WWI Digest 825 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Gontermann's Jasta 5 Markings by bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 2) Off topic SE5a&Hurricane by bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 3) '97 Productivity Review by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) 4) Re: WWI Fighter Bombers by DavidL1217 5) Re: WWI Fighter Bombers-rockets by KarrArt 6) Re: '97 Productivity Review by "Leonard Endy" 7) Re: WWI Fighter Bombers by Carlos Valdes 8) Re: WWI Fighter Bombers by bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 9) RE: New Thread/WWI Calendars by Shane Weier 10) Re: New Thread/WWI Calendars by KarrArt 11) Re: WWI Fighter Bombers-rockets by "Sandy Adam" 12) Re: New Thread/WWI Calendars by "Paul Schwartzkopf" 13) Happy New Year by Shane Weier 14) Re: New Thread/WWI Calendars by Ernest Thomas 15) Re: Gontermann's Jasta 5 Markings by "Charles Duckworth" 16) Re: WWI Fighter Bombers-rockets by Charles Hart 17) Fokker DII colors by "Charles Duckworth" 18) Re: Fokker DII colors by KarrArt 19) Moran Saulnier Type H kit: by Patrick Padovan 20) Re: Moran Saulnier Type H kit: by "Charles Duckworth" 21) Re: Fokker DII colors by "Charles Duckworth" 22) 1998 by Carlos Valdes 23) Mushy beer-soaked New Year Stuff by KarrArt 24) Re: Happy New Year by REwing 25) Re: Happy New Year by "Chris Banyai-Riepl" 26) Re: Moran Saulnier Type H kit: by Riordan and Michelle Goodwin 27) Happy 98 guys by Pedro Nuno Soares 28) Additional Morane G or H 1/48th kit sources by "Charles Duckworth" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:17:57 -0500 From: bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Gontermann's Jasta 5 Markings Message-ID: <199712310117.UAA01569@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 12:14 AM 12/29/97 -0500, Charles/Linda Duckworth wrote: > At 12:14 PM 12/28/97 -0500, Charles/Linda Duckworth wrote: >> >I've looked through a couple sources and can't seem to find what the >colors >> >would be for Gontermann's Albatros D-III in March 1917 when he was with >> >Jasta 5. >> > >> >Any help (guesses, opinions or SWAG's) would be appreciated, Charlie Charlie I was wrong in my earlier post. The article was on Lt. Roth, not Gontermann..although I believe both were balloon busters. If you want thet stuff on Roth, send your mailing address and I'll get it out pronto. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:17:54 -0500 From: bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Off topic SE5a&Hurricane Message-ID: <199712310117.UAA01567@pease1.sr.unh.edu> A brief interruption to this list. I've started collecting stuff for the SE5a and Hurricane project suggested earlier. I remember Joey wanted to be kept informed, but I forget who else was interested. Anyone wanting updates, contact me off line: bucky@mail.ptd.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:39:36 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) To: wwi Subject: '97 Productivity Review Message-ID: Hello list, As 1997 draws to a close, I'm taking a moment to look back at my first year on this list, and my first year back at modeling. I've really enjoyed your company and have learned so much. As a few of you might remember, I got involved with this list because I wanted to put together an armada of 1/72 scale playing pieces for my favorite WWI air game, Wings. I started last December with Al's website, a couple of Airfix kits, a few books by Peter Kilduff, and a credit card. Has it only been a year? Today, I looked at a cupboard full of model boxes and a shelf stuffed with over 40 books! Aaaak! The year started with the slapping together of 10 quick kits to limber up the fingers and recall what few modeling skills I had 20 years ago. Over the course of '97, I've started 22 models, but have so far only managed to complete three. Five more are pretty much done, but still require decals, a little more paint and rigging. The rest will all get attention over the next few years, I suppose, but there are so many cool new kits coming out, I wonder if some members of the '97 production batch won't get left behind for good. As I've learned more from the list, I've found myself becoming mildly obsessed with technique and "correctness" of the finished piece. I don't think it's full-blown AMS yet, but it's feverishly close. Nasty side-effects of my affliction have been passed on to my wife, who while looking over my Christmas wish list was disgusted to realize that she knew what FMP stood for, along with A-H Empire. Poor girl! My modeling high for the year was building the Pegasus Pfalz DIIIa - I love the plane, and this one awaits the finishing touches which will turn it into a meek replica of Holtzen's Jasta 16b comet machine. My modeling low was the Airfix Sopwith 2F1 - wretched - I threw it away. I owe you fellows an incredible debt of gratitude. You've been patient with my novice queries, helpful beyond measure, and have opened the doors to a wonderful hobby (which now appears to be going beyond the mere collecting of game pieces!). On to '98, and good luck! Kevin Barrett. PS: Yes, yes, yes, I'm still working on that dang 1/48 scale triplane, but it's very intimidating. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:47:06 EST From: DavidL1217 To: wwi Subject: Re: WWI Fighter Bombers Message-ID: <2a1c6b43.34a9a41c@aol.com> As part of a Red Baron II discussion, I am trying to figure out the historical uses of rockets and bombs in single seater aircraft. My understanding that the Le Preir (sp?) rockets were used on Nieuport 11's, N.16's and Pups in very limited numbers. Did anybody else use rockets on the Western Front? Were bomb racks attached to fighters as common practise? I have heard that Camels were on occassion and that the DH5 was converted to a ground attack roll as such. But to my knowlege the Germans and French did not employ their single seaters as such. Any word or sources for this? I have been in discussion with an avid Red Baron II group and Dynamix. I feel that the use of bombs and rockets in the flight sim by single seaters is off base. I welcome feedback. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:06:33 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: WWI Fighter Bombers-rockets Message-ID: <69e410cd.34a9b6bd@aol.com> In a message dated 97-12-30 21:11:37 EST, you write: << My understanding that the Le Preir (sp?) rockets were used on Nieuport 11's, N.16's and Pups in very limited numbers. Did anybody else use rockets on the Western Front? >> Air Enthusiast 14 had a long article by Grosz and Ferko about the Halb.fighters.The article had some interesting digressions about German rocket use.Seems a Lt.Rudolph Nebel of Jasta 5 made his own from signal rockets fired from lengths of stovepipe mounted beneath his Halb D II lower wings- 2 to a side.He actually scored a kill against an English plane.A few weeks later he mounted the mess on a new Alb D III and blew his propeller off and set his wings on fire! In the fall of 1916 the Halb D II was also used in official tests of a Le Prieur copy.These were mounted just as on the Nieuports- angled upward,4 to a side.The Germans declared the tests unsuccessful. A fuzzy memory of some Farman pusher with Le Prieurs is starting to invade my mind...... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 06:08:12 GMT From: "Leonard Endy" To: wwi Subject: Re: '97 Productivity Review Message-ID: <34aae00d.26572349@legend.firstsaga.com> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:41:47 -0500, you wrote: >I've really enjoyed your company and have learned so much. As a few of = you >might remember, I got involved with this list because I wanted to put >together an armada of 1/72 scale playing pieces for my favorite WWI air >game, Wings. I started last December with Al's website, a couple of = Airfix >kits, a few books by Peter Kilduff, and a credit card. Better find one of those new platinum cards, it takes a little longer for them to hit the "meltdown" stage. > Nasty >side-effects of my affliction have been passed on to my wife, who while >looking over my Christmas wish list was disgusted to realize that she = knew >what FMP stood for, along with A-H Empire. Poor girl! > Way to go Kevin. My better-half is very tolerant of my model building but FMP and such would mean nothing to her. She's from the "They're Really Cute" camp. Still, I think I'll keep her around. Happy New Year! Len Endy lfendy@firstsaga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:54:09 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Re: WWI Fighter Bombers Message-ID: <34A9C1E1.3B95@conted.gatech.edu> David, > My understanding that the Le Preir (sp?) rockets were used on Nieuport 11's, > N.16's and Pups in very limited numbers. Did anybody else use rockets on the > Western Front? Not exactly the Western Front itself, but BE 12s (and maybe others?) used rockets while on home defense duties in England. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:06:33 -0500 From: bucky@mail.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: WWI Fighter Bombers Message-ID: <199712310506.AAA02013@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 09:13 PM 12/30/97 -0500, DavidL1217 wrote: >As part of a Red Baron II discussion, I am trying to figure out the historical >uses of rockets and bombs in single seater aircraft. > >My understanding that the Le Preir (sp?) rockets were used on Nieuport 11's, >N.16's and Pups in very limited numbers. Did anybody else use rockets on the >Western Front? I'm sure I've seen a photo of a SPAD-7 or 13 with the rockets. The Italians also used rockets on a Nieuport 11. HTH Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:59:06 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: wwi Subject: RE: New Thread/WWI Calendars Message-ID: <199712310520.PAA03842@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hi all, For what it's worth there's a rather nice calendar of Aviation Art which I *believe* is entirely WW1 released by *I think* the National Aeronautical and Space Museum of Australia. In any even, it's available at my local Military Bookshop (Napoleons) for A$20 or thereabouts. If anyone is interested let me know and i'll do a recce and give you more info >Geez, I wish. The old C&C U.S.A. put out a calender for a couple of >years-this was WAY back. I didn't know the San Diego Museum had >done one.If I ever stumble across a few thousand spare dollars I'll do my >own! The paintings I recall in the calendar mentioned above were similar in quality to the OtF covers - so pretty nice stuff. Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:48:59 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: New Thread/WWI Calendars Message-ID: <21bf4edb.34a9eadd@aol.com> In a message dated 97-12-31 00:13:41 EST, you write: << For what it's worth there's a rather nice calendar of Aviation Art which I *believe* is entirely WW1 released by *I think* the National Aeronautical and Space Museum of Australia. In any even, it's available at my local Military Bookshop (Napoleons) for A$20 or thereabouts. If anyone is interested let me know and i'll do a recce and give you more info >> Yeah, I'm always curious about things like this- if it's an art calender, I'd like to know who did the work Thanks Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:13:45 -0000 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: WWI Fighter Bombers-rockets Message-ID: <199712311115.LAA14980@beryl.sol.co.uk> Seems a Lt.Rudolph Nebel of Jasta 5 made his own from signal rockets > fired from lengths of stovepipe mounted beneath his Halb D II lower wings- 2 > to a side. ...... Heh, heh, heh, bound to go wrong with a name like that. ("Nebel" is German for "Mist"!) Sandy (And "Mist" is German for something much more earthy and unacceptable - as Rolls-Royce found to their horror when they provisionally stuck "Silver Mist" badges on a new car (The Silver Spirit) and showed it to their German dealers.) Oh, back on topic - the RFC experimented with Le Prieurs on most single seaters at the time and I have photos somewhere of Sopwith Pups, Strutters and I think a Bristol Scout wearing them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:25:18 +0000 From: "Paul Schwartzkopf" To: wwi Subject: Re: New Thread/WWI Calendars Message-ID: <199712310354.VAA12049@tscrypt1.transcrypt.com> First off, Happy New year to all. As far as a calendar goes, I know it may be a little late for this year, but what about making our own for next year? There are several artists on our list who have great profiles, and I know that a copy service (such as Kinko's) will make calendars for a price. What about a list collaboration to turn out one for 1999? We still might be able to get 1998, too. Any inputs or volunteers? Paul A. Schwartzkopf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:00:20 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi'" Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: <199712311411.AAA09420@mimmon.mim.com.au> To the List, a New Years Wish (or two) May your dream subjects appear in injection kits at giveaway prices Your rigging be taught and easily applied Your details fine and impervious to accidental damage =DDour alignment impeccable (and the models too ;-) Dihedral match the plans Stagger match the rigging manual Sweep perfect, paint work better still, decals crisp clean and in the right place and.. may at least some of your models actually get built and not just remain a New Years resolution! Good Cheer and Happy New Year folks !! Shane ( I solemnly resolve to finish ths f*****g Biff ) (unless something else comes up) (...anything else) (.......please) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:30:10 -0600 From: Ernest Thomas To: wwi Subject: Re: New Thread/WWI Calendars Message-ID: <34AA56F2.20B3@bellsouth.net> Paul Schwartzkopf wrote: > > First off, Happy New year to all. > > As far as a calendar goes, I know it may be a little late for this year, > but what about making our own for next year? There are several > artists on our list who have great profiles, and I know that a copy > service (such as Kinko's) will make calendars for a price. What > about a list collaboration to turn out one for 1999? We still might > be able to get 1998, too. Any inputs or volunteers? > > Paul A. Schwartzkopf I would but one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:41:46 -0800 From: "Charles Duckworth" To: Subject: Re: Gontermann's Jasta 5 Markings Message-ID: <199712311440.IAA05903@mail.primary.net> I was wrong in my earlier post. The article was on Lt. Roth, not Gontermann..although I believe both were balloon busters. If you want thet stuff on Roth, send your mailing address and I'll get it out pronto. Mike Muth Mike, thanks for the offer but I believe I have what I need on Gontermann have a Happy New Year, Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:49:19 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: WWI Fighter Bombers-rockets Message-ID: >Seems a Lt.Rudolph Nebel of Jasta 5 made his own from signal rockets >> fired from lengths of stovepipe mounted beneath his Halb D II lower >wings- 2 >> to a side. >..... >Heh, heh, heh, bound to go wrong with a name like that. ("Nebel" is German >for "Mist"!) >Sandy > >(And "Mist" is German for something much more earthy and unacceptable - as >Rolls-Royce found to their horror when they provisionally stuck "Silver >Mist" badges on a new car (The Silver Spirit) and showed it to their German >dealers.) > >Oh, back on topic - the RFC experimented with Le Prieurs on most single >seaters at the time and I have photos somewhere of Sopwith Pups, Strutters >and I think a Bristol Scout wearing them. I recall the heading photo for a Windsock article on Le Prieurs (by esteemable H. Woodman) showing a Sopwith Baby letting loose a salvo, no doubt for benefit of the camera. Happy 1998 to all on this List. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:59:47 -0800 From: "Charles Duckworth" To: "ww1list" Subject: Fokker DII colors Message-ID: <199712311758.LAA19227@mail.primary.net> In looking through Ray Rimmel's Arms and Armor Press book there are a couple of air to air shots (pix 52, 53 and 54) of a Fokker DII in a three color camouflage scheme, is this assumed to be green/brown and CDL? Charlie Duckworth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:39:43 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Fokker DII colors Message-ID: In a message dated 97-12-31 13:06:36 EST, you write: << In looking through Ray Rimmel's Arms and Armor Press book there are a couple of air to air shots (pix 52, 53 and 54) of a Fokker DII in a three color camouflage scheme, is this assumed to be green/brown and CDL? Charlie Duckworth >> There's another photo of this particular airplane shot during this same in- flight sequence but it's not shown in Vintage Warbirds #9.This picture has been in several books including V.W.#6 Fokker Fighters of World War One by Imrie.The caption states that this is Otto Kissenberth when he was with FFA 9b flying Fokker D II 540/16 over Colmar.Now I quote "This machine has had additional camouflage applied in the field, including the removal of the large white backgrounds to the national insignia on the upper wing. Note how uneven the white borders to the black crosses have become".As to the exact colors I've read a lot of speculative things but nothing definite. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:51:38 -0800 (PST) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Moran Saulnier Type H kit: Message-ID: Greetings, gents! I thought some of you might be interested, and especially in light of the recent discussion of the Temske/ Francesco Morane Saulnier Type I/N kit in 1/72, to know that APC Hobbies, out of Earlysville, VA, have the following listed in their most recent update: "Russian Co (injected) 1/72 Morane Saulnier Type I/N $6.00 1/48 Morane Saulnier Type H $9.00" Now, I think we all know that the Type I is the much discussed Temske offering, but is anybody familar with a 1/48 Type H kit? Also, if anyone gets one of these, please let us know what you think. I've got the Type I/N, and don't currently plan on ordering the H myself. Also, in view of the date, I'd just like to wish you all a very happy 1998, and wish you prosperity and joy throughout the next year and all those which follow. I joined this list in 1997, and have really enjoyed being a part of it. Thanks, guys! Happy New Year! Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:03:36 -0800 From: "Charles Duckworth" To: Subject: Re: Moran Saulnier Type H kit: Message-ID: <199712312202.QAA13596@mail.primary.net> I built the Russian 1/48th kit; if its the same model as Rosemont had several years ago it was originally 'kitted' as a 'G' type but it's really an H after comparing it to plans in FMP Russian book, it's a nice basis model for $9.00. Wings, fuselage and tail were fine u/c struts/bracing somewhat thick and engine needs to be replaced with Aeroclub 7 cylinder Gnome. I recently finished mine as a Belgian a/c as noted in FMP French book on pg. 313. Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:04:59 -0800 From: "Charles Duckworth" To: Subject: Re: Fokker DII colors Message-ID: <199712312203.QAA13859@mail.primary.net> Robert - thanks I'll also look in Volume 6. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:21:44 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: 1998 Message-ID: <34AAC578.513C@conted.gatech.edu> Happy new year to all (though those of us in the States are not quite there yet). May 1998 bring all of us much modeling pleasure--and many new kits and references! I'll just have to resolve to finish building something next year . . . :-) Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:11:51 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Mushy beer-soaked New Year Stuff Message-ID: In a message dated 97-12-31 16:50:06 EST, you write: << Also, in view of the date, I'd just like to wish you all a very happy 1998, and wish you prosperity and joy throughout the next year and all those which follow. I joined this list in 1997, and have really enjoyed being a part of it. Thanks, guys! Happy New Year! Patrick >> Same fits here! May all of you find modeling delight in whatever scale you choose! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:27:12 EST From: REwing To: wwi Subject: Re: Happy New Year Message-ID: In a message dated 97-12-31 09:01:35 EST, Shane wrote: << may at least some of your models actually get built and not just remain a New Years resolution! >> BOY, Do I hear that!!!!!! I just realized I only completed one model this year, but have about six in various stages of construction. Oh well, next year. ;^} Happy New Year Cheers, Rick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:23:30 -0800 From: "Chris Banyai-Riepl" To: Subject: Re: Happy New Year Message-ID: <01bd1643$1ae24be0$974ffbce@chrisban> You know, I find that New Year's is the best time to build a model. After many toasts to the new year, and toasts to the old year, and toasts to new friends found, and toasts to old friends long gone, and toasts to those cute little sandwiches, and toasts to each of the crystals in the chandelier, and toasts to, well, toasts, I find that my models are museum quality replicas that one could use as a template to build a life-size airplane. The only problem I've discovered is that someone keeps taking these perfect models and replacing them with mediocre copies in the morning. If I ever catch that guy.... Have a happy new year! Chris Banyai-Riepl .. "One must be a wise reader to quote wisely and well." A. Bronson Alcott (1799-1888), U.S. educator, social reformer. Table Talk, bk. 1, "Quotation" (1877). .. Alga Computer Systems http://willapabay.org/~herper/ .. Aviation What-Not http://www.willapabay.org/~herper/aviation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:39:00 -0800 From: Riordan and Michelle Goodwin To: wwi Subject: Re: Moran Saulnier Type H kit: Message-ID: <34AAD794.59BE@ricochet.net> Charles Duckworth wrote: >it's a nice basis model for $9.00. Wings, fuselage and tail were fine u/c struts/bracing somewhat thick and engine needs to be replaced with Aeroclub 7 cylinder Gnome. I concur with Charlie on this one. Not a bad kit, and although the engine is less than perfect (maybe a tad undersized), it can be cleaned up and used in a pinch. Unusual subject at the right price. I'm converting mine to a Pfalz E.I. Cheers, Salud, Prosit & Happy New Year! Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:35:52 +0100 From: Pedro Nuno Soares To: "'ww1 modeling list'" Subject: Happy 98 guys Message-ID: <01BD1645.09FEF420@fei1-p5.telepac.pt> Hi gang It's 23.30 around here and I'm raising my glass to you all. Thanks for sharing it all. Happy 98 Um enorme abraco Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:44:53 -0800 From: "Charles Duckworth" To: "ww1list" Subject: Additional Morane G or H 1/48th kit sources Message-ID: <199801010043.SAA13239@mail.primary.net> A friend recently returned all of my old Windsock back issues and as I was looking them over last night here are two issues that covered the Morane G/H: Volume 10 No. 4 July/Aug 1994 plans for the G with lots of Russian photos/color profiles. Volume 10 No. 1 Jan/Feb 1994 kit review on the 1/48 type G made by Modelist; Rimmel advises the kit is actually an 'H'. Charlie Duckworth set wwi mail ack end ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 825 *********************