WWI Digest 630 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Battleship Grey by "Bill Ciciora" 2) Re: Latest tirade by The Shannons 3) Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel by "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." 4) RE: Latest tirade by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 5) vacation time by Pedro Soares 6) Re: Latest tirade by Sandy Adam 7) RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" by Sandy Adam 8) Re: Unphotographed Subjects (was Latest tirade) by mbittner@juno.com 9) Re: Battleship Grey by mbittner@juno.com 10) Re: Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel by mbittner@juno.com 11) Re: Latest tirade by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 12) RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" by "Denest, Michael J" 13) RE: Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel by "Denest, Michael J" 14) RE: Latest tirade by "Denest, Michael J" 15) Re: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" by TPTPUMPER@aol.com 16) RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" by David Folosy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:11:57 -0500 From: "Bill Ciciora" To: Subject: Battleship Grey Message-ID: Does anyone have an approximate FS equivalent to 'battleship grey' as used on RFC/RAF aircraft? I am not a member of the color police, I swear! ;-) Bill C. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:28:38 -0500 From: The Shannons To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest tirade Message-ID: <33E00666.4A1@ix.netcom.com> Shane Weier wrote: > > Hi Shane, > > >You're absolutely right about memory being fragile. But I would rather > >base a 60 or 70 hour project on that, than on a someone's guess of a color > >in a black and white photo on unknown film stock. > >I'm not saying you don't have a good point, just that the odds would be in > >favor of the person that saw it. > >Another point to bring up is the level of research put into a project. > >I've found that when compared to the information in publications such as > >Windsock Datafiles, there are many fewer blatant mistakes in Imrie's work. > >This is just an observation, not an indictment of the Datafile series. > > I have no argument with any of this, and in particular agree that Imrie > is probably the most highly regarded "expert" on this subject (though in > fact I find Peter Grosz is even more convincing because he *won't* > speculate). > > Given my suspicion of colour analysis from B&W photographs, I agree that > eye witness accounts may be more accurate, but prefer those made at the > time and recorded at the time over later interviews. And I still > contend that an eye witness view, recorded 60 years later is only > "proof" of the "balance of probabilities" type, not infallible, nor > irrefutable. > > Shane -- The big problem I have with the yellow cowl is the white face. It would not have been a very prominent marking in white against yellow. That said, it would also fit with the description that Imrie uses that it was from the oriental kites and refered to his father's cloth import business. My comeuppance case is the business of the triplanes having the upper surfaces in olive green streaks on natural linen instead of blue after the first twenty or so. I hate having inaccurate markings on my models, but both of my triplanes were done before this came up on the list (not counting the archival discussions) in my knowledge. On the previous threads under this topic, I was hoping that this group would be able to avoid all the panel line debates. I don't care if they are etched, five inches wide, or not, the photos indicate that you can see panel differences in the real thing, and that's what I try for. As for personal markings, I think I'd like to do my Pfalz in deep blue and silver chevrons on the wings and horizontal stabs, blue and black nose and tail on a silver doped fuselage. -- This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon at Shingend@ix.netcom.com History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." To: wwi Subject: Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel Message-ID: <199707310426.VAA26409@olympus.net> At 06:41 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >JimAlley@aol.com wrote: >> >> What do people think of this idea: someone might be serious about >> modelling a non-existent or unknown aircraft. For instance, a plane for >> which there are no photographs (or no clear photos) or documentation. >> Surely many of these exist, >> Along these lines..... I wonder how Jasta 23b's Sopwith Camel was painted. Jasta 23b's commander, Otto Kissenberth, actually flew a captured ex-3 Naval Sopwith Camel in combat and scored his last victory (over an SE5a) in it on 16 May 1918. The Camel, obviously suffering from extreme guilt, committed suicide by crashing on 29 May 1918 and injured Kissenberth so that he had to retire from combat flying. The distinguishing features of Jasta 23b's markings are described in "Jasta Pilots" as black and white vertical bands. "Above The Lines" gives Kissenberth's personal markings as a "white and yellow Edelweiss on the fuselage". I would hope that the Camel's markings were obviously German. Keeping the Camel in PC 10 and roundels would not have been very "sporting". Are there any other examples of captured aircraft in WW I actually being used in combat by their captors? Fernando Lamas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:51:48 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: RE: Latest tirade Message-ID: <199707310451.AA00143@ednet1.orednet.org> Sandy diligently typed: > >On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, David Folosy wrote: > >..... >> later that the latest research has shown it to be wrong (e.g. the yellow = >> nose of Voss's Triplane has lately become accepted as the true colour, = >> not olive green as we had been long led to believe.)? > >Thanks for reminding me to ask our friends for their opinions on this, >David. > >Do we all really believe that Voss's cowling was yellow? I know it looks >much better on a model and I know that arguments can be fired up about >ortho film. >But I've got plenty of pictures of known yellow bits on planes that look >pale - therefor not all film is either ortho or whatever else would yellow >look dark. >Given the number of different pictures of Voss's Tripe, surely we don't >think they were all taken by he same camera - and surely some were taken >without orthochromatic film. -But it always looks dark - as far as I know. > >If there is definitive proof on this, please enlighten me as I will be >starting a DML Tripe soon and would like to do the Voss conversion but >while preferring the idea of yellow, I can't convince myself against the >above. > >Opinions? Well, I suppose I oughta wade in with my two cents worth on this 'un. (where angels fear to tread, eh?) Imrie, of course, ID's the cowling color as yellow, based presumably on the testimony of Karl Timm, Voss's mechanic, and the fact that Jasta 10's Pfalz's and Albatrosses routinely sported yellow noises. Far be it from me to question Imrie but I remain skeptical for many reasons. Let me mention just a couple. First, it is important to note that while F.I 103/17 was -attached- to Jasta 10, it was not -assigned- to Jasta 10 or formally a part of Jasta 10's assigned aircraft. Jasta 10 was just "borrowing" the aircraft, as it were, for testing and evaluation purposes. 103/17 was NEVER an official Jasta 10 aircraft! This makes it somewhat unlikely that it would have actually been painted with Jasta 10 markings. Secondly, I don't place a -lot- of credence in Timm's 60 year-old recollections. After all, _almost_ all Jasta 10 aircraft sported yellow noses which could easily lead Timm, 60 years after the fact, to the conclusion that _all_ Jasta 10-operated aircraft, including 103/17 sported yellow noses. And finally, there is the matter of the British incident report on the investigation of the wreckage of Voss's triplane, as quoted in the Albatros Publications "Aces and Aeroplanes #1 - Werner Voss": "Subject: Fokker triplane which was shot down by a flight of SE5s. Total wreck. Number 103/17. Date __ September, 1917. "Little of the machine is intact to enable a fully detailed description at this time but the following points are worthy of note. This machine is one of the new triplane "Scouts' which have been reported active in the sector during the past four weeks. The fuselage is tubing covered by fabric whilst the wings are of wood, fabric covered. The Le Rhone engine is covered with a cowling, or rather partly covered as the cowl is not a full one, possibly to assist cooling as there are two holes in the front/top of the same. The machine features a new attempt by the enemy at camouflage. The entire upper and side surfaces are doped in various shades of green, blue, and grey which take the form of streaks applied at various angles - vertical on the fuselage and slanted on the tail. The upper and second wing have not be salved but the streaks on the bottom wing are just off the vertical, slanting slightly to the left. Lower surfaces are greyish blue. Upper surface dope is of poor quality but the fabric is good." Now with that rather complete (and remarkably accurate) description of the aircraft, I find it difficult to believe that Lt. Barfoot- Saunt omitted the mention of a yellow cowling if, in fact, the aircraft actually had a yellow cowling. Most of my other points have been covered in previous posts but I think my bottom line on the yellow cowling for 103/17 is "not yet proven". Cheers, -- - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - - Cave ab homine unius libri! - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:38:37 +0200 From: Pedro Soares To: wwi Subject: vacation time Message-ID: <33E040FD.27F0@anaep.pt> Hi guys Going to unsubcribe now - hope i do it right :-) - Sure will be missing you next 3 weeks, but it's time to take my home gang in our yearly camping trip. Asturias, here we come... Have fun Fernando, I'll be camping for a couple of days at Ribadeo. I'll have a pint for you there. It's a promise. Unha aperta Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:17:40 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Latest tirade Message-ID: >.... > Alex Imrie's book on the Fokker triplane stated that the Voss tripe had the > cowling painted chrome yellow, the identifying color of Jasta 10. > > Jim Pliml > Thanks Jim, yes I have this book, but I could not remeber actually seeing it stated that Timm said this. Is there a reference somewhere else where AI give's Timm's words? Maybe I'm just missing it in the book but I can only find photo 24 on page 22 where Imrie states that it was painted chrome yellow the identifying colour of Jasta 10. Now that picture shows an Albatros in a hanger in the background and yes, it is far away, in different lighting conditions, but I can easily accept that it has a yellow nose - whatever type of film was used. It looks very different in tone from the Tripe though. I am sure Timm reported accuratelt that the standard rule was a yellow nose - but did he actually say that the Voss Tripe had one too? Where is this reported? Like others I cannot see why you would put a white face on a yellow nose - surely it would be a darker colour. I was aware of Imrie's hypothesis, but are there any other cross-refs to this? Sorry to carry this on - but I would like to do Voss' machine again. (Last effort was an Aurora one some years ago - Olive nose - but if I could convince myself of the yellow theory it would certainly be more colourful - especially since the rest of photo 24 is the same tone and I could do all the streaks in yellow too!!!) Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:28:10 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Patrick Padovan wrote: > Dear Sandy: Just curious: have you actually read "The Blue Max"? The > phrase painted on the protagonist's wing is never stated. I've always > assumed it was indeed the phrase you suggested, or something very > similar. It's actually quite well researched and well written, imho. Of > course, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, absolutely. I just > wondered if you've read it? Yes, and whilst I would agree that the book is much better than the movie - much less gauche - at least in the movie you can ignore the dreadful two-dimensional characters and enjoy the wallpaper covered aeroplanes. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:02:41 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Unphotographed Subjects (was Latest tirade) Message-ID: <19970731.051437.8910.3.mbittner@juno.com> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:39:30 -0400 "Bill Ciciora" writes: > I have a few of those in my collection. I think it's necessary, > lest we all make models of the same aircraft and lose variety. > My favorite is a Smer N.11 as a Kiffin Rockwell machine, based > on a painting from an old AW&ST calendar. Anyway you can describe how the artwork is done? Or maybe scan it? I'm very curious. TIA! Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:05:51 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Battleship Grey Message-ID: <19970731.051437.8910.5.mbittner@juno.com> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:15:59 -0400 "Bill Ciciora" writes: > Does anyone have an approximate FS equivalent to 'battleship > grey' as used on RFC/RAF aircraft? I am not a member of the > color police, I swear! ;-) I have the color chips from Replicraft for a "panel grey". Its Methuen number is in the range 1B1-1C1. I will take a good look at it tonight, and try to match it to some FS number. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:14:32 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel Message-ID: <19970731.051437.8910.6.mbittner@juno.com> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:29:29 -0400 "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." writes: > I wonder how Jasta 23b's Sopwith Camel was painted. Jasta 23b's > commander, Otto Kissenberth, actually flew a captured ex-3 Naval > Sopwith Camel in combat and scored his last victory (over an > SE5a) in it on 16 May 1918. The Camel, obviously suffering from > extreme guilt, committed suicide by crashing on 29 May 1918 and > injured Kissenberth so that he had to retire from combat > flying. According to the Blue Rider sheet: "Repainted in the markings of this unit, but retaining the RNAS eagle, Kissenberth scored his 19th victory in this machine (an SE5a at Tilloy on 16 May 1918). Subsequently, on 26 May, this Camel's engine failed, putting Kissenberth into hospital for the remainder of the war. This aircraft appears to have retained its RNAS colours of PC10 and Clear Doped Linen, with the addition of the Jasta 23b's Black and white scheme on the rear fuselage annd tail surfaces. The front colwing was Blue. Engine panels were Natural Metal. Panels around the cockpit were Varnished Wood." Spelling erros are mine, with the exception of "colour". :-) > The distinguishing features of Jasta 23b's markings are > described in "Jasta Pilots" as black and white vertical bands. > "Above The Lines" gives Kissenberth's personal markings as a > "white and yellow Edelweiss on the fuselage". I would hope that > the Camel's markings were obviously German. Keeping the Camel > in PC 10 and roundels would not have been very "sporting". Sorry, no Edelweiss. Crosses were on the rear fuselage, rudder and outer wing tips. > Are there any other examples of captured aircraft in WW I > actually being used in combat by their captors? A few in German service. There was an article in Windsock Vol 7 No 6 which the Blue Rider decals were taken from (the sheet number is BR227). I have the 1/72nd sheet (naturally) but am unsure if they're out in 1/48th. HTH. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:13:23 -0500 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: Latest tirade Message-ID: <19970731121327.AAA29679@default> If the aircraft was left free of unit markings, then explain how the well documented face on the cowl would be acceptable on an airframe classified as only "borrowed"........... I agree that there is a possibility for question, but I'm much more inclined to believe a witness than those who weren't there. Paul H. ---------- > From: Bill Shatzer > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: RE: Latest tirade > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:58 PM > > > > Sandy diligently typed: > > > >On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, David Folosy wrote: > > > >..... > >> later that the latest research has shown it to be wrong (e.g. the yellow = > >> nose of Voss's Triplane has lately become accepted as the true colour, = > >> not olive green as we had been long led to believe.)? > > > >Thanks for reminding me to ask our friends for their opinions on this, > >David. > > > >Do we all really believe that Voss's cowling was yellow? I know it looks > >much better on a model and I know that arguments can be fired up about > >ortho film. > >But I've got plenty of pictures of known yellow bits on planes that look > >pale - therefor not all film is either ortho or whatever else would yellow > >look dark. > >Given the number of different pictures of Voss's Tripe, surely we don't > >think they were all taken by he same camera - and surely some were taken > >without orthochromatic film. -But it always looks dark - as far as I know. > > > >If there is definitive proof on this, please enlighten me as I will be > >starting a DML Tripe soon and would like to do the Voss conversion but > >while preferring the idea of yellow, I can't convince myself against the > >above. > > > >Opinions? > > Well, I suppose I oughta wade in with my two cents worth on this 'un. > (where angels fear to tread, eh?) > > Imrie, of course, ID's the cowling color as yellow, based presumably > on the testimony of Karl Timm, Voss's mechanic, and the fact that > Jasta 10's Pfalz's and Albatrosses routinely sported yellow noises. > > Far be it from me to question Imrie but I remain skeptical for many > reasons. Let me mention just a couple. > > First, it is important to note that while F.I 103/17 was -attached- > to Jasta 10, it was not -assigned- to Jasta 10 or formally a part > of Jasta 10's assigned aircraft. Jasta 10 was just "borrowing" the > aircraft, as it were, for testing and evaluation purposes. > 103/17 was NEVER an official Jasta 10 aircraft! > > This makes it somewhat unlikely that it would have actually been > painted with Jasta 10 markings. > > Secondly, I don't place a -lot- of credence in Timm's 60 year-old > recollections. After all, _almost_ all Jasta 10 aircraft sported > yellow noses which could easily lead Timm, 60 years after the fact, > to the conclusion that _all_ Jasta 10-operated aircraft, including 103/17 > sported yellow noses. > > And finally, there is the matter of the British incident report on > the investigation of the wreckage of Voss's triplane, as quoted > in the Albatros Publications "Aces and Aeroplanes #1 - Werner > Voss": > > "Subject: Fokker triplane which was shot down by a flight of SE5s. > Total wreck. Number 103/17. Date __ September, 1917. > > "Little of the machine is intact to enable a fully detailed description > at this time but the following points are worthy of note. This machine > is one of the new triplane "Scouts' which have been reported active > in the sector during the past four weeks. The fuselage is tubing > covered by fabric whilst the wings are of wood, fabric covered. The > Le Rhone engine is covered with a cowling, or rather partly covered > as the cowl is not a full one, possibly to assist cooling as there > are two holes in the front/top of the same. The machine features a > new attempt by the enemy at camouflage. The entire upper and side > surfaces are doped in various shades of green, blue, and grey which > take the form of streaks applied at various angles - vertical on the > fuselage and slanted on the tail. The upper and second wing have > not be salved but the streaks on the bottom wing are just off the > vertical, slanting slightly to the left. Lower surfaces are greyish > blue. Upper surface dope is of poor quality but the fabric is good." > > Now with that rather complete (and remarkably accurate) description > of the aircraft, I find it difficult to believe that Lt. Barfoot- > Saunt omitted the mention of a yellow cowling if, in fact, the > aircraft actually had a yellow cowling. > > Most of my other points have been covered in previous posts but > I think my bottom line on the yellow cowling for 103/17 is > "not yet proven". > > Cheers, > > -- > - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - > > - Cave ab homine unius libri! - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:06:57 -0400 From: "Denest, Michael J" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" Message-ID: Recalling the book, I remember Stachel handing one of the mechanics a piece of paper where he had written the phrase. The writer, Jack Hunter, roughly described the phrase as two words, the first having four letters and the second having three letters. Stachel ordered the mechanic to paint the phrase large enough to stretch from the leading edge to the trailing edge. I agree on the movie. The airplanes were good, the characters and the story line very shallow. The book does an excellent job of characterization and plot. By the time you have finished, you feel like you know these people. I think it's time for another reading. Mike Denest D&SG Helicopters Division Rapid Prototyping Center Building 3-29 Phone 1-610-591-4681 Fax 1-610-591-4444 e-mail to: michael.denest@PHL.boeing.com >---------- >From: Sandy Adam[SMTP:sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk] >Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 5:31 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" > > > >On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Patrick Padovan wrote: > >> Dear Sandy: Just curious: have you actually read "The Blue Max"? The >> phrase painted on the protagonist's wing is never stated. I've always >> assumed it was indeed the phrase you suggested, or something very >> similar. It's actually quite well researched and well written, imho. Of >> course, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, absolutely. I just >> wondered if you've read it? > >Yes, and whilst I would agree that the book is much better than the movie >- much less gauche - at least in the movie you can ignore the dreadful >two-dimensional characters and enjoy the wallpaper covered aeroplanes. >Sandy > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:11:57 -0400 From: "Denest, Michael J" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel Message-ID: An old copy of a Profile Publication on the Nieuport 17 has a picture of a captured machine that looks to be all silver with crosses. Mike Denest D&SG Helicopters Division Rapid Prototyping Center Building 3-29 Phone 1-610-591-4681 Fax 1-610-591-4444 e-mail to: michael.denest@PHL.boeing.com >---------- >From: mbittner@juno.com[SMTP:mbittner@juno.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 6:12 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Jasta 23b Sopwith Camel > >On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:29:29 -0400 "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." > writes: > >> I wonder how Jasta 23b's Sopwith Camel was painted. Jasta 23b's >> commander, Otto Kissenberth, actually flew a captured ex-3 Naval >> Sopwith Camel in combat and scored his last victory (over an >> SE5a) in it on 16 May 1918. The Camel, obviously suffering from >> extreme guilt, committed suicide by crashing on 29 May 1918 and >> injured Kissenberth so that he had to retire from combat >> flying. > >According to the Blue Rider sheet: > >"Repainted in the markings of this unit, but retaining the RNAS >eagle, Kissenberth scored his 19th victory in this machine (an >SE5a at Tilloy on 16 May 1918). Subsequently, on 26 May, this >Camel's engine failed, putting Kissenberth into hospital for the >remainder of the war. This aircraft appears to have retained its >RNAS colours of PC10 and Clear Doped Linen, with the addition of >the Jasta 23b's Black and white scheme on the rear fuselage annd >tail surfaces. The front colwing was Blue. Engine panels were >Natural Metal. Panels around the cockpit were Varnished Wood." > >Spelling erros are mine, with the exception of "colour". :-) > >> The distinguishing features of Jasta 23b's markings are >> described in "Jasta Pilots" as black and white vertical bands. >> "Above The Lines" gives Kissenberth's personal markings as a >> "white and yellow Edelweiss on the fuselage". I would hope that >> the Camel's markings were obviously German. Keeping the Camel >> in PC 10 and roundels would not have been very "sporting". > >Sorry, no Edelweiss. Crosses were on the rear fuselage, rudder >and outer wing tips. > >> Are there any other examples of captured aircraft in WW I >> actually being used in combat by their captors? > >A few in German service. There was an article in Windsock Vol 7 >No 6 which the Blue Rider decals were taken from (the sheet >number is BR227). I have the 1/72nd sheet (naturally) but am >unsure if they're out in 1/48th. HTH. > > >Matt >mbittner@juno.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:14:41 -0400 From: "Denest, Michael J" To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Latest tirade Message-ID: There is a Bjorn Karlstrom drawing that shows the cowl as yellow. Mike Denest D&SG Helicopters Division Rapid Prototyping Center Building 3-29 Phone 1-610-591-4681 Fax 1-610-591-4444 e-mail to: michael.denest@PHL.boeing.com >---------- >From: phoward@abilene.com[SMTP:phoward@abilene.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 8:17 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Latest tirade > >If the aircraft was left free of unit markings, then explain how the well >documented face on the cowl would be acceptable on an airframe classified >as only "borrowed"........... > >I agree that there is a possibility for question, but I'm much more >inclined to believe a witness than those who weren't there. > >Paul H. > >---------- >> From: Bill Shatzer >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: RE: Latest tirade >> Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:58 PM >> >> >> >> Sandy diligently typed: >> > >> >On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, David Folosy wrote: >> > >> >..... >> >> later that the latest research has shown it to be wrong (e.g. the >yellow = >> >> nose of Voss's Triplane has lately become accepted as the true colour, >= >> >> not olive green as we had been long led to believe.)? >> > >> >Thanks for reminding me to ask our friends for their opinions on this, >> >David. >> > >> >Do we all really believe that Voss's cowling was yellow? I know it looks >> >much better on a model and I know that arguments can be fired up about >> >ortho film. >> >But I've got plenty of pictures of known yellow bits on planes that look >> >pale - therefor not all film is either ortho or whatever else would >yellow >> >look dark. >> >Given the number of different pictures of Voss's Tripe, surely we don't >> >think they were all taken by he same camera - and surely some were taken >> >without orthochromatic film. -But it always looks dark - as far as I >know. >> > >> >If there is definitive proof on this, please enlighten me as I will be >> >starting a DML Tripe soon and would like to do the Voss conversion but >> >while preferring the idea of yellow, I can't convince myself against the >> >above. >> > >> >Opinions? >> >> Well, I suppose I oughta wade in with my two cents worth on this 'un. >> (where angels fear to tread, eh?) >> >> Imrie, of course, ID's the cowling color as yellow, based presumably >> on the testimony of Karl Timm, Voss's mechanic, and the fact that >> Jasta 10's Pfalz's and Albatrosses routinely sported yellow noises. >> >> Far be it from me to question Imrie but I remain skeptical for many >> reasons. Let me mention just a couple. >> >> First, it is important to note that while F.I 103/17 was -attached- >> to Jasta 10, it was not -assigned- to Jasta 10 or formally a part >> of Jasta 10's assigned aircraft. Jasta 10 was just "borrowing" the >> aircraft, as it were, for testing and evaluation purposes. >> 103/17 was NEVER an official Jasta 10 aircraft! >> >> This makes it somewhat unlikely that it would have actually been >> painted with Jasta 10 markings. >> >> Secondly, I don't place a -lot- of credence in Timm's 60 year-old >> recollections. After all, _almost_ all Jasta 10 aircraft sported >> yellow noses which could easily lead Timm, 60 years after the fact, >> to the conclusion that _all_ Jasta 10-operated aircraft, including 103/17 >> sported yellow noses. >> >> And finally, there is the matter of the British incident report on >> the investigation of the wreckage of Voss's triplane, as quoted >> in the Albatros Publications "Aces and Aeroplanes #1 - Werner >> Voss": >> >> "Subject: Fokker triplane which was shot down by a flight of SE5s. >> Total wreck. Number 103/17. Date __ September, 1917. >> >> "Little of the machine is intact to enable a fully detailed description >> at this time but the following points are worthy of note. This machine >> is one of the new triplane "Scouts' which have been reported active >> in the sector during the past four weeks. The fuselage is tubing >> covered by fabric whilst the wings are of wood, fabric covered. The >> Le Rhone engine is covered with a cowling, or rather partly covered >> as the cowl is not a full one, possibly to assist cooling as there >> are two holes in the front/top of the same. The machine features a >> new attempt by the enemy at camouflage. The entire upper and side >> surfaces are doped in various shades of green, blue, and grey which >> take the form of streaks applied at various angles - vertical on the >> fuselage and slanted on the tail. The upper and second wing have >> not be salved but the streaks on the bottom wing are just off the >> vertical, slanting slightly to the left. Lower surfaces are greyish >> blue. Upper surface dope is of poor quality but the fabric is good." >> >> Now with that rather complete (and remarkably accurate) description >> of the aircraft, I find it difficult to believe that Lt. Barfoot- >> Saunt omitted the mention of a yellow cowling if, in fact, the >> aircraft actually had a yellow cowling. >> >> Most of my other points have been covered in previous posts but >> I think my bottom line on the yellow cowling for 103/17 is >> "not yet proven". >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - >> >> - Cave ab homine unius libri! - > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:22:17 -0400 (EDT) From: TPTPUMPER@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" Message-ID: <970731092215_412468254@emout08.mail.aol.com> Hi Gang! FWIW, I remember when The Blue Max first came to TV, on ABC, in two installments. I had to clear TV time with my parents to see those fascinating WWI aeroplanes. I was 9 ot 10 and had just caught a bad case of the WWI bug from reading parts of Rickenbacker's "autobiography" (ghost written, of course) in dad's TRUE magazine. The movie was great then, okay now. The book wasn't great, but it was an interesting read, a break from studying WWI. Have Fun!! IRA Campbell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:08:19 +0800 From: David Folosy To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" Message-ID: <01BC9E05.F9712C20@user9.argo.net.au> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9E05.F992BDE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good on yer, Mike! Agree with what you've said. I've just read the book = again (last time was at least 15 years ago) and it really is quite well = written, IMHO. The characters are not simple stereotypes and the = descriptions of air battle are terrific. I do think it is unfair to compare the film to the book. It's still a = very good film in its genre. When has a film ever been as good as a book = on which it was based, anyway? George Peppard fitted the alcoholic, = egotistical Stachel character beautifully. Anyway, for me. like some = others on the list, it is a sentimental favorite because it inspired my = interest in WW1 when I was but a wee lad at school.=20 Cheers David S -----Original Message----- From: Denest, Michael J [SMTP:Michael.Denest@PHL.Boeing.com] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 9:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" Recalling the book, I remember Stachel handing one of the mechanics a piece of paper where he had written the phrase. The writer, Jack Hunter, roughly described the phrase as two words, the first having four letters and the second having three letters. Stachel ordered the mechanic to paint the phrase large enough to stretch from the leading edge to the trailing edge. I agree on the movie. The airplanes were good, the characters and the story line very shallow. The book does an excellent job of characterization and plot. By the time you have finished, you feel like you know these people. I think it's time for another reading. =20 Mike Denest D&SG Helicopters Division Rapid Prototyping Center Building 3-29 Phone 1-610-591-4681 Fax 1-610-591-4444 e-mail to: michael.denest@PHL.boeing.com >---------- >From: Sandy Adam[SMTP:sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk] >Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 5:31 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: Latest tirade: Sandy/ "The Blue Max" > > > >On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Patrick Padovan wrote: > >> Dear Sandy: Just curious: have you actually read "The Blue Max"? = The >> phrase painted on the protagonist's wing is never stated. I've always = =20 >> assumed it was indeed the phrase you suggested, or something very=20 >> similar. It's actually quite well researched and well written, imho. = Of >> course, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, absolutely. I just >> wondered if you've read it? > >Yes, and whilst I would agree that the book is much better than the = movie >- much less gauche - at least in the movie you can ignore the dreadful >two-dimensional characters and enjoy the wallpaper covered aeroplanes.=20 >Sandy > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9E05.F992BDE0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiQPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAsAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3Iu dW5oLmVkdQBTTVRQAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3IudW5oLmVkdQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAFgAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3IudW5oLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEw AQAAABgAAAAnd3dpQHBlYXNlMS5zci51bmguZWR1JwACAQswAQAAABsAAABTTVRQOldXSUBQRUFT RTEuU1IuVU5ILkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAFgAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEuc3Iu dW5oLmVkdQAAAAIB918BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHd3aUBwZWFzZTEu 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