WWI Digest 772 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter by "Rob" 2) Re: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter by TPTPUMPER@aol.com 3) The lozenge controversy, revisited by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 4) RE: Shane's Bible. by Joey Valenciano 5) Re: Udet's D.VII by Joey Valenciano 6) RE: Udet's D.VII by Joey Valenciano 7) Re: Udet's D-VII by Joey Valenciano 8) RE: The lozenge controversy, revisited by Shane Weier 9) Re: Back in the groove by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 10) Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited by "Paul R. Howard" 11) Re: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter by Joey Valenciano 12) Re: Udet's D.VII by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 13) RE: The lozenge controversy, revisited by Joey Valenciano 14) Re: Udet's D.VII by Joey Valenciano 15) Re: Shane's Bible. by "Tom Werner Hansen" 16) HELP!!! by "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nausic=E4a?=" 17) Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited by "Paul R. Howard" 18) Re: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter by DavidL1217@aol.com 19) Re: Hasagawa DVII by DavidL1217@aol.com 20) Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited by DavidL1217@aol.com 21) Re: last shot at CD-ROM by DavidL1217@aol.com 22) Library Bulletin: Datafiles received by mgoodwin@ricochet.net 23) RE: Udet's DVII by huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) 24) by JimAlley@aol.com 25) what lozenge controversy by Charles Hart 26) Udet's Decals by Charles Hart 27) Re: UDET'S STRIPES by B-A-L 28) Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited by B-A-L ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:12:45 +0000 From: "Rob" To: wwi Subject: RE: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter Message-ID: <199711220320.WAA23705@cliff.concentric.net> > >>Just why > >>would anyone want to spend A$70 (or thereabouts) for one butt ugly RE-8 > >>when for the same price he can have an Eduard Albatros, Pfalz and > >>Tripehound - and if you get a good price, enough change for a can of > >>paint? > > > >I agree here as well. Why can Eduard keep their prices down and BM and > >Aeroclub can't? > > > > I think that the answer here is simple, Eduard probably produces 2 or > 3 or 4 times the number of any one kit compared with Aeroclub and perhaps > twice as many as Blue Max. This only pure speculation, but I would imagine > that the economy of scale, as in scale of production numbers, is the > biggest factor. We should also remember that the Czech Republic was until recently an Eastern Bloc country with far lower labor costs than elsewhere. Rob Visit Chandelle, the Web Journal of Aviation History ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:17:47 -0500 (EST) From: TPTPUMPER@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter Message-ID: <971121231747_495192574@mrin47> In a message dated 97-11-21 21:53:37 EST, Joey wrote: > I agree here as well. Why can Eduard keep their prices down and BM and > Aeroclub can't? > Hi Joey! Did you notice the Eduard Albatros D.V kit price plummet after they started their new injection process? Initially it was $35US retail. Switch to new process, replace original metal engine with plastic, simplify the cockpit a bit, and the price is now $25US retail. I believe the new high pressure injection system is faster and allows them to make more kits with less effort, yielding a lower price. I believe the BM and Aeroclub kits are still done in a way similar to the original Eduard process, more labor intensive and more expensive. The limited issue size will also affect the price. Basic supply/demand economics. Have Fun!! IRA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:12 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <199711220604.AA05650@ednet1.orednet.org> While thumbing through my old Windsocks, I found that Volume 7, No. 6 has several color photos of the Munich Deutches Museum's Fokker D.VII (4408/17) including a couple of good cockpit interior photos. While 4408/17 has a lozenge fabric covered fuselage, NOT A TRACE of the lozenge pattern is discernable in the cockpit interior photos! What think you all? Is this just an inaccurate restoration or was all the past discussion about doing the interiors of lozenge fabric covered a/c with a "washed out" reverse lozenge pattern completely off base? It would sure make modeling easier if we didn't have to worry about reproducing the lozenge pattern on the interiors. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "All generalizations are dangerous, even this one." Alexandre Dumas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:17:06 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: Shane's Bible. Message-ID: <199711220617.OAA08470@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 07:10 PM 11/21/97 -0500, Shane wrote: >A great pity, because despite it being slightly dated in >some minor respects (it was written before the appearance of CyA which >is better for some of his techniques than the materials he suggests) >his methods are simple enough to show that scratchbuilding can be done >by the hamfisted (me) as well as the talented Alan Clarks of the world. But I'd like to talk to somebody who's done his spoked wheel technique successfully. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:17:11 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Udet's D.VII Message-ID: <199711220617.OAA08499@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 02:52 PM 11/21/97 -0500, Charles wrote: >I would suggest that any non-parallell character >on the stripes of Udet's short-lived D-VII was the result of the rush to >paint them and get on with business. My thoughts exactly, which makes the non-parallel theory even more possible. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:17:13 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: Udet's D.VII Message-ID: <199711220617.OAA08508@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> Hi Shane, > Think about looking down the centre of the freeway. The lanes >are parallel, but they still meet at a distant point. Go off to one side >of parallel lines and the nearer ones seem to converge faster than the >further ones, in other words, precisely the effect on the Udet photo But wouldn't this mean that the photographer didn't have the camera pointing diretly at Udet? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:17:14 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Udet's D-VII Message-ID: <199711220617.OAA08513@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 06:23 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: Hi Ira, >> > Don't forget the postwar Udet Flamingo sportplane. I have the= Profile, >> >if you would like a copy. >> =20 >> Pleeeeease! >> =20 > >Hi Joey! > > As Curly said, "Coit'n'y, Toots! Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!" Kindly supply me >your postal address, if you would. My address is: JOEY VALENCIANO 8-A Pook Aguinaldo U.P. Campus, Diliman, Quezon City 1101 PHILIPPINES BTW, I was at the Bob Banka Scale Model Research website. I viewed his catalog of SCALE 3=96VIEW LINE DRAWINGS and found these entry: UDET (BFW) U-12a 'Flamingo' 2 place biplane This is the aircraft right? Who is the manufacturer? Was the plane a "one off" deal? Or were there many others produced. Another entry in the catalog is: GALLAUDET PW-4 pursuit/fighter biplane I wonder if Udet was involved in any way with this one. I also don't know the nationality of this plane. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician,=20 joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist=20 tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:49:10 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: bshatzer@orednet.org Cc: "'wwi'" Subject: RE: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <199711220658.QAA25485@mimmon.mim.com.au> Bill, >While 4408/17 has a lozenge fabric covered fuselage, >NOT A TRACE of the lozenge pattern is discernable in >the cockpit interior photos! >What think you all? Is this just an inaccurate >restoration or was all the past discussion about >doing the interiors of lozenge fabric covered a/c >with a "washed out" reverse lozenge pattern completely >off base? I won't comment on the veracity of the restoration, however, I would like to point out that the Australian Society Of WW1 Aviation Historians has a panel of original 5 colour fabric which is displayed (under a protective case) wrong side outwards because the outside has a heavy coat of now very discoloured dope. And no, it isn't plain linen colour, it's reversed loz. Incidentally, the panel has impeccable credentials and was part of the original fabric removed from the airframe of the Canberra D.Va at the last restoration Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:52:08 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Re: Back in the groove Message-ID: <34768118.5B14@ricochet.net> Randy J. Ray wrote: > I hope to > be making the IPMS/Fremont meeting next month If you do, I'll see you there. I'll be the one with the Walfisch. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:01:39 -0600 From: "Paul R. Howard" To: Subject: Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <01bcf714$7b28a880$76868ece@default> Bill, Sorry to pass on the news, but the original 5 color I've held in my hands from the University of Dallas Collection definitely has the lozenge showing on the inside. Hope this helps. Cheers, Paul H. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Shatzer To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, November 22, 1997 12:09 AM Subject: The lozenge controversy, revisited > > >While thumbing through my old Windsocks, I found that >Volume 7, No. 6 has several color photos of the Munich >Deutches Museum's Fokker D.VII (4408/17) including >a couple of good cockpit interior photos. > >While 4408/17 has a lozenge fabric covered fuselage, >NOT A TRACE of the lozenge pattern is discernable in >the cockpit interior photos! > >What think you all? Is this just an inaccurate >restoration or was all the past discussion about >doing the interiors of lozenge fabric covered a/c >with a "washed out" reverse lozenge pattern completely >off base? > >It would sure make modeling easier if we didn't have >to worry about reproducing the lozenge pattern on >the interiors. > >Cheers and all, > > >-- > Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org > > "All generalizations are dangerous, even this one." > Alexandre Dumas > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:13:52 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter Message-ID: <199711220713.PAA15499@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 11:21 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >I believe the BM and Aeroclub kits are >still done in a way similar to the original Eduard process, more labor >intensive and more expensive. The limited issue size will also affect the >price. Basic supply/demand economics. But kudos to BM and Aeroclub (I like Aeroclub quality more) for coming out with better quality kits than the early Eduard offerings. And many thanks to Aeroclub for taking a risk and coming out with 2 seaters for their inital releases. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:04:59 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Udet's D.VII Message-ID: <199711220704.AA26392@ednet1.orednet.org> Joey Valenciano writes: >At 02:52 PM 11/21/97 -0500, Charles wrote: >>I would suggest that any non-parallell character >>on the stripes of Udet's short-lived D-VII was the result of the rush to >>paint them and get on with business. > >My thoughts exactly, which makes the non-parallel theory even more possible. I really don't think so. Take a look at the photo on page 20 of the JG 1 Special ("von Richthofen's Flying Circus") of Kirschstein's JG.1 Dr.I. The same phenomenum of the perspective causing parallel stripes to appear non-parallel is apparent in this photo. Or, take _any_ photo of a German aircraft taken from a similar position. Lay a ruler against the fore-and-aft portion of one Balkenkruz and trace out a line. Then, repeat the process with the Balkenkruz on the other wing. You will find that the two lines cross - every time. Which does not mean that the Germans were using asymetrical insignia - it just means that's the way perspective works. Honest, folks, the "non-parallel stripes" are an optical illusion. Cheers and all, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "All generalizations are dangerous, even this one." Alexandre Dumas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:30:07 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <199711220730.PAA17272@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 01:52 AM 11/22/97 -0500, Shane wrote: >Historians has a panel of original 5 colour fabric which is displayed >(under a protective case) wrong side outwards because the outside has a >heavy coat of now very discoloured dope. And no, it isn't plain linen >colour, it's reversed loz. Vivid or washed out colours? To all who got an overdose of Udet, my apologies. But I'm still pursuing whatever data I can on his planes and will post Udet queries from time to time. Got to squeeze out all the data I can on this since I'm trying to build a Udet collection. Bringing up the topic from time to time does a lot of good. Evidence my first learning about the "Tin Observer" early this year. Now I learn of a Hawk II and Flamingo. If we only could finally determine if the candy striper was peppermint or licorice..... You must admit that a lot of facts and very sound theories emerged from all our banter. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:31:47 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: Udet's D.VII Message-ID: <199711220831.QAA23656@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 02:12 AM 11/22/97 -0500, Bill wrote: >Take a look at the photo on page 20 of the JG 1 Special ("von >Richthofen's Flying Circus") of Kirschstein's JG.1 Dr.I. > >The same phenomenum of the perspective causing parallel stripes >to appear non-parallel is apparent in this photo. I'm now firmly implanted on the "parallel" side of this controversy. Shane, knowledgeable about photography also ascribes to the parellel theory, which strengthens this argument. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:09:48 +0100 From: "Tom Werner Hansen" To: Subject: Re: Shane's Bible. Message-ID: <199711221101.MAA24491@d1o211.telia.com> Shane. If there's no other way, I'll wait. Patience is all you need. Time you've never got enough of. Tom ---------- > From: Shane Weier > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: RE: Shane's Bible. > Date: 22. november 1997 01:11 > > Tom, > > >Anybody got any idea where I could lay my hands on a copy of > this Bible of > >Shane's? To buy or to copy? > > > Sadly Harry Woodmans seminal volume is long out of print. My > original is presently in the hands of another, so at the moment I can't > even offer to xerox a copy for you. OTOH if you can wait a little while > ? > > It may sometimes appear in second hand book lists, but I've > never seen it. A great pity, because despite it being slightly dated in > some minor respects (it was written before the appearance of CyA which > is better for some of his techniques than the materials he suggests) > his methods are simple enough to show that scratchbuilding can be done > by the hamfisted (me) as well as the talented Alan Clarks of the world. > > Regards ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:49:59 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nausic=E4a?=" To: Subject: HELP!!! Message-ID: <199711221216.NAA00860@www.tising.es> To anyone: I subscribe to this list, because i thank this list was a list for fire and fury, the civil war miniatures game, too. So i want to unsubscribe from the list, but i don't know how to do it. Anyone can help me? Thanks for all, and perdon for my poor english. >From Spain. Saludos. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:09:09 -0600 From: "Paul R. Howard" To: Subject: Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <01bcf760$f7307380$2b868ece@default> Joey, The colors are muted tones of the outside and the areas where the colors overlap tend to be much darker. The effect is almost like an outline of the lozenge shapes. Still even the outlines are muted in comparison to the exterior. Hope this helps. Cheers, Paul H -----Original Message----- From: Joey Valenciano To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, November 22, 1997 1:25 AM Subject: RE: The lozenge controversy, revisited >At 01:52 AM 11/22/97 -0500, Shane wrote: > >>Historians has a panel of original 5 colour fabric which is displayed >>(under a protective case) wrong side outwards because the outside has a >>heavy coat of now very discoloured dope. And no, it isn't plain linen >>colour, it's reversed loz. > >Vivid or washed out colours? > >To all who got an overdose of Udet, my apologies. But I'm still pursuing >whatever data I can on his planes and will post Udet queries from time to >time. Got to squeeze out all the data I can on this since I'm trying to >build a Udet collection. > >Bringing up the topic from time to time does a lot of good. Evidence my >first learning about the "Tin Observer" early this year. Now I learn of a >Hawk II and Flamingo. >If we only could finally determine if the candy striper was peppermint or >licorice..... > >You must admit that a lot of facts and very sound theories emerged from all >our banter. > > >********************************************************************* > >Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, >joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist >tel. (632) 921-26-75 >Metro-Manila, Philippines > > "The more you know, the more you don't know." > >********************************************************************* > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:27:01 -0500 (EST) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Aeroclub 1/48 Bristol Fighter Message-ID: <971122112701_1205200319@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Eduard prices also dropped when the engines went from metal to plastic. A 1/48 Mercedes from Aeroclube retails for $4. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:19 -0500 (EST) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Hasagawa DVII Message-ID: <971122112919_1182127424@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Hasagawa released a DML Spad a couple of years back with French markings. My guess is that they had the folks in Shanghai run off a few. I would really love to see Hasagawa use DML to subcontract some newer offerings. But, skip the 'flying razor.' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:32:21 -0500 (EST) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <971122113221_1805805889@mrin84.mail.aol.com> If the colours are a bit 'pinkish' they may have used fabric the Smithsonian ran for 'Stropp' . The lozenge may also be a modern silkscreen on impermiable (sp) fabric. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:09 -0500 (EST) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: last shot at CD-ROM Message-ID: <971122113409_-590972478@mrin53.mail.aol.com> My suggestion would be to talk with any old C&C types who are now putting out OTF. Perhaps OTF crowd would put this out as a publication. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:08:55 -0800 From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net To: wwi Subject: Library Bulletin: Datafiles received Message-ID: <34771FB7.4967@ricochet.net> Bob, Your Cl.II book arrived this week and I'll have it back in the mail next week. Steve, Thanks for your absentmindedness (in buying duplicates of these not inexpensive premier references) and generosity. The list library is enhanced with two more excellent references. The Albatros book should be of particular interest... Cheers, Riordan/List Librarian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:40:16 -0600 From: huggins@onramp.net (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: RE: Udet's DVII Message-ID: This may have been discussed in an earlier post which I missed and if so, please pardon the misuse of band width. Has anyone looked at the old Almark decal sheet for the plane. I did this bird a number of years ago. I can't find the sheet inst. sheet, but it was listed as overall red with Lozenge lower wings, and the diag. white stripes on both sides of the upper wing. The white stripes run across the ailerons which would indicate their being painted on the aircraft instead of separately like the Lozenge covered examples. There are also two white stripes running down the fuselage top to the horizontal stabalizer then turning out to the tips of elevator. The usual inscription is on the tail with the LO! on the fuselage sides. Upper wing and rudder crosses are black while the fuselage and lower wing crosses are white outlined. I think the decals were produced in both 1/48 and 1/72 scale. The Lozenge was on a separate sheet (4 & 5 color upper and lower sheets were available). The white wing stripes were done as a single decal which was to be positioned on the upper surface and then wrap around the leading edge and cover the lower surface. It took a lot of water and a med. size bag of profanity to get them in place without wrinkles. I did this scheme to see how much of the red under color would bleed through the white to produce pink stripes when dry. To my delight the next morning, the stripes were still a very crisp white. John Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:13:13 -0500 (EST) From: JimAlley@aol.com Message-ID: <199711221913.OAA09964@mrin46.mail.aol.com> the photo on page 20 of the JG 1 Special ("von >>Richthofen's Flying Circus") of Kirschstein's JG.1 Dr.I. >> >>The same phenomenum of the perspective causing parallel stripes >>to appear non-parallel is apparent in this photo. I am a photographer and I have taught perspective drawing in college. I checked page 20 of the JG1 Special out. The stripes are definitely parallel in that photo. I've seen other photos of other planes (sorry -- can't remember where) which had stripes which are just as definitely *not* parallel. Jim Alley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:01:05 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: what lozenge controversy Message-ID: >While thumbing through my old Windsocks, I found that >Volume 7, No. 6 has several color photos of the Munich >Deutches Museum's Fokker D.VII (4408/17) including >a couple of good cockpit interior photos. Isn't this serial # a little suspect for this airframe ? I seem to recall hearing or reading this somewhere ? >While 4408/17 has a lozenge fabric covered fuselage, >NOT A TRACE of the lozenge pattern is discernable in >the cockpit interior photos! > >What think you all? Is this just an inaccurate >restoration or was all the past discussion about >doing the interiors of lozenge fabric covered a/c >with a "washed out" reverse lozenge pattern completely >off base? If I recall correctly, the Deutsches Museum Fokker D-VII bears a painted lozenge pattern. If there is no trace of the pattern on the interior, my guess would be that the lozenge "paint" was applied after the machine was covered with restoration fabric and the fabric had received a coat or so of tautening dope. The dope would render the fabric somewhat impermeable to pigmented "paint" and hence the effect you see in the photo. Check the Windsock color cover with photos of the Knowlton Quebec Fokker D-VII. It still wears its original 4-color fabric. The dope is horribly yellowed, but the inside surface in the cockpit shows the lozenges and gives one a better idea of the original colors. >It would sure make modeling easier if we didn't have >to worry about reproducing the lozenge pattern on >the interiors. Check out Americal/Gryphon, they make 4-color lozenge decals that are reversed in both 1/72 and 1/48 for just this purpose. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:27:14 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Udet's Decals Message-ID: > > I think the decals were produced in both 1/48 and 1/72 scale. The Lozenge >was on a separate sheet (4 & 5 color upper and lower sheets were >available). The white wing stripes were done as a single decal which was >to be positioned on the upper surface and then wrap around the leading edge >and cover the lower surface. It took a lot of water and a med. size bag of >profanity to get them in place without wrinkles. I did this scheme to see >how much of the red under color would bleed through the white to produce >pink stripes when dry. To my delight the next morning, the stripes were >still a very crisp white. This sounds like a Blue Rider decal, I can't remember if it was for Udet though. I was struck by the notion of "papering" half the wing with clear decal film in order to apply something that would have been more easily (?) rendered with masking and painting. Either method would likely elicit equivalent quantities of profanity. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:38:48 +0000 From: B-A-L To: wwi Subject: Re: UDET'S STRIPES Message-ID: <347807B8.6608@eis.net.au> JimAlley@aol.com wrote: >=20 > the photo on page 20 of the JG 1 Special ("von > >>Richthofen's Flying Circus") of Kirschstein's JG.1 Dr.I. > >> > >>The same phenomenum of the perspective causing parallel stripes > >>to appear non-parallel is apparent in this photo. >=20 > I am a photographer and I have taught perspective drawing in college. I > checked page 20 of the JG1 Special out. The stripes are definitely > parallel in that photo. I've seen other photos of other planes (sorry -= - > can't remember where) which had stripes which are just as definitely > *not* parallel. >=20 > Jim Alley AND THERE'S THE RUB !!!! Well reading all this has been quite fascinating ( REALLY ! ) I just=20 wonder where the * parrallax error * ends and real attempts made at the=20 time ( if any ) at optical illusion begin - Perhaps I'm a fence-sitter=20 but I would not sell the old Hun short for a moment - They had some very=20 nifty ideas that were never publicised ( for obvious reasons ) On the=20 other other side of the argument one could say that until a " birdseye "=20 or " tail to nose shot " of Udet's machine's upper surfaces, the matter=20 remains in some doubt - Unless someone is prepared to do two wings=20 painted in the alternative styles contended for and then photograph them=20 from similar angles to the originals - Perhaps a macro lens would=20 achieve any necessary depth of scale field for the purpose ! If the " optical illusion argument " is supported by this exercise, it=20 would give some interesting insight to appreciating WHAT WOULD IN THIS=20 CASE BE , a hitherto misunderstood apppreciation of the degree of=20 sophistication that existed at the time of the methods of achieving and=20 the value of " colourful " camoflage. I'm almost tempted to to the=20 experiment myself but don't have the time - Well Joey, you started this=20 what do you reckon - worth the time - Not a challenge Joey only a=20 question !!!!! My 10=A2 worth=20 REGARDS DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:39:49 +0000 From: B-A-L To: wwi Subject: Re: The lozenge controversy, revisited Message-ID: <347807F5.5CC1@eis.net.au> Paul R. Howard wrote: > > Joey, > > The colors are muted tones of the outside and the areas where the colors overlap tend to be much darker. The effect is almost like an outline of the lozenge shapes. Still even the outlines are muted in comparison to the exterior. > > Hope this helps. > Cheers, > > Paul H In the most recent Windsock there's a colour ( color ? ) spread on the recent British rebuild of a DVII by the Shuttleworth collection - The lozenge is plainly seen in the cockpit area - to use Shane W's words - as " reverse lozenge " but Paul is correct too - there's a definite muting of the colours on the internal reverse side of the cloth/ fabric which might be replicated by a wash of a creamy clear over the top The enterprising modeller might consider ( and I haven't tried it myself YET ! ) a careful removal of the sides of the model about the cockpit area and replacing the opaque kit plastic with clear card - lightly sand the clear on the reverse/ inner side ( adding whatever internal detail is to be glued to these surfaces and lay the Lozenge decal or paint over the clear externally - wash the inner side with a *slightly* milky clear coat until the desired muting is achieved - Try it on a bit of spare clear and see what you think of the result !! REGARDS DAVID ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 772 *********************