WWI Digest 1004 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Gun Talk by KarrArt 2) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors by Michelle and Rory Goodwin 3) Re: Gun Talk by Ernest Thomas 4) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by "Lee Mensinger" 5) WW I Sex Talk. Was: Gun Talk by "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." 6) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors by Jim Elkins 7) BBC1 Program "Aviators-The Red Baron" by Graham Nash 8) Re: MoS Type I by mbittner@juno.com 9) Re: Albatros III OEF by "Sandy Adam" 10) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by "Sandy Adam" 11) Re: MoS Type I by "Sandy Adam" 12) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by "Sandy Adam" 13) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by "Sandy Adam" 14) Re: WW I Sex Talk. Was: Gun Talk by "Sandy Adam" 15) BBC Richthofen programme by "Sandy Adam" 16) Oswald & the nurse by perrysm@juno.com 17) Re: Oswald & the nurse by Ernest Thomas 18) Re: Oswald & the nurse by "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." 19) Re: WW I Sex Talk. Was: Gun Talk by Ernest Thomas 20) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by Ernest Thomas 21) Re: Oswald & the nurse by perrysm@juno.com 22) Re: Anarchists and Bolsheviks by Matthew Zivich 23) Re: Oswald & the nurse by Ernest Thomas 24) Re: Albatros III OEF by Matthew Zivich 25) Re: Albatros III OEF by Matthew Zivich 26) Re: Albatros III OEF by Matthew Zivich 27) rumination by KarrArt 28) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by KarrArt 29) Re: Gun Talk by Matthew Zivich 30) Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment by "Sandy Adam" 31) Re: BBC1 Program "Aviators-The Red Baron" by Patrick Padovan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 01:16:32 EDT From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Gun Talk Message-ID: <1ca3deae.35495ab1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-01 01:08:22 EDT, you write: << fruitfully be conducted >> somehow visions of Richard Simmons leading an orchestra come to mind... Robert K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:26:54 -0700 From: Michelle and Rory Goodwin To: wwi Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors Message-ID: <35495D1E.52EE@ricochet.net> FWIW, further study of references, including the Profile and Smithsonian book, indicates that at least some USAAS DH4s had "khaki brown" on ALL surfaces, including undersides of wings and tailplane. The large black numerals on fuselage and wings must not have been that easy to make out... Also, many were operated with upper cowling removed (presumably to enhance cooling of the Liberty engines), and they seem to have been possibly armed with 50 lb.(?) French bombs. Where's that Glencoe kit when you need it? (I know it's an Eagle engined version) Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:30:59 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Gun Talk Message-ID: <35495E13.C6F@bellsouth.net> Bill Shatzer wrote: But, this _is_ a WW1 list and perhaps the discussion > of sex, religion, and politics (particularly the last two) might > be more fruitfully be conducted elsewhere? > (here comes trouble) If we leaves the politics and religion out of it, could we maybe discuss the challenges of trying to join the mile-high club in the gunners office on a Bristol Fighter?;-) Diving towards my own lines, Ernest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:44:14 -0500 From: "Lee Mensinger" To: wwi Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: <3549612D.E5C82C37@wireweb.net> David R.L. Laws wrote: > KarrArt wrote: > > > Full auto been outlawed for years! > > Robert K. > > Must have been misreported here > > DAVID A bit off the subject without regrets.The truth can set you free.Fully automatic weapons were made unlawful during the late 1920's and have never been legal since. It is a terrible shame that the ignorant, errant politicians and unashamed news (liar) reporters don't seem to know the difference between an assault weapon and something that resembles one. The only fully automatic weapons are owned by the Government, who seem to feel they have a super right to bear such arms against the US public, and the other criminals who don't care what the laws are in the first place. The ones who suffer are the general public. I live less than 200 miles from Waco, Texas.. I watched the atrocity happen. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 00:20:39 -0700 From: "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." To: wwi Subject: WW I Sex Talk. Was: Gun Talk Message-ID: At 01:36 AM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >Bill Shatzer wrote: > But, this _is_ a WW1 list and perhaps the discussion >> of sex, religion, and politics (particularly the last two) might >> be more fruitfully be conducted elsewhere? >> >(here comes trouble) >If we leaves the politics and religion out of it, could we maybe discuss >the challenges of trying to join the mile-high club in the gunners >office on a Bristol Fighter?;-) > >Diving towards my own lines, >Ernest > Ernest has a point there. Let's not be _too_ restrictive about the first topic. WW I aviation had it's fair share of sex. I wonder: How did Oswald Boelcke manage to squeeze himself and Nurse Blanka into the cockpit of a Fokker E. III and still manage to fly the thing? Has anyone attempted to model that episode? Did Mata Hari get a joy ride in a Nieuport? If so, was it to die for? Fernando Lamas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 02:59:48 -0700 From: Jim Elkins To: wwi Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors Message-ID: <35499D10.6998DAC@swbell.net> Michelle and Rory Goodwin wrote: > FWIW, further study of references, including the Profile and Smithsonian > book, indicates that at least some USAAS DH4s had "khaki brown" on ALL > surfaces, including undersides of wings and tailplane. The large black > numerals on fuselage and wings must not have been that easy to make > out... The 20th Aero had machine No.32941 flown by 1/Lts Brooke Edwards & (OBS) Karl Payne that was overall khaki. Acft #3 with squadron insignia. Shot down 5 Nov. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:46:57 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: World War 1 Modelling List Subject: BBC1 Program "Aviators-The Red Baron" Message-ID: <199805010837.AA15917@egate2.citicorp.com> For those not in the UK, and unable to see this recently (Wednesday) screened new program, the following critic, written by A.C.Marsh@btinternet.com, and posted to 'The Aerodrome' may prove interesting. QUOTE After my initial euphoria in the first few minutes that the BBC had decided to produce quite a lengthy programme on a subject so dear to my heart and despite unprecedented access to a number of the current von Richthofen family, I'm afraid to say I've been left quite disappointed by the result of their efforts, especially after the splendid series War Walks. The use of 'dubious' combat footage can be forgiven but the continual dotage on the DRI cannot, despite a one line comment that only 19 of his victories were gained in this 'mediocre' aircraft could have been better. More serious criticisms lie in the following areas: 1) Failure to mention anything about his experiences in the cavalry and the lack of action as the reason for his transfer to the flying service. 2) The criminal offence lies in the near complete failure to mention Oswald Boelcke's contribution to MvR's career, the German air service and fighter combat in general. The throwaway line that MvR was deeply effected when Boelcke, "another member of the sqadron" was killed, is just not acceptable. 3) The glossing over of his fight with Lanoe Hawker and failure to mention MvR's vastly superior Albatros over the DH2 was quite poor. 4) Even moreso was the failure to mention that he was shot down by an FE2b which was obselete by then. 5) Failure to mention the severe headaches he suffered after that. 6) No real mention of Lothar. 7) No real discussion about the events on 21st April,1918. Given all the above the programme did very well on the human side and the contribution of the family and members of the current Richthofen 'geschwader was very interesting. I could probably continue bitching and moaning for hours but on a positive side, as far as I'm concerned, anything that raises awareness and interest in WWI aviation is a good thing.So the end of term report is 'must try harder' especially in the light that there has been more written about MvR than any other aviator. P.S. There appeared to be no overseas tie ins with other T.V. stations so I don't know if this programme will be picked up in the US. UNQUOTE I did video the program if anyone is desparate, but I am unsure how US/NTSC users would get to see it. As a matter of interest, the next program appears to be inter-war up to Spanish Civil war, and may contain footage of Lindburg, Goering and Udet. Happy modelling ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 04:52:24 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: MoS Type I Message-ID: <19980501.045610.4438.2.mbittner@juno.com> On Fri, 1 May 1998 00:19:00 -0400 Shane Weier writes: >> The kit comes with a combined floor/rear bulkhead/seat part in >resin, >> and side detail in brass. The resin is new, the brass may not be. >> However the section forward of the pilots cockpit is all new. They >> provide a resin ammo box, gun and bits, also a resin cross bar and >> carby breather pipe (why bother? a piece of brass or copper tube >will >> do the job much more convincingly) Anybody with the kit willing to photocopy the plans that actually show the forward cockpit arrangement? Does anybody know of any better cockpit photo's of an I that shows this - or maybe someone's working on a replica? How about plans - does anybody know if there are any plans out there showing the cockpit of an I - besides the AEQ one showing the N? Matt Bittner _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:26:45 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF Message-ID: <199805010958.KAA13968@beryl.sol.co.uk> ....................fuel, oil, and even exhaust leaks could > produce combustible mixtures inside the plywood engine compartment > (which was also the cockpit and fuel tank area, since there wasn't a > firewall as such, if I remember correctly). Nobody wanted to add > alot of hot, still-burning propellant to the mix. Bet the Italians, (or Z force,) wouldn't have minded! Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:37:35 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: <199805010958.KAA13971@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Is this a great country or what!!! > The Swimmer Or what. The Original ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:24:29 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: MoS Type I Message-ID: <199805010958.KAA13965@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Does the Flashback/Eduard address this, or just keep the original Type N > cockpit pieces? FlashbackStep 1 - cut out marked area in front of cockpit. Step2 - build new resin interior - including new brass side frames etc. Step3 - install in fuselage half and install new resin Vickers gun, ammunition box/mounting and collection chute. new cross pipes (spars?) close fuselage. Step4 - wings, tail, skis/wheels etc Step5 - choose either circular brass cockpit cowl for Smirnov m/c or angular brass cowl to enclose gun for Windsock cover m/c. If I had a scanner here I could copy instr sheet and parts layout for you - but AFAIC its fine. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:49:45 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: <199805010959.KAA13974@beryl.sol.co.uk> > I guess I'm torn between reasonable precautions like waiting periods and > background checks, and one more chip in a constitution that's been > slowly getting chipped down to nothing. And some of these criteria for > getting banned is idiotic! Flash suppressors and pistol grips. Get real. I live 15 miles from Dunblane and I have 3 Primary School aged children - there, but for the grace of God........ If you are happy that your constitution allows free possession of such ordnance, then you must live with all that that carries with it. Sandy (Not directed at you personally. Swimmer - just too close for comfort.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:40 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: <199805010959.KAA13977@beryl.sol.co.uk> > EtAH No - EtE-CE Ernest the Ever-Changing Epithet! The Original PS - I liked your earlier films best - the one where you went to Camp for example. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:57:24 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: WW I Sex Talk. Was: Gun Talk Message-ID: <199805010959.KAA13980@beryl.sol.co.uk> I wonder: How did Oswald > Boelcke manage to squeeze himself and Nurse Blanka into the cockpit of a > Fokker E. III and still manage to fly the thing? Why squeeze himself if he had Nurse Blanka available at to do it for him? These goons were such egoists Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:03 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: "AAA - WW1 Group" Subject: BBC Richthofen programme Message-ID: <199805010959.KAA13983@beryl.sol.co.uk> BBC showed first programme in a new TV series entitled "The Aviators" on Wednesday night - subject MvR. It may be coming your way so just a note to say don't wait up for it. I won't say anything about the subject as you may know my views already, but any hope of historical accuracy was blown out of the window when we got interviews with 5 or 6 members of the Baron's family who spouted some absolute tosh. Examples: MvR's youngest brother's son told us that Manfred had his plane painted red and all the other planes in the squadron painted grey so that he stood out like a mediaeval knight. He then said that M was upset when "one of the pilots in his squadron" - Boelcke - was killed. No mention of who Boelcke was or why R was so upset. Goetz von Richthofen told us that Manfred painted his machine red so that novice enemy pilots would recognise him and know not to try to engage him in combat! We also had family lore from old Cunegunde passed down about how Manfred had to have been shot down in aerial combat - he could not have been brought down from the ground. Oh dear - looking at this bunch kept me thinking of Peter Sellars in Dr Strangelove - I expected their right arms to shoot out from the shoulder at any moment. Thankfully Manfred's great grandson respected his ancestor but was very troubled about the number of people he had killed and took a very anti-war stance. This lad is 17 and looks physically very like the subject - the director had him walking about the Bertangles graveyard dressed in a leather flying-type jacket and cutting to the 1918 burial film. Oh yes - at this point we were informed that English troops buried him with full honours - of course the Digger's hats were so obvious that a moment's thought would have corrected this. There was some comment from the current Richthofen Squadron Leader and his pilots which really only showed the superficial knowledge they had of their dedicatee. The best stuff included film of a repro (Jacobs) Dr1 latched on the tail of an SE. Also good interviews with sons of 2 victims - one of them, Bird - a survivor, met MvR on the ground and was filmed doing so. He later told his son that he did not like the man at all and felt an air of menace about him. Of course he conceded that the man had just shot him down! I had hoped the BBC would do one of their comprehensive, objective analyses, but unfortunately there was far too much gossip and slipshod statement that could easily have been checked first. I think if you watched it with the sound turned down you would enjoy the new black Tripeand the old b&w footage, although they really ought to have said it was mostly 1930s Hollywood. Watch out for it on a channel near you soon - or don't. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 07:39:13 -0400 From: perrysm@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Oswald & the nurse Message-ID: <19980501.073914.4758.1.perrysm@juno.com> I heard somewhere that Oswald took a nurse joy riding in an E.III, having conducted similar operations myself in a C-150, I'd like to read more about it. Can anyone point me to such an account? What would one call that account? Boelcke Dicther? sorry, couldn't resist. Steven Perry perrysm@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:18:19 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Oswald & the nurse Message-ID: <3549D69D.4E80@bellsouth.net> perrysm@juno.com wrote: > > I heard somewhere that Oswald took a nurse joy riding in an E.III, having > conducted similar operations myself in a C-150, I'd like to read more > about it. Can anyone point me to such an account? So did you find the Cessna had a tendency to porpise(sp?) more than usual? And did you find that this only enhanced the experience? I did.:)! E. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 07:38:05 -0700 From: "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." To: wwi Subject: Re: Oswald & the nurse Message-ID: At 08:55 AM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >I heard somewhere that Oswald took a nurse joy riding in an E.III, having >conducted similar operations myself in a C-150, I'd like to read more >about it. Can anyone point me to such an account? > >What would one call that account? Boelcke Dicther? >sorry, couldn't resist. > >Steven Perry >perrysm@juno.com > The Boelcke biography, "Knight of Germany" by Johannes Werner has a photo of Nurse Blanka and Boelcke in the cockpit of the E. III. The Immelmann biography "Eagle of Lille" by his brother Franz Immelmann may have also mentioned the episode. Neither book has an index so I will have to hunt around for the passages. As I recall the incident, one or two nurses visited the aerodrome at Douai and Boelcke took Nurse Blanka, and maybe also the other one, up for a flight in the E III. When HQ found out about the episode, they were not amused and warned that such joyrides were strickly verbotten. Fernando Lamas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:02:29 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: WW I Sex Talk. Was: Gun Talk Message-ID: <3549E405.7232@bellsouth.net> Fernando E. Lamas, M.D. wrote: > > Ernest has a point there. Let's not be _too_ restrictive about the first > topic. WW I aviation had it's fair share of sex. Thanks for covering my retreat. Ernest circling back with a fresh drum... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:04:46 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: <3549E48E.7C47@bellsouth.net> Sandy Adam wrote: > > > EtAH > > No - EtE-CE > Ernest the Ever-Changing Epithet! > The Original I wear many hats on this pointy head.> > PS - I liked your earlier films best - the one where you went to Camp for > example. Yeah, that was alot more popular than my last film where I went to the proctologist. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:06:04 -0400 From: perrysm@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Oswald & the nurse Message-ID: <19980501.110604.27502.2.perrysm@juno.com> On Fri, 1 May 1998 10:24:33 -0400 Ernest Thomas writes: >perrysm@juno.com wrote: >> >> I heard somewhere that Oswald took a nurse joy riding in an E.III, >having >> conducted similar operations myself in a C-150, I'd like to read >more >> about it. Can anyone point me to such an account? > >So did you find the Cessna had a tendency to porpise(sp?) more than >usual? And did you find that this only enhanced the experience? >I did.:)! > >E. > Yeah, a bit, but the cramped quarters kept it from being the consumate experience we'd hoped for. I have to give Oswald credit though....he had the sense not to marry the nurse!! : ) sp _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:52:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Anarchists and Bolsheviks Message-ID: I always thought the Tsar was the Czar's evil twin brother. MZ On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Patrick Padovan wrote: > Dear Gents: I have always understood that the Russian revolution began > when the peasants realized that the Tsar and the Czar were the same > person! > Regards, Patrick > > (And with credit to Woody Allen!) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:56:00 -0500 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: Oswald & the nurse Message-ID: <3549F090.7BB1@bellsouth.net> perrysm@juno.com wrote: > > On Fri, 1 May 1998 10:24:33 -0400 Ernest Thomas > writes: > >perrysm@juno.com wrote: > >> > >> I heard somewhere that Oswald took a nurse joy riding in an E.III, > >having > >> conducted similar operations myself in a C-150, I'd like to read > >more > >> about it. Can anyone point me to such an account? > > > >So did you find the Cessna had a tendency to porpise(sp?) more than > >usual? And did you find that this only enhanced the experience? > >I did.:)! > > > >E. > > > Yeah, a bit, but the cramped quarters kept it from being the consumate > experience we'd hoped for. I have to give Oswald credit though....he had > the sense not to marry the nurse!! : ) > sp > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Is your hindsight 20/20? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:05:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF Message-ID: Many of the Alb D-III Oef's had a peculiar hood that covered the engine entirely. This hood would hide the gun tubes even more so regardless of high or low placement. One might consider using the engine hood, since it is a uniquely AH feature every bit as much as sworled camo. and rounded noses. MZ On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, David R.L. Laws wrote: > Richard, > > That swirling camoflage is a stunner isn't it > > Not much visible on the guns - They are buried in the OEF DIII about all > one sees at the " business end " are the blast tubes emerging from the > front of the cowling - This would be so unless your particular subject ( > machine ) had some unusual field modifications > > DAVID > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:09:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF Message-ID: Charles, Could you please send more information about this book? (Title, author, etc.) It might be available through the interlibrary loan service where I have been fortunate to get several of the books mentioned on the list. MZ On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Charles Hart wrote: > Probably a bit late now, but the best reference source on this machine is > this splendid 200+ page hard cover book published in Austria in the early > 1980's, it covers only the OEF D-III. Lots of nice photos, no color > illustrations. > > FWIW > > Charles > > hartc@spot.colorado.edu > > > > > > Here is a quick question for the team. I'm finishing up the Pegasus > > treatment of this bird in Blue Rider AH swirl fabric. (Interesting > > look) I assume that the guns on this animal are enclosed in the > > fuselage as they are on other AH aeroplanes. What, if any, outside > > appearance would the gun muzzles have and where? Any one else done > > this plane in swirl? > > > > List getting quieter with OTF weekend coming on. Wish I could have > > gone...... > > > > Regards, > > > > Richard > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:21:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Albatros III OEF Message-ID: Yes, Rob, I agree with your assessment. I remember also reading from information supplied by the list library that often pilots asked to have upper level guns placed in the lower position because of flash distraction and particle/oil fly-back. MZ On Fri, 1 May 1998, Rob. wrote: > > I'm working on a 1/48 Alb DIII Oef. conversion now and have > > received much appreciated data from list members particularly from a > > Datafile covering the subject. Don't assume the placement of the guns > > either buried below the exhaust tubes or above same. Look for > > information on a particular aircraft and go with that. The placement > > seems capricious and without pattern appearing alternately above and > > below especially in the later series. > I don't believe it was capricious. Most A-H aircraft had buried guns > in the early series (for entirely correct aerodynamic reasons) and > high-mounted, exposed guns in the late series (for more compelling > practical reasons--clearing jams/stoppages, mainly). Guns might also > have been moved by maintenance personnel after manufacture. > > I have only seen sworl applied to aircraft with buried guns. But > exposed guns can be found on series 153 and 253 Oeffags, as can > buried guns.I have only seen sworl on series 253 airplanes with > buried guns, though my selection of photos is very limited. > Rob > > To e-mail me, replace the l with the numeral 1. > > Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:22:54 EDT From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: rumination Message-ID: Amazing- a thread that began as an inquiry into DH4 markings unraveled into gun politics, Russian revolution, US presidents, Boelcke-the-mile-high dude, a slight digression into early newspaper funnies- whew! Throw in some intermitant Morane burps (actually about models and airplanes!) and you've got quite a stew. Robert K. the Amazed (Ernest isn't the only one who can autoepithetize!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:22:53 EDT From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: In a message dated 98-05-01 06:00:31 EDT, you write: << Or what. The Origina >> Original what? Robert KJ. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:25:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Gun Talk Message-ID: I agree entirely. Though this is a subject that I wish I could sink my teeth into, I could see where it can go on forever and will say no more (unless things get really boring.) MZ On Fri, 1 May 1998, Bill Shatzer wrote: > > > Charles writes: > > >Greeting all, > > > While I am adamantly opposed to limiting the rights of free speech on > >this list, what is shaping up below is an incredibly polarizing and > >argumentative exchange on the relative merits and lack thereof of the > >United States Constitution's second amendment. IT IS DECIDEDLY OFF TOPIC > >FOR THIS LIST. > > > Fight it out on your own time. > > >Rant mode off. > > Agreed. Having been guilty of an off topic posting myself > from time to time, I would be the last to condemn occassional off > topic banter. But, this _is_ a WW1 list and perhaps the discussion > of sex, religion, and politics (particularly the last two) might > be more fruitfully be conducted elsewhere? > > > > Cheers and all, > > > -- > Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:01:09 +0100 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: 20th Aero Squadron colors, equipment Message-ID: <199805011704.SAA29746@beryl.sol.co.uk> > The Origina >> > Original what? > Robert KJ. You have to keep up Robert (no comments about Boelcke keeping it up please!) Adam (The Original) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: BBC1 Program "Aviators-The Red Baron" Message-ID: Dear Graham: re converting a U.K. "PAL" format video to U.S. "VHS": many video businesses who do video copying and conversion from film to tape, etc., have the facility to copy PAL to VHS. I know this because I picked up a couple of Red Dwarf Vids on a UK vacation a few years back (at that time, these vids weren't available here, an oversight since remedied!) and was quite pleased to find that a local video store was able to transfer them to VHS for me. It wasn't expensive. Having said that, your detailed reveiw of the program does not leave me with a hankering to see it. It sounds an awful lot like a program that's been floating around here since the late seventies. In the program that I'm refering to, MvR's entire military experience prior to his transfer to aviation, is dismissed with the line, "Manfred von Richthofen, a former supply clerk, joined the aviation service in 1915." Arch Whitehouse is presented as an expert witness. Enough said. Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 1 May 1998, Graham Nash wrote: > For those not in the UK, and unable to see this recently (Wednesday) > screened new program, the following critic, written by > A.C.Marsh@btinternet.com, and posted to 'The Aerodrome' may prove > interesting. > > QUOTE > > After my initial euphoria in the first few minutes that the BBC had > decided to produce quite a lengthy > programme on a subject so dear to my heart and despite unprecedented > access to a number of the current von > Richthofen family, I'm afraid to say I've been left quite disappointed > by the result of their efforts, especially after the splendid series War > Walks. > > The use of 'dubious' combat footage can be forgiven but the continual > dotage on the DRI cannot, despite a one line comment that only 19 of his > victories were gained in this 'mediocre' aircraft could have been > better. > > More serious criticisms lie in the following areas: > 1) Failure to mention anything about his experiences in the cavalry and > the lack of action as the reason for his transfer to the flying service. > 2) The criminal offence lies in the near complete failure to mention > Oswald Boelcke's contribution to MvR's career, the German air service > and fighter combat in general. The throwaway line that MvR was deeply > effected when Boelcke, "another member of the sqadron" was killed, is > just not acceptable. > 3) The glossing over of his fight with Lanoe Hawker and failure to > mention MvR's vastly superior Albatros over the DH2 was quite poor. > 4) Even moreso was the failure to mention that he was shot down by an > FE2b which was obselete by then. > 5) Failure to mention the severe headaches he suffered after that. > 6) No real mention of Lothar. > 7) No real discussion about the events on 21st April,1918. > > Given all the above the programme did very well on the human side and > the contribution of the family and members of the current Richthofen > 'geschwader was very interesting. > > I could probably continue bitching and moaning for hours but on a > positive side, as far as I'm concerned, anything that raises awareness > and interest in WWI aviation is a good thing.So the end of term report > is 'must try harder' especially in the light that there has been more > written about MvR than any other aviator. > > P.S. There appeared to be no overseas tie ins with other T.V. stations > so I don't know if this programme will be picked up in the US. > > UNQUOTE > > I did video the program if anyone is desparate, but I am unsure how > US/NTSC users would get to see it. > > As a matter of interest, the next program appears to be inter-war up to > Spanish Civil war, and may contain footage of Lindburg, Goering and > Udet. > > Happy modelling > ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 1004 **********************