WWI Digest 813 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Albatros Conversion by John & Allison Cyganowski 2) RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly by Matthew Zivich 3) RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 4) Re: Munson accuracy, continued by KarrArt 5) RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly by "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" 6) Re: Munson accuracy, continued by Matthew Zivich 7) Re: Albatros Conversion by Joey Valenciano 8) Merry Xmas. by Pedro Nuno Soares 9) Re: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly by Pedro Nuno Soares 10) aerial photography by KarrArt 11) Re: Merry Xmas. by KarrArt 12) Re: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly by "Sandy Adam" 13) Kit of the year by "Sandy Adam" 14) Re: Albatros Conversion by John & Allison Cyganowski 15) Hope for Us by John & Allison Cyganowski 16) RE: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly by Pedro Nuno Soares 17) Re: Merlin Friedrichshafen G.III by DavidL1217 18) Re: Kit of the year by kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) 19) Re: Hope for Us by DavidL1217 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:51:04 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi Subject: Albatros Conversion Message-ID: <349AB408.831@worldnet.att.net> There is another option to a 1/48 Albatros D.I A friend and I have produced a a resin conversion kit to convert the Glencoe or the upcoming Eduard D.III to a D.II Our plan is to begin to market this very soon under the name Passchendale. The scope of the kit is: Wings (Upper & Lower) Windhoff Radiators Coolant Reservoir/Expansion Tank Separate Wheel Hubs with O-ring Tires (in-progress) Decals (in progress) Instructions (a masochist’s guide to the Glencoe - in-progress) Of course, it will be necessary to reshape the upper wing cut out and scratch struts but that shouldn’t be too hard. Happy Holidays John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:39:25 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly Message-ID: O.K. I thought so, but according to Hiro this marking wasn't used prior to the 1920's if I understood his last message correctly. This runs counter to some illustrations I've seen of Sop. 1 1/2's with large red circles on their wings from WW-I. If this is in error, what national markings were used by the Japanese during WWI? Matt Z. On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Paul Schwartzkopf wrote: > > Explanation please. What is a Hinomaru? Is that the national > > marking or red circle? > > > Matt Z > > Yes - that is the red circular national marking. > > Paul A. Schwartzkopf > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:50:15 -0600 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly Message-ID: <01BD0C7C.A84F76E0.panz-meador@vsti.com> i seem to recall that the japanese hinomara wasn't used until the 20's. until then, japanese characters were carries on the wings; i'm under the impression that these were either ID numbers or unit IDs (perhaps similar to depot markings here in the US...). there looks to be a series starting up in blue rider's "insignia" magazine concerning early aviation in japan (i think it's in no. 5 or 6 of the mag., and is "to be continued"--squadron mail order carries these guys, or they can be ordered directly from blue rider). also, check the thread on this topic. someone may be able to confirm or deny the stuff above. regarding chinese markings (the 5-color star), the book "color profiles of ww1 combat planes" has 2 color profiles of land/floatplane versions of the french G_____ 3 in these markings (drat--i can't remember--it was a french bomber type, not a farman, not a voison--the fuesalege was a pod between the biplane wings, the the G_____ 4 was a G____ 3 with twin motors). if anyone is interested, i could dig these out? huzzah for info on the secondary fronts! i'd like to see more of it too... hope this helps happy holidays to all, phillip anz-meador -----Original Message----- From: mark [SMTP:lothar@televar.com] Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 12:42 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly Matt Z. opines: > It's an interesting subject to study, since, for some of us at >least, it is an area where there is not too much information available. >And it raises interesting questions for the modeler who wishes to >explore other aspects of the air war, 1914-18. I'd like to know more >about Japanese aircraft and markings used in China during the War as well >as Chinese 'craft with Chinese markings (multi-colored star). Janes Aircraft of WWI has a brief section on Japanese aviation, a list of types used include Sopwith Tabloid floatplanes, Teller flying boats, Short seaplanes, and Farman land and float planes. Nothing on markings, though I believe hinomarus were used in WWI as well as WWII. As for Chinese....ya got me on that one! I think >these examples are valid in extending the full range of WW I interests. Absolutely. The more I get back into this pursuit the more I discover there was a <>> going on during WWI in places other than the Western front! Why the frequently overlooked aviation efforts of smaller and/or more out of the way countries in distant theatres of WWI seem to be ignored by researchers and authors, all while the latest theory on Richtofens demise, or whether the stripes on Udets DVII were straight or crooked gets debated endlessly, is one of my few pet peeves. This is especially true as time takes us further and further away from the WWI years - somehow I can't help feeling that with every passing year there's more and more that we're never going to know about... >Eventually Eduard may even produce a kit of a plane with Portuguese markings! Portuguese markings? What would they look like? On what types? I have to admit that, until I read Martin Gilbert's history of WWI, I didn't even know Portugal had been a participant. Evidently they did send a sizeable - for a country of their size - expeditionary force. Didn't know this included an air service, but...??? In his book, Gilbert makes a reference to the St. Mihiel offensive and states "In the air, the largest ever number of aircraft were in combat, with 1,483 American, French, Italian, Belgian, Portuguese and Brazilian planes, all under American command..." Portuguese? Brazilian? Anybody care to take a stab at this one? Pedro? Inquiring minds want to know... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:45:52 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Munson accuracy, continued Message-ID: In a message dated 97-12-19 12:53:34 EST, you write: << Both had a neutral or CDL covering virtually overall with many > > fairly evenly spaced "matchstick" or thin rectangular forms approx. one > > yrd. long as a rough guess. These matchsticks generally pointed in the same > > direction but with a slight change to create a subtle wavey pattern. > > They were neutral earth colors as I recall: browns, red-browns, greens and > > darker than the CDL. I don't recall if they ran perp. or parallel to the > > wings and body. >> I'm looking at the book right now and in the back there's a short appendix explaining how some of the schemes were developed.Ian Hunley was deeply involved.Anyway, there is one of Huntley's sketches and it shows the Alb B II with these curious "match head" stripes.No photo reference is given but this color scheme is said to date from circa April 1916- and it also says this is a German, not an A/H aircraft.The stripes are said to be appox. 6" wide and between 1' 3" and 2' 9" long. But I want a photo citation! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:09:04 -0600 From: "Dr. Phillip Anz-Meador" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly Message-ID: <01BD0C7F.49022860.panz-meador@vsti.com> hey, you're right. the ref to the sotwith 1-1/2 strutter jogged my memory. there are illustrations of 2 japanese strutters in "aircraft in profile" (no. 123, vol. 6 of the doubleday collected profiles). the one in what appears to be standard brit. camo carries himomaras and is purported to have been with the japanese siberian expeditionary force in 1918 (russian civil war, siberian republic style). the other is in clear doped linen overall. looks like you've got be careful interpreting b/w photos of these guys, though, as they were also used by the dutch, whose national marking at that time was an orange ball. phillip anz-meador -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Zivich [SMTP:mzivich@tardis.svsu.edu] Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 12:43 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Photo interpretation/Turk.BuffsOnly O.K. I thought so, but according to Hiro this marking wasn't used prior to the 1920's if I understood his last message correctly. This runs counter to some illustrations I've seen of Sop. 1 1/2's with large red circles on their wings from WW-I. If this is in error, what national markings were used by the Japanese during WWI? Matt Z. On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Paul Schwartzkopf wrote: > > Explanation please. What is a Hinomaru? Is that the national > > marking or red circle? > > > Matt Z > > Yes - that is the red circular national marking. > > Paul A. Schwartzkopf > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:06:13 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Zivich To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Munson accuracy, continued Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, KarrArt wrote: > In a message dated 97-12-19 12:53:34 EST, you write: > > << Both had a neutral or CDL covering virtually overall with many > > > fairly evenly spaced "matchstick" or thin rectangular forms approx. one > > > yrd. long as a rough guess. These matchsticks generally pointed in the > same > > > direction but with a slight change to create a subtle wavey pattern. > > > They were neutral earth colors as I recall: browns, red-browns, greens > and > > > darker than the CDL. I don't recall if they ran perp. or parallel to the > > > wings and body. >> > > I'm looking at the book right now and in the back there's a short appendix > explaining how some of the schemes were developed.Ian Hunley was deeply > involved.Anyway, there is one of Huntley's sketches and it shows the Alb B II > with these curious "match head" stripes.No photo reference is given but this > color scheme is said to date from circa April 1916- and it also says this is a > German, not an A/H aircraft.The stripes are said to be appox. 6" wide and > between 1' 3" and 2' 9" long. But I want a photo citation! > Robert > Wasn't it often the case on the German side that ad hoc improvisations were utilized with some rather imaginative camouflage on helmets, tanks and perhaps even aircraft? And that it's likely that no photographs exist. New subject: Does anyone have a comment to make about WWI aerial photos. I found one in a second-hand Harleyford book. It's a shot of the western front taken possibly a few days before the Armistice. It's in very good shape, a bit sepia in color, but otherwise quite legible. It was taken by an Amer. observation unit. Matt Z ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:11:49 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Albatros Conversion Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971220081149.006dbb60@philonline.com.ph> At 12:58 PM 12/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >There is another option to a 1/48 Albatros D.I A friend and I have produced a a resin >conversion kit to convert the Glencoe or the upcoming Eduard D.III to a D.II Go for it. >The scope of the kit is: > >Wings (Upper & Lower) (snip) >Of course, it will be necessary to reshape the upper wing cut out Why would it be necessary to reshape the cut out if you're making a new wing? BTW, wouldn't your providing these parts mean that they could also be used to make a D.I? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:27:21 +0100 From: Pedro Nuno Soares To: "'ww1 modeling list'" Subject: Merry Xmas. Message-ID: <01BD0CE7.261DAE60@fei1-p5.telepac.pt> Guys, Merry Xmas and a very happy new year. May 1998 be your better year ever and yet not half as good as those that will come therafter. It's great to be on this list. Um abraco Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:23:22 +0100 From: Pedro Nuno Soares To: "'ww1 modeling list'" Subject: Re: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly Message-ID: <01BD0CE7.232BE5A0@fei1-p5.telepac.pt> Eventually Eduard may even produce a kit of a plane with Portuguese = markings! >=20 > Portuguese markings? What would they look like? On what types? I have = to > admit that, until I read Martin Gilbert's history of WWI, I didn't = even know > Portugal had been a participant. Evidently they did send a sizeable - = for a > country of their size - expeditionary force. Didn't know this included = an > air service, but...??? In his book, Gilbert makes a reference to the = St. > Mihiel offensive and states "In the air, the largest ever number of = aircraft > were in combat, with 1,483 American, French, Italian, Belgian, = Portuguese > and Brazilian planes, all under American command..." Portuguese? > Brazilian? Anybody care to take a stab at this one? Pedro? >=20 > Inquiring minds want to know... >=20 > Mark Hi guys, Let me see if I can give you some info as to the participation of = Portuguese aircraft in WW1. War was declared by Germany on Portugal on March,9. 1916 following the = confiscation, requested by the UK, a long time allied country, of = several German merchant ships anchored at Llisbon harbour.=20 As to the role of the Portuguese air Force let me quote from the book Os = avioes da Cruz de Cristo, by Mario Canongia Lopes and Jose Manuel = Rodrigues Costa: In July, 2nd, 1917 Captain Norberto Guimar=E3es was given command of the = "Aviation Services" of the recently created "Portuguese Expeditionary = Corps", who was by then fighting the German in France. These services had their HQ in Paris and there arrangements were made = for the Portuguese pilots and mechanics who were to be allocated to the = future Squadrons, to be accepted in French flight training units. At the same time in 20-8-17, the "Esquadrilha Inicial - E.I" (Inicial = Squadron) was created with a view to organize the cadre of personnel = that was going to be sent to France. All available Pilots, Observers and mechanics plus several officers, who = volunteered to serve in the Air corps, a total of about 60 pilots (the = majority) and observers and 40 mechanics left for France and for = England, to attend basic instruction or advanced training schools. As = such, those pilots who had already some flying hours were admitted into = fighting, aerobatics, night flying and shooting schools in Avord, Pau, = Istres and Cazaux. 30 cadet pilots - included in the above mentioned total of 60 pilots - = went to the Elementary Instruction School of Juvisy, also in France. The observers went to England while the 40 mechanics ...... went to the = St. Cyr workshops, close to Paris, where they remained until being = dispatched to the front. By the Ordem de Comando n.1 (Comand Order) of the Aviation services, = issued in 15-12-17, the creation of the First Squadron Group was = determined. This was a mixed Group with a fighter squadron and 2 fire = adjustment squadrons. There were also plans for the creation of a = further second Group. The aircraft were to be given by the UK but the British government = suddenly decided not to supply any aircraft. The training of Portuguese = observers in British air bases didn't take place either. This was = probably related to the fact that a revolution had taken place in = Portugal in 8-12-17, led by the military under the command of Sidonio = Pais, who was believed to be pro-german. Since the Portuguese pilots were anxious to fly in France on the allied = side, General Gomes da Costa, commander of the Portuguese Expeditionary = Corps, and the "Commandant-en-chef" of the French North and Northeast = Armies, issued the permission for 31 Portuguese Pilots and 30 Mechanics = to attend the "Grouppe de Divisions d'Etrainement" in Plsessis-Belville. ...... Meanwhile the political orientation established by Sidonio Pais, = determined that no more expeditionary forces were to be sent to France = and also that all flying personnel should return to the country, = including personnel already incorporated into French Squadrons. Nevertheless, 13 Portuguese Pilots choose to keep on fighting, the most = noteworthy of them all being captain Oscar Monteiro Torres, who = Ramires - (1884 -1919) - N158 (Laon) - Ni.17 / Br. 14-A2 Lt. Joao Salgueiro Valente - (1888-1828) - idem Lt. Jones da Silveira (1890-1928) - C.278 - Sopwith 2-A2 (1 1/2 = Strutter) Alferes Eduardo Santos Moreira - idem Lt Jose Pereira gomes Junior (1891-1953) -SAL 263 - Salmson 2A2 / = Salmson 4-AC-2 / Salmson 16 Lt. Ulisses Augusto Alves (1892 - 1922) - idem Apart from the European Front there were also Expeditionary squadrons = sent to Angola and Mozambique to protect those Portuguese Colonies.If = you're interested in those I can summarize the relevant chapter on the = book too. So as far as I make it from this book (my only source on this matter) = there were no Portuguese Aircraft involved but Portuguese Pilots flying = French a/c.=20 HTH Um abraco Pedro I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:57:17 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: aerial photography Message-ID: In a message dated 97-12-19 20:39:22 EST, you write: << New subject: Does anyone have a comment to make about WWI aerial photos. I found one in a second-hand Harleyford book. It's a shot of the western front taken possibly a few days before the Armistice. It's in very good shape, a bit sepia in color, but otherwise quite legible. It was taken by an Amer. observation unit. Matt Z >> There are quite a few interesting aerial shots from the war.Pictorial History of the German Army Air Service by Alex Imrie has a couple of good ones.One is of the Pyramids at Gizeh taken from a Rumpler of FA300. Since this mission involved only one airplane, the Germans released a version of this photo showing the plane that took the photos retouched into the shot.The other good one is of London taken July 7, 1917 from 14,000' by a Gotha. Rimell's World War One In The Air, No.9 in the Vintage Warbird series, is a truckload of aerial stuff. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:32:34 EST From: KarrArt To: wwi Subject: Re: Merry Xmas. Message-ID: <808fada0.349b3c56@aol.com> In a message dated 97-12-19 22:18:59 EST, you write: << Guys, Merry Xmas and a very happy new year. May 1998 be your better year ever and yet not half as good as those that will come therafter. It's great to be on this list. Um abraco Pedro >> Yep! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:35:38 -0000 From: "Sandy Adam" To: Subject: Re: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly Message-ID: <199712201153.LAA22212@beryl.sol.co.uk> > Let me see if I can give you some info as to the participation of = > Portuguese aircraft in WW1. > Pedro Now that's what this list is so good at! Many thanks Pedro - I for one had no knowledge atall of the Portuguese involvement, but now another little square has been filled in. Thanks again. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:50:55 -0000 From: "Sandy Adam" To: "AAA - WW1 Group" Subject: Kit of the year Message-ID: <199712201153.LAA22215@beryl.sol.co.uk> This has been a bumper year for new kits - most of which have been good to outstanding in quality. Lets have the votes then - what is your individual kit of the year? If I can start off: My own thoughts started with the Eduard Pfalz which would probably run away with it if it were not for that annoying separate fin - you will have to do quite a bit of filling to get a smoothed join like the real one. Next came the BM Camel - you certainly can't fault it for choices - almosty 2 kits in one - but that butter soft plastic is not so good to work with and BM wings always get a bit ragged at the edges. Same for the DH2. I can't remember if the Eduard Tripe was this year or not and it is so good - just misses the little upturn at the tailplane. I think the Alb DV's were last year - but everybody knows Alb DVs are flying bores anyway! No, my vote (FWIW) Tantaraaaa! Copper State Dornier D.I Unusual subject, beatuful crisp mouldings, lots of bits - duplicate resin and metal, comprehensive trannies, great colour scheme. Everybody will say "What is it?" followed by "Where can I get it?" Come on then. Lets hear them. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:34:43 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi Subject: Re: Albatros Conversion Message-ID: <349BBB63.6B17@worldnet.att.net> Joey Valenciano wrote: > > Why would it be necessary to reshape the cut out if you're making a new wing? > > BTW, wouldn't your providing these parts mean that they could also be used > to make a D.I? > It is my understanding that the D.II upper wing differs slightly from the D.I wing in that it has the parabolic cut out of the D.III - D.V series. Since we have hade the D.II wing, it seems to me that it would be necessary to round this cut out to a semi-circle to correctly model the D.I John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:43:31 -0500 From: John & Allison Cyganowski To: wwi Subject: Hope for Us Message-ID: <349BBD73.6018@worldnet.att.net> I was out doing the holiday shopping in one of those toy warehouses, when I decided to visit the model aisle. Heller has put together a 1/72 triple pack of airplane models complete with paints etc. Nothing remarkable here since other companies have done the same. However I could not believe my eyes when I got a look at the subject matter - a Skyraider, Hurricane and a Roland C.II! Of course they called it a C.11 on the box, but I was surprised and pleased to see a major manufacturer include this subject for mass market release. John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:04:21 +0100 From: Pedro Nuno Soares To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly Message-ID: <01BD0D50.2E271560@fei1-p15.telepac.pt> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD0D50.2E2EB680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Sandy Adam [SMTP:cbbs@almac.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 1997 1:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "Wider-Range" BuffsOnly > Let me see if I can give you some info as to the participation of = > Portuguese aircraft in WW1. > Pedro Now that's what this list is so good at! Many thanks Pedro - I for one had no knowledge atall of the Portuguese involvement, but now another little square has been filled in. Thanks again. Sandy Hi Sandy. Thanks a bunch for your kind words. I've learned a lot from all of you guys and it sure made me proud to contribute a little. 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The owner is saddened that we all just look at the box, see the Merlin name and turn up our noses. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:37:17 -0500 From: kevinkim@interlog.com (Kevin & Kimberley Barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: Kit of the year Message-ID: Sandy says: > >Copper State Dornier D.I Well, I say: Skybirds Halberstadt D.II - though this was probably released last year :-( Great subject, correct scale! Kevin Barrett. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:22:20 EST From: DavidL1217 To: wwi Subject: Re: Hope for Us Message-ID: It's the old Airfix classic. Heller and Airfix are actually one. I think thier headquarters is in the Chunnel. Actually, Heller, Airfix and Humbrol are all in the same family. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 813 *********************