rd coauthor of the FMP A-H book. therefore i'd assume his interpretation of the 3 color sworl fabric is correctly portrayed by the color plate. SAFO once did an article (martin o'conner?) on A-H lozenge patterns and colors. reference may have been made to a forthcoming article on "other" A-H camo, can't remember and the thing is at the house. anyone know off -hand if this ever came out, and if it addressed the sworl fabric? phillip a smoothee, creamy white SPAD -----Original Message----- From: David R.L. Laws [SMTP:laws@webtime.com.au] Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 7:06 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Patrick Padovan wrote: > > Dear Phillip: Thanks for decal info on Blue Rider Swirl Camo sheet. I had the Americal sheet, I think that effect is better achieved by painting. > Regards, Patrick RATS !!! .... Patrick is right ! If you look at the photographs ( at least the few close up shots that I have seen ) it is very clear that this sworl effect was achieved using a brush about c. 4 inches wide ( or perhaps a little wider ) - The colour is heavy at the centre with the ends of the individual sworl brush strokes showing the paint exhausted bristle marks splaying out very clearly REGARDS DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:38:34 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: sieben swabians Message-ID: <01BD7809.93C2D520.panz-meador@vsti.com> just purchased the australian PD decals fokker d.vii sheet, featuring this a/c. the colors of the figures are perhaps described in the "Jan/Feb 1995 issue of Windsock". anyone have this issue? if so, could you fill me in as to what colors (or candidate colors) the figures might be? TIA, phillip ps. i seem to recall that PD is going/has gone out of business, which is a shame if the fokker sheet represents their typical effort. for those interested, i got mine from sopwith hobbies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:37:11 -0600 From: "D. Anderson" To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980505083711.006e20dc@cadvision.com> At 01:15 AM 05/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hello: > >Last I heard (ie: last week) the first Eduard Nie.17 (the non profi-pack >one) should be out within the next month with the profi-pack following >about a month later. I can't say on the Albatros though. Thanks. I was beginning to fear that no one was interested in answering this query. Can't wait to get my hands on this kit, and the Albatros DIII will be neat, whenever it's out. Dane >Mark Nelson > >------------------------ >mnelson@v-wave.com >------------------------ > >Find me working at Kites & Other Delights in West Edmonton Mall >http://www.kitesandotherdelights.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:08:04 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: Phillip writes: >so, in 1:48 scale your talking a brush about 2.1 mm wide and in 1:72 about >1.4 mm wide. that sounds very do-able, though tedious, in terms of a >"brumowski distribution"-type swirl effect. could be very difficult to >replicate the sworl fabric by painting as you'd have 2 colors (assuming the >FMP A-H book to be correct) to overcoat the base color of dark green with. > >by the way, concernign the book on the albatross (oef) D.III mentioned >recently: > "Die Albatros (Oeffag) Jagdflugzeuge der K.U.K. Luftfahrtruppen, by >Peter > Schiemer, published by H. Weishaupt Verlag, ISBN 3-900310-15-7" > >note that dr. peter schiemer is the 3rd coauthor of the FMP A-H book. > therefore i'd assume his interpretation of the 3 color sworl fabric is >correctly portrayed by the color plate. IMHO this is an incorrect assumption. The color section of the FMP A-H book was mostly authored by the late Dr. Martin O'Connor. O'Connor's ideas of the colors of the printed sworl fabric were first published in a piece in C&CI a few years before. In his description of the fabric and an accompanying black and white illustration O'Connor explicitly states that the illustration has been "simplified" for illustration. Three shades of grey are seen in the "simplified" illustration while the accompanying photograph of a sample of undoped fabric clearly bears 4 shades of grey. >SAFO once did an article (martin o'conner?) on A-H lozenge patterns and >colors. reference may have been made to a forthcoming article on "other" >A-H camo, can't remember and the thing is at the house. anyone know off >-hand if this ever came out, and if it addressed the sworl fabric? SAFO article was a re-hash of the writing O'Connor did originally in C&CI. The C&CI articles were published over about two years of C&CI issues and deal with camo and markings of A-H machines. Surf over to the C&CI website. It has a complete table of contents for every issue of the journal. You will be able to see the relevant issues listed there. This is a very handy feature. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:22:09 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Eduard: Albatros D.III and Nie. 17 Message-ID: <199805051524.QAA18070@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Thanks. I was beginning to fear that no one was interested in answering > this query. Hi Dane - sorry if nobody answered you on this one - its just that we have anticipated Eduard kits for so long now that I think most of us are now completely fatalistic about what will appear and when - ie when something does appear, great - but don't lose sleep over it. Look back at the digests and you will see two years worth of "where are the Pfalz and Alb D.III models?" before the Pfalz finally appeared (and was well worth the wait.) I remember being shown the Alb (and Hanriot) box artwork before Christmas '77 and thinking how many I would want in my stocking! Ha Ha Ha. Even in January this year the main UK importer, 4-plus, said they would have the Nie in March. Most of us have now given up even thinking about them. They, and the Glencoe DH4s, will arrive to the sound of trumpets sometime - but until then enjoy the Blue Max Roland and the Aeroclub Bristol Fighter and the Flashback Morane and ... Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:43:49 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: PD decals Message-ID: >just purchased the australian PD decals fokker d.vii sheet, featuring this >a/c. the colors of the figures are perhaps described in the "Jan/Feb 1995 >issue of Windsock". anyone have this issue? if so, could you fill me in >as to what colors (or candidate colors) the figures might be? > >TIA, > >phillip > >ps. i seem to recall that PD is going/has gone out of business, which is a >shame if the fokker sheet represents their typical effort. for those >interested, i got mine from sopwith hobbies. PD Decals only did two other WW I sheets, both are for SPADs and are excellent products. They were available in 1/48 and 1/72. Highly recommended. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:17:34 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: <01BD781F.C9C21120.panz-meador@vsti.com> charles: thanks for the information. i've checked out the site and see that the articles cited run to 12 parts. will check out as $s allow. the o'connor interpretation utilizes dk. green, brown, and mustard; care to hazard a guess as to the 4th color? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hart [SMTP:hartc@spot.colorado.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 10:03 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Phillip writes: >so, in 1:48 scale your talking a brush about 2.1 mm wide and in 1:72 about >1.4 mm wide. that sounds very do-able, though tedious, in terms of a >"brumowski distribution"-type swirl effect. could be very difficult to >replicate the sworl fabric by painting as you'd have 2 colors (assuming the >FMP A-H book to be correct) to overcoat the base color of dark green with. > >by the way, concernign the book on the albatross (oef) D.III mentioned >recently: > "Die Albatros (Oeffag) Jagdflugzeuge der K.U.K. Luftfahrtruppen, by >Peter > Schiemer, published by H. Weishaupt Verlag, ISBN 3-900310-15-7" > >note that dr. peter schiemer is the 3rd coauthor of the FMP A-H book. > therefore i'd assume his interpretation of the 3 color sworl fabric is >correctly portrayed by the color plate. IMHO this is an incorrect assumption. The color section of the FMP A-H book was mostly authored by the late Dr. Martin O'Connor. O'Connor's ideas of the colors of the printed sworl fabric were first published in a piece in C&CI a few years before. In his description of the fabric and an accompanying black and white illustration O'Connor explicitly states that the illustration has been "simplified" for illustration. Three shades of grey are seen in the "simplified" illustration while the accompanying photograph of a sample of undoped fabric clearly bears 4 shades of grey. >SAFO once did an article (martin o'conner?) on A-H lozenge patterns and >colors. reference may have been made to a forthcoming article on "other" >A-H camo, can't remember and the thing is at the house. anyone know off >-hand if this ever came out, and if it addressed the sworl fabric? SAFO article was a re-hash of the writing O'Connor did originally in C&CI. The C&CI articles were published over about two years of C&CI issues and deal with camo and markings of A-H machines. Surf over to the C&CI website. It has a complete table of contents for every issue of the journal. You will be able to see the relevant issues listed there. This is a very handy feature. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:36:14 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: >charles: > >thanks for the information. i've checked out the site and see that the >articles cited run to 12 parts. will check out as $s allow. > >the o'connor interpretation utilizes dk. green, brown, and mustard; care >to hazard a guess as to the 4th color? Multiple guesses will be put forward in an upcoming issue of Chandelle. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu > >phillip > >-----Original Message----- >From: Charles Hart [SMTP:hartc@spot.colorado.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 10:03 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: > > >Phillip writes: > >>so, in 1:48 scale your talking a brush about 2.1 mm wide and in 1:72 about >>1.4 mm wide. that sounds very do-able, though tedious, in terms of a >>"brumowski distribution"-type swirl effect. could be very difficult to >>replicate the sworl fabric by painting as you'd have 2 colors (assuming the >>FMP A-H book to be correct) to overcoat the base color of dark green with. >> >>by the way, concernign the book on the albatross (oef) D.III mentioned >>recently: >> "Die Albatros (Oeffag) Jagdflugzeuge der K.U.K. Luftfahrtruppen, by >>Peter >> Schiemer, published by H. Weishaupt Verlag, ISBN 3-900310-15-7" >> >>note that dr. peter schiemer is the 3rd coauthor of the FMP A-H book. >> therefore i'd assume his interpretation of the 3 color sworl fabric is >>correctly portrayed by the color plate. > > > IMHO this is an incorrect assumption. The color section of the FMP >A-H book was mostly authored by the late Dr. Martin O'Connor. O'Connor's >ideas of the colors of the printed sworl fabric were first published in a >piece in C&CI a few years before. In his description of the fabric and an >accompanying black and white illustration O'Connor explicitly states that >the illustration has been "simplified" for illustration. Three shades of >grey are seen in the "simplified" illustration while the accompanying >photograph of a sample of undoped fabric clearly bears 4 shades of grey. > > >>SAFO once did an article (martin o'conner?) on A-H lozenge patterns and >>colors. reference may have been made to a forthcoming article on "other" >>A-H camo, can't remember and the thing is at the house. anyone know off >>-hand if this ever came out, and if it addressed the sworl fabric? > > > > SAFO article was a re-hash of the writing O'Connor did originally in >C&CI. The C&CI articles were published over about two years of C&CI issues >and deal with camo and markings of A-H machines. Surf over to the C&CI >website. It has a complete table of contents for every issue of the >journal. You will be able to see the relevant issues listed there. This >is a very handy feature. > >Charles > >hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo: Message-ID: Re: the whole issue of A/H "grey vs. green/brown" controversy: I think its relevent to point out that, regardless of who's correct on this issue, the "revelations" of certain A/H camo finishes perhaps actually being shades of grey DOES NOT APPLY to any of the Swirl/Sworl camo we have been discussing, but to entirely different and specific camo schemes. At least, this has been the case with all of the literature which I have so far encountered regarding this subject. Perhaps others have seen additional research which DOES apply to these schemes? If so, please share your sources, I'm most interested, and I'm sure others are as well. Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 4 May 1998 mbittner@juno.com wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 12:20:13 -0400 fedders > writes: > > >The whole subject of AH colors is up in the air. Those browns and > greens > >and yellows may have all been grays > > Well. I was wondering when this would come up. :-) > > >From the conversations I have had, it seems that Dr. Martin O'Connor is > *still* right. Although I have yet to hear in the definitive, the grays > are extremely suspect. > > Yes, the jury is still out, but I tend to believe the prior thoughts, > instead of the new theory. > > > Matt Bittner > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:18:51 +0200 From: "Tom Werner Hansen" To: Subject: Re: AVRO 504A Cowling help Message-ID: <199805051749.TAA04618@d1o211.telia.com> Charles I could send a scan of the picture Sandy mentioned. Quite a striking cowling if it is appropriate. Tom > > > Does anyone know where I might find a good, clear shot of the front > cowling > > on an AVRO 504A, I've found several good photos of the plane in a 3/4 > view > > in RNAS but the black paint on the cowling is so glossy I can tell any of > > the details I need, am trying to put together enough info to modify the > > Merit/SMER 504K to an A. > > Hi Charles - I think you said this is for the Lake Constance raid machines > - yes? These are Avro machines 179, 873, 874 & 875 but were not as I > understand it classified as 504A types. > I assume the RNAS book you mention is the Air-Britain serials book which > shows the four planes lined up before the raid - but a bit indistinct for > cowling details. What seems to be clear though is that there are > perforations in the cowlings, wheareas standard 504A had no such perfs. > Good picture of an "A" in JM Bruce - British Aeroplanes (IWM photo Q55961 > of A1979) > The F'haven raiders look more like 504B's to me although these standard > classifications did not come into effect until rather later. Most early > 504s were modifed as they were built. Thus 504s were called "A"s from > serial 2890 onwards but sometimes loosely applied to the previous 63 504s > built. > There is a good picture of a "B" with what looks like the F'haven cowling > shape in the later Jane's WW1 Aircraft reprint - if I were modelling these > I'd go for this layout. Perhaps one of the recent correspondents with this > book and access to a photocopier or a scanner could forward this to you. > HTH > Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) Message-ID: Dear Charles and Phillip: FWIW, the Hit Kit instructions say re the printed fabric, that 3 colors were used, but that due to bleeding or overlap in the silk screening process (I know, some one familiar with silk screening will chime in here and say, "There is no bleeding or overlap in silk screening. There IS, however, a phenomenon called BLANK, which could account for. . ." so just go ahead and assume that I used the correct term, okay?) the final appearance was of more than 3 colors, due to areas where the 3 mixed. Any chance that this might account for the B&W photo appearance that more than 3 colors were used? Charles? Opinions? (Don't blame me, blame Hit Kit!) Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:22:45 -0500 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) Message-ID: <01BD7831.463D6040.panz-meador@vsti.com> darn it!--first they START the war and then mess up the registration of camo fabric. geez. seriously, this is a good question. one means of ascertaining its answer is to identify those folks who have actually examined the fabric. who qualifies as a primary source? phillip -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Padovan [SMTP:ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us] Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 1:17 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) Dear Charles and Phillip: FWIW, the Hit Kit instructions say re the printed fabric, that 3 colors were used, but that due to bleeding or overlap in the silk screening process (I know, some one familiar with silk screening will chime in here and say, "There is no bleeding or overlap in silk screening. There IS, however, a phenomenon called BLANK, which could account for. . ." so just go ahead and assume that I used the correct term, okay?) the final appearance was of more than 3 colors, due to areas where the 3 mixed. Any chance that this might account for the B&W photo appearance that more than 3 colors were used? Charles? Opinions? (Don't blame me, blame Hit Kit!) Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:37:16 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: RE: Printed Swirl camo (was Albatros III OEF & Swirl Camo:) Message-ID: >Dear Charles and Phillip: FWIW, the Hit Kit instructions say re the >printed fabric, that 3 colors were used, but that due to bleeding or >overlap in the silk screening process (I know, some one familiar with silk >screening will chime in here and say, "There is no bleeding or overlap in >silk screening. There IS, however, a phenomenon called BLANK, which could >account for. . ." so just go ahead and assume that I used the correct >term, okay?) the final appearance was of more than 3 colors, due to areas >where the 3 mixed. Any chance that this might account for the B&W photo >appearance that more than 3 colors were used? Charles? Opinions? (Don't >blame me, blame Hit Kit!) > Regards, Patrick >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Patrick Padovan >e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us >------------------------------------------------------------------------ The short answer to all of this is sure, if you only print with three colors and get bleeding or overlap or don't print on part of the pattern the end result is the same, the pattern appears to have FOUR colors. This is something the Blue Rider decal doesn't show nor the color figures in the FMP book, both chose to illustrate only three colors and hence a caricature of the original material. The Hitkit instructions bit about bleeding, overlap etc. comes straight out of the C&CI O'Connor piece. He tried dismissing the whole thing this way as well. Marty O'C, rest his soul, taught us a lot about A-H colors and markings and pilots, but he was not infallible, just human like the rest of us. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1010 **********************