WWI Digest 661 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Methuen Colours - What a response by DavidL1217@aol.com 2) Re: plea for help by Charles Hart 3) Rib and Longeron tapes question by The Shannons 4) Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question by Charles Hart 5) Non-Copyright WWI A/C Lineart? by Andrew and Rebecca Hall 6) Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question by Bob Pearson 7) Re: Non-Copyright WWI A/C Lineart? by Bob Pearson 8) RE: plea for help by Shane Weier 9) OT: Princess Diana death by "Alexandre " 10) Re: OT: Princess Diana death by Bill Bacon 11) Re: plea for help by B-A-L 12) Re: natural linen varished by B-A-L 13) Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 14) RE: Rib and Longeron tapes question by Shane Weier 15) Jasta 5 by Suvoroff@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Methuen Colours - What a response Message-ID: <970831120902_858404066@emout14.mail.aol.com> What do we use to open this? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:37:05 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: plea for help Message-ID: >Sandy wrote: > >>Seriously! though, I remember painting the framework of my Dr1 crash in >>aluminium/steel colours in the belief that these were unpainted - I >>haven't got access at the moment to any Dr1 refs to check back why I did I >>this but off the top of my head it seems reasonable. >> >>Part of the reason for lozenge fabric was to keep down weight (of paint) >>and surely nowhere would less need paint than interior framework. Given >>that by this time, manufacturers must have foreseen a service life for >>their products of no more than a year - why paint unnecessary bits? Bill replied: > >I'd be kind of sceptical of the "bare metal theory" - untreated steel, >especially 1917-era untreated steel tends to rust rather quickly in >an environment with any sort of moisture in it - a description which >the interior of just about any WW1 aircraft would fit (remember that >moisture problems in the interior of the Dr.I WING were a contributing >factor to the wing failure on the initial batch of triplanes. And >the wing is certainly more weather- and water-tight than is the >fuselage interior.) > >While admittedly, the rusting would probably not be sufficient to >seriously compromise the structural integrity of the fuselage during >the expected life of the aircraft, a rust coated fuselage frame would >make inspection difficult, if not impossible, and the rust itself >could interact adversely with the fabric, the control cables and >other "fiddley-bits" sufficiently that I don't think aircraft >manufacturers could seriously contemplate allowing the interior >framework to just accummulate rust. Rust is not weight-free either - >it wouldn't take that much rust to equal or exceed the weight of >a good coat of primer. > >Admitted, good photos of "naked" Dr.I's are not that easy to come >by. Yet, the photos of MvR's downed 425/17 seem to show an >interior fuselage structure which is inconsistent with bare metal. >And, other Fokker aircraft for which we do have decent "unclothed" >photos like the D.VII and the E.III all seem to show a primered >(or at least treated) fuselage framework. > >So, my bet is that bare metal is not correct and that some sort of >primer was applied to the metal. And, as I can't imagine any >good purpose for having two primers, I'm guessing that the interior >and exterior primers would have been identical. FWIW, color photos of the Fokker E-III in the Science Museum in the UK show the tubing of the fuselage to be painted a greyish green colo(u)r, not too dissimilar to that found on Albatros cowling panels. Apart from having its fabric removed, prop exchanged and perhaps an engine swop as well, this Fokker is largely unchanged since the time of its capture in 1916. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:45:33 -0500 From: The Shannons To: wwi Subject: Rib and Longeron tapes question Message-ID: <3409BBCD.154A@ix.netcom.com> I'm curious about a couple of aspects of early war rib and longeron tape colors. I'm completing the Eduard Morane-Saulnier type L kit, and I'm at the point where I am getting ready to paint these on the wing edges and fuselage "corners". Eduard shows them as a dark brown, akin to the 'chocolat' that was used as a second world unpleasantness camouflage color. Would they be rose? I don't have any references specific to Moranes, and the B&W pictures just indicate that they photograph dark, so I'm assuming they were not typically blue. I have also seen refernces for Nieuport 10 and 11 that state that the blue or rose tapes were used on those not much later. Does anyone have a favorite paint mixture for the rib tape colors? The blue ones seem very close to 35102-109 'true blues', in much of the decal sheets -- but I haven't found a mix that really matches the tones of the pink or rose colors. Another question. I have a B&W picture of the War Memorial painting of Lt. Warneford's M-S L, I do not have any other pictures that are definitely identified as his aircraft. In the B&W, the wing roundels look different from the fuselage -- Eduard provides these as French order roundels (with British color proportions) and this could be true from the info I have. The only rationalization I have is that the RN initially used a red-ringed white circle as an UNDERWING marking -- which could have just been modified by having the blue added in the center. Finally, I will be working on the M-S type N soon, and I was wondering about the fabric color. It was a little early for the Jaune Claire aluminized dope, from my references, but reports I have seen always talked about them having a silvery-grey appearance as opposed to the straight CDL yellow-beiges range. Can anyone give me any quick help on these questions? Just to note, the budget is very tight at the moment, and I kinda want to finish this one so I can get to the others sitting in the backlog -- if people could just comment, I would appreciate it. I'd have to wait a bit before I could purchase any new references. Thanks, people. I appreciate the reading I get from this group, I have printed off more letters for my files than with anything else I do on the 'Net. -- This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon at Shingend@ix.netcom.com History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:13:41 -0700 From: Charles Hart To: wwi Subject: Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question Message-ID: Mark and/or Mary Shannon writes: >I'm curious about a couple of aspects of early war rib and longeron tape >colors. I'm completing the Eduard Morane-Saulnier type L kit, and I'm >at the point where I am getting ready to paint these on the wing edges >and fuselage "corners". > >Eduard shows them as a dark brown, akin to the 'chocolat' that was used >as a second world unpleasantness camouflage color. Would they be rose? >I don't have any references specific to Moranes, and the B&W pictures >just indicate that they photograph dark, so I'm assuming they were not >typically blue. > >I have also seen refernces for Nieuport 10 and 11 that state that the >blue or rose tapes were used on those not much later. Personally, I've not seen any reference to the specific color of French rib tapes, particularly on Nieuports. Most Nieuport finishes seem to have colors applied over the rib tapes. A number of the Morane Saulnier monoplanes actually have strips of wood nailed to the outside of the wing to secure the wing fabric to the ribs. Without book in hand (its 7 miles from this site) I'll not comment further as to specific models. By the time I get back to this machine, you should have a flurry of answers to this. >Another question. I have a B&W picture of the War Memorial painting of >Lt. Warneford's M-S L, I do not have any other pictures that are >definitely identified as his aircraft. In the B&W, the wing roundels >look different from the fuselage -- Eduard provides these as French >order roundels (with British color proportions) and this could be true >from the info I have. The only rationalization I have is that the RN >initially used a red-ringed white circle as an UNDERWING marking -- >which could have just been modified by having the blue added in the >center. You are correct about British national insignia starting out as red circles with a white filling, I think they were used on upper surfaces also. >Finally, I will be working on the M-S type N soon, and I was wondering >about the fabric color. It was a little early for the Jaune Claire >aluminized dope, from my references, but reports I have seen always >talked about them having a silvery-grey appearance as opposed to the >straight CDL yellow-beiges range. > I agree, the Type N predated aluminized dope. I'm not sure that any of them were silver doped. Most photos I have seen are compatible with the interpretation of CDL finishes for these machines. My US$ 0.02 worth. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:57:16 -0700 From: Andrew and Rebecca Hall To: wwi Subject: Non-Copyright WWI A/C Lineart? Message-ID: <3409E8BC.2464@phoenix.net> Dear All: I'm working on a project that could use some illustrations. I'd like to use general arrangement drawings of WWI aircraft, particularly fighters. The images need not be particularly detailed and, for that matter (shudder), need not by precisely accurate -- they're mainly for atmosphere and to introduce the types. What *is* important is that they not be copyrighted. I can either use (1) scalable line art (prefered), (2) high-res digital line art (B&W) or (3) clean, sharp hard copy artwork I can scan (least prefered). Any ideas? ----------> Andy Hall __________________________________________________________________ Andrew and Rebecca Hall Galveston, Texas tigone@phoenix.net __________________________________________________________________ "It's 'Faux-fu' -- a tofu substitute for the tofu-intolerant" -------- King of the Hill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:58:48 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question Message-ID: <20584840523070@KAIEN.COM> Subject: Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question Mark Shannon wrote; > Another question. I have a B&W picture of the War Memorial painting of > Lt. Warneford's M-S L, I do not have any other pictures that are > definitely identified as his aircraft. In the B&W, the wing roundels > look different from the fuselage -- Eduard provides these as French > order roundels (with British color proportions) and this could be true > from the info I have. The only rationalization I have is that the RN > initially used a red-ringed white circle as an UNDERWING marking -- > which could have just been modified by having the blue added in the > center. --------- Mark, One of the profiles I painted for FMP's forthcoming book on the VCs in WW1 was this aircraft. The roundels are indeed 'French' on the wings. The markings were left in their original French and just had the British fuselage roundel and RNAS serial added - note the French markings still on the rudder. However your idea on RNAS roundels is also correct - for a slighlty later period as correspondence with Alex Revell on just this point says; 'It was November 1 1915 before Admiralty instructions went out to bring national markings in line with the RFC; the RNAS red ring marking was discontinued and the standard roundel of blue, white and red in diameter proportions of 5:3:1 was introduced. There were several anomolies in the instructions. Constructors were to apply the new roundels forthwith, but in units a small blue centre could be added to the white centre of the red wing marking on the wings as a temporary expedient. This in effect gave these British naval aircraft French roundels' Regards Bob Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:03:35 -0700 From: Bob Pearson To: WW1 Mailing list Subject: Re: Non-Copyright WWI A/C Lineart? Message-ID: <21033511723075@KAIEN.COM> Andy, Prior to my profiles being published I contacted Ray Rimell to see if I was able to use the GA drawings in Windsock and the Datafiles. His reply was "As to our copyright warning - yes it does apply to general arrangement drawings! If these are used as a reference on which original artwork is based then there is no problem so long as some form of acknowledgement is made. What we will not allow is direct reproduction or copying of our plans and artwork, i.e. photocopying our drawings and reproducing as one kit manufacturer did recently - to his great cost I might add!" So you should be able to use their drawings as a basis for your simulations, just don't copy them directly. If you are looking for a particluar aircraft type let me know as I have a large binder full of various GAs Regards Bob Pearson ---------- > From: Andrew and Rebecca Hall > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Non-Copyright WWI A/C Lineart? > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:04:02 -0400 > > Dear All: > > I'm working on a project that could use some illustrations. I'd like to use > general arrangement drawings of WWI aircraft, particularly fighters. The > images need not be particularly detailed and, for that matter (shudder), need > not by precisely accurate -- they're mainly for atmosphere and to introduce > the types. What *is* important is that they not be copyrighted. > > I can either use (1) scalable line art (prefered), (2) high-res digital line > art (B&W) or (3) clean, sharp hard copy artwork I can scan (least prefered). > > Any ideas? > > ----------> Andy Hall > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Andrew and Rebecca Hall > Galveston, Texas > tigone@phoenix.net > __________________________________________________________________ > "It's 'Faux-fu' -- a tofu substitute for the tofu-intolerant" > -------- King of the Hill > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:15:46 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: plea for help Message-ID: >Rob says: > >> Irrelevant in the case of the Dr.I >> >> It would never have flown unless the entire fabric area was doped with >> *something*, and we can reasonably assume they didn't paint it with a >> can of "striped paint", so it had to be doped clear (and completely) >> first. Which returns me to the point - no soak through of the Olive >> green >>Shane > >Please READ your mail. I referred only to the part re PC10. Yes, I read it alright Rob. And you were entirely right. But the original question was about the Dr.I and my reply was simply seeking for an example of multiple coating. Your answer on the other hand (in this case) is simply rude. Shane > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:26:40 -0300 From: "Alexandre " To: Subject: OT: Princess Diana death Message-ID: <199708312328.XAA26899@srv1-cas.cas.nutecnet.com.br> Hi all (specially our British and Commonwealth fellows), My deepest condolences for this unbelievable death. She was a light in the dark, with her aid, charities and sympathy. My pray will go to her children who will have to grow up earlier without a mother. She was special for us here in Brazil....We used to see her journeys (sometimes a dangerous one) around the world....This tragedy remember our lost in 1994 (Ayrton Senna) who was an example of honesty and good will. I'm sure that the dark side of the media will learn this hard lesson.... Let her rest in peace.....Peace for UK and our countries as well. Best regards, Alexandre - atcampos@nutecnet.com.br - Brazil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:38:22 -0500 From: Bill Bacon To: wwi Subject: Re: OT: Princess Diana death Message-ID: <340A0E7E.F7C404B7@netjava.net> Alexandre, Well said. She will be missed by all. A bright light in an increasingly darkening world. May she serve as a role model to others. Her immortality will be in the world's fond memories. Cheers, Bill B. Alexandre wrote: > Hi all (specially our British and Commonwealth fellows), > > My deepest condolences for this unbelievable death. She was a light > in > the dark, with her aid, charities and sympathy. My pray will go to her > > children who will have to grow up earlier without a mother. > She was special for us here in Brazil....We used to see her journeys > > (sometimes a dangerous one) around the world....This tragedy remember > our > lost in 1994 (Ayrton Senna) who was an example of honesty and good > will. > I'm sure that the dark side of the media will learn this hard > lesson.... > > > Let her rest in peace.....Peace for UK and our countries as well. > > Best regards, > > Alexandre - atcampos@nutecnet.com.br - Brazil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 12:06:01 +1000 From: B-A-L To: wwi Subject: Re: plea for help Message-ID: <340A2309.7C9B@eis.net.au> Lateral thinking !! One for the colour Police to chew on . Well done ! David R.L. Laws ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 12:09:48 +1000 From: B-A-L To: wwi Subject: Re: natural linen varished Message-ID: <340A23EC.2348@eis.net.au> Tim Mea Culpa - I mislead you - It's July 1997 ! Regards DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:28:23 -0400 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Rib and Longeron tapes question Message-ID: <199709010428.AAA17040@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 02:49 PM 8/31/97 -0400, The Shannons wrote: >I >Finally, I will be working on the M-S type N soon, and I was wondering >about the fabric color. It was a little early for the Jaune Claire >aluminized dope, from my references, but reports I have seen always >talked about them having a silvery-grey appearance as opposed to the >straight CDL yellow-beiges range. Mark The datafile lists the colors for the N as "clear-dope and varnish over fabric covered areas with metal areas in gloss black." The castor oi9l used as a lubricant caused the black paint to disappear, leaving a rather irregular look to it. The color notations are : 4A3/FS17855 for CDL. HTH Mik Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:49:53 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Rib and Longeron tapes question Message-ID: Hello Mark: > >I'm curious about a couple of aspects of early war rib and longeron tape >>colors. I'm completing the Eduard Morane-Saulnier type L kit, and I'm >>at the point where I am getting ready to paint these on the wing edges >and fuselage "corners". A friend here has just built this kit absolutely superbly. He used "black" tapes (that is, he made a warm, very dark grey by mixing black and dark brown paint and sprayed nad cut his own decal) He also represented the black wooden cap strips on the ribs, using pencil lines. And for good measure produced the best "paint stripped from metal cowl" look I ever saw. All to produce the model OoB for our upcoming show, and undoubtedly to wup my backside. FWIW I think he's right using black, but who's to *know* Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:16:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Suvoroff@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Jasta 5 Message-ID: <970901061611_706960713@emout17.mail.aol.com> Hello, I was wondering if one of you guys could help me. I am working on the Eduard Albatros D.V and I am thinking well in advance of what I will need to finish it. Specifically, decals. I really like the Jasta 5 green and red tails, but there are far too many "blitzes" out there. Are there decals available for other Jasta 5 aircraft? Also, the green of the tail is interpreted as a dull camouflage green by Eduard, but I have seen a wide variety of other interpretations, mostly of a brighter green. Any thoughts on this? Yours, James D. Gray "What bell tolls for those who die as cattle? Only the monstrous anger of the guns." ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 661 *********************