WWI Digest 693 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Red Baron I Custom Missions by Andrew and Rebecca Hall 2) Re: stirring the waters.... by DavidL1217@aol.com 3) RE: stirring the waters.... by Shane Weier 4) stirring the waters.... -Reply by Peter Mitchell 5) Re: Red Baron I by "huggins@onramp.net" 6) Re: stirring the waters.... by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 7) Red Baron I -Reply by Peter Mitchell 8) Re: Red Baron I by Bob Pearson 9) Re: Red Baron I by Vincent Price 10) Re: Red Baron I by B-A-L 11) Re: Red Baron I by B-A-L 12) New In Action by Carlos Valdes 13) Re: New In Action by mgoodwin 14) Re: Red Baron I by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 15) Re: Now, Sandy . . . by Sandy Adam 16) RE: stirring the waters.... by Joey Valenciano 17) Re: stirring the waters.... by Joey Valenciano 18) Re: stirring the waters.... by mbittner@juno.com 19) Re: New In Action by mbittner@juno.com 20) Red Baron I & the Mac by "Gerald P. McOsker" 21) Re: stirring the waters.... by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 22) Off topic question - again by "Bittner, Matthew (KTR) ~U" 23) Re: stirring the waters.... by Charles Hart 24) RE: stirring the waters.... by Sandy Adam 25) Re: Off topic question - again by Don RInker 26) by fedders 27) Re: stirring the waters.... by TPTPUMPER@aol.com 28) Re: Off topic question - again by Alberto Rada 29) Re: stirring the waters.... by mbittner@juno.com 30) Fokker Turquoise by NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:39:35 -0700 From: Andrew and Rebecca Hall To: wwi Subject: Red Baron I Custom Missions Message-ID: <3431A9D7.27A3@phoenix.net> At the risk of getting further afield from the list, I'd be glad to exchange RBI custom missions (.CUS files) with others interested. My personal favorite is Dallas' famous fight -- don't often survivce that one, but it's never dull. ------------> Andy Hall ______________________________________________ Hank: "Bobby, why don't you want your Grandpa to come to your birthday party?" Bobby: "Because Mom said he was the Devil." Peggy: "I did not say he was the Devil. I said he was evil, E-V-I-L. How you get "devil" out of that is beyond me." -------------> King of the Hill Andrew and Rebecca Hall Galveston, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:07:19 -0400 (EDT) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <970930195143_406568064@emout04.mail.aol.com> Zeppelin Staaken R6 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:48:27 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: Joey > > >>This manufacturer has a tendency to opt for large (2-4 engines) or unusual >projects. > >>Any suggestions? Zeppelin Staaken of course. Span will work out to about 900mm (3 feet) and the weight of resin will make two strong men buckle at the knees ;-) >>Remember! This is just make believe! ;-) Yeah, yeah, but I can dream Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 10:59:08 +1000 From: Peter Mitchell To: wwi Subject: stirring the waters.... -Reply Message-ID: Why not just an L series Zeppelin? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:55:55 -0500 From: "huggins@onramp.net" To: wwi Subject: Re: Red Baron I Message-ID: >This is torture !!! > >I cann't stand to go on reading about all of these wonderful WW1 >Flight Sims for #@$#@@! DOS compatibles - Isn't there a version of >something decent available for the Mac ??!! > >FA 18 Hornet and Flying Nightmares maybe full of missles, guided bombs >and other techno fun, but I'd kill to get into an open cockpit and do >some REAL flying > >PLEASE, IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY, HAVE MERCY ON A MAC ADDICT !! > DAVID, Red Baron was/is available for those of us who know a good computer. It has not been upgraded for power MAC use, but if you still have a 860x0 box, v1 will run very well. John Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:59:57 -0500 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <19971001020018.AAA23438@default> Hmmmmm.... Large OR unusual.... large: Caudron G series Unusual: Morane Saulnier A I Any one of the Lohner D I prototypes Bristol M series Albatros D XI Those should be odd enough. ---------- > From: Joey Valenciano > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: stirring the waters.... > Date: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 9:35 AM > > > Hello mga kaibigan (friends), > > A hypothetical question.... > > Suppose that very new resin manufacturer is looking for a WWI project as a > first project. > > Scale = 1/48 > > This manufacturer has a tendency to opt for large (2-4 engines) or unusual > projects. > > Any suggestions? > > Remember! This is just make believe! ;-) > > > > > ********************************************************************* > > Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, > joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist > tel. (632) 921-26-75 > Metro-Manila, Philippines > > "The more you know, the more you don't know." > > ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 12:07:15 +1000 From: Peter Mitchell To: wwi Subject: Red Baron I -Reply Message-ID: > I know about the Richthofen brothers and their unsavory tactics >because I fought them both. I played on the highest realism level >(except midair collisions) and never backed up the game, starting over >from the beginning whenever I died. No, no, no... When you're out numbered like that, take them on with a front-on attack (sounds stupid I know). Concentrate your fire on one individual with a good accurate burst, don't lose your nerve. .LvR is the best target if you can get him and then dive uder them and their fire. (it's imperitive that you get one of them or at least badly damage one of them doing this). pull out of the dive as soon as you pass them and bank around to face them again. You wil see that they have broken up and you should be able to pick off another before they can re-group. Works everytime (even on the difficult level) and I think it's a fault with the AI of the game that you can get away with this. >However, when being the Germans, I never could survive long after the >introduction of the SE5a, you CAN'T run and you can't hide either. > I'd always wind up playing a second rate Voss imitation with four or >sometimes even eight SE5a's zooming around me and I would die. >Thus, I never got challenged by the higher-ranking Allied aces. I always found that the german machines can pretty much hold thier own against the SE5a's and any other ally. You're computer opponents in this game don't have much brains and are far too tenacious for their own good. For some of those sticky balloon attacks it often helps to see if you bait the patrolling fighters back over your lines and AA batteries. Then turn on 'em !!!! :-) >As an Allied fighter pilot, though, I would get my trusty SPAD and I >could always run away, if nothing else! The camel was my favourite allied mount..... care is need because it stalls very easily. Something that is near impossible to recover from 8-O The Fokker DVII and SSW DIII are good fun in the German Imperial Airservice. I've played all the missions and ended the war as both a German and British (Australia serving with the RFC) ace, with over 100 victories. Including accounting for Nungesser (he fell to my guns, not into the Atlantic), Mannock, Voss and LvR, numerous balloons and a zeppelin. This new RB game as well as Flying Corps looks interesting. RB 1 has a few limitations. you can't strafe (although I once landed next to a train and shot it up for fun) and it would be great if you could connect with another computer and have a real live opponent.... like TIE fighter (or shouldn't I mention those things). Pete. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:22:38 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Red Baron I Message-ID: <02223854356250@KAIEN.COM> John Huggins wrote, Red Baron was/is available for those of us who know a good computer. It > has not been upgraded for power MAC use, but if you still have a 860x0 box, > v1 will run very well. > John Okay, but what about those of us who are otherwise fortunate enough to have a Power Mac? Are there any WW1 sims out there that will run on a Power Mac? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 12:12:38 +1000 From: Vincent Price To: wwi Subject: Re: Red Baron I Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971001121238.00750130@mailhost.world.net> Had the same problem until I realised that crash landing very quickly was a great way of escaping! Vincent At 05:46 30/09/97 -0400, you wrote: > I know about the Richthofen brothers and their unsavory tactics because >I fought them both. I played on the highest realism level (except midair >collisions) and never backed up the game, starting over from the beginning >whenever I died. However, when being the Germans, I never could survive long >after the introduction of the SE5a, you CAN'T run and you can't hide either. > I'd always wind up playing a second rate Voss imitation with four or >sometimes even eight SE5a's zooming around me and I would die. Thus, I never >got challenged by the higher-ranking Allied aces. > As an Allied fighter pilot, though, I would get my trusty SPAD and I >could always run away, if nothing else! > >Yours, >James D. Gray > >nr. The 900 Days >nl. Nick at Night > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:49:30 +0000 From: B-A-L To: wwi Subject: Re: Red Baron I Message-ID: <343254EA.B7A@eis.net.au> Bob, Your'e out of the closet too !!! Regretably one seems to be flat out like a lizard drinking to get any WW1 Mac Flight Sim, I perserved with Fok Dr1 for about three goes, but in black and white the best fun I had with it was dumping it off the hard drive !! Do you know any sites one can down load a Mac copy of anything WW1 Flight ??? Kind Regards David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:52:04 +0000 From: B-A-L To: wwi Subject: Re: Red Baron I Message-ID: <34325584.3960@eis.net.au> John OK, I'm primative and not all blacked up with a fancy new Power Mac - Can you help with a site address for down-load of V. 1 I've gotr to give this a go !! Kind Regards David ( R.L. LAWS ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:11:32 -0400 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: New In Action Message-ID: <34310894.7EF5@conted.gatech.edu> The current FSM has an ad for the next In Action title: it'll be on Nieuport fighters. Coming soon after the D.VII, these two represent a mini WWI wave. Now, we all know that In Actions should not be seen as the ultimate guide to any type, but let's hope that this one is better than its German predecessor. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:12:25 -0700 From: mgoodwin To: wwi Subject: Re: New In Action Message-ID: <3431CDA9.272@ricochet.net> Carlos Valdes wrote: > > The current FSM has an ad for the next In Action title: it'll be on > Nieuport fighters. Coming soon after the D.VII, these two represent a > mini WWI wave. Now, we all know that In Actions should not be seen as > the ultimate guide to any type, but let's hope that this one is better > than its German predecessor. > Carlos I submit that any new WWI aviation title in a mainstream series such as Squadron's is good news, both in terms of raising public awareness and as an inexpensive source of reference photos. So, they're frequently mislabled-most of us can tell when this is the case. Besides, whaddaya want for 8 bucks? Anyone care to give accuracy ratings on 1-10 scale of oop & current Squadron WWI titles? Riordan nb: Smer DH2 Modelist Morane 'G'/Pfalz E.I conversion ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:01:23 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Red Baron I Message-ID: <199710010501.AA25937@ednet1.orednet.org> > >This is torture !!! > >I cann't stand to go on reading about all of these wonderful WW1 >Flight Sims for #@$#@@! DOS compatibles - Isn't there a version of >something decent available for the Mac ??!! > >FA 18 Hornet and Flying Nightmares maybe full of missles, guided bombs >and other techno fun, but I'd kill to get into an open cockpit and do >some REAL flying > >PLEASE, IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY, HAVE MERCY ON A MAC ADDICT !! Jest heard about a mac utility on the radio this eve called "virtual PC" which is supposed to instantly turn your mac into a Windows 3.1/Windows95 machine. They were saying that with this program, your mac will run _all_ PC programs, games included. Ya might look around for it if yer bound and determined to by flying Red Baron on yer Mac. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "All generalizations are dangerous, even this one." Alexandre Dumas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:40:47 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Now, Sandy . . . Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Carlos Valdes wrote: > Now, Sandy, let's not open up this Pandora's box again: we don't > want to have to start talking about the work of imaginatve fiction that's > the RFC/RAF victories list . . . ;-) > Carlos > You're no fun! Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:47:58 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: RE: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <199710010947.RAA16993@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 08:54 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >Joey >> >>>This manufacturer has a tendency to opt for large (2-4 engines) or unusual >>projects. >> >>>Any suggestions? > >Zeppelin Staaken of course. Span will work out to about 900mm (3 feet) >and the weight of resin will make two strong men buckle at the knees ;-) Shane, Shane, Shane, I knew you'd suggest a Staaken. How about... Nieuport Tripe Caproni Ca.3/33/4!!!! (Ca.4, another Tripe!) Albatros J.I/II BTW, anyone inspect Lone Star's Junkers J.I firsthand? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:48:08 +0800 From: Joey Valenciano To: wwi Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <199710010948.RAA17006@fiesta.philonline.com.ph> At 10:04 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hmmmmm.... >Large OR unusual.... > >large: Caudron G series Nice choice >Unusual: Morane Saulnier A I Unusual? Haven't come across this one, what makes it look unusual? > Albatros D XI Nice one too! ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:17:05 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <19971001.052041.13854.2.mbittner@juno.com> On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:36:06 -0400 Joey Valenciano writes: > Scale = 1/48 Now that's a huge problem. > This manufacturer has a tendency to opt for large (2-4 engines) > or unusual projects. *If* I was to build in 1/48th, I would like to see a Caudron G.4, or maybe even a Caproni. That's a HUGE if, though. ;-) Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:20:40 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: New In Action Message-ID: <19971001.052041.13854.3.mbittner@juno.com> On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:56:14 -0400 Carlos Valdes writes: >The current FSM has an ad for the next In Action title: it'll be on >Nieuport fighters. Coming soon after the D.VII, these two represent a >mini WWI wave. Now, we all know that In Actions should not be seen as >the ultimate guide to any type, but let's hope that this one is better >than its German predecessor. Oh, that's a good one. You know what it means, though. The "general masses" will see the In Action, and take it as "word from god". I've seen this before. "It's an In Action, so it must be right." I seriously ache for what's going to happen when this comes out. For starters, take a close look at the Nie.28 on the cover. Something strike you wierd about the nose? Yep, it's wrong. So, that means that modelers are going to start "correcting" their Revell noses, just because the In Action says it's wrong. It has happened, you know. Plus, how can 24+ pages cover the *entire* run of Nieuport fighters? Are they going to really show all the possiblities of how Nieuport 11 and Nieuport 16's really differed? Sorry, but cynacism is high on this one. The Datafile Specials weren't able to cover everything, and they're pretty complete. Yikes. Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:49:47 -0500 From: "Gerald P. McOsker" To: wwi Subject: Red Baron I & the Mac Message-ID: >John Huggins wrote, > > Red Baron was/is available for those of us who know a good computer. It >> has not been upgraded for power MAC use, but if you still have a 860x0 >box, >> v1 will run very well. >> John I had RB I running on a 68020 [LCII?] and it was a thing of beauty [and almost caused a divorce as I became quite addicted] WHen I upgraded to the LCIII [68030] it died- you couldn't control it. Sierra just loftily said that there wasn't enough Mac demand to upgrade. A pox on the swine. Anyway- I bought a cheap PC clone [DOS bucket running under a Win 95 veneer] just so I can play RBII etc. I've been off rhe list for technical reasons the last few days so I gather from the chatter that RBII is out- nicht wahr? Gerry- Cricket season is over =- its back to the plastic, resin- bronze! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:16:48 -0500 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <19971001121702.AAA9325@default> The MS A I? I've never seen so much bracing under the wing of any aircraft. Not to mention that I've never seen the type modeled in anything but RC scales. ---------- > From: Joey Valenciano > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... > Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 4:53 AM > > At 10:04 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Hmmmmm.... > >Large OR unusual.... > > > >large: Caudron G series > > Nice choice > > >Unusual: Morane Saulnier A I > > Unusual? Haven't come across this one, what makes it look unusual? > > > Albatros D XI > > Nice one too! > > > > ********************************************************************* > > Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, > joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist > tel. (632) 921-26-75 > Metro-Manila, Philippines > > "The more you know, the more you don't know." > > ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:41:12 -0500 From: "Bittner, Matthew (KTR) ~U" To: "'WW1 Modelers'" Subject: Off topic question - again Message-ID: Gee, it seams :-) I have more off topics lately. Anyway, does anybody subscribe to - or get on a regular basis - the periodical _Wings of Fame_? I'm looking for the latest issue. There's an article I need photocopied. Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:58:59 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: >The MS A I? I've never seen so much bracing under the wing of any >aircraft. Not to mention that I've never seen the type modeled in anything >but RC scales. The Morane Saulnier AI was the subject of a Formaplane vac kit in 1/72 once upon a time. There may be a resin of this out there in the same scale too. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu >---------- >> From: Joey Valenciano >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... >> Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 4:53 AM >> >> At 10:04 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >Hmmmmm.... >> >Large OR unusual.... >> > >> >large: Caudron G series >> >> Nice choice >> >> >Unusual: Morane Saulnier A I >> >> Unusual? Haven't come across this one, what makes it look unusual? >> >> > Albatros D XI >> >> Nice one too! >> >> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> >> Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, >> joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist >> tel. (632) 921-26-75 >> Metro-Manila, Philippines >> >> "The more you know, the more you don't know." >> >> ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:56 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Joey Valenciano wrote: > This manufacturer has a tendency to opt for large (2-4 engines) or unusual > projects. Don't really fancy too many 2-4 engine jobs in 1/48 - with an Aurora Gotha and DH-10 in the glass case (and another four of each unbuilt as well as the Sierra AEG G.IV) I don't know where I'd put a Caproni. Oh who's kidding - I'd find a place for it somewhere! Realistically though we are desperately short of a few ESSENTIAL two seaters in 1/48 including: Brisfit LVG C type Rumpler C type (later than Sierra C.I) DH 4/4a (OK Aurora/Glencoe soon hopefully) DH 9 Fe2d BE2e AW FK8 Alb C-type (later than Sierra) And Please, please, please a good LTM quality SE5a - I'm fed up seeing good new models (Blue Max, Glencoe, Eduard) of crappy Pfalz Scouts whilst arguably the best aeroplane in the whole conflict awaits a quality kit. Copper State have put it on their futures list - so lets hope. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 12:38:38 -0400 From: Don RInker To: wwi Subject: Re: Off topic question - again Message-ID: <34327C8E.4153@fast.net> Bittner, Matthew (KTR) ~U wrote: > > Gee, it seams :-) I have more off topics lately. > > Anyway, does anybody subscribe to - or get on a regular basis - the > periodical _Wings of Fame_? I'm looking for the latest issue. There's > an article I need photocopied. > > Matt Bittner I subscribe... What do you need? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:46:57 -0500 (CDT) From: fedders To: models Message-ID: The BE2e has been mentioned as an airplane that needs kitting. You can make one from existing 1/48 kits. The fuselage is quite close to the BE2c which is made (yes, in vac) by Falcon. The wings are those of the RE8 (not vac). peter fedders ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:38:06 -0400 (EDT) From: TPTPUMPER@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <971001143710_-2066415895@emout07.mail.aol.com> Hi Guys! FWIW, I have a MS A.1 in 1/72 by--ulp!--Merlin! It was in a double kit with the Albatros D.IV, and I wanted the D.IV. Anyone want the MS A.1? Make an offer! Have Fun!! IRA Campbell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:27:45 -0400 From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Re: Off topic question - again Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971001172745.007193c4@pop.true.net> Hi Matt Please let me know what you need SALUDOS ALBERTO At 10:47 AM 01-10-97 -0400, you wrote: >Gee, it seams :-) I have more off topics lately. > >Anyway, does anybody subscribe to - or get on a regular basis - the >periodical _Wings of Fame_? I'm looking for the latest issue. There's >an article I need photocopied. > > >Matt Bittner > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:02:13 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: stirring the waters.... Message-ID: <19971001.180319.13342.3.mbittner@juno.com> On Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:20:45 -0400 phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) writes: >The MS A I? I've never seen so much bracing under the wing of any >aircraft. Not to mention that I've never seen the type modeled in >anything but RC scales. I believe the one French resin manufacturer makes one. Why can't I remember the name? Matt Bittner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:05:39, -0500 From: NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) To: wwi Subject: Fokker Turquoise Message-ID: <199710012305.TAB18092@mime4.prodigy.com> -- [ From: Kenneth Hagerup * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- With several Revell Dr.1s on the bench just now, I've been trying to find a match for the turquoise undersurfaces, or at least something that approaches the color in the Windsock publications. Using the Testors enamels in the 1/4 oz. bottles, 50% 1162 Sky Blue and 50% 1164 OD Green yields a color which looks very close. Ken -- npwe28a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 693 *********************